Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: CerealKiller on January 22, 2010, 02:05:08 PM
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Instead of everyone creating their own posts about imbalance, we should have a common thread about the current balance and what we want to be done in upcoming patches. If you think something is wrong and needs changing just post a reply and i will edit my post.
"Read 1337 times" :D
Soviet Wrecks - Should be run over like normal wrecks.
The Red Tide - Upgraded strelky remains unaffected and maybe more infantry.
At gun - Crew replenish cost reduced (it's 94)
Conscripts - The men without guns have a bad habit of running out of cover into the crossfire.
KV-2 - Increased armor.
T-90 - The motor sound is still on when the tank is destroyed.
Tank Riders - Tank riders should take damage when the tank is destroyed.
Su-85 - Quieter sounds for Su-85 in the fow (you can hear them the second they spawn)
Outpost - Reduced manpower cost to 200.
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I like it, just would`nt agree on pop costs and upgrading buildings to reinforcement points, outposts are one of the things that make Soviets unique, other then that - nice observation.
And capping speed should`nt be too decreased (or at all), after all Soviets can`t secure resources.
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I don't agree with your sniper change. Soviet snipers can't walk around cloaked so they need that second guy.
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Heavy mortar - increased cost and reduced range to match American mortars. no smaller
Katyusha - a maximum of 3.
AT squad - At rifle damage to buildings lowered. its 0
Popcap costs - Changed to match other armies. its the same ><
Healing truck - should be an alternative to a more stable healing like the ami healing station. Or give outpost a healing upgrade for some manpower and ammo.
it can heal just hold it still
and force retreat should work
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Malashenko: Capping speed is really one of the things that makes the soviets overpowered and they don't need to build OPs because they have very little use for lategame munitions.
bastex: Force retreat does not work on the red army.
As for Katyusha it's also one of major imbalance problems, it costs only 300 manpower with the destruction of a calliope barrage and it has nearly half as long cooldown.
Well nevermind the healing thingie then i guess it's just a minor annoyance.
con_chulio: I've already written about Commissar Arty.
LaughingSam, i can't see what your post has to do with balance, keep it in the suggestion forum.
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it doesnt need to set up
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I think the most OP unit in the Russian army is the sniper team. They are very cheap, you get them right away and when paired with a eng unit you can walk around killing inf all day. I had pair of snipers in one grouped unit of inf and each team got around 50 kills by the end of the game!
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Commissar Arty - needs a change
I just destroyed a whole building with a mg42 in it. It was an 1vs1 game and I think my opponent had no fun at all. That kind of Arty is way too strong in the early game.
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You all try playing Panzer Elite instead of Wehr. You will be pleasantly surprised.
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Hello all. In the interests of trying to keep related feedback in a single thread, I picked this one, hope its close to where it wants to be.
Firstly, I'd like to say thank you to the developers of this mod. You've done an amazing job with the russians, and boy do they look great. Your hard work is greatly appreciated. Now, some 'first impression' gameplay feedback... I apologize for the volume of text, I seem to have carried away, and let me reiterate that I think you guys are doing amazing work here. Please don't let my rambling convince you I have anything less than total respect for your work, and for your desire to make your mod what YOU want it to be.
A couple of things sort of jump out at me about the course of the few games I've played. The first is that the soviets have a major advantage in map control from the start line so to speak, which seems out of place given the course of the early war in the east. The advantages in massive and inexpensive tank and troop production were the result of a relatively slow process of moving men forward toward the front from much farther east, and moving industry back and away from territory that couldn't be held, or could be threatened from the air. To me it seems that these advantages should be developed in the first few stages of russian teching rather than straight off, to reflect the unprepared and defensive nature of the early war. Stalin did after all order his front line troops at the very start of barbarossa not to 'yield to any provocation' from advancing german forces, so to take a game as a microcosm of the war, millions of peasants being hurled into German territory from early in the conflict is quite a reversal. Especially considering that the russian army at the time was, if underequipped by comparison to a fully modern german army, still a proffessional fighting force. Would it completely throw everything off if the first available unit to the soviets was Strelky rather than conscripts? I'm thinking that an early fuel-based upgrade could start the troop trains from siberia and the urals rolling. This would limit the huge territory gains the russians seem to make in map control, which cripples the german ability to tech and bring motorised/armoured units in the early-middle game. The russians pay little enough for their forces (especially in fuel) that I doubt it would slow them down too much, but the germans are dead in the water without that early fuel flow. This would also mean that the russians are paying SOME upkeep before later tiers, rather than throwing their initial manpower into a staggeringly large army pouring onto the front off the bat when they should (again, taken as a microcosm of the conflict) be rocked back on their heels. The red army at the early stages of the war was after all very short on the armaments they
needed, and had lost a staggering number of tanks in the first few days of the invasion, so actually needing to contest some (defended) territory before fielding swarms of t34s doesn't seem out of place, and I'm guessing it wouldn't throw balance off too badly. Possibly soviet tanks could be significantly more expensive by default, and then cheaper with a series of two upgrades to decrease their cost? Call it something like 'Tractor Plants to Tank Production' and 'Factories Reassembled in the Urals', and have these being manpower intensive upgrades, with some small fuel cost. It takes a lot of people after all, to move entire industrial complexes. My thinking is that this way the russians would have to do at least some holding on with infantry and AT guns before the tankovy battalions start steamrolling on the counteroffensive. Lastly, perhaps a hefty (say 50?) munitions cost added to the russian mortars could reflect the difficulty of keeping heavy weapons supplied for the russians early on, as late in the game I don't think the munitions are too hard to come by for them given that they spend it on one-time upgrades (unless hard pressed of course, when you ought to be short ammunition).
For the germans, stylistically speaking, it would be nice if their early armour was more reflective of the invasion force (I know it looks like work on the jerries is forthcoming), possibly with things like panzer II's and III's replacing puma variants and at halftracks. These were early, and very fragile designs replaced by the germans with more well-known PIV, panther and tiger designs which were all brought into service to address the superiority of early
soviet tanks (mainly the t34) in armour and firepower, but were manned by far more experienced crews, and were still capable of engaging russian tanks in the disadvantageous close quarters capacity. Just seems a bit odd for the german at guns to be their most effective anti-armour measure at the early points of their invasion when that sort of equipment was still struggling to the front behind panzer divisions and self-propelled guns. On the side of infantry,
another alternative to semi-balancing out the conscripts would be to make grenadiers the starting infantry, with Volksgrenadiers (an undertrained, later-war defensive type of troops as I understand it) being a highly inexpensive stopgap to fill the lines when the russian juggernaut gets rolling and the conscripts are everywhere. Perhaps they could pop out of medic bunkers regardless of tier, reversing the trend of cheap troops dying and better ones returning to the front, which doesn't seem to have been the way things worked on the ostfront. The axis invasion force was after all highly trained, likely to a standard not held again in the german forces, and most of the units at the outset of war with Russia had already seen combat in France, Africa, or wherever. Maybe it's not practical for balance, but it's a thought. Particularly the volks respawning from dead grenadiers would encourage the crafty german player to minimize his casualties to preserve the quality of his troops, which would have been a major concern of german field commanders in Russia from what I've read. Lastly, the panzer elite seem to need help. I would suggest at least one extra man per squad, with a corresponding increase in training cost. They have no viable suppression that works against the russian horde, and trying to fight 14 conscripts, regardless of how many rifles they have, with three or six men is woeful.
Thanks again for all your great work, and please keep it up!
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tl;dr
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Disagree with the sniper change.
It's a unique concept, lets work with it.
They need a Price increase to match other snipers (350mp mby 400 considering you dont need munitions)
Decrease health on the squad. Make them more fragile considering we have to wade into the human waves to get at them. Bikes should be a counter to these teams.
Give them the sniper tracer round so they are easier to find and identify at the first shot. (with no tracer, squad members just die and untill i see the squad, i dont know im under fire by snipers. If your not paying attention, half a squad is gone before you know it or have a chance to retreat)
Also, add in there that ingenery build wayyy too fast, and to decrease the Russian starting manpower. That way you cant get 4 ingenery out and on the field by minute 1, where all they have to fight are pios, and soon after, mby a volk.
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This is hilarious. Russians are stronger that their Axis counterparts at every point in the game, except a tiny window when PE have halftracks before Russians have PTRDs.
I sincerely have to wonder what the balanced testers did the entire time this was in development. This mod has incredible content, but the balance is worse than a joke.
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I still think the problem is having the possibility of training an unlimited number of ingenery at the start. Conscripts seem to be worse, somehow, since even though they are more men, they are also more expensive.
I reiterate my opinion that the best way of stopping the "improper spam" (spamming ingenery instead of conscripts), would be limiting the number of ingenery you can train until you have purchased the SN-42 armour, which makes ingenery into frontline troops.
Let´s say that you could train four ingenery squads at the start of the game. This forces you to build the Infantry Tent and then go for conscripts, since you can´t fight back only with Ingenery.
Then, after buying the SN-42 body armor upgrade, you can train as many Ingenery as you need to do what you want them to do (assault, normally).
Then again, there is no real reason to remove the limit on how many Ingenery can be built once the upgrade is purchased. I mean, the Ingenery with PPSH and/or flamethrowers are pretty damn resilient and powerful, while still being cheap on the mp department.
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No, the correct solution to that problem is to nerf Ingenery through the fucking floor. You don't see unvetted Engies or Pios used as frontline troops ever, so I dont see why unupgraded Ingenery should be able to trade blows with frontline infantry.
Take two of their rifles off them, lower their suppression threshhold.
The SN-42 upgrade is a little bit too strong as well. It basically turns them into something even stronger than piospam, which was already too strong. While I like the idea of double flamethrowers, tying everything the USSR player needs to turn his already too strong builders into assault troops on crack to the one upgrade is sloppy balance.
At which point the dev team decided that their "Weak early game" faction's builders should be on crack and stronger than the other factions' builders is beyond me.
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Ingenery are one of the units we are nerfing in the new patch.
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I think sniper teams shouldn't be built that fast as well.
Compared to the Wehr/USA sniper, it buidls like soo fast, its so spammable.
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How the hell did this make it out of beta balance testing?
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most of the things i wasn't happy about in the beta are still in.
ISU to strong, ATrifle damage vs buildings, building speed of most units, availability of arty for all doctrines, free arty in command squad (now it is with reset timer), Hotkeys overlapping, OP end tree abilities (god of war, il-runs), ...
So i can't tell you why those stuff is still in there. Perhaps some people decided new Sides have to be OP. Same way with Brits and PE after CoH-OF beta. same waywith kangaroo and geschützwagen during ToV release.
in the end it is only sad, because isn't it obvious that something is totally wrong.
Some time it seems the russians have all possible abilities available in the game without the thinking if this is necessary.
I really love the design, the textures, the way all works, the new concept of a non retreating faction, but i don't like many in game balancing aspects. Sometimes it seems it isn't balanced at all.
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thank you warty for responding to the posts, will we know when the patch is released or will it happen without warning and without a set time of release?
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-mostpeople
i totally agree its a shame to the people who made the great skins models voiceacting and units, that the balance testers allowed it to be released like this. The soviets build everything too fast make units to fast. Ingenery body armor is really powerful especially against flak 88s. The IS-2 is crazy fast to build and is available insanely early in the game (how bout putting an extra upgrade for the tank hall to be able to build it like with marders) and is cheap. The free arty is insane i heard people saying you shouldnt get it till t3 which i think is a good idea, also its awfully strong i lost a full health volks squad and 2 full health mgs to one strike, thats like 700 man power for a free attack. i also had an mg in a factory building with half health and the arty leveled it. make it more like the off map mortar barrages the german officer calls in but for sure make it later in the game, also alot of your maps have way to much fuel especially since holding all the fuels all that can stop IS-2 spam uhh... thats all for now, maybe make it so ingenery get 1 flamethrower?
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I also fully support Ingenery nerf, starting manpower nerf, and tiered unlock abilities for the command squad but if all of these suggestions were implemented at once Russians would have a tough time early game, perhaps necessarily. However, if this were to be done, late game would have to be buffed slightly. This would make sense since the Russians were supposed to be the late game powerhouse of the allies. So I propose, rather than make their late units better since they are already quite balanced (excl. ISU, certain abilities etc) how about having a repeatable research that allows them to trade fuel/munitions for manpower. This might represent troops brought in by rail from the East.
I could see numerous new strategies opening up with this kind of thing. Say you were not doing so great in a 1v1 with less map control due to some failed attacks that couldnt be auto-won with heroic charge (if it were pushed to tier2) and reduced starting manpower, you could make a choice of whether to tech to tanks or go with an infantry heavy comeback by using the train reinforcements. This would alleviate some of the linear teching with Russians and providing some interesting variety of fuel use.
Also, if the capping speed were to be reduced , I was thinking that instead of op's, having conscripts have the ability to lock down a sector may be interesting. 200 manpower is the appropriate amount for an op, but maybe an additional muni/fuel cost should have to be upgraded to compensate for the firepower of the troops and further support the Russian endgame. Yet again this opens up more strategic possibilities of what to tech for.
All in all, a great mod/expansion. Myself and others are having a fantastic time both as and against the Russians.
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Ingenery, T-90, Tank Riders, Starting manpower, KV-2 and ISU-152 updated.
"diversification to how the infantry and tank units look" This is not a fashion show, the units are supposed to look alike.
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I agree with most of the changes you guys are listing. I like the idea of giving the tanks a little buff, either in power or accuracy, and making the IS2 cost more. Right now the sniper spam is atrocious, build time and cost should be increased alot. the mortar needs to fire slightly slower, and the officer artillary is insane!!!! I repeat INSANE! It should come later in the game, have a longer cooldown, and probably do slightly less damag to bunkers or houses. The steamroller 1 to to hits werchmact buildings. I also strongly hope the add more diversifcation to how the infantry and tank units look. Othen than that Im good, new maps are great, I love the doc trees, the only improvement would be flipping the partisans for the booby trap, and maybe the katushya should cost a little more. Like said earlier you dont want to nerf everything about the russians at once, but you do want to be clear are they powerful early or late?
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Not entirely sure if this has been suggested through all the topics i've been reading on balance. But perhaps once upgraded with body armour, the Ingenery could have a penalty alike to British infantry in enemy sectors without an Lt. I.e they move at only walking pace regardless of sector control. This may prevent people from spamming them as much and remove the need for a cap.
It seems that with a double flamethrower upgrade they are just too strong. Perhaps a cap on the amount of Ingenery available until the armour is purchased to prevent too much early game spam. Yet since it's only the body armour makes them move slow, the early game Russian wouldn't be too effected.
Of course this is only subject to this kind of coding being able to be implemented.
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i think the IS-2 should maybe be special like tiger/pershing? at least with some limit so you can only get two of them.
The Ostheer also can only get two Tigers maximum. SO should it be or the IS roo.
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wasnt the patch announced for today or sth?
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The IS-2 is the equal of panther not tigers. The ISU-152 is the equal of jagdpanther.
The soviet abilities should not be free in my opinion, the reason why so many upgrades in vcoh cost manpower and some fuel instead of munitions is to balance map resources. If you don't spend alot of time laying mines you always get flooded by munitions. I really think that abilities should cost ammo too but not as much as other armies. I can't see any logic in the current upgrade system. To compensate for this they should also be given the ability to build OPs preferably in some unique way.
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HAS ANY ONE SEEN THOSE BOOMING RUN yet?
5 planes with booms dropping.,. its insane`
and it dosent cost 600 munition to use?
WTF..
the american ones like 250 munition...
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The IS-2 is the equal of panther not tigers.
wait..what? how can you say that, the IS-2 was particularly designed as a counterpart to the tiger... it's armor and gun was superior too.
What else is supposed to be the equal of Tigers?...please don't tell me it's the ISU-152 that was a friggin artillery -.-!
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Plus the ISU-152 doesn't have a counterpart currently. The Jagdpanther is the closest but really needs support. And considering the manpower penalties the Jagd imposes and the fact you can only ever call in 1 seems to make it not really stack up against the 152.
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Great job,I think its an awsome mod!! I have played many games now and dont feel the russians are OP at all,the 1st couple games,got my azz handed to me,but once I learned their strong and weak points and altered my stratagy,it became a much closer game. I would hate to see it change too much and become exactly like the other factions.
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Dangit, watch the replay from this thread and then come back and say that.
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=1878.0 (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=1878.0)
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i think all infantry must be balanced 2 wermacht ot try to play as soviets against expert wermacht big chase 2 loose any way
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I was picking through the Mod's RGDs, and id like to point out some discrepancies between the heavy tanks. For those of you who dont know, RGDs are the game files and they NEVER lie.
IS-2 Statistics
Health: 1500 (lol, k)
Armor_type: pershing
Gun_type: d-25-t_122mm/150 dmg/ Reload Max/min: 10
Tiger Stats
Health: 1064
Armor_type: Tiger
Gun_type: kwk36_88mm/ 137.5/ Reload max/min: 6 seconds
Pershing Stats
Health: 990
Armor_type: Pershing
Gun: 137.5 dmg/ Reload max/min: 6 seconds
Panther Stats
Health: 742
Armor_type: Panther
Gun: 137.5 dmg/ Reload max/min: 7 seconds
Ok, now, what we have here is a buildable non doctrinal russian heavy tank that has at the least a 436HP discrepancy when compared to the Tiger
Yes, it has pershing armor, so you take it out as you would a pershing, but it's a buildable pershing, and it has 1500 Health
This is why the IS2 rapes hard.
It has twice the health of a panther and is legitimately cheaper to build. It has 100 more health than the ISU-152, the Soviet super tank, which has 1400 health and Jadgpanther armor. The Jadgpanther has 1600 health, and the KT has 2k health.
Lower the god damn health, it's a buildable pershing.
Either raise the price or drop the HP, but I would prefer both, b/c it far outclasses any heavy tank in the game.
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Yep, I think IS-2 must be doctrine called tank.
But strange, that he has so high fire rate (must be low), andso weak gun (D-25T was stronger than that of Tiger). We here have 122mm gun is weaker than 75mm gun of Panther.
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yep the russians have enough buildable tank variations like T34-76 and upgrade to T34-86 or SU85 upgrade to su100 or a light armored tank
remove the is2 from tank hall and make it a doctrinal unit
but unfortunately the soviet tank doctrine still has a non hardcap op super tank like the isu156
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IS-2 is due to be adjusted, I know. However the reload time you've desplayed isn't correct it's more like 9 which is why it fires alot slower than german tanks.
The updated version will be more on a par with the Panther
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IMHO IS-2 should go to ISU-152 place (as that doctr. is "tanky overall")
ISU-152 should go to KV-2 place as a heavy self-propelled howitzer/Artill
And KV-2 must be thrown to garbage.
Now, with new patch, german snipers rule, Sov's have nothing to counterpart.
4 snipers+two dowble flamer engies = clearing oll through the map...
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I agree, this would also make the SU-85 more useful, but i don't think they are changing it.
Soviet snipers work if you use ambush, that and the mortar, fast T-90 is also a good counter. It would be nice if they added a bike but if you have an american/british teammate it's not a problem anymore.
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When talking about nerfing IS-2 u have to keep in mind that Axis have Shreks and u can't compare the ppsh to a shrek at all. And u don't counter a IS-2 with unsupported tanks. Axis used to have the strongest tanks ingame for so long - now this time is over and that isn't bad at all(not being a fanfboy of some sort). Now, u dont spam just vet 3 Panthers and Tigers and its gg - but u have to work hard to get ur win. As a conclusion: If u nerf IS-2s plz remain reasonable.
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When talking about nerfing IS-2 u have to keep in mind that Axis have Shreks and u can't compare the ppsh to a shrek at all.
The damage Schrecks make to IS-2s is negligible unless you do it with two or three squads at the same time, and the IS-2 remains still.
Late Russian tanks seem to be a bit too tough, nevermind the monstrous ISU-152.
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btw. can russians now pick up axis weapons? since I saw some squads last game carrying schreks,or could they do that before also? I dont know was it a command squod or what...
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They have always been able to 'pick up' weapons. 'Recrewing' is where we have the problem.
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the is2 should fire way slower then any german tank because in real life itsd huge shells and bad loading system restricted its ROF.
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IS-2 is due to be adjusted, I know. However the reload time you've desplayed isn't correct it's more like 9 which is why it fires alot slower than german tanks.
There might be another modifer at work then, to keep the post from getting to large, i just looked at the reload. It might have a wind up time but thats usually not the case with most tanks.
-Updated stats post. Was looking at the wrong 122mm gun
IS-2 Reload is 10 seconds.