Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Suggestions => Ostheer Suggestions => Topic started by: Aouch on January 19, 2010, 07:20:08 PM
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See new version here (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3424.msg33558#msg33558). (My favourite)
This one here is outdated and I don't like it anymore.
See the original thread here (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=1218.0).
See unused units here (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=1218.msg13341#msg13341).
The Ostheer
Concept
This Ostheer can be compared with the Commonwealth and Red Army. There're various reasons to do so, to mention just a few, e.g. the OH can't build forward barracks in houses or have HMGs but instead strong infantry and effective field artillery.
In return, the OH can't use all of their units at the same time but rather have to concentrate on specialized types (→ Unit Pools).
Unit Pools
(Based on Lord Rommel's concept (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=925.0).)
Most base structures of the Ostheer can't produce units until "upgraded" with a unit pool (which costs extra fuel, manpower and time).
There're two unit pools for each of those buildings.
The unit pool can allways be changed (assumed you've enough resources), however only one can be used at the same time.
Veterancy
(Based on Herostrato's veterancy suggestion (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=1207.0).)
Ostheer-Veterancy doesn't increase the HP or accuracy of the unit but rather allowing the player to choose an upgrade resulting in making the unit "stronger" but in a more special way.
Both infantry and tanks can achieve three vet-states. The infantry-veterancy differs from unit to unit while tanks all share the same veterancy-types:
(Tanks which can gain veterancy are: Pz III, StuG III, Pz IV, "Panther", "Elefant", "Tiger".)
- Vet 1 - Tank Commander (Increases sight. OH tanks don't have a turret-top-MG, except StuG III.)
- Vet 2 - "Use Nebelkerzen" (Foggrenades are fired upon the tank) OR "Max Speed" (Tank drives noticeable faster for a short period of time.)
- Vet 3 - Sideskirts OR "Stationary Firebase" (driver helps reloading the main gun, resulting in a higher RoF but the tank is immobilized)
Upgrades & Abilities
Ostheer units have two types of upgrades: Global upgrades, which influences every unit of this type, like the "StuG III Ausf. G", which gives every StuG the longer barrel.
The other possibility how to upgrade units is through Veterancy-upgrades. Units can be invidualist with these upgrades.
The first possibility (global) cost some ammunition, while the upgrades gained through veterancy are free (but harder to achieve).
Veterancy also allows you to unlock certain abilities, for example "Throw grenade". However, some abilities will cost you some ammo. (Those, which aren't in this list are free!)
- "Throw grenade" [25m]
- "Fire Panzerfaust" [35m]
- "Plant Hafthohlladung" [75m]
- "Plant mine" [25m]
- "Light artillery strike" [100m]
- "Direct Fire" [35m]
- "Load Panzergranate 40" [50m]
Mobile Artillery
(Based on this suggestion by myself (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=1598.0).)
The heavy guns (FlaK36, PaK40, LeFH18) of the Ostheer weight too much to be pushed around by soldiers, like we do on the Western Front, in France. Instead, we have halftracks which carry the guns. Those trucks can detach the cannons and haul them down into fire-position and then behave like British emplacements. Of course, they can be again towed to the tractor and are then movable.
Captured Weapons - Beutewaffen
The Ostheer isn't able to use heavy weapons of the Red Army or recrew own equipment.
Maybe later in the war, when the Oberkommando has figured out how to pick them up, German soldiers will be able to use the soviet crap to defeat the communists with their own weapons. (Meaning that as long as the Developers haven't fixed recrewing bug for new factions, the Ostheer can't do so.)
Sectorprotection - Sektorensicherung
(Based on Lord Rommel's concept (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=925.0).)
The Ostheer secures resources by dominance: The more soldiers are in a territory, the more resources will be produced. Of course there is a limit, due to balance-reasons.
This is mainly a tribute to the Partisans, because it was easier to sabotage the supply-lines when the Germans weren't represented in this place.
Starting Unit
Since the Wehrmacht rolled up large parts of weastern USSR in the first days of war, this "Blitzkrieg"-strategy is also represented in my concept.
Therefore, the Ostheer starts with a Pioneersquad and a Landserzug. Ostheer can also get early tanks, but aren't the best faction in late-game.
Reward Units
The Ostheer also offers Reward Units like the vCoH-factions. They're unlocked by successfully completing the campaigns.
- PzKpfW. IV Ausf. E (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV) - (Replaces PzKpfW. III Ausf. N) Early version of the Pz IV, armed with the 7.5cm "stubby"-cannon perfect against soft-targets. [400mp 70f 8p] ✔
- 8.8cm FlaK36 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flak_88) (Replaces PaK40) Used in both AA and AT duties. Carried by a SdKfz. 11. [400mp 75f 10p] ✔
- JgdPz. 38(t) "Marder III" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_III#Marder_III.2C_Sd.Kfz._139) - (Replaces "Marder II") Effective tank-destroyer based on the Pz 38(t) and armed with a captured russian 7.62cm PaK36(r). [400mp 40f 8p] ✔ (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=1586.0)
- PzKpfW. VI "Tiger" - (Replaces "Elefant") Call in a heavy "Tiger"-tank. [800mp 180f 12p] ✔
Units & Buildings
HQ of the Ostheer
- Pioneers - 4 soldiers armed with 4x Kar98k. Ability: "Plant Hafthohlladung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafthohlladung)" (needs upgrade "Men against Tanks!", squad has to be directly near target to plant) [240mp 4p] ✔
Veterancy:
- Vet 1- "Throw grenade" OR "Plant mine"
- Vet 2 - Feldwebel (One man is replaced by a Feldwebel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldwebel) armed with a MP40, who influences the battleperformance of the squad.)
- Vet 3 - Frankfurt 42 Mine Detector OR FmW35 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flammenwerfer_35)
Buildmenu:
- Mainstructures
- Sandbags
- Barbed wire
- Czech hedgehog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_hedgehog)
- Offizier - 1 Officer and 3 soldiers armed with Kar98k make up the counterpart to the soviet Command squad with similiar abilities. [350mp 4p] ✔
Veterancy:
- Vet 1 - "Throw grenade" OR "Fire Panzerfaust"
- Vet 2 - "Use binocular" OR "Sprint"
- Vet 3 - "Light artillery strike"
Technology Camp [100mp]
- Men against Tanks! - Unlocks ability "Plant Hafthohlladung". [150m]
- Medic Center - The HQ is now able to heal nearby infantry units. [150m]
- Support-trucks - SdKfz. 11 and 251 can now reinforce nearby units. [100m]
- PzKpfW. III Ausf. L - Upgunned version with longer 5cm KwK39 L/60. [200m]
- StuG III Ausf. G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgesch%C3%BCtz_III#Variants) - The upgraded StuG with its StuK40 L/48 is the fear of soviet tanks! [200m]
- PzKpfW. V Ausf. D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV#Ausf._G_to_Ausf._J) - The new "Panthers" are now more reliable and comes with better armor. [200m]
Infantry Camp [250mp 20f]
- Landserzug - (Grenadier squad) 6 soldiers armed with 6x Kar98k. Strong and deadly for the enemy but more expensive than WH or PE infantry. [350mp 6p] ✔
Veterancy:
- Vet 1 - "Throw grenade" OR "Fire Panzerfaust"
- Vet 2 - Feldwebel (One man is replaced by a Feldwebel armed with a MP40, who influences the battleperformance of the squad.)
- Vet 3 - 2x MG34 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG34) OR 4x MP40
- 7.5cm leIG 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_leichtes_Infanteriegesch%C3%BCtz_18) - This gun replaces a light PaK as well as a mortar. Dependent on the configuration it either fires a HE or HEAT-charge. Ability: "Direct Fire (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2001.0)" (gun can shoot directly on targets) [300mp 4p] X
Support Weapons Camp [200mp 40f]
MOTOR POOL: [100mp 20f]
- SdKfz. 251 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd.Kfz._251) - Armored halftrack armed with a MG34. Can carry 12 soldiers / 3 squads. [200mp 20f 4p] X
- PzKpfW. III Ausf. G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_III) - Medium tank from the early stage of war armed with a 5cm KwK38 L/42. Inferior to the russian T-34. [300mp 45f 8p] X (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=189.15)
GUN POOL: (requires Army Group North or South) [100mp 20f]
- SdKfz. 11 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd.Kfz._11) - Halftrack used as troop-transporter, artillery tractor and also as chassis for the SdKfz. 251. Can carry 12 soldiers / 3 squads. [200mp 2p] X
- 7.5cm PaK40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_Pak_40) - Standard anti-tank gun used by the Wehrmacht. This cannon can easily destroy T-34's and also penetrate every heavy soviet armor.
Carried by a SdKfz. 11. [350mp 20f 4p] X
Heavy Weapons Camp [300mp 75f]
TANK POOL: [150mp 25f]
- PzKpfW. III Ausf. N (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_3#Variants) - Late version of the PzKpfW. III. Armed with the short 7.5cm KwK37 L/24 for use against "soft targets" like infantry. [400mp 60f 8p] ✔
- PzKpfW. V "Panther" Ausf. A (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_V) - Propably the best medium tank of the war! [600mp 100f 10p] ✔
ARTILLERY POOL: (requires Army Group North or South) [150mp 25f]
- StuG III Ausf. E (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StuG_III) - The StuG III was the most produced German "tank" of the war. The short 7.5cm StuK 37 L/24 is effective against infantry, yet it lacks decent anit-tank capabilities. [350mp 60f 8p] X (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=229028)
- 10.5cm leFH18 18/40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeFH_18/40) - This heavy howitzer is mounted on the carriage of the PaK40. Ability: "Direct Fire" (gun fires directly on nearby targets).
Carried by a SdKfz. 11. [450mp 75f 10p] X (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=233281)
Doctrins
Army Group North- Heeresgruppe Nord
Airforcemission - Luftwaffeneinsatz:
- Reconnaisance plane - A Fieseler Fi156 "Storch" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieseler_Fi_156) flies over the selected area detecting enemy units in this territory. [1cp 50m] X
- Luftversorgung - A Ju 52 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ju52) drops two containers with ammunition, fuel and LMG34s.[2cp 200mp]
- StuKa Attack - A Ju 87 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ju87_Stuka) "Sturzkampfbomber" attack the targeted area/vehicle with a precision airstrike (one single heavy bomb). Very effective against enemy tanks and structures! [2cp 100m] X (http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=232125)
Finnish Support Groups - Finnische Unterstützungskräfte
- German armament supply - Abilities "Fire Panzerfaust", "Throw grenade" and "Plant Hafthohlladung" cost nothing for a certain amount of time. [2cp 200mp]
- Finnish Jäger Troops - Call in a squad of 4 elite soldiers armed with 4x Suomi M/1931 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi_M1931) SMGs. Ability: Plant Hafthohlladung (needs upgrade "Men against Tanks!"). [3cp 400mp 4p] X
Veterancy:
- Vet 1 - "Throw grenade" OR "Fire Panzerfaust"
- Vet 2 - "Camouflage" OR "Sprint"
- Vet 3 - 2x Lahti-Saloranta M/26 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahti-Saloranta_M/26)
- Finnish Sniper - Call in an elite sniper-ace. [4cp 400mp 4p] X
Veterancy:
- Vet 1 - "Throw grenade" OR "Plant mine"
- Vet 2 - "Camouflage" OR "Sprint"
- Vet 3 - "Light artillery strike"
Army Group Centre - Heeresgruppe Mitte
Panzercorps:
- Panzergranate 40 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armor-piercing_shot_and_shell#Armor-piercing_shot) - Adds ability to tanks: "Load Panzergranate 40" (For a short period of time, the damage against armor is increased dramaticly.) [1cp]
- Experienced crews - All newly produced tanks have now already Vet I. [2cp]
- Heavy tank destroyer - (Schwerer Panzerjäger) Call in a heavy tankdestroyer JgdPz. VI(P) "Elefant" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefant) armed with teh 8.8cm StuK 43/1 L/71. Only one "Elefant" at the same time! [4cp 800mp 180f 14p] ✔ (http://www.moddb.com/mods/coheastern-front/images/elefant1#imagebox)
Mechanized Division:
- JgdPz. "Marder II" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_II) - Call in a tank-destroyer build upon the PzKpfW. II Ausf. C-chassis and armed with a PaK40. [3cp 400mp 40f 8p] X
- PzHb. "Wespe" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wespe) - Call in a "Wespe". This self-propelled artillery unit has a 10.5cm leFH18M L/28 attached on PzKpfW. II. [3cp 400mp 40f 12p] X
- Field-maintenance - (Feldinstandsetzung) When activated, all tanks damaged at this time repair themselve. [2cp 200m]
Army Group South - Heeresgruppe Süd
Fortress groups - Festungsverbände:
- Fortresstroups - (Festungtruppen) All units behind green cover gain additional bonus (e.g. it's harder to suppress this unit etc.). [1cp]
- Resource-exploitation - (Rohstoffausbeutung) For a short periode of time more resources are produced. After the boost the resource-production is temporarily decreased. [2cp 200m]
- Entrenched positions - (Befestigte Stellungen) Pioneers are now able to build heavy defences. [2cp]
- Trenches
- MG34-nest [250mp 20f] ✔
Eastern Satellites - Östliche Gefolgschaft:
- Knüppeldamm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corduroy_road) - All units move with maximum speed in landscape or on streets for a longer period of time. Only active in own territory! [1cp 150m]
- Volunteers - Call in a squad of 6 soldiers armed with german weaponry. This unit symbolizes all other Axis forces fighting in the east, like Romanians, Hungarians, and Italians. [2cp 280mp 6p] X
- HiWis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_%28volunteer%29) - Volunteers are also excellent workers! They can now construct concrete emplacements. [3cp]
- Dragon's teeth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_trap)
- Ostturm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panther_tank#Fortification) (Stationary "Panther"-turret.) [350mp 20f 6p] ✔
[/list]
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Very interesting...
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Very interesting...
Thanks! :)
However, I still need one unit for the Infantry Camp and at least two more global upgrades to munch up some mun, because individual unit-upgrades comes free due to the veterancy-system.
Any help is appreciated. :)
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What about this veterancy system that someone suggested on one of the other page:
They get stuff and abilities as they get vet
example
vet 1 grenade/sprint
vet 2 shrek/lmg
vet 3 Camo/unsuppressable
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Plz make the Feldwebel look like him and give him a PPSh
(http://www3.pic-upload.de/thumb/25.01.10/7qsq6e46ecte.jpg) (http://www.pic-upload.de/view-4367237/cross-of-iron.jpg.html)
;D
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What about this veterancy system that someone suggested on one of the other page:
They get stuff and abilities as they get vet
example
vet 1 grenade/sprint
vet 2 shrek/lmg
vet 3 Camo/unsuppressable
That's already part of my concept. ;)
@ Stuka: Feldwebel should have a MP40. End of discussion.
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this sound interesting ppl might like this.... ;)
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Is this all Finland's troops will be involved with this Expansion?... Finland had a bigger part to play in WW2 then this.. Mere backup for the Germans... And they weren't Axis, they wanted to defend their land, the fought away Russia AND Germany!
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You mentioned you needed another infantry unit type, I've made a topic about something that would fit this role perfectly, Gebirgsjager infantry, it can be found here!: http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2401.0 (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2401.0)
I already posted this as a reponse in the other official post, please don't find me repetitive hehe, I'm just trying to contribute and I think Gebirgsjager would be a perfect fit in the Ostheer.
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Hi spyther, I really like the idea of the Gebirgsjäger.
The problem is, I have no idea were to put them in... :'(
I think they're meant to be "elite", however, the standart infantry of the Ostheer, the Landsers, are already no weak unit. They should pwn Conscripts, Strelky, Riflemen with ease and also deal with Rangers, Airbornes, Tommys and Guards.
Therefore and of course because the "free" slot is now taken by the Offizier, it's hard to find an adequate place for them.
- Gebirgsjäger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebirgsj%C3%A4ger#Gebirgsj.C3.A4ger_in_World_War_II) - 4 soldiers armed with 4x Kar98k. [450mp 4p]
Veterancy:
- Vet I - "Use binocular" OR "Sprint"
- Vet II - Feldwebel (One man is replaced by a Feldwebel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldwebel) armed with a MP40, who influences the battleperformance of the squad.)
- Vet III - PzB39 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pzb_39) OR Zf. Kar98k (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar98k#Accessories)
If you help them finding a way into my concept, I'll certainly add them.
Is this all Finland's troops will be involved with this Expansion?... Finland had a bigger part to play in WW2 then this.. Mere backup for the Germans... And they weren't Axis, they wanted to defend their land, the fought away Russia AND Germany!
So you're asking to delete Finnish troops from my concept?
Actually, if you look at the other concept around here, I think mine gives the Finns propably the most attendion.
A whole side of a command-tree? Others only put one single unit, I've three, one of them being an elite infantry unit, plus one "uber" ability. ???
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Is this all Finland's troops will be involved with this Expansion?... Finland had a bigger part to play in WW2 then this.. Mere backup for the Germans...
I honestly don´t think Finns will come into this mod as a separate faction (although that´s an idea to consider).
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Agree with Saavedra. Finns won't have their own faction.
Just think about balancing: Late game is mostly based on tanks, what will the finns have? German StuG III and a few captured T-34 will hardly be enough, yet it would be very boring to see only "old" models being re-used.
@ Topic: I've replaced the Offizier with spyther's Gebirgsjäger. :D
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So you're asking to delete Finnish troops from my concept?
Actually, if you look at the other concept around here, I think mine gives the Finns propably the most attendion.
A whole side of a command-tree? Others only put one single unit, I've three, one of them being an elite infantry unit, plus one "uber" ability. ???
Not at all, I just thought they deserved more of a role.. And I'm not saying their own faction.. And has no one thought they weren't actually Axis? They fought against both Axis and Allied they just wanted to defend their turf..
I guess your right.. But will the Finns speak Finnish? I dont think the game was released in Suomi..
I know you said you gave them a command tree, could you PM me describing it a little more please? I dont understand the short description of a couple of units in the OP..
I was merely thinking a few Finnish maps could be included - namely Rovaniemi based on the Winter War, and Lapland..
And perhaps a Finnish faction with Russian tanks? It was how it worked when they fought the Germans out, they had the help of Russia..
And Perhaps a role in the Russian campaign..
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And perhaps a Finnish faction with Russian tanks? It was how it worked when they fought the Germans out, they had the help of Russia..
I always thought they're invaded by the Soviet Russia and forced to fight against Germany. At least they had hidden douzens of guns to be ready when time calls to throw the Communists out of their beloved country...
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why shouldn´t the ostheer be able to pick up russian weapons and to recrew their own weapons?
just because the russians can´t?
the developers solved this problem with making russian weapons cheaper and giving them more man to their crews- but you don´t do so- you just give the ostheer an unnecessary disadvantage.
why do you want to give the infantry just the Pzb39? they NEED the Panzerschreck against the is2 and the t-34
at mid-game the oh hasn´t got anything against the t-34 except of the 7.5 cm pak
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OK, it's not very clear. Right now, the Red Army can't capture/recrew heavy weaponry of any faction. The DEVs of course made it into a "feature" of the USSR. I like it, because it helps to balance them a bit.
However, the Ostheer will also not be able to recrew guns, but:
Maybe later in the war, when the Oberkommando has figured out how to pick them up, German soldiers will be able to use the soviet crap to defeat the communists with their own weapons.
I refer to the DEVs when I named the OKH. I know, not everybody gets the "joke"... ::)
However, please actually read before you post. Oh, look what is also there: ;D
(Meaning that as long as the Developers haven't fixed recrewing bug for new factions, the Ostheer can't do so.)
why do you want to give the infantry just the Pzb39?
PzB39 is good vs. light armored vehicles. Like T70 and so on. It was never meant to take upon T-34s.
My main idea when I created this concept was:
Strong start(-ing unit), inf that pwns nearly everything (that's what the Landsers are made for), but isn't available in high numbers (due to high costs), so you've to "care" for them (upgrades are gained through vet, so you're units have to survive).
Either play agressive with T2 Motor pool, which gives you access to Pz3, which will kill all vehicles available to enemy at this stage but is fairly vulnerable to at-guns and can't do shit to heavy armor (and you lack a pak). Or play rather defensive (gun pool), have no tanks or even light vehicles but the best AT-gun in CoH besides the 88 (the PaK40!) and something vs blobs (heavy 3.7cm flak-cannon).
In T3, either play agressiv tank-tactis (tank-pool) or rely on combined warfare with infantry (Landsers are still there and now supported with StuGs, they'll kill really everything on the battlefield) and artillery (105mm Feldhaubitze).
Oh, I'm not finished yet. ;)
Infantry will of course have something against armor. They can use the Panzerfaust (not the lousy Volx' one though) and the famous Hafthohlladung, which can rip through 140mm of steel. T-34 had around 45mm, though angled, it's useless, cause the mines were planted directly on the armor. Therefore: 75 mun -> Sure T-34/76-kill. :)
(Of course only if the enemy will be that dumb to let your infantry that close to the tank. Or the tank is immobilized).
they NEED the Panzerschreck against the is2 and the t-34
The thing why I don't like the Panzerschreck: It's already part of both "old" Axis-factions. Of course, other things like Pz4 and Pzfaust are also "old", but you can't replace everything.
However thanks for your criticism!
Every kind of feedback, positive or negative, is welcome.
Oh, and I need some help:
* Missing Vet-states for both mortar and Pak36. Suggestions?
* More global upgrades would also be nice...
* Army Group Centre again looks a bit too armor-heavy to me. Any thoughts?
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Any idea when Ostheer will be added to EF?
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I really like your idea, although my main fear is that if the Ostheer were to be released exactly like this, then I think it would take quite a long time to get used to them as they seem extremely tactical (like the Panzer Elite).
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Any idea when Ostheer will be added to EF?
Sure; Done when its done.
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I really like your idea, although my main fear is that if the Ostheer were to be released exactly like this, then I think it would take quite a long time to get used to them as they seem extremely tactical (like the Panzer Elite).
Thanks :)
However, your "fear" was my main idea. ;D
Ostheer shouldn't be a faction which every "noob" can play and win with. Also, OH shouldn't be pure mix of WH and PE, unfortunatly, many (retarted) people here seems to wish something along this lines, God knows why...
The Ostheer I suggest is difficult to play and not for noobs since you have to look after your units because they're expensive and normally can only be upgraded through veterancy, so the main goal to win with the Ostheer is to preserve your units and use them "together" to get their full potential (e.g. PaK36->tread breaker->Hafthohlladung->there goes the red crap...)
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Why "Light artillery strike" costs only 75ammo?
Commando and Lts arti costs 125ammo. Only russians can have a cheap arti strike.
Vet concept is good.
Sectorprotection - Sektorensicherung interesting concept but hard to balance. Ostheer would need 10 pathes to balance that.
PzKpfW. 38(t) and JgdPz. 38(t) "Marder III" as reward units?
PzKpfW. 38(t) would be a slower T-17/Hotchkiss. Nobody needs a unit like that.
Marder III - PE has them.
PzKpfW. III Ausf. E/M - J or L version with focused fire would be better than both of these tanks. 340MP/50fuel 420HP same gun as the upgunned Hotchkiss.
StuG III Ausf. E - only if you can make a gun upgrade (long barrel).
leFH 18 18/40 cant have a direct fire ability. 25lbs would then need the same ability.
Field-maintenance - smells like US. Shermans, M-8s, jeeps were easy to repair. German vechicles were not.
Whats with a Finnish Jäger Troops in the army groop north?
Its the Germans that helped Finns on their front. Not the other way around.
I olso dont like the Nord, Mitte, Süd doctrine names.
A doctrine that has planes and elite infantry should be called airborne luftwaffe or commando. Not Nord.
A doctrine that has armored call-ins and field repairs should be called armored breakthru or engineer. Not Mitte.
A doctrine that has entrenched positions and cheap infantry should be called infantry or propaganda. Not Süd.
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A doctrine that has planes and elite infantry should be called airborne luftwaffe or commando. Not Nord.
A doctrine that has armored call-ins and field repairs should be called armored breakthru or engineer. Not Mitte.
A doctrine that has entrenched positions and cheap infantry should be called infantry or propaganda. Not Süd.
But those names have already been taken...
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Thanks for your feedback. :)
I'll comment your critizism:
Why "Light artillery strike" costs only 75ammo?
Commando and Lts arti costs 125ammo. Only russians can have a cheap arti strike.
Actually, the arty strike just made it into the concept because I couldn't think of something else which would fit as a veterancy-ability for a sniper.
Vet concept is good.
Thanks, but I wasn't the one who suggested it in the first place.
Sectorprotection - Sektorensicherung interesting concept but hard to balance. Ostheer would need 10 pathes to balance that.
You're right, it's really hard to balance. But again, I ran out of ideas and just copied Lord Rommel's suggestion.
PzKpfW. 38(t) and JgdPz. 38(t) "Marder III" as reward units?
PzKpfW. 38(t) would be a slower T-17/Hotchkiss. Nobody needs a unit like that.
Why not? The 38(t) was used a lot in early war, it's perfect to replace the Pz3, both have nearly the same calibre (3.7cm)
Marder III - PE has them.
PE has the Ausführung M. The Marder I want as reward is the Marder H. There's already a model (at least, there was one) follow the link hidden in the check mark to view it.
PzKpfW. III Ausf. E/M - J or L version with focused fire would be better than both of these tanks. 340MP/50fuel 420HP same gun as the upgunned Hotchkiss.
The reason why I included the E and N: I don't want to have too many different calibres in my concept. Right now, I have only 3.7cm, 7.5, 8.8 and 10.5 for the "big guns". No place for a single lousy 5cm. ;D
StuG III Ausf. E - only if you can make a gun upgrade (long barrel).
Upgrade to Ausf. G is in the HQ-upgrades.
leFH 18 18/40 cant have a direct fire ability. 25lbs would then need the same ability.
Why not? Because others can't do isn't a valid reason in my eyes. Conscripts also have 0 pop, no other faction has it.
Field-maintenance - smells like US. Shermans, M-8s, jeeps were easy to repair. German vechicles were not.
Yeah, but I can't think of something which would fit here instead of the US-copy.
Whats with a Finnish Jäger Troops in the army groop north?
Its the Germans that helped Finns on their front. Not the other way around.
I olso dont like the Nord, Mitte, Süd doctrine names.
A doctrine that has planes and elite infantry should be called airborne luftwaffe or commando. Not Nord.
A doctrine that has armored call-ins and field repairs should be called armored breakthru or engineer. Not Mitte.
A doctrine that has entrenched positions and cheap infantry should be called infantry or propaganda. Not Süd.
Here I agree with WartyX. We need something new. Three Heeresgruppen and three doctrines, so why not? ;)
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Thanks :)
However, your "fear" was my main idea. ;D
Ostheer shouldn't be a faction which every "noob" can play and win with. Also, OH shouldn't be pure mix of WH and PE, unfortunatly, many (retarted) people here seems to wish something along this lines, God knows why...
The Ostheer I suggest is difficult to play and not for noobs since you have to look after your units because they're expensive and normally can only be upgraded through veterancy, so the main goal to win with the Ostheer is to preserve your units and use them "together" to get their full potential...
Yeah I agree with you, I can imagine (if you were playing against the Soviets) that you could get straight into the fighting as both of these factions are strong early-game, but if the Ostheer are more powerful in the early stage as you suggested before, then what advantage do the soviets have?
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personally i like the PZ3 idea in the "one hell of a concept" topic. your pz3's start with a hotchkiss unupgraded type gun and for individual upgrades that cost fuel, you can give then either long barreled 5cm, great(slightly better then upgraded hotchkiss0 aganist up to medium tanks, or short stubby 75mm like pz4 inf support, altho less armor.
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The problem here is that my Ostheer only allow individual upgrades through veterancy. But allowing the gun to be upgraded without costs doesn't sound right to me.
A global upgrade also wouldn't do the job, because it's global.
Next thing to consider is, that the different Pz3 Ausf. differed a lot from the previous one. For example, compare the Ausf. E (http://www.panzer-reich.co.uk/gallery/gallery-panzer-3-ausf-e-pzkpfw-3-e.htm) the Ausf. J (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-748-0089-10,_Russland,_Soldat_auf_Panzer_III_J.jpg) (1 (http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/german/panzeriiijcav_1.html)) and the Ausf. N (http://www.battletanks.com/pzkw_iii_ausf_n.htm).
Last thing is that I don't like the idea at all, sorry. Individual upgrades like this fit better for the old WH or maybe PE.
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The 38(t) was used a lot in early war, it's perfect to replace the Pz3, both have nearly the same calibre (3.7cm)
PzKpfW. III Ausf. E/M - J or L version with focused fire would be better than both of these tanks. 340MP/50fuel 420HP same gun as the upgunned Hotchkiss.
The reason why I included the E and N: I don't want to have too many different calibres in my concept. Right now, I have only 3.7cm, 7.5, 8.8 and 10.5 for the "big guns". No place for a single lousy 5cm. ;D
Germans cant have an early bulletproof tank becouse UK and US have no AT units till they get a Stuart/57mm.
3,7cm guns wont be usefull in mid game while 5cm guns are a perfect counter to any light armor. 5cm hotchkiss (more powerfull than a Puma) can rear shot-kill an IS-2 (watch it on youtube) so theyll be usefull in late game.
leFH 18 18/40 cant have a direct fire ability. 25lbs would then need the same ability.
Why not? Because others can't do isn't a valid reason in my eyes.
Becouse it would be OP!!! 1 unit could kill half of an attacking enemy blob (like a stuH) and then fire at his base when the survivers retreat to HQ (105 bombardment). No other fraction can overkill like that
I olso dont like the Nord, Mitte, Süd doctrine names.
A doctrine that has planes and elite infantry should be called airborne luftwaffe or commando. Not Nord.
A doctrine that has armored call-ins and field repairs should be called armored breakthru or engineer. Not Mitte.
A doctrine that has entrenched positions and cheap infantry should be called infantry or propaganda. Not Süd.
Here I agree with WartyX. We need something new. Three Heeresgruppen and three doctrines, so why not? ;)
Nord, Mitte, Süd names are based on history facts but dont say anything about these doctrines. You could call them black, green and red:D. That would be new too.
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Why can't the german's have an early bullet proof tank? just means someone needs stickies!
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Here's a upgrade you can give to the SdKfz. 11,
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41yyZ8a1z9L._AA280_.jpg)
It'll be like the American M16Halftrack upgrade,
Big guns, can't carry troops
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AH yes, the Sdfkz 7/1. Good idea.
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The SdKfz-mounted quad-AA-gun doesn't really fit into my concept, because I've "movable guns" which has to be set-up like British emplacement.
It would maybe fit into the WH, since they can have their halftrack being upgraded individually, hence it doesn't work with my veterancy-upgrade and global-upgrade system.
@ Paciat: You've convinced me. I'll take all guns with 3.7cm out of the concept and now rather concentrate on 5cm, 7.5cm, 8.8cm and 10.5cm.
Panzer III now have the KwK38 L/42 with the possibility for a global upgrade to KwK39 L/60.
I've also changed some other aspects of my concept, for example it now feature Lord Rommel's 7.5cm leIG18 (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2001.0) which can either functions as mortar or AT-gun. :)
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I really like how you've set up the doctrines historically. However, I think the Army Group North doctrine needs to be more defensively oriented and Army Group South needs to be more like how you've set up Army Group North. Yes in the early stages of Barbarossa Army Group North was very mobile, however when they reached Leningrad most of the mobile units were sent to Army Group Center and the majority of North was essentially static.
The Finnish troops and the Romanian troops are true to history, I simply suggest that Army Group North receive the heavy defenses that you give South keeping in mind that Leningrad was alot lot a WWI trench stalemate through much of the campaign and Army Group South received alot of support from Luftflotte IV ie. the Crimea, the Caucauses, Stalingrad etc. Its true that Leniningrad was bombed to oblivion over and over, I think it more appropriate that Army Group North doctrine focus more on artillery.
Anyway, to recap I love how you've styled the Doctrines, it just needs a little tweaking. Hopefully we will see a doctrine system like this in the final version.
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it would be cool if the defensive wing of the Osthher had a wide selection of bunkers to build. It could be like the British!!!!
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@comrade: I think we shouldn't give the Ostheer too much static emplacements. Right now, Army Group South is already very defensive. Also, the heavy guns (Pak40 etc) "work" like British emplacements, except they're additionally mobile.
@2LTAndeh: Thank you for your advise! I'll work on it and try to improve it. :)
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This is my favorite Ostheer concept so far, though I have a few unit suggestions to help even things out a bit....... ;)
1.) Enable T3 Gebirgsjägers and HiWi squads to use 2x Eintossflammenwerfer 46 (disposable like the 'faust, for 35+m per use) for increased offensive capabilities. However, there is also a defensive penalty, making the squad more vulnerable for a short period of time.
2.) Enable Army Group North to produce either Flammpanzer II "Flamingo" / PzKpfw II(F) (Sd. Kfz. 122) or SdKfz.301 Borgward IV Ausf. C "Wanze" as specialized mobile units. It'll be up to the player to choose between infantry-killing (Flamingo) or tank-killing (Wanze) tactics. Ideally, the cost should be the same as a PzKpfw IV.
3.) Add 5-man Werwolf cells as a doctrine-specific special unit for Army Group South. Werwölfe were lightly-armed German guerilla cells trained in the use of anti-tank weapons ('faust, halfholladung) and setting up booby traps (teller mines, booby-trapping buildings and caps). These could be made concealable and summoned from nearby buildings via a doctrine-specific call-in: "Jugend, Sich wehren!" (like Fallschirmjäger, only they're easier to kill since they're guerillas) or alternately, available through a "Werwolf Versorgungslager" upgrade to the forward HQ: Werwolf Versorgungslager (enables recruitment of Werwolf cells; 150+m)>>Werwölfe. Cost = same as Fallschirmjäger.
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Einstossflammenwerfer sounds possible. :)
The Flamingo/Wanze fits in my opinion better into Army Group Center. They could possibly replace the Marder and the Haubitze-Selbstfahrlafette.
Werwolfs? Never heard of them and this is the point where I can't agree with you: I think there is really no need for such a unit. Also, nobody knows them. Sounds like Overkill-Partisans to me.
BTW: I've written a light version of my concept. Check it out here (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3424.msg33558#msg33558). :)
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Werwolfs? Never heard of them and this is the point where I can't agree with you: I think there is really no need for such a unit. Also, nobody knows them. Sounds like Overkill-Partisans to me.
BTW: I've written a light version of my concept. Check it out here (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3424.msg33558#msg33558). :)
maybe these could help:
http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=2T5YOy3iTYAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Werwolf&source=bl&ots=Hq1igZ3HK0&sig=Q25_W84oewDug61NosbiMw65kQY&hl=en&ei=
ZsnoS9ijIIjotgPf78DlBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false (http://books.google.com.ph/books?id=2T5YOy3iTYAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Werwolf&source=bl&ots=Hq1igZ3HK0&sig=Q25_W84oewDug61NosbiMw65kQY&hl=en&ei=
ZsnoS9ijIIjotgPf78DlBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf)
This film also features the Werwölfe: "Europa" Directed by Lars von Trier
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(film) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(film))
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101829/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101829/)
Overkill? not really, since as they were not frontline troops and could be killed easily (hence, they were cannon-fodder; though they could be competent tank hunters when camouflaged and in cover). Most of their activities involved propaganda and sabotage/booby trapping, and Goebbels even went so far as to call any armed German civilians "Werwölfe". Additionally, the Werwolf organization was said to have extensive resupply stashes, so in theory, a squad might also be able to give a munitions cooldown bonus to units within their immediate area... :D
So, in a nutshell, they would differ from Soviet partisans because:
1.) They could double as tank hunters ('faust, hafhollhadung; possible 'schreck upgrade still open for debate).
2.) They could booby-trap buildings/strategic points and set mines or incendiary traps.
3.) They could provide a munitions cooldown bonus to neighboring units.
4.) These could be summoned from nearby buildings via a doctrine-specific call-in: "Jugend, Sich wehren!" (like Fallschirmjäger, only they're easier to kill since they're guerillas) or alternately, available through a "Werwolf Versorgungslager" upgrade to the forward HQ: Werwolf Versorgungslager (enables recruitment of Werwolf cells; 150+m to upgrade)>>Werwölfe.
5.) The camouflage ability would only be available in owned/allied territory (Werwölfe were primarily defensive units; this would also prevent Werwolf spams from sneaking into enemy bases unimpeded and causing havoc).
6.) Units attacking them would incur slight defensive penalties (Allied/Soviet troops were always paranoid because of the threat of Werwolf attacks, so they were more cautious; NKVD, however, would gain a lot of +xp by killing them).
7.) For additional balance, Werwölfe could be made not to be able to capture SPs, just booby-trap them (or they could be able to, only really really slowly).
It just struck me that there were no harrassment-and-sabotage-style units of this sort as of yet in EF, even though the real Ostheer tactics used were mixed combinations of blitzkrieg (in the early stages), scorched-earth, urban assault, propaganda warfare, and partisan (and counter-partisan) warfare. These tactics--- particularly after the Russians invaded the Sudetenland---were what spurred on the formation of the Werwölfe. While the Ostruppen were reduced to fighting withdrawals while forming wandering pockets and Festungs(fortresses), the Werwölfe put up a small yet determined resistance against the Russian rear echelons in the occupied territories. These guerilla attacks helped in slowing down the Soviet columns; enough to necessitate the distracted enemy into mounting cleanup operations and wasting resources.
Anyway, I think they'd make good campaign units for the OH and RA too (the Battle of Berlin comes to mind). ;)
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Werwolf... +1
I would like to see a unit like Werwolf in Ostheer too, in other threads, comrades were discussing about including an unit as spy, i think Werwolves could fit the role.
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To me it seems that Werwolves weren't important in the war, when their greatest known "success" (killing an inocent civilian) was made by Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht.
Desperate try to win the Endsieg, nothing more. :)
Maybe Lord Rommel can tell us something more about them and if they're worth being part of EF.
BTW: Das Heimatland, not Die Heimatland.
EDIT: WTF ??? I think I'm too tired...
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Indeed, just propaganda, there's no proof that they did anything during their "existence".
EDIT: I was thinking... asking for a unit like this is like asking for a maus?
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Somebody created a list with units which makes no sence at all and are a no-go for Ostheer.
Amongst them were the Maus, Jagdtiger, Sturmtiger and various other units.
And I completly agree with this list.
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To me it seems that Werwolves weren't important in the war, when their greatest known "success" (killing an inocent civilian) was made by Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht.
Desperate try to win the Endsieg, nothing more. :)
Maybe Lord Rommel can tell us something more about them and if they're worth being part of EF.
BTW: Das Heimatland, not Die Heimatland.
EDIT: WTF ??? I think I'm too tired...
Telling about what? Sry, but i hadnt read everything new here at the suggestionboard ;)
I hope that u dont want to have a abstract about the "Wehrwolf Bewegung" because for me this idea is absolutely needless for the Ostheer.
The Wehrwölfe ( i prefer WeHrwölfe instead of Werwölfe ) were build up in the last days of the war. Most of this "units" were planed but were never realized.
All in all the number of Wehrwolf-Kommando were sooooo small that their result were absolutely ineffective and inefficient.
And perhaps two point u hadnt reflected in relation with CoH and the Ostheer;
The Wehrwolf-Bewegung was a reaction against the great "collaborating" of the german population with the western alliies.
The idea of the Wehrwolf-Bewegung was to destroy the relation by assassinations, acts of sabotage and things like this.
The "general point" behind the Wehrwölfen arent fitting realy into CoH and "my idea of the Ostheer" and so out of my personal view i'm totaly against the Wehrwolf-units at the Ostheer.
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I was almost sure that Wehrwölfen wouldn't pass Dev's QA ;).
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to me, werwolves could a doctrinal unit, stealthy good in sabotage and mine with a pfaust ability but useless in direct fight
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I guess that settles the Werwolf thing.. :P
Moving on, I still hope that the Flamingo and the Wanze would still make it as anti-infantry and anti-armour substitutes, respectively (esp. the Wanze instead of Marder II/III). I think these could possibly represent the various "interim solutions" used by the Ostheer on the Eastern Front...
The faster Flamingo combined with FlmPz. III and infantry support might make a good assault combination mid-game for Mitte...until bigger tanks come along that is. Then the Wanze and other heavier vehicles come in :) It wouldn't be OP, since the Russians attack with superior numbers anyway. ;D ;D ;D
What do you think? ???
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Thanks to Lord Rommel for the clarification. :)
I waited for your comment, because you know very much about the history of WW2 and thus can tell us if something is worth to be propably part of EF.
@ Werwolf: I'm sorry, but I decided to rather work on my 'light Ostheer concept' (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3424.0) instead of this one here, because I like the new one much better.
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You mentioned you needed another infantry unit type, I've made a topic about something that would fit this role perfectly, Gebirgsjager infantry, it can be found here!: http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2401.0 (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2401.0)
I already posted this as a reponse in the other official post, please don't find me repetitive hehe, I'm just trying to contribute and I think Gebirgsjager would be a perfect fit in the Ostheer.
The Fins did actually fight with Germany and one of the main German leaders was Finish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_Emil_Mannerheim) he sent many troops during the invasion of Russia and the Fins hated the Russian for attacking them during the winter of 1939 I think it was. Also known as the winter war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War.) There is enough information to justify the use of Finish troops during the war.
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Not at all, I just thought they deserved more of a role.. And I'm not saying their own faction.. And has no one thought they weren't actually Axis? They fought against both Axis and Allied they just wanted to defend their turf..
I guess your right.. But will the Finns speak Finnish? I dont think the game was released in Suomi..
I know you said you gave them a command tree, could you PM me describing it a little more please? I dont understand the short description of a couple of units in the OP..
I was merely thinking a few Finnish maps could be included - namely Rovaniemi based on the Winter War, and Lapland..
And perhaps a Finnish faction with Russian tanks? It was how it worked when they fought the Germans out, they had the help of Russia..
And Perhaps a role in the Russian campaign..
It seems like a whole load of effort to create the finns as a faction, then to just consider them a "Borderline" faction. It really doesn't make sense.
The winter war was before the second world war, the war itself is completely irrelevant to the eastern front.
I'm sorry but the facts and the logistics behind creating finland as a completely new faction that can be allied to either side seems slightly unbalanced and a bit washed out. Sure it is historically accurate, but clearly the developers are trying to cator for everything in a single faction. It doesn't really make any logical sense to have the finn's as a seperate faction.
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LOL @ faction concept revive.