Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Marcus on January 21, 2010, 11:27:06 PM
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Hey guys, here we are, it's a nice day today, finally the game is out and we are all happy to play it..
But...Balance! ! !
Ok, this is the unstoppable BO for any 1vs1, u can do it also in team games (each player can do this, or you can just do this while your partner goes tanks):
- Eng + Eng + Eng
- Command Squad
- Eng
- Support Barracks
- Sniper + Sniper + PTRD + Sniper + PTRD
-(Outpost where u need it)
Game Over.
Bike spam? as soon as i get 1st ptrd (that would be my first unit on the field from the support center) u loose all the bikes
Mg spam? as soon as i get the first sniper squad u loose all the mgs on the field
Sniper spam? as soon as i get the first sniper squad u loose all the snipers on the field (because my sniper squad is made of 2guys, u kill one i kill your sniper)
Volks Spam + blitz nades? same
Fast T2? same
PG spam as PE? same
Fast AC? 1PTRD squad can rape it so fast, and if u have troubles u just need to build an outpost
Fast T2? same
Combined arms? same, engis + command squad with light artillery + snipers + ptrd own everything...
The only strategies that MAYBE (but i think they won't work) will work are piospam or fast T1 as PE (but fast T1 = u build T1 with the first PG squad and spam scout cars, rushing panzer IV to stop the ptrd spam)
The main problems related to russians are:
-When u gain upgrades you troops become unstoppable
-The Command squad is too strong, compare it with a gren squad (same cost), it is fairly better
-Too many abilities to break suppression
-Too many arty options from the early game (command squad has the free arty that is OP)
-You can spam a lot of troops without a good upkeep cost
-You can gain map control just as you are piospamming, but your troops are stronger than pios vet0
-Russian Faction has been designed to stop late game WM because they have no veterancy but they start already as good units, that means that all troops are stronger than wm troops unless WM has vet 3 (this means that a panther vs russian tanks is paper, you can call it a real "panther" once you get vet 3)
-Russians are a weak faction vs arty, this is true, but you can't get a good arty option vs them (nebels because mortars dies vs russian "howitzers" mortars) in 1vs1 because you need fuel and map control...
-Russians are a very spammable faction, combine this factor with americans or brits and you will have the biggest zombie army ever, if u play amis u go wsc and spam medic tents and get 4-5 free rifle squads in the first minutes, if u are brits u can have a tommy blob even faster... (because medics can get russian woundeds, i thought they couldn't while they can xD)
-I think (my personal thought) that u balanced the mod mostly playing vs an expert computer, that has more resources and stronger infantry/vehicles...that means that you made a faction that can't be compared to the other factions in PvP games because it can't be stopped in any way...(e.g. engis cost 150 MP, once u get sturmovie armor your engis are like rangers, they still cost 150MP but they are able to kill Stormtroopers with 2MP44, i can't stop that, no1 can stop that...)
My suggestion now is, let us play more games to study better Russians and see what units should be nerfed and how much, i assure you we can do a good job, try to play vs a good 1vs1 player as russians or vs russians using that strategy, try to stop it, if you are able to stop it and u think you have found a good strategy that write up here.
From now what i can say is:
-Nerf a bit the damage of conscripts and engis, nerf engis, conscripts, strelky and guards once they get their upgrades (they must loose vs a vet3 infantry units because they cost less and because they are really more spammable)
-Increase the upkeep of all russian units when u have more than 2/3 of them on the field...
-Increase the cost of the support barracks, slightly increase the cost of snipers and PTRD, like 300MP for both of them
-Decrese the damage of the mortars, at least a bit
-Nerf the Command squad, (HP and/or damage), or increase its cost, change the light artillery strike (it's a too easy mg counter atm), if you want to have it free change it (like 1howi strike on the field), or give it a cost (like a MP cost because of lack of munitions in the early game)
-Increase the cost of the Outpost (like 300MP)
-Decrease the damage of Engis flamers (it's like piospamming + flames, nerf a bit them)
-Decrease the damage of Partisans, they cost only 300 and they do their job like british commandos, that's bad.
These changes are not complete and they are related only to Russian infantry. I will update this post as soon as I can.
Peace. (Btw i love the game, finally something new! biggrin.gif )
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are you high?
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Yea I am really high.
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I agree with nearly everything Marcus said.
Especially those sappers are unstoppable in early game. They pwn 2 WH pios at the same time! And if it's true they only cost 150 MP (haven't played USSR yet and I don't want to play them) it's just OP.
However, as WH, especially if you spam MGs, which is the only effective counter I've seen yet (till snipers arrive...), you can gain 3CP in the first 2-4 mins. Which just doesn't feel right.
Also, I've thought the Commies were "caught by suprise" or something similiar. But ingame, the Soviets can win in early game by just spamming sappers, snipers and ptrds.
The command squad will erase every MG and the rest...
Let's just not talk about it.
Oh, I'm not a very highskilled player, but it seems like I'm not the only person to complain about the balancing.
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This guy has got the main reason why the russians are too strong.
Easiest way to see that these guys are stronger even without any tactics, just go for a computer match.
the 2nd match i was playing 2 soviets owned easily 2 wehr and 1 PE. damn hell, nah.
Really a awesome mod guys, really great work :) i love it and
i will go on playing it, but for a human vs human match this mod isnt really usufull (at least, isnt it yet) im sure you will get it right.
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We might already have a balance patch in the works.
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First of all your not supposed to play PE in 1v1 and ingeneries die like flies, having more than one is just bad, when they get suppressed they die before they even get a chance to crawl away. At least pios can retreat.
The soviets aren't that different from the other armies, the basic tactics still works, you can benefit from the no-retreating in many ways, encircle the enemy and you can kill entire battalions. It really sounds like you haven't even played a single games as the red army and just noobishly claim that they are OP!
The only thing that made any sense at all is the part about american med tents that are having one hell of a field day with all the conscripts running around dying everywhere.
If any of you are so sure that the red army is so powerful im always up for a game :) (evil laughter)
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Alright, finally registered.
I just returned from playing 2 matches in 1v1, i gotta say Soviets are way to unbalanced, i read what Marcus sad i also agree with everything, way to much arty. Not to talk about how weak 88 was which is one of germans strongest shit.
I serioussly got pwned, i got half map do my usual tactics..
Soviets also can do mass spam really fast.. and mortar wow.. its like artillery shells its firering. But i do not know about Russian mortar if it was like that its okay i guess.. Wehrmacht doesnt have anything to beat the red army!
HOWEVER, im happy with Eastern Front, it really isamazing and fun. I bet there will be updates in the future soon.
btw whoever textured the Snow, GOOD JOB!
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flak 88 in 1v1? they don't really go together.
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We were just testing, how thing was verseus that and that the first match.
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I have just registered to mention that the Russians are too strong, yet as I see, somebody else has done that already in a very detailed way. ;-)
I have played two skirmish maps so far, the first time I chose Berlin, playing as Russians, the second time I chose Stalingrad, playing as Wehrmacht. Well, as Russians, you simply rush the map, so the Wehrmacht players have no chance of getting map control. When I played the Wehrmacht, the Russians had already conquered three quarters of the map when I was heading for the first checkpoints. The Russian units move faster, shoot as sharp as a butterfly knife cuts through living flesh, and construct buildings, as it seems, with lightening speed. When I played the Russians, I was astonished to be able to build heavy tanks after a few minutes. The Wehrmacht players did not even have a chance to enter their third phase. Instead, they were defeated as though they were noobs not knowing how to use the resources.
The Russian tanks take out anything you could throw against them. Infantry tanks can take 2-3 shots from a Tiger I (!) before they are destroyed. In a one on one fight, even a T34 proves stronger than a Tiger I, both firing at each other's fronts (!).
The Russian sniper teams defeat any German infantry whatsoever. They do not mind being fired at neither by mg squads, nor snipers, motorbicycles, panzer grenadiers, storm troops or pioneers. Mortars are taken out within seconds, Sturmhaubitzen (StuH) may take out one sniper team before they are destroyed by Russian AT soldiers.
Destroying two or three Russian squads usually ends in a 75-90% loss of German troops.
Within five minutes, the Russians had a winning point defended by mgs, sniper teams, AI tanks, medium tanks and heavy tanks, not to mention artillery strikes without pause--thus early in the game!
When I played the Russians, I experienced the same. Within a few minutes, one can build everything from light infantry to heavy tanks and artillery.
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Did you get shot in the head or something? some units needs their costs changed especially the mortar and some units should have their capping speed reduced to match the axis but its not game breaking.
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As for the tanks I think its reasonable to expect them to cause a lot more problems for the axis! Soviet tanks were expected to go toe to toe with the axis panzers and slug it out. It might take a little getting use to as wehr but i think having to deal with tanks that have some staying power will get easier. Though i guess the price might need a little change.
Agree with the mortar though i love it. And maybe a little increase on the sapper build time will slow the soviets early rush a little? idk they might be shitty but you can pump them out pretty fast. But the wehr are never suppose to get a majority of the map even with the offical relic "balanced" factions you find the wehr always holding on to its little corner for the first part of the game.
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"First of all your not supposed to play PE in 1v1 and ingeneries die like flies, having more than one is just bad, when they get suppressed they die before they even get a chance to crawl away. At least pios can retreat.
The soviets aren't that different from the other armies, the basic tactics still works, you can benefit from the no-retreating in many ways, encircle the enemy and you can kill entire battalions. It really sounds like you haven't even played a single games as the red army and just noobishly claim that they are OP!
The only thing that made any sense at all is the part about american med tents that are having one hell of a field day with all the conscripts running around dying everywhere.
If any of you are so sure that the red army is so powerful im always up for a game :) (evil laughter)"
sarcasm?! :|
First of all, i am a top player on Company Of Heroes, i play ALL the factions on 1vs1 and 2vs2, i don't have problems playing PE vs americans and vs brits, we are talking about russians and you can't argue that russians win in 1vs1 vs PE because PE is underpowered because PE can beat brits and amis (even if we know that there some issues that must be fixed), we are talking about the fact that you can't beat russians, as PE or as WM...
All the points that i wrote are correct, i tried with Ra11..demonstrate me that i am wrong with proofs...
If you want to 1vs1 i have no problem, add XxRAxXMarcus2389, if you can't find me watch 2vs2 as americans, i am number 1 (MUAHMUAHMUAH...no... ;D ) (kidding ofc, but don't be arrogant, i am sorry but you are wrong ^^ )
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Did you get shot in the head or something? some units needs their costs changed especially the mortar and some units should have their capping speed reduced to match the axis but its not game breaking.
Very interesting use of words to prove your point in your posts :P
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First of all your not supposed to play PE in 1v1 and ingeneries die like flies, having more than one is just bad, when they get suppressed they die before they even get a chance to crawl away. At least pios can retreat.
The soviets aren't that different from the other armies, the basic tactics still works, you can benefit from the no-retreating in many ways, encircle the enemy and you can kill entire battalions. It really sounds like you haven't even played a single games as the red army and just noobishly claim that they are OP!
The only thing that made any sense at all is the part about american med tents that are having one hell of a field day with all the conscripts running around dying everywhere.
If any of you are so sure that the red army is so powerful im always up for a game :) (evil laughter)
Balancing EF will take time. The odds of an initial release being balanced for or against any given faction are astronomical given the number of variables. Separating signal from noise will pose a challenge for the team, too. Every valid complaint will come with another ten that prove totally invalid over time as players develop different strategies and tactics. That said, I've scanned a few of your shrill posts, and know that if enough of EF's player base is as deluded as you, the mod will wither on the vine.
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agreed FartofWar
I think the Fundamental problem lies within the fact that it is Vcoh...and well, enough said.
But I agree with most balence points brought up so far, and I want a make a suggestion that western and eastern allies not be allowed to play with each other. period. One fron or another because if armies mix, well, it becomes an insanly unfair game. end of story.
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I'm just putting it out there, but perhaps some of these issues aren't balance problems and can be defeated with craftiness. I don't play as the Axis so I wouldn't know. It's just that I remember when the PE and Brits were unleashed, everyone started storming up too.
I do have a problem with the tank riders; once you get it, you can't manually mount guards onto the T-34's, you have to call in one which stinks. And once you upgrade the Strelky and Ingeneries, you can send them in like British commandos, tearing up everything at close range.
I'll admit I'm biased, but don't change the mortar. I like it being bad ass.
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Alright, anyone who says that the Russians aren't OP I don't know what game you're playing. I played with a real noob teammate against two pretty good players and myself being an above average player (600-400, MajKusanagi). We both just started as the Russians and were pretty easily able to beat them.
Just got finished with a 3v3 as Werh x2 and PE vs Russ x2 and USA. We seriously outplayed them all game with tactical gameplay, ops and the such.We had good AT and good AI while all the Russians had to do was spam infantry and Arty along with tanks mid game. All of the Russian units are pretty cheap compared to their German counterparts. Even the Russian builders are pretty damn strong.
By the end of the game we lost. We had well over 40k points per player on our team while the Allies had 10-20k points. The Russians are suppose to be numerous and weak, not numerous and powerful. Any good CoH player should be able to recognize the imbalance though.
I trust that the developers will help balance it though.
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I agree with most of the points in the first post mainly,
-The tank hunter infantry + sniper team spam makes russian early game OP (only time I beat it was when i bum rushed to t4 as wher)
-I noticed alot of talk about soviet tanks. While the russian tanks are definitely powerful, they don't seem too overpowered (well maybe just a bit XD) as with careful micro of panther/pio's I've been able to keep it even most of the time (although I had to have alot of panthers =/) It definitely was weird o not be able to rush my panthers in and expect them to beat every other tank though =D
-Also, It seems to me that since the soviets have all their resource usage specialized (e.g. only time they use munitions is in armory upgrades, don't use any fuel till tank depot) they float those resources and dont really have to choose what they want to use them on (e.g. they never have to choose between using fuel on upgrades or using it on tanks since tanks are the only thing that cost fuel, same relationship between munitions and doctrine abilities/upgrades) While I like how this makes the soviets unique as a faction, I feel there should be something to balance out the advantage this gives them over the other faction.
-In the games I've played the command squad has been able to go toe to toe with any t1 wher infantry (havent reallly tried it agaisnt t2 grens) It seems the command squad shouldn't be able to fight so much as...well...command =P
-Lastly, wher propaganda war has no effect on soviet troops, I know they normally can't retreat but the inability to use prop war makes terror almost useless in my eyes (especially since propaganda war has so much potential agaisnt a blob of soviet infantry)
I'm just an average (mostly wher) player so things might be different for the higher level players.
btw, great mod! really refreshing to play w/ a new and unique faction.
Edit: As to my third point concerning the resources, it's less about balance per se and more about making the soviets a bit more fun to play, I love the fact that I have to pick and choose between more upgrades or more units on the field for the other factions. I think having this be more of a factor for the soviets would make them more interesting.
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Just played 1v1 me wehr and brother Soviet. Guess who won? Me.
Soviets are not OP, you just have to play differently then either the brits or US. Infantry blobs were cut down to nothing in second with an MG and a nebel, or even an MG and a Grenadier with MG42.
Vet 1 panther will beat any soviet tank 1v1
Have to be much more mobile than with US. You cant bunker down like the other factions.
Finally, it seems soviet early game is strong, with the only late game edge being the IS-2 and w/e upgrade or two the soviet player researched. Neither is hard to beat, you just have to adjust to what the soviet player does
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and yes, soviet CONSCRIP take no POP cap. You can just spawn thousand of them then attack. it unfair for the german. Soviet engineer take about 2 sec to make...wtf
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You can't balance a game thinking only to low-mid skilled players (max respect for them), you must balance the game even for pros, and especially for abusers, as soon as some1 finds an OP strategy (like the one i posted, again some1 should try it in 1vs1), you will start seeing that EVERYONE use it, just because the major part of CoH players play to win, not to have a fair game...(And this happened with Piospam, Roospam, ACspam, bren carrier trick, etc etc, if you are a fair player you won't use those "abuses" too much, if u want to win at all costs you will)...That's why those balance issues imo should be seriously considered, because when people will understand how powerful can be one single way to play, they will just start playing all in the same way...(and i am talking about games where players have a strong micro-macro)
Voop_Bakon add me on CoH, maybe you have a strategy to stop Russians, i would be glad to find one too...
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Yes , thank god someone listed main problems early - mid game , (btw , almost never wh can make to the late game). My ranked lvl in coh is about 14-15. Everything that Marcus said is true. I want to talk about early wh vs russians game:
- Where is the disadvantage(historical) of weak russian early game? Pios < Ingenery ,
Conscripts + Ingenery >= Volks
Mg 42 < Command Squad , or eaten by blob if it is in building
what can i do? i need to have at least 1/3 map control to even think about T2.
- This is meat nation , you cannot do units like conscripts + little backup to match 280 mp volks , where you have 12 units (8 shooting 4 manshields) for 350 mp and very short building time.
- So what? free arty from command squad early game? greaat , no counter
- Ok , mega meat units which costs not very badly , have almost no popcap , and where i got to T2 you got IS-2
- hmm , i dont know what was your history consultant , because tanks like T34 should be similar to PIV and IS 2 to panther , and now , the fact pak with first shot in ambush can kill IS - 2 in about 8 hits , and T34 in 6 , so how can i defend?!
- mortar with 105 mm -> total op , you cannot do almost nothing
- situation with snipers and teams with anti - tank rifles were mentioned in previous posts...
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When I first looked at the soviets in paper, their doctrines and abilities (mostly artillery and suppresion related) seemed too much. I played 2v2's and 1v1's on both sides today, and confirmed this.
overall problems I have with this mod:
No munitions cost.
For a faction that already has a manpower advantage from low teching costs and cheap squads, both in reinforcing and their up front cost, plus they have almost no manpower drain on your upkeep, this is how the us is kept in line.
The abilities on a timer provide a huge problem, since they simply can be spammed to provide a manpower drain on your opponent, while you are using those munitions to upgrade your units to ridiculous status, leaving you the manpower that other armies have to use for teching costs or veterancy to be used for more units or more tanks.
Too many suppression breaking abilities.
Sure you have a shaky start, and are forced to find creative ways to use your officer squad(forgot actual name) to flank mg's and or get out of the line of fire. but once you settle in, and start getting doctrinal abilities combined with suppression breaking abilities found by upgrades or better squads is where you start making mg's obsolete, and if OF tought us anything, it's that we need to go back to vcoh mechanics not blooby tactics.
Id suggest instead of so many suppression abilities, why don't you guys give the officer or another unit the ability to force retreat individual russian squads on a timer, so that you have a skilled way to preserve your units, but don't have the ridiculousness of being able to walk by mg's all the time.
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start learnin layered defences baby!
Fireup rush the first one only to see a second MG behind the first, and maybe even a third behind the second! nasty surprise in the fog ofwar.
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Start learnin to think logically , command squad is T1 unit , which can go out when you got one mg .... which cannot cover big areas... i know that people just pretend they are good not the faction is totally op...
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I had played three games 1v1 and:
- when playing breakthrough strategy you can call Tank Riders-750 mp and NO pop. After ~15 minutes I had about 25 T-34 and horde of troops without using fuel.... that's OP
- there should be only ISU-152 at the moment on the battlefield
- mortar- shoot to fast
- no MG's
- conscripts should take pop
- sniper team - NO, alone sniper - YES
- t-34 is almost like panzer IV, and after upgrade with 85mm it's like panther - OP