Author Topic: Axis Non-German Troops  (Read 18177 times)

Offline shalar

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Axis Non-German Troops
« on: February 17, 2010, 02:21:20 AM »
I will suggest the fact that the Ostheer by historical reasons MUST incorporate in some way the option to call axis non-german troops as happened in the real conflict. There MUST be some Hungarian, Romanian, Italian, Bulgarian and being polite also Spanish reinforcements in the field for the germans. Maybe a specific branch for that could be an option, but a simple free squad with countdown could be also interesting.

Hungarian, Bulgarian and Romanian troops where the main reason of the defeat in Stalingrad. They can not reject the soviet offensive and the Paulus army was sorrounded.

Relatively to the spaniards there you have historical references:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division

This kind of units I propose to be delivered in the field with a countdown ( like 10 mins or other balanced timing) not consuming resources and population must be weak to balance and as well to be accurate with the facts happened in the east front.

This units could be for example in a first development degree a weak spanish blue division unit equiparable at the wermacht volksgranadiers, then developing the branch or just only by using this hability once it could change the nationality of the "free reinforcement" and call a stronger (in each level or use) squad. For the most of uses/brench development I will suggest for example a Romanian elite division being strong as like a wehermacht granadiers squad.

For example I use Blue division: Appears a volksgranadiers like unit supposed to be spanish fascist volunteers. The skill can not be used until a time or other way until a new branch development.

Then when time passed or branch developed I can use the skill again and a squad of granadiers like unit appears as Rumanian reinforcements.

This way the idea can be incorporated and the programmers can balance and decide wich nationality and strenght of the unit appearing each time.

This concept must have a low impact in the core balance of the game as we call only one squad in the battlefield each time/use and the power of the squad as I said, can be nerfed to not have a strong impact in the game.

This can ensure that balance is not compromised and depth in realism for the mod* will rise a lot for all the people like me who like to play a ww2 game as realistic as possible.

*mod is not an accurate word for your work as I consider you might arrange any kind of agreement with THQ and make a lot of money with this nex full expansion you designed. Congratulations. I'm one of the bastards who will be disposed to BUY a copy of that superb work.

Thanks for reading my suggestion, excuse my bad english and community please, be magnanimous with your criticism on my idea.

Offline PSIHOPAT

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2010, 02:41:32 AM »
For obvious reasons i like this idea.

Advantage will be more variety for Ostheer,and will represent historical facts from Eastern front.

The war on the Eastern Front

On June 22, 1941, Germany launched Operation Barbarossa, attacking the Soviet Union on a wide front. Romania joined in the offensive, with Romanian troops crossing the River Prut. After recovering Bessarabia and Bukovina (Operation München), Romanian units fought side by side with the Germans onward to Odessa, Sevastopol, and Stalingrad. The Romanian contribution of troops was enormous. The total number of troops involved in the Romanian Third Army and the Romanian Fourth Army was second only to Nazi Germany itself. The Romanian Army had a total of 686,258 men under arms in the summer of 1941 and a total of 1,224,691 men in arms in the summer of 1944.[3] The number of Romanian troops sent to fight in Russia exceeded that of all of Germany's other allies combined.

Romania instituted a civil government in occupied Soviet lands immediately east of the Dniester. After the Battle of Odessa, this included the city of Odessa. The Romanian armies advanced far into the Soviet Union during 1941 and 1942 before being involved in the disaster at the Battle of Stalingrad in the winter of 1942-1943.

Romania's most important general, Petre Dumitrescu, was commander of the Romanian Third Army at Stalingrad. In November 1942, the German Sixth Army was briefly put at Dumitrescu's disposal during a German attempt to relieve the Romanian Third Army following a devastating Soviet offensive.

In September 1942, the Romanian Third Army and the Romanian Fourth Army started to take up their positions around Stalingrad together with the first elements of the Romanian Air Corps: on September 16, the 7th Fighter Group, on September 25, the 5th Bomber Group and, on October 4, the 1st Bomber, 8th Fighter, 6 Fighter-Bomber and 3rd Bomber Group arrived with the mission of providing air support for the 3rd Romanian and 6th German Armies.

The Romanian Third Army, commanded by General Petre Dumitrescu, was transferred from the Caucasus and replaced 5 Italian and 2 German divisions, between Blij Perekopa and Bokovkaya with the task of defending a front 138 km long, way beyond its possibilities. To make things worse, the Soviets had two bridgeheads over the Don River at Serafimovich and Kletskaya, which The German High Command ignored despite repeated requests by General Dumitrescu to be allowed to eliminate them. At the start of the Soviet offensive in November 1942, the 3rd Army had a nominal strength of 152,492 Romanian troops and 11,211 German troops, being made up from 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Corps in a single echelon (1st Cavalry, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th and 14th Infantry Divisions) from West to East, with 7th Cavalry and 15th Infantry Divisions in reserve. The Long Range Recon (DO-17M) and the 112th Liaison Squadrons (Fleet 10G) were also at its disposal. In November came the German 48th Corps composed of the 22nd German Panzer Division and the 1st Romanian Armored Division, which also was put in reserve. It also had the 2nd, 4th, 5th and 8th Motorized Heavy Artillery Regiments and the 41st Independent Motorized Heavy Artillery Battalion. Opposite the 3rd Army was the Soviet Southwestern Front (1st Guard Army, 5th Tank Army and 21st Army), with a staggering force of 5,888 artillery pieces, 728 tanks and 790 planes.

The Romanian Fourth Army, commanded by General Constantin Constantinescu, having a nominal strength of 75,580 men, occupied a line south of the city, between Straya Otrada and Sarpa. It comprised the 6th and 7th Corps (1st, 2nd, 4th, 18th, 20th Infantry Divisions and the 5th and 8th Cavalry Divisions).The Romanian Air Corps put at its disposal the 15th, 16th, 17th Observation (IAR 39) and the 114th Liaison Squadrons (Fleet 10G) covering a front of 270 km long. Thus the 18th Cavalry covered a line of 100 km. The reserve were the 6th Roşiori Regiment, the 27th, 57th Pioneer Battalions and the 57th Recon Group. Also, the Fourth Panzer Army had in the area the 29th Motorized Infantry Division. This army was supposed to check the advance of the Stalingrad Front (51st, 62nd, 63rd and 57th Armies), which possessed 4,931 artillery pieces and 455 tanks.

In the North

On 19 November at 0530, in the sector of the 3rd Romanian Army, violent artillery barrages battered the entire front-line. The weather conditions were harsh: blizzard, snowing, -20 degrees Celsius, which made close air support impossible. The Soviets assaulted the positions of the 14th Infantry Division with the 5th Tank Army and the junction between the 13th Infantry Division and the 1st Cavalry Division with the 21st Army, with a total of 338,631 men against 3 weak divisions. The 37mm and 47mm AT guns were useless against Soviet tanks so the Romanian troops had to use grenades, anti-tank mines and Molotov cocktails. In the first hours they managed to delay the advance and destroy some armor, but later they had to retreat or be encircled. The Soviets also attacked west of Sarisa Valley and at Raspopinskaya but were repulsed. In response to the situation developed south of Kletskaya, the 48th Armored Corps was ordered to move towards the Soviet main thrust and shortly afterwards, the 22nd Panzer Division was redirected to northwest, towards Bolsoy and, reaching Petshany it engaged Soviet armor. By evening, the 1st Romanian Armored Division reached Sirkovsky, making preparations to attack Bolsoy the next day. In the first day of the offensive, the Soviet forces succeeded in making two breaches in the defence disposition ot the 3rd Romanian Army: one in the center, 16–18 km wide and 15 km deep and one in the right wing, between the 3rd Romanian Army and the 6th German Army, 10–12 km wide and 35–40 km deep.

On 20 November, the Soviet armored and motorized forces advanced towards Kalach, with the intention of encircling the 6th German Army fighting at Stalingrad. The 22nd Panzer Division, overwhelmed at Petshany by the large number of Soviet tanks, withdrew north to Bol. Donschynka. The 1st Romanian Armored Division, without any available radio contact, tried to advance to Petshany in order to make the junction with the 22nd Panzer Division, but was forced to stop a few kilometers West of Korotovsky by stiff Soviet resistance and numerous counterattacks with the Soviet tanks, flowing between the German 22nd and the Romanian 1st, occupying the Varlamovsky and Peralasovsky villages and making the junction with forces coming from Gromsky, thus encircling the 5th Corps. In the 4th Corps' sector, 40 Soviet tanks attacked the 15th Infantry Division but were repulsed by evening with heavy loses. Meanwhile, the 7th Cavalry Division unsuccessfully tried to block the enemy's advance, the right wing of the division, which had fully received the blow, was retreating south while the left wing was reassigned to the 9th Infantry Division. Also, the 1st Cavalry Division had to retreat towards Stalingrad and was subordinated to the 6th Army. At the end of the day, the defence position of the 3rd Romanian Army had a 70 km wide gap in the centre. In this pocket were encircled the 1st Armored Division, three infantry divisions (5th, 6th and 15th) and remains of other two infantry divisions (13th and 14th). The former commander of the 6th Infantry Division, Major General Mihail Lascăr, took command of the troops from the infantry divisions and formed the "General Lascăr" Group (40,000 men). At this point, the command point of the 3rd Army began moving to Morozovskaya.

On 21 November, the 22nd Panzer Division tried to advance towards Perelasovsky in order to make the junction with the 1st Armored Division and to relieve the "General Lascār" Group, but failed and was stopped the next day between Bol. Donschynka and Perelasovky. The 1st Romanian Armored Division was advancing towards Bol. Donschynka, where it was hoping to find the German Division, but the village was under Soviet control and then headed south and, after grim fighting, crossed the Chir river on the 25th.

On 22 November, the encircled "General Lascār" Group, which had been ordered to resist at any cost, was attacked and transmitted its last message. They had run out of food and each gun had only 40 rounds left and after refusing the Soviet proposal to surrender they were entirely destroyed. Only the 1st Battalion of the 15 Infantry Regiment (6th infantry Division) had succeeded in getting to the river Chir with all its soldiers and equipment commanded by Major Gheorghe Rasconescu. His battalion had managed to prevent the Soviet 8th Cavalry Division from capturing the vital German airfield at Oblivkaya from 26 November to 3 December.

On 23 November, the Soviet troops of the South-Western Front and of the Stalingrad Front met at Kalach-na-Donu, completing the encirclement of the German 6th Army, parts of the 4th Army and 6 other Romanian infantry divisions and one cavalry division.

In the South

On 20 November, the 4th Romanian Army's positions were attacked by the Soviet 57th and 51st Armies, with the main blow in the sector of the 20th, 2nd, 18th and 1st Infantry Divisions. The 57th Army attacked towards Sovetsky in the North-East and the 51st Army towards Kotelnikovsky in the south. The front was broken at the junction of the 2nd and 20th Infantry Divisions and at the junction ot the 1st and 18th Infantry Divisions. The Soviets advanced fast into the breaches created by the first wave, pushing the 13th Tank Corps towards Saty, the Soviet 4th Mechanized Corps towards Plodovitoyeand and, later, the 4th Cavalry Corps towards Abganerovo. By evening, the 1st and 2nd Infantry Divisions were virtually destroyed and the 18th Infantry Division was in danger of encirclement. Also, the link with the 20th Infantry Division was interrupted. Despite the stubborn resistance put up by the 91st Infantry Regiment and the 20th Pioneer Battalion, the Soviets broke through Tundutovo and Ivanovka, getting behind the division's position and, within an hour, most of the Romanian soldiers were either dead or captured.

On 21 November, the 57th Army advanced towards Sovetsky (17 km southeast of Kalach) to meet the forces of the South Western Front and encircled the German forces at Stalingrad, while the 51st Army advanced towards Kotelnikovo, along the Kotelnikovo-Stalingrad railroad. The 6th Corps tried to resist while the "Korne" Detachment(3rd, 4th Cavalry Regiments, 2nd Artillery Battalion and the 7th Heavy Artillery Regiment), backed by German armored units, triggered a counterattack towards Abganerovo, with the 29th German Motorized Infantry Division attacking from the northwest. The action failed due to lack of efficient anti-tank weapons.

On 22 November, the Soviets took hold of Mal. Derbety and Tundutovo and the "Korne" Detachment was attacked in the Krasnay-Geroy area, suffering heavy losses. The proposal made by the Romanian Command to fall back to better positions on the Aksay River clashed with the German Command's decision of holding firmly.

On 23 November, the deputy chief of Staff of the 4th Army demanded and received from the Romanian General Headquarters the ability to take decisions independently from the 4th Panzer Army. Subsequently, the 6th Corps fell back to the Aksay River, but to no avail as the Soviets were already controlling the communication center of Aksay. The "Korne" Detachment fell back leaving the flank of the 7th Corps uncovered. At the same time the 5th Cavalry and the 4th Infantry Divisions were attacked from the east. In order to prevent the Soviet advance between the railroad and the river Don, a new defence line, with the center at Kotelnikovo was established. In the afternoon, the Soviet troops of the Stalingrad Front met the South-Western Front troops in Sovetsky area, encircling the German forces at Stalingrad. Receiving information information about the arrival of a German detachment, the 4th Romanian Army's commander decided that the positions must be held. The 6th Corps was on the southern bank of the Aksay River, the 4th Infantry Division from Umansevo to Kotsubayev and the 5th Cavalry Division further to Perednaya Elista with the link between the two corps being provided by the "Korne" Detachment.

The end

On 24 November the Soviet activity was reduced, but the next day the Russian troops attacked towards Kotenikovo between the Don and the railroad, pushing the 4th Infantry Division southwards from the left bank of the 7th Corps.

On 26 November, the "Korne" and "Pannwitz" Detachments managed to push back the Soviet troops which had infiltrated between the two Romanian corps. On the 27th, the Soviets approaching Kotelnikovo were also repelled by counterattack of the "Paunwitz" Detachement and units of the 6th Panzer Division, which had recently arrived in preparation for the counter strike to relieve the Axis forces in Stalingrad. The soviets managed to break through the line of the 6th Corps at the 18th Infantry Division, thus forcing it to retreat on an alignment 25–30 km south of the river. The losses of the 4th Romanian Army in this operation were catastrophic: up to 80% in personnel at the 1st, 2nd and 18th Infantry divisions.

On 16 December, the Soviet Third Guards Army started Operation Little Saturn and attacked Army Group Hollidt to which was subordinated the 3rd Romanian Army, along the river Chir. On 18 December, the Soviet Sixth Army broke through the defence of the Italian 8th Army and the 18th, 24th and 25th Tank Corps penetrated deep behind Axis lines, threatening the rear of the front on the Chir.

On 22 December the banks of the river Chir were abandoned by the left wing of Army Group Hollidt as they retreated towards Morozovskaya. On 27 December, the 7th Cavalry Division started to retreat towards Bisry after 40 days of continuous fighting, but the following day, General Karl-Adolf Hollidt assigned the 11th Roşiori and 11th Cālāraşi Regiments and the 61st Recon Group the task of defending the German depots at Chernigof. The Romanian cavalrymen held the town against Soviet attacks until 2 January 1943, when they eventually retreated. They were the last Axis troops to leave the Chir line.

To the South, the remains of the 4th Army and the Romanian Air Corps were engaged in Operation Wintergewitter, which aimed to create a link with the Axis troops in Stalingrad. The main blow was going to be delivered by the German 57th Panzer Corps; on its left flank was the Romanian 6th Corps with the Romanian 7th Corps and the Cavalry Group General Popescu forming the right flank. They were stopped 50 km from Stalingrad and, on 18 December, the front held by the 8th Italian Army was broken with 7 Italian divisions and the Italian Alpine Corps being encircled.

On 24 December, the Red Army counterattacked, with 149,000 men and 635 tanks, the German 57th Panzer Corps and the Romanian 4th Army and on 29 December, the 57th Panzer had to abandon Kotelnikosky, which sealed the fate of the Axis troops in Stalingrad.

On 15 January 1943 came another devastating blow: The Hungarian 2nd Army was encircled and eventually destroyed, with 147,971 casualties.

On 2 February 1943, the resistance of Axis troops in Stalingrad ceased. Out of the 91,000 prisoners taken by the Soviets, only 3,000 were Romanian. These were the survivors of the 20th Infantry Division, 1st Cavalry Division and "Colonel Voicu" Detachement. The Romanian Army lost 158,854 men (dead, wounded and missing) between 19 November 1942 and 7 January 1943. This represented 16 of the 18 divisions engaged at Stalingrad and half of the active troops (31 divisions). The Romanian Air Corps lost 73 airplanes (26 in battle and the rest on the ground).
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 03:36:20 AM by PSIHOPAT »

Offline Tiger 131

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 04:15:29 AM »
The Spanish "Blue Division" passed through my grandfathers village in Baden. He told me they were very nice, and the town was devastated when they learnt most of them had died on the Eastern Front.

I have some photos of them I can post if anyone is interested. Always glad to chat with those with an interest in WWII.

Offline Pauly3

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2010, 06:55:25 AM »
i am sure they were nice guys (blue division)
but to volunteer for the war on the eastern front you had to be a pretty die hard facist.
anyway i would love to see foreign troops, because it would add a cool historic touch and blue division is the best example
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Offline UeArtemis

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2010, 09:15:15 AM »
We can have such faction on the Eastern Front:
  • Hungary had good non-German tanks
  • Croatia
  • Slovakia
  • Italy had interesting non-German tanks
  • Finland had captured old and new Russian tanks
  • Romania
  • Bulgaria
  • Spain
I believe in one thing only, the power of the human will. © Joseph Stalin

Offline 250.Inf. Div.

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2010, 09:39:22 AM »
the spaniards are more similar panzergrenadier than volks by the spanish have the spanish civil war experience and the officers are professional soldiers and many volunters proceed from the spanish legion(shock troopers in africa war and spanish civil war).

the finis used the pz iv and stug but the italian tanks were pure bulls.ht,compare with russinas and german tanks.

Offline South3rs

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2010, 02:22:20 PM »
Finnish winter troops, like a sniper intergrated in a 4 man team, can camo and stuff, fast moving light recon squad

Italian Alpine troops, like unsupresable heavy squad 6 man, anti tank aswell

Hungarian Light Inf: Masters against infantry in woods and camo in woods too.

Austrian Stormtroopers: Just storm troopers, re skinned, keeps people happy cos its another nation in there :p

Offline Rahvenich

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2010, 02:33:55 PM »
Austrian Stormtroopers: Just storm troopers, re skinned, keeps people happy cos its another nation in there :p
For all accounts and purposes, the Austrians were Germans during WWII.

Offline HyperSniper999

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2010, 04:49:34 PM »

Austrian Stormtroopers: Just storm troopers, re skinned, keeps people happy cos its another nation in there :p
Like Rahvenich said, Austrians are pretty much Germans.
Austrian and German "Proper" history is interwined ever since the creation of the Holy Roman Empire.
"You can close your eyes and plug your ears and be afraid and ignorant of the darker parts of history, but always know that you're the one responsible for allowing those events to happen again and with even greater consequences and not know how to end the nightmare you did upon yourself."

Offline GamblerSK

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2010, 05:56:57 PM »
We can have such faction on the Eastern Front:
  • Hungary had good non-German tanks
  • Croatia
  • Slovakia
  • Italy had interesting non-German tanks
  • Finland had captured old and new Russian tanks
  • Romania
  • Bulgaria
  • Spain


Czechoslovakia had a good non German tanks which become useful for several modifications

the light tank Lt 35 was used by Bulgaria as T11 and modified by Hungary as T21 Turan or Romanian TACAM R2

the Lt 38 was used by Germany as Panzer 38(t) E, F, G and was modified as
Flakpanzer 38(t)
Marder III
Grille
Hetzer

or the OA vz. 30 - armored car was used by a few axis countries
also a lot of machineguns and other weapons was used by axis
Czechoslovakia was one of the best armed countries before the war...
also we had good aeroplanes here's a list of some
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia

Offline UeArtemis

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2010, 08:20:02 AM »
And Hungarians had:
Medium tank 40M Turan I - 285 or 279 tanks
Medium tank 40M Turan II - 139 or 180 tanks
Anti-aircraft tank 40M Nimrod - 135 tanks
Assault gun 40/43M Zrinyi II - 66 guns
Armoured scout car 39M Csaba & 40M Csaba - 135 cars
Light Tank 38M Toldi I,II,IIA,III - 202 tanks
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Offline Ost_Front_Soldat

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2010, 09:21:51 AM »
Forgetting the Romanians? They deserve to be in this more than any other nation simply because they provided more troops to the axis war cause in the east than all of Germany's other aliies combined.

Romanian infantry and AT Grenadier are a must, also some nice vehicles they had to incorporate:

R2 LT-35 Light Tank
TACAM R2 Tank destroyer
T-4(Romanian Panzer IV, so add Romanians colours and make it a call-in)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 09:24:14 AM by Ost_Front_Soldat »

Offline UltimateIdiot

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2010, 09:49:10 AM »
the finis used the pz iv and stug but the italian tanks were pure bulls.ht,compare with russinas and german tanks.
There were 15 Panzer IV's bought, but those came so late that they never saw any combat against Russians, and were instead used against Germans in the Lapland War. There were 29 StuG III's (and 30 Stu 40's) in the use of Finnish Army, and those saw mainly combat during the summer -44.
Most of the Finnish Army tanks were Soviet, captured in either Winter War or the early days of Continuation War.

Offline shalar

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2010, 10:14:15 AM »
I really do appreciate the historical battlefield and the data discussion generated by my proposal so I'm sure that I'll talk for all the community when I ask you not to argue about what faction should be more representative just in this tread. And also make clear that I disagree on the fact of copy-paste a full wikipedia article in this forum. Doing that you are just doing the most boring thread, long and heavy and this way people loses all the interest in the idea discussion.

I would be glad to see an specific thread where all us can argue about what nationality needs to be in more representation so before that friends, we need to convince the developpers team to incorporate this idea into the Oostheer concept. So then I call you all to support and discuss about the heart of the idea and the way to take it into the playability of Company of Heroes and stop arguing about other things that should be argued in the future if we can afford the objective of incorporate this idea in the game.

I will appreciate any comment from the developer team also. What you think about that idea is it just a thing to consider or you reject it from the beginning?

Thanks to all and please talk about the idea and not about other things right in this post.

Offline TheReaper

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Re: Axis Non-German Troops
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2010, 01:33:25 PM »
And Hungarians had:
Medium tank 40M Turan I - 285 or 279 tanks
Medium tank 40M Turan II - 139 or 180 tanks
Anti-aircraft tank 40M Nimrod - 135 tanks
Assault gun 40/43M Zrinyi II - 66 guns
Armoured scout car 39M Csaba & 40M Csaba - 135 cars
Light Tank 38M Toldi I,II,IIA,III - 202 tanks

That's correct. The Hungarian tanks were effective until the apperance of the T34, so if you put them in, it would heve a low tech unit in tier 1 or 2 whatever. The basic infantry would be called "conscripts" or "Volunteers" basic and low quality infantry.

Romanian infantry and AT Grenadier are a must, also some nice vehicles they had to incorporate:

R2 LT-35 Light Tank
TACAM R2 Tank destroyer
T-4(Romanian Panzer IV, so add Romanians colours and make it a call-in)

The problem of the Tacam R2 TD, is that was in service fromm 1944-'45, and had a russian 75 mm gun mounted on it. I think, in this time Rumanians turned against the Germans, supporting the Allies, but the Developers will choose the units. It would be a uniqe look with these units for the faction Ostheer.