Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Announcements (Read-Only) => Announcements => Topic started by: Blackbishop on July 22, 2013, 09:25:15 PM

Title: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Blackbishop on July 22, 2013, 09:25:15 PM
(http://media.moddb.com/images/articles/1/123/122715/auto/ostheereflogo.png)
Hello EF fans,

We come this time to ask your opinion about one topic: the future of RMC.

(http://www.majhost.com/gallery/blackbishop/EF-Content/large_medals_special_air_service_badge.png)

After planning and analyzing the current layout of the RMC reward faction, we do think it has potential but right now it cannot be balanced properly because of the Commonwealth faction design, let alone that causes odd events and coding, so we have concluded than they will have better chance to be improved if they are made a standalone faction.

However, it seems a lot of players wonder what we were thinking when this was added on EF, because certainly Commonwealth doesn't have anything to do in the Eastern Front theater other than lending units to Soviets... so we have this dilemma: either we make it a new faction to balance it properly or we just remove it because it doesn't fit in the mod.

Remember this is not about having as much factions as possible, because more factions isn't going to make this mod a better one, at least not that alone. This is about if RMC deserves a second chance or not and if it does, we would be able to add different content as well(as possible as the models available allow, ofc). One thing to consider is that while making RMC a standalone faction might slow down the bug fixing process and it would keep busy our balancers in a different area rather than Soviet vs Ostheer and you know what this does mean.

Depending of the outcome(your feedback + our internal feedback), if RMC is removed things will be as usual in the latest patch, if RMC is given a second chance it doesn't mean it will come in the next big patch, it could be delayed for a while depending of how Soviet/Ostheer balance goes, because that has priority over anything else balance-wise.

We already discussed this in the internal section, however, we need to hear what the players think about it so, please think carefully, cast your vote and explain your point of view about the issue. I also want to point out than the feedback that really matters is the discussion and their respective posts being held here and not entirely what the poll says, because counting votes without arguments goes against what we are aiming to do here.

Thanks for your support,
Eastern Front Team
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Dzierzan on July 22, 2013, 11:38:37 PM
RMC is a broken faction which was made I believe in a rush. I remember people were trying to balance this faction but this didn't go well. This faction doesn't have the future. Keeping it alive only consumes efforts which we need for better balance Ostheer. I voted for removing this abomination.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Sommarkatze on July 23, 2013, 12:27:26 AM
Keep them, vanilla brits are terrible unbalanced. And you cant have ww2 without brits ;)

For example vanilla brits are slow and have nothing against early armour without going highresources or doctrine!
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: neosdark on July 23, 2013, 01:15:14 AM
Can we perhaps use them as a substitute faction for vBrits? I mean a complete overwrite, allowing Devs to start from a fresh slate and create a more interesting design for the Brits. Sure this has little to do with the actual Eastern Front, but Ostheer is done, and the most important goal (in my eyes) of this mod - a fair simulation of battles on the Russo-German Fronts - has been achieved.

So go at boys, surprise us, remake the RMC and make them a faction deserving to be British 8)
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: JohnSchwartz on July 23, 2013, 02:04:02 AM
The RMC was a worthy experiment, but I think the priority should be the Eastern Front. I'd rather see a focused mod that does a great job with two factions, than a sprawling mod that bites off more than it can chew.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: SC on July 23, 2013, 02:34:30 AM
Can we perhaps use them as a substitute faction for vBrits? I mean a complete overwrite

Can I vote for this?
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Sabre on July 23, 2013, 02:36:58 AM
RMC deserves another chance.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Trooper425 on July 23, 2013, 03:12:15 AM
I'm not quite sure the Brits were really broken per-se, and I don't think that adding RMC is in-line with the Eastern Front mod. However, my decision pivots on one question: What did the Royal Marines really do? If they really were a dig part of the Allied offensive, I vote to put them in. If, however, they are more of a side note in the Commonwealth's story, I vote to remove them.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: delmar77 on July 23, 2013, 03:20:30 AM
I prefer a presentation faction with existing models of the eastern front as Italian Romanians etc.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: SC on July 23, 2013, 03:51:04 AM
However, my decision pivots on one question: What did the Royal Marines really do?

Pretty much D-day from the beach landings to the offensive operations in the Netherlands.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: LiefTundra on July 23, 2013, 05:06:09 AM
Here's an idea (but I don't know if its a good idea), if the Ostheer is going to get a foreign faction, why not make the RMC a foreign faction for the Allies? Maybe they could have soldiers and vehicles from minor countries that helped the Allies during WW2 like maybe the Free French or something :P.

I don't really know what to vote for personally because I do not really see how the RMC fits in to the Eastern Front, but I kinda liked their playstyle and now even fewer people play the British faction. But I do think that the real focus should be on Soviets and Ostheer.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Blackbishop on July 23, 2013, 05:42:08 AM
@LiefTundra
That could work for sure ;).
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Michaelcycle13 on July 23, 2013, 06:53:49 AM
I have a crazy idea that just might work!
Please navigate to: http://www.moddb.com/mods/company-of-heroes-afrika
Here you will recognize another developer group who is building two new factions just as you have. One is a British faction for North Africa, and another is the Afrika Korps. Why not, combine forces with these creators and expand this to the southern front with Africa! You have come so far and if this was accomplished you could find your "standalone" british faction! As well as completely build the entire European war!
So, here is my piece... and I'm not sure if the codecs or the programming will work, but these guys have already made a lot! Perhaps you could arrange it to where Eastern Front and Afrika Mod combine forces and complete the entire European theatre!
Could you imagine? 8 Factions? Being able to choose to play Eastern Front, Western Front or North Africa maps!
Just saying, they already have a lot programmed, and they have been building many maps.
Give it a shot eh?
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: KarolR87 on July 23, 2013, 07:10:57 AM
In my opinion you should focus to polish  EF. Especially eliminate some AI bugs. I voted for remove Brits.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Dann88 on July 23, 2013, 07:45:46 AM
I voted to a completely new Brits (without trucks and even the officers teching), seriously stick with those stupid truck and their original units create trouble to balance the Brits. But the Ostheer must be the 1st priority.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Vophaice on July 23, 2013, 11:43:54 AM
I vote on keeping and improving RMC.

Why: First of all my gf just loves the RMC, and she played them mostly (she refused to play vanilla Brits since we had RMC).
Besides that, since the vanilla Brits are lacking in some ways to Feel like a well rounded faction (just like PE, with so many missing basic features), I just can't imagine a better solution than having a decent RMC to play with. (I am not talking balance here, just "feel" and general fun)
Balance aside, the RMC in the state it was in, was somewhat still better -and a lot more enjoyable- than the vanilla Brits. Since I play for fun, I would love to have a fun Brit faction.

And well, since the Ostheer is out, the main thing is out there. Polishing is one thing, but it's good to have another goal beside that. Like the Foreigns, where RMC could belong logically.
But I also agree that focus should be on Ostheer - Soviet balance and AI.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: JohnSchwartz on July 23, 2013, 02:55:12 PM
Here's an idea (but I don't know if its a good idea), if the Ostheer is going to get a foreign faction, why not make the RMC a foreign faction for the Allies? Maybe they could have soldiers and vehicles from minor countries that helped the Allies during WW2 like maybe the Free French or something :P.

I don't really know what to vote for personally because I do not really see how the RMC fits in to the Eastern Front, but I kinda liked their playstyle and now even fewer people play the British faction. But I do think that the real focus should be on Soviets and Ostheer.

This is a great idea. It would be cool to see the Poles or Greeks as well.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: kaiserkhorne on July 23, 2013, 03:01:16 PM
They are needded...
not only improve brits, that is necesary, and is more rich the game with them!

sorry for my english, i dont speack it usually
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: ubermensche on July 23, 2013, 03:38:58 PM
Here's an idea (but I don't know if its a good idea), if the Ostheer is going to get a foreign faction, why not make the RMC a foreign faction for the Allies? Maybe they could have soldiers and vehicles from minor countries that helped the Allies during WW2 like maybe the Free French or something :P.

I don't really know what to vote for personally because I do not really see how the RMC fits in to the Eastern Front, but I kinda liked their playstyle and now even fewer people play the British faction. But I do think that the real focus should be on Soviets and Ostheer.

I think this is a brilliant idea!

As for the RMC being its own faction, I'm afraid it'll just take too long before it happens. I mean it took like 5 years for Ostheer to be released. And now the devs have to work on improving the 2 factions AND they have to work on the foreign faction AND they have to work on the campaign. So you think they're gonna have time for a 3rd faction?
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Miles Dixon on July 23, 2013, 04:41:51 PM
RMC is good but maybe can be made it a better way, it should have something where Brits don't something that Brit's can access but they cannot, like PE and Wehr where PE is better in infantry and Wehr is all rounder, something like that?

or maybe RMC as an additional faction that combines from Brits and Canada forces too looks well :>
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: lordbane2110 on July 23, 2013, 05:24:27 PM
RMC was a good if broken faction, I would like to see them return as well, the standard Brits seem to be a defensive faction, with locking down territory and spamming defenses, The RMC could be an offensive equiv

I also agree with the germans getting a foreign faction, the allies should too why not take all the effort it took to make the RMC not go to waste

Joining the Africa Corps mod could also be cool, but in general I'm more in favor in keeping the eastern front as is
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: AdmV0rl0n on July 23, 2013, 07:09:21 PM
You guys did something great.

You made a brit faction that was pretty darn good, and more flexible than the originals. And as a user of your great mode, I have appreciated and *enjoyed* playing with the RMC a lot. Its a very flexible faction, and in playing them they are much less inflexible that the original brits. Maybe this ends up being the nightmare balance wise.

I've voted to keep them. I'm aware and fully accept that the eastern front was actually your focus and really the design of your 'art'. But sometimes things grow from the unexpected.

In respect of this, I do not know if this makes sense, but could it be a reward unit that remained, but the lobby leader has a tick box to allow the RMC? If the players want a strictly balanced game, they can rule out the RMC. And yet for those of us who play for fun, and I suspect that is many - the option can remain.

I am curious, can the team spec out what part of the RMC is badly imbalanced? Maybe you could just seek to remove the worst cases..

Even if you make the choice I don't like, I still want to thank all of you and the team - because I had a lot of fun just playing with that faction and I amsad to see it prospectivly go. It really would be a loss to the game for me as one of your users. I'm aware others feel it somehow pollutes things, and maybe it does in the harsh confines of a perfect setup.

Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Tico1990 on July 23, 2013, 08:21:59 PM
I vote for getting the RMC back in the mod.
While it is true that the Brits had nothing to do in terms of fighting on the Eastern Front, I don't believe this should be the all deciding factor in not redoing them.
I agree with the people who state that, now that the OH and SU are done, this could become a new focus point. In all honesty, the EF team has fixed problems and bugs in the original factions before. Including/remaking the RMC would follow this line in my opinion.
Someone also mentioned teaming up with the Africa mod. This is something I find worth looking in to. If it would be possible to make the mods compatible (aka, being able to play with both at the same time), than this would be truelly great. This way you still have two separate mods, but you'd be able to mix it up. This will also help to keep people interested in this game and this mod for a longer period of time.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: MonolithicBacon on July 23, 2013, 08:45:22 PM
I'm all for keeping them, as the Brits have been a favourite team ever since their release. However, despite my love for their turtling, they are seriously broken, and removing the RMC is pretty much rendering the vanilla Brits useless on the Mod.

I think if we're going to stick with the concept of not changing anything of the Vanilla teams, the RMC are a must, just to keep the playable teams at three apiece.

Personally, I loved the RMC in the previous versions, but I completely understand the issues that we had with them. How about a complete revamp, focusing more on the mobile, light and outnumbered efforts of the RMC and SAS (without the HQ trucks!)?

Also, could this be a chance to show off the RAF, at last?
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: skierkickjoe on July 23, 2013, 09:23:05 PM
I've been playing this mod for five years now, greatly enjoyed each new iteration to include the RMC. when I play as the Brits, which I do often, I only play as the RMC because the vanilla Brits just plan suck. That being said, I think that they can be much better then they currently are and would be better suited as a replacement to the Brits entirely as opposed to keeping it as a reward faction. While there is something to be said for focusing on the core elements of this mod and perfecting them, one of the  coolest things about this mod is to play as the Germans facing a mixture of Brits, Americans and soviets. The what ifs of WWII as opposed to the strict adherence to history isn't that after all why we play these kind of games, if you simply want to repeat history watch a movie or read a book.   
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Panzer4life on July 23, 2013, 09:27:48 PM
The RMc is something that could be done very well, as a stand alone faction. My main issue with the British is that they are very slow and static, as if they are stuck in WW1. The RMC could remove this issue, and they could be equipped with new units and have some parallels to the British. My suggestion is this;
1: Don't make it just the Royal Marines. While the Royal Marines are good, they don't make a faction. the RMC will need vehicles, support, and while the Royal marines may have some, they will need more variety to be good.
2: Borrow only a few units from the British Factions. Churchill tanks and maybe cromwell tanks I could see being in the RMC, but not infantry sections nor the base trucks. They are the slowness of the British Faction, and thus do the RMC a disservice.
3:Make new command structure for the RMC. The British are hampered by their heavy tier load, making them hard to play and harder to win as.While I enjoy their high tier equipment, its a joke unlocking, even worse that the Werh most of the time.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: luz777 on July 24, 2013, 01:13:25 AM
Here's an idea (but I don't know if its a good idea), if the Ostheer is going to get a foreign faction, why not make the RMC a foreign faction for the Allies? Maybe they could have soldiers and vehicles from minor countries that helped the Allies during WW2 like maybe the Free French or something :P.

I don't really know what to vote for personally because I do not really see how the RMC fits in to the Eastern Front, but I kinda liked their playstyle and now even fewer people play the British faction. But I do think that the real focus should be on Soviets and Ostheer.

I'd vote to keep RMC in the mod and restructure them along these lines.

I never played vanilla Brits any more and think it had a lot of potential. Not sure about the idea of making them a whole new faction. I think the idea of a "reward faction" like before and like the Ostheer foreign troops is a better idea. Just be sure that its balanced enough and has enough new goodies to lure people away from vanilla brits for good.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: LiefTundra on July 24, 2013, 02:25:27 AM
I'd like to keep them as a reward faction as well, but with different doctrines and a different feel then the original vanilla Brits. I think if they are to be an entirely different faction, they need to have lots of new and unique stuff like soldiers, vehicles, playstyle, doctrines, and teching, but I don't know if the devs have enough time or enough resources for all that. Of course the main focus should be on Ostheer and Soviets, but I think the RMC should have another chance as long as nobody minds that they didn't fight on the Eastern Front.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Blackbishop on July 24, 2013, 04:12:16 AM
We want them to have a regular HQ instead of the HQ truck... and with that said, we cannot do it if it is a reward faction. So, it is either make it a new faction or remove it because it won't be balanced properly.

I don't remember if I wrote it in the announcement, but creating a reward faction is by no means easier than making a full faction because at the end you will need to balance it as a new faction. If we would just change skins it then it can be used as reward faction(but it is not what everyone seems to want from RMC), but it is not the case because RMC has a different set of units units and teching tree(regardless if it is good or not): some units are just re-skinned from CW, some are new and others while look the same than the vanilla ones, they have been changed.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Michaelcycle13 on July 24, 2013, 05:55:43 AM
Did anyone see my idea? I thought it was cool. Thanks
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Blackbishop on July 24, 2013, 06:22:20 AM
lol... I'm up to crazy ideas :P.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Magyar on July 24, 2013, 02:55:09 PM
I agree that more factions does not mean the mod would be better as a whole, but at the same time I do believe that the team should give the RMC another chance by making it a new faction. The British are broken faction - that's a beaten horse. However, the fact that the British faction already exists means the voices, the models, the icons, etc. already all exist, waiting to be utilised. To me it seems simply sensible to make use of that and attempt to correct the flaws of the British by redesigning them from the ground up. It will require much balancing and programming, but it definitely would require far less time than the Soviets did, since much of the work is already done for you. Though it would be great to have new building models for the faction, I think we can survive we simply reskinned buildings for the time being, as is the tentative situation with the Soviets.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: neosdark on July 25, 2013, 03:47:44 AM
May I suggest we make an RMC/New British suggestion thread so folks can suggest designs for the RMC like we did for the Ostheer, way back when.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Theblitz1000 on July 25, 2013, 04:07:15 AM
I don't think the RMC should be a standalone faction however the British faction does need improvements, I would say to modify the current British faction with the implementation of some of the units from the RMC........... also I was thinking if it is approved to be a standalone faction maybe would there be a possibility that we can expect new faction counterpart to it (such as the Italians or the Romanians)  :)
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Zuzundra on July 25, 2013, 06:43:24 AM
In my thought RMC should be deleted from EF...now it is better to focus on fixing and improving OH and SU gameplay. A soon as devs will do this, and proof that the balance is going to "perfect" like in original coh, we will have more players in our community, and in my dream I will be able to use automatch )))
P.s. In idea, is it possible to ask top players of coh1 for checking EF in balance thoughts?)
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Michaelcycle13 on July 25, 2013, 06:50:33 AM
Is my idea under consideration?
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: AngelWizard on July 25, 2013, 07:24:12 AM
I'm for keeping it.

I would suggest keeping the trucks or, taking a leaf out of the COH: Modern Combat mod, let them build base buildings anywhere on the map. Of course, the sector they are built/to be built in must be connected to the command sector, if not the buildings are rendered useless. In addition, allow them to retreat to any of these base buildings.

The reason why I suggested these was because the one thing I found lacking was their ability to keep pressure on the opponent. Granted, they are able to retreat to their Captain, but that's on a cooldown. Imagine if you could retreat to wildly different places, to keep the opponent guessing.

Whether they'll be a completely new faction or a reward faction, I'll leave it to the devs. To make a completely new faction would mean a whole new can of worms, like new tech trees and tech tree progression, new doctrines, etc, which I believe the EF team have enough on their hands with the Ostheer at the moment.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Стрелок on July 25, 2013, 11:56:26 AM
                                                                                  RETURN RMC!!!
I love the RMC, I played for RMC more than ordinary British Army, RMC was better before the change.
I would like you to come back The Ultimate SAS Recon Jeeps and Daimler Armoured Car Mk. I  in command the glider as it was before!
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: luz777 on July 25, 2013, 06:32:35 PM
A thought...why not just bite the bullet and change the British faction to make it more like the RMC.

Faster moving units, less trenches everywhere, proper HQ, some better reward units etc.

I know it goes against the "expansion pack" feel of EF - but 2 different British factions might end up being a little confusing. Who's going to miss the Kangaroo really  :P
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Coloneltrukkcrasha on July 26, 2013, 03:05:14 PM
Keep the RMC.


However, I think we should combine some of the ideas in this thread. I think for doctrines, they could have RAF, Royal Navy support, and something like the Free French as choices. I also personally think that the foreign faction for the Axis should be its own faction instead of reward as well. I don't know how the devs'd feel about that but that's just my two pennies. Anyways for RMC they should have a dedicated sniper. It would be amazing. I also say they should get a command squad like the SU. Anyways I hope they stay.  :)
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: SonOfRoughNReady on July 27, 2013, 03:06:03 AM
RMC is great for the COH especially on the bigger maps with the Soviet units whom a little slow getting out of the starting gate to get the resources flowing. Bring it back, please.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Ghost on July 27, 2013, 02:45:05 PM
this mod is already more than pure eastern front (reward units, balancing,...). just make them their own faction, similar to the classic WM/US layouts. so people who like to play classic style rather than CW style can play brits
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: shieldtron on July 27, 2013, 09:21:28 PM
In my opinion I think that the RMC should be a reward faction for skirmish only.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: bavbav on July 28, 2013, 06:02:35 PM
id like to see brits that are slightly changed from original relic design but not much. how this is achieved, depends, either introduce a faction like rmc or simply edit the brits

so i think the most annoying parts of brit faction are slow and expensive infantry, trenches and free ops. some other things could be better designed too yes, but the core of brit problems comes from these because they make infantry broken in many aspects.

so id do the following:
- reduce infantry section and sapper cost by 1/3, to 300 and 200 respecivly
- remove slow walk speed they have in enemy teritory
- give infantry normal walking speed retreating instead of running
- remove free ops completely, brit truck would still lockdown sectors but not provide op. secured resourcing upgrade would still be available on all 3 trucks
- make trenches to function more like sandbags or neutral house, meaning they provide far less cover and cant be deleted and therefore garrisoned by enemy

these changes combined would make brit able to field alot more infantry and also be more confortable to play, but at the same time, without free ops and nerfed trenches, they wouldnt be able to have the munitions or fuel to mass upgrade/tech or spam invincible trenches. they would function much more like other factions with more emphasis on infantry and less on gimmicks

now id leave lts and their vet for now, if you think it would promote blobbing i disagree, because less munitions means less brens/riflenades/healing. in that regard theyd be in line with things like mass bars with flamers, piospam, grenspam or pgren with group zeal. every faction blobs stuff up, but they can also split, something brits in current relic incarnation cant.

that said other stuff like doctrines and vehicles i wouldnt change aswell. in the end i think theyd play similar but without really annoying things. i guess there are some things thatd need change like recon, maybe full sprint speed. and i always hated how brit vickers takes pop but cant rotate, while vierbel can and has insane dmg aswell, but whatever.

well i hope u do something like this, because if you go for entire redesign of brits, id say pe need one too with their mass variety of hts, but no main battle tank, no good arty, weak ability to lay field defenses, etc
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: JuhwannX on July 28, 2013, 07:21:02 PM
id like to see brits that are slightly changed from original relic design but not much. how this is achieved, depends, either introduce a faction like rmc or simply edit the brits

so i think the most annoying parts of brit faction are slow and expensive infantry, trenches and free ops. some other things could be better designed too yes, but the core of brit problems comes from these because they make infantry broken in many aspects.

so id do the following:
- reduce infantry section and sapper cost by 1/3, to 300 and 200 respecivly
- remove slow walk speed they have in enemy teritory
- give infantry normal walking speed retreating instead of running
- remove free ops completely, brit truck would still lockdown sectors but not provide op. secured resourcing upgrade would still be available on all 3 trucks
- make trenches to function more like sandbags or neutral house, meaning they provide far less cover and cant be deleted and therefore garrisoned by enemy

these changes combined would make brit able to field alot more infantry and also be more confortable to play, but at the same time, without free ops and nerfed trenches, they wouldnt be able to have the munitions or fuel to mass upgrade/tech or spam invincible trenches. they would function much more like other factions with more emphasis on infantry and less on gimmicks

now id leave lts and their vet for now, if you think it would promote blobbing i disagree, because less munitions means less brens/riflenades/healing. in that regard theyd be in line with things like mass bars with flamers, piospam, grenspam or pgren with group zeal. every faction blobs stuff up, but they can also split, something brits in current relic incarnation cant.

that said other stuff like doctrines and vehicles i wouldnt change aswell. in the end i think theyd play similar but without really annoying things. i guess there are some things thatd need change like recon, maybe full sprint speed. and i always hated how brit vickers takes pop but cant rotate, while vierbel can and has insane dmg aswell, but whatever.

well i hope u do something like this, because if you go for entire redesign of brits, id say pe need one too with their mass variety of hts, but no main battle tank, no good arty, weak ability to lay field defenses, etc

You have to remember that all british infantry are naturally tougher than all other in fantry. So you cant just change 1 thing about them without making 2000 more. Also we dont touch vCoH factions. If that was the case werh blitz shower would be re balanced. Nades that not only stun normal infantry, preretreat but even while retreating.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: bavbav on July 29, 2013, 03:19:56 AM
You have to remember that all british infantry are naturally tougher than all other in fantry. So you cant just change 1 thing about them without making 2000 more. Also we dont touch vCoH factions. If that was the case werh blitz shower would be re balanced. Nades that not only stun normal infantry, preretreat but even while retreating.

yeah i realize you dont change original factions, but maybe as a reward like faction, like rmc was.

concerning about infantry price decrease but not power, well i think its pretty simple, brit infantry without upgrades sucks. i sincerely doubt more squads are more powerful if u take into consideration that the other changes like no free ops means no easy munis to upgrade riflenades/brens and also restricts healing which costs 40 munis by alot. result is more squads and more caping power, but they are not strong at all. unupgraded they are also highly vulnerable to mgs. combined with much weaker trenches, i believe they would play much more like americans, able to take teritory abit more easy, but not with the insane power of upgraded stuff. that concerns also bren carier, if u have no free ops, how can it be repaired indefinately like in vcoh? i believe it balances out

but ofcourse balance is debatable. for example when u said wehr assault nades, are they really broken? vs americans nah, u hit 1 squad, whatever for 50 munis its neglected by retreat, ofcourse need to retreat in time clearly, like it used to be vs pe g43 slow. they are cleary very imba vs brits tho, because of brits blob, slow squads and expensive infantry, it works wonders and if u manage to get it off while theyre at hq truck, its game over. would assault nades still be imba if brits would have infantry more like americans? i doubt it.

well anyway whatever happens with rmc, dont overly complicate it like relic did with brits. and when i mention this, id like to say also, soviets and ostheer have their own weird things, not to the scope of pe and brit ofcourse, but they actualy feel like they have too many upgrades or stuff. nice example is for instance the diffrent upgrades soviet infantry gets with diffrent doctrines. or nothing..... so many units seem to overlap, something that doesnt happen with original 4 relic factions much at all. well id give more exact examples but not for this thread.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: sniper_bow on July 29, 2013, 01:22:41 PM
Keep the RMC.


However, I think we should combine some of the ideas in this thread. I think for doctrines, they could have RAF, Royal Navy support, and something like the Free French as choices. I also personally think that the foreign faction for the Axis should be its own faction instead of reward as well. I don't know how the devs'd feel about that but that's just my two pennies. Anyways for RMC they should have a dedicated sniper. It would be amazing. I also say they should get a command squad like the SU. Anyways I hope they stay.  :)


This from colonel says it all for me especially about the dedicated sniper for Brits as I have mentioned this throughout on forums and RAF & Royal Naval support would be epic keep RMC as balance is key without the RMC its 3 axis vs 2 Allied as vanilla Brits are bloody awful.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: ShiftySAS on July 29, 2013, 09:01:39 PM
I believe the Royal Marine Commandos deserve a second chance. Even though this mod focuses on the Eastern Front this faction is another great addition to the game and allows for players to have another play style to choose from. With the British being more defensive minded, the US and Soviets are the only two factions on the allies side that can switch both ways. The axis on the other hand, have now three different factions to choose from where you can play either way(attack minded or defensive minded). Playing as the Royal Marine Commandos was a fun experience even though they were broken. So lets give the chaps another go at it commanders.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: WiseLebron2000 on August 02, 2013, 01:52:16 AM
First I want to commend the EF team for the work they have done.  This mod is phenomenal and is testament to the hard work and dedication of the programming and balancing crews.  In my opinion Eastern Front in its current form far surpasses COH 2. 

Second, I vote for keeping RMC.  I like having as many diverse units sets as possible and I think removing the option from the game is unnecessary.  Those that dislike certain factions can state when setting up a game their individual restrictions.  For those of us that prefer as many options as possible keeping the RMC is preferred.  Splitting them into another faction would be great too if the programming team feels it has the time and energy to make such a commitment.  I would certainly support that as well.

Thirdly, Michaelcycle13's suggestion about combining with the Afrika Corps group sounds like a great option if technically possible.  Again adding more factions adds diversity and breaths new life into the game.  Artificially restricting the types of units/factions available based on the title ("Eastern Front") is, in my opinion, naive and short sighted.  I believe this community is more interested in expanding the life and excitement of the COH experience than maintaining a rigid adherence to historical accuracy.  Every game has a certain shelf life - even COH - so why not try to extend this shelf life as much as possible by continuing to expand to new theaters of war and adding new units and options.

Hope these suggestions are at least somewhat useful.  Thanks!
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Blackbishop on August 02, 2013, 02:39:06 AM
@Michaelcycle13 and @WiseLebron2000
Do you guys know that doing what you suggest means there won't be RMC at all right? Because the Desert Rats would fit that position.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: WiseLebron2000 on August 02, 2013, 03:23:27 AM
I see.  Well I guess in a perfect world it would be nice to see the "Desert Rat" faction included along with the German Afrika Corps.  If this meant replacing the RMC then so be it.  But again the idea would be to alleviate the programming burden on you and the rest of the EF crew by piggybacking off of the work of the Afrika Corps group.  This would potentially add two additional factions without nearly the amount of work required to develop them from scratch.  Again my perspective is that the more units/factions/maps the better.  Anyway to get there easily would, I believe, be helpful.

All that said I am very pleased with EF and the amount of time and effort that has gone into it as is.  I would not want to ask something of group of volunteers who have graciously provided their work for our enjoyment.  Please feel free to continue as best you see fit.  I look forward to any future additions!
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: GeneralStratus on August 02, 2013, 03:46:51 AM
Just to echo what was stated, i commend the developers for all their work in making this great EF mod. I agree with what wiselebron stated. I feel the more options the better and believe the vanilla brits are pretty weak against every armor. Also, quite frankly I think the RMC are much more fun to play. Splitting them into a new faction would be fine, I would just prefer the option to choose the RMC or a modified brit faction. 
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: prilladog on August 02, 2013, 07:29:25 PM
Keep them as a standalone. I loved playing them as it made Brits interesting since their uber nerf.

Having them removed actually makes going over to CoH 2 slightly more appealing.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Blackbishop on August 02, 2013, 07:51:56 PM
@prilladog
Yeah, specially because CoH2 has brits ::).
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: demon_llama on August 08, 2013, 05:27:32 AM
I'll like to suggest an alternative solution to the Royal Marine Commando issue. Create a new faction modeled after 1st Canadian Army and make the Royal Marines one of their 3 optional supports. There are a number of advantages to this approach:

1) Historically 1st Canadian Army was responsible to clearing the North-West European coast (Northern France, West Belgium, Netherlands) and frequently fought with the support of the real Royal Marines (cf. Battle of the Scheldt on Wikipedia).
2) 1st Canadian Army used predominantly British equipment (which players want to use in a more aggressive manner), but were responsible for the creation of some interesting equipment of their own (eg Wasp IIC, Ram Kangaroo, Sexton) which could be highlighted in the Canadian Faction.
3) It doesn't involve modifying the existing British Army (which the mod creators have no interest in doing)
4) 1st Canadian Army included Canadian, British and Polish units (as well as American, Belgian, Dutch and Czech units at different times) giving it a multinational feel similar to the Ostheer faction
5) It avoids the issue of having a "Commando Faction" which would seem imbalanced compared to the other factions.

Ideas for Canadian units could include:
2-inch mortars (A common piece among British infantry: lighter and handier than other mortars, but with less range and less power)
Bren carrier with Wasp IIC upgrade (This flamethrower equiped Bren carrier had a fuel tank on the rear allowing the vehicle to still be used as a troop carrier)
Ram Kangaroo (Heavy infantry transport)
Humber Armoured Car (Humber II had a HMG and a LMG, upgrade to Humber IV for a 37mm gun)
Sherman V (Upgrade to Sherman IC [more commonly called the Firefly]
Archer (A defensive AT vehicle that featured a 17pdr firing over the rear of the vehicle)
Sexton (A SP 25pdr on a modified Ram tank chassis)
Royal Marines could function as a form of elite infantry for the Canadian base faction, with the option for more Royal Marine equipment if one chooses Royal Marine Support.

Obviously this would all be a ton of work, but I hope the idea of a Canadian Army might give some inspiration.

Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: LiefTundra on August 08, 2013, 05:56:09 AM
I'll like to suggest an alternative solution to the Royal Marine Commando issue. Create a new faction modeled after 1st Canadian Army and make the Royal Marines one of their 3 optional supports. There are a number of advantages to this approach:

1) Historically 1st Canadian Army was responsible to clearing the North-West European coast (Northern France, West Belgium, Netherlands) and frequently fought with the support of the real Royal Marines (cf. Battle of the Scheldt on Wikipedia).
2) 1st Canadian Army used predominantly British equipment (which players want to use in a more aggressive manner), but were responsible for the creation of some interesting equipment of their own (eg Wasp IIC, Ram Kangaroo, Sexton) which could be highlighted in the Canadian Faction.
3) It doesn't involve modifying the existing British Army (which the mod creators have no interest in doing)
4) 1st Canadian Army included Canadian, British and Polish units (as well as American, Belgian, Dutch and Czech units at different times) giving it a multinational feel similar to the Ostheer faction
5) It avoids the issue of having a "Commando Faction" which would seem imbalanced compared to the other factions.

Ideas for Canadian units could include:
2-inch mortars (A common piece among British infantry: lighter and handier than other mortars, but with less range and less power)
Bren carrier with Wasp IIC upgrade (This flamethrower equiped Bren carrier had a fuel tank on the rear allowing the vehicle to still be used as a troop carrier)
Ram Kangaroo (Heavy infantry transport)
Humber Armoured Car (Humber II had a HMG and a LMG, upgrade to Humber IV for a 37mm gun)
Sherman V (Upgrade to Sherman IC [more commonly called the Firefly]
Archer (A defensive AT vehicle that featured a 17pdr firing over the rear of the vehicle)
Sexton (A SP 25pdr on a modified Ram tank chassis)
Royal Marines could function as a form of elite infantry for the Canadian base faction, with the option for more Royal Marine equipment if one chooses Royal Marine Support.

Obviously this would all be a ton of work, but I hope the idea of a Canadian Army might give some inspiration.



I really like the sound of that ;D
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: tehjdot on August 08, 2013, 04:10:27 PM
Although I've missed the vote I would still like to get in my opinion. I'm not sure exactly how it is unbalanced, I don't know if they are over-powered, but I assume they are simply under-powered. It is my opinion that things shouldn't be removed, only changed or added to. The removal of the RMC would really turn me off of the eastern front mod.

Ceteris Paribus, if they are under-powered, you can ignore them. They are really only an issue to the people who choose to play them. Usually the people who choose to play a specific faction, choose to do so because they enjoy the character and or the specific tactics/strategies of that faction. It is more about the journey, rather than the destination. Removing it would remove a lot of fun for a lot of people.

I don't think that it is important that this is an 'Eastern Front' mod. The overall objective of this mod is to make CoH more fun!
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Magyar on August 11, 2013, 08:11:10 AM
Quote
and frequently fought with the support of the real Royal Marines (cf. Battle of the Scheldt on Wikipedia)

Were they responsible for fortifying the centre island with the high fuel and ammunition and then spamming 25 pounders to bombard the German positions?
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: demon_llama on August 12, 2013, 04:07:44 AM
Quote
and frequently fought with the support of the real Royal Marines (cf. Battle of the Scheldt on Wikipedia)

Were they responsible for fortifying the centre island with the high fuel and ammunition and then spamming 25 pounders to bombard the German positions?

 ;) That wasn't exactly the approach taken during the Battle of the Scheldt, but the 25 pdr was an important piece of equipment for Commonwealth forces. Artillery was generally the only area in which German soldiers thought that the Allies had an edge on a piece for piece basis. I've read a lot of accounts from both perspectives concerning the devastating nature of 25 pdr artillery fire.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Michaelcycle13 on August 15, 2013, 04:54:59 AM
Hey Hey, in response to BlackBishop.
Perhaps if you were to negotiate with that other modding group you could find a mix style of Britain that satisfies not only the Eastern Front community but also the Afrika Modders. I'm saying here you have an opportunity to easily exceed and go up and beyond of what people thought possible. Creating a balanced Mod with 8 Factions! 8! And it wouldn't take much effort at all because the Afrika Modders have already basically assembled and designed 95% of the mod.

Even if the Desert Rats don't answer the RMC question maybe you could design your Eastern Front Brits, while adding the Desert Rats. So there could be Northern British troops and Southern British Troops adding a whole new diversity/angle to British military. You could input the maps designed by Afrika Mod into EF making it, OH EF and AK.
Combining the two communities could also bring much publicity and popularity to the Eastern Front mod along with bedazzled VCOH founds who just learned that there's a mod with 8 Factions in Company of Heroes.

I just don't understand why two great Modding groups wouldn't try to combine to completely top off the diversity of World War II.
In my eyes most work would come from balancing the newly added factions.

Can I get some feedback here? C'mon guys, let's bring us 8 factions
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Dann88 on August 19, 2013, 01:24:05 PM
You guys don't understand some basic things here. Create a faction are hard and time consuming, so do the stuffs make a faction. Adding a faction also add loading time and chance to crash. Play desert rats and afrika korps in another mod is better choice. I lost my interest so I stop here.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Todstyak on August 19, 2013, 07:22:13 PM
I do wish to keep and re-balance them, but i have another idea. What if instead of a whole new faction the Brits could be offered up in this mod as having lend-lease reward units that could replace soviet vehicles. Wouldn't it be cool to see various British vehicles that are new to the game and that are offered to vcoh Brits repainted with that delightful olive green and red star combo? This idea would have more relevance to the Eastern Front than simply adding a re-balanced RMC back into the game. What do you guys think about this?
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: colneri001 on August 22, 2013, 02:11:10 PM
Just put it.  ;D
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Magyar on August 31, 2013, 02:06:29 PM
After having played with the Ostheer several times, I have faith that the team could deliver a phenomenal British faction.

I am very pleasantly surprised by what the mod team has achieved. To say that the Soviets as a faction were rather rough around the edges upon the mod's original release would be an understatement, but the faction has since come a long way, and with all the experience that the team gained from working on the Soviets, they have managed to deliver a remarkable Ostheer. Naturally it is not perfect, but I am of the opinion that it feels very good to play as - I would go so far as to say that the Ostheer plays not only better than the British, but even better than the Panzer Elite. It is a phenomenal achievement to say the least that this mod has delivered two such quality factions, which surpass anything Relic has produced since the original.

With that in mind, I am genuinely curious as to what the team could craft for a British faction with their experience. Of course, I have no delusions that creating a new faction is simple, but with such a stunning success of the Ostheer and newer versions of the Soviets, I must ask: if they have the will to do so, why not?
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Token on September 27, 2013, 12:32:03 PM
should do it, add some unique units from commonwealth countries NZ, AUS, Canada, Ghurkas.... specialized infantry units
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Monos on December 19, 2013, 01:45:02 AM
after alittle bit of thinking i got the idea. You plan to release new reward doctrines right? The brits as is now has only one available doctrine choice in 1v1 and that is the commandos. Engie can be used as a desperate attemt at saving the game but still. 95% of pro brit games was commandos. The fact of having no real strat choices and only tactical ones with brits are some of what makes me like them. diversity over everything.

but at the same time, as said. Much of what is in the brit arsenal is only usable in 2v2 and up. So, reward tech trees?

The Marine faction as it used to be was all to random and well... messy. didn't really feel it.
so the trees could include more units with lots of abilities. Still few options basewise, but huge options doctrine and unit upgrade wise. your tech choice will be the doctrine instead of T1 to T3 buldings. Also if both sides of the two new trees was equally viable to pick early. or if the trees chad a pyramid type form. that if u choose one ability you could not get the other. that would also be different    (if possible)

anyways, lots of ideas. Think about it.
Title: Re: The Royal Marines Commando issue
Post by: Blackbishop on December 19, 2013, 02:31:01 AM
Good idea comrade. Reward trees for Brits is something we could try later. It would be better than trying reward factions :).