Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: maddog0002 on January 23, 2010, 04:27:46 AM
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For balance team. Please take the time to read this, balancing this mod is not just about nerfing a bunch of units, you have to look at the layout of the army, which has quite clearly not been done.
problem 1, unlocking buildings
The mechanics of this game are horrible, you can build a barracks then tank depot that can straight away pump out some of the best tanks in the game? with no tecing in between? Every other army in the game has to tec?
Solution 1
Look at the wehrmacht, they can build two buildings to start with, then they have to tec to be able to build the next one, and so on.
Here is an idea for you, increase the cost of the Armory to 200mp and 35 fuel, make all upgrades in it cost MP and fuel instead of Muni (Muni is meant for the use of abilities, not buying them), so that the prices are like the Wehrmacht vetting prices, and change the cost of each upgrade in the Armory depending on how much they increase the effectiveness of what they are upgrading etc.
The Tank depot and WSC cannot be built until the Armory is, and the WSC now costs 200mp and 15 fuel, the IS-2 and artillery fire base cannot be built until an upgrade in the Armory is performed, a cost of around 100mp and 35 fuel. The IS-2 now costs 600mp and 120 fuel, and the artillery fire base now costs 450mp and 85 fuel to compensate. Strelky squads become unlocked after the Armory is built.
Problem 2, Doctrines and XP points
The Russian doctrines allow you to have late game units, such as the katyusha, much to early, and for not enouph XP points and for not enough POP or MP, did you also take into consideration that since Russians are constantly losing men, that they will be getting lots of XP points, meaning Russians can unlock their command trees very fast, their conscripts in mass can devastate infantry squads like that in an OP way! meaning more XP, faster.
Solution 2
re-evaluated the set up of some of the command trees, increase the XP points that are required to buy units like the katyusha or move it down a bit the doctrine ladder so it comes in much later on. Doctrine abilities like for the motherland and red tide now cost 50 munitions to use, just like for the fatherland, same goes for all other abilities like these ones.
problem 3, abilities and tecing
Free abilities? Just because Russian tecing costs are so munitions heavy does not mean you should give them free defensive artillery that can be used anywhere and be available from the first unit you build. First of all, tecing should not cost muni, it should cost fuel and MP, and abilities should cost muni, not nothing.
Solution 3
The command squads abilities cannot be used until the Armory has been built, and the arty strike now costs 125 munitions, charge and binoculars now cost 20 munitions each. Molotov's and all grenade like abilities must cost at least 20 munitions to use.
And like I said before, all the research that can be done in the armory must be changed so it costs Fuel and MP, as munitions is used for abilities, not research.
If this is implemented, then individual units won't need as much tweaking, this is the main reason why the Russians are so OP at the moment, I'm sure you aware but here is a list of every unit that is seriously OP.
OP Units
1.Mortar is not a mortar, but an extremely mobile artillery piece with no cool down that comes out after 5 mins, since its 120mm, it should do more damege than all the other mortars in the game, but right now its free 120mm arty.
2.The sniper is far too cheap, the price should be up'ed to 340mp like all other snipers.
3.Conscripts are simply to effective for their price, either Nerf their effectiveness so that 2 conscript squads can only just take out a grenadier squad (And once grens get vet, conscripts should not stand a chance). Or increase their price to 240mp, and increase their build time.
4.Conscripts capping speed must be reduced to .75
5.Igenerny capping speed should be 1.
6.Command squads and strelky squads should cap at 1
7.And gaurds should cap at 1.5
8.The t-70 and T-90 should cost 270mp and 30 fuel.
9. Russian super tanks should have a limmit of 1 at a time.
10. T34 should cost 400mp and 80 fuel.
11. The ISU needs a damege output nerf.
12. The katyusha neeeds to be a later game unit, and cost more MP.
13. Gaurds need to cost 375mp.
14. Strelky need to cost 280mp.
15. ISU, 1 time call in, 500mp.
16. Conscripts take up 5 pop cap, to prevent spamming.
17. the barracks needs to cost 200mp and 15 fuel, making it 100mp in the first place was just stupid and increases the chance for spamming of conscripts.
18. When the Russian HQ is destroyed, there is no ability to call in engins to repair it.
This is what is required for balance, not the nerfing of every unit.
Bugs
1. you can que up command squads, but only one will be finished.
2. Conscripts should show the amount of men they have left in their squad, ingerney also have this issue.
3. If Wher, PE, US or british capture a Russian weapon, then they cannot retreat.
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First off, the Soviets were always meant to have munition upgrades with free abilities with long cooldown, its just how they roll. I do agree though, command points need to be bumped up universally by 1 or 2.
Your points at the end, only 1, 2 and 4-7 are needed.
Finally i do agree, command squad arty needs to be reworked and teching needs to be applied to soviets somehow.
Everthing you said about abilities needing to cost anything is rubbish as that is how the soviets work period
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Abilitys and field upgrades cost munitions, upgrades ordered from buildings cost MP and Fuel, its basic CoH facts.
Russains should pay for their abilitys just like every other army, other wise people wont think and use them willy nilly, knowing that it didn't cost them a sent.
Giving abilitys long recharge times wont fix the fact that they are free, because you will still have the resourses which you should have just spent on the ability. In original CoH if you use a granade and miss, thats your problem, in EF is you use a granade and miss, it cost you nothing and you still have resourses to tec with.
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That takes away half of the perks of being Russian, their advantage to having a mass of weak units is the fact that you can use abilities sparingly throughout without having to pay a million munitions to keep your crappy infantry alive. Increasing the doctrines a point higher universally is a good idea but remember that the exp you receive, the enemy killing it is getting more for each kill. I agree with the fact that maybe you need to a scrapyard or some generic building like the supply depot and just add the tank upgrades there as well as making the tanks a little more costly to produce.
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I actually understand exactly what the OP is referring to, but we have slightly different views on how it should be taken care of.
Every faction in CoH has to spend fuel on abilities that augment their infantry and vehicles. PE has upgrades such as group zeal, inc squad sizes,etc... Amer has BARs, Nades, etc..., Wehr has veterancy. You get what im saying.
All that SU spends fuel on is to tech and to purchase vehicles. Thats it. This, along with some of the other design decisions need to be looked at.
HERES ONE OF MY PROPOSITIONS
Remove the idea that "vet is integrated" into the units already. The armory now functions similar to Wehr vet, but is on a more individual unit basis. I think each upgrade should be in 3 Tiers for each units, costing Muni+Fuel to purchase each tier after the first. Heres an example.
Ingenery starts with 2 rifles and 4 men, putting them more in the role of a weak builder unit.
Tier 1 upgrade; cost X muni: Ing now has 4 rifles giving them the firepower, but not survivability of a vanila conscripts squad.
Tier 2 upgrade; cost X muni 10 fuel: Ing now has the survivability of a conscript squad and repairs faster (call it armor if you want)
Tier 3 upgrade; cost X muni 20 fuel: Adds a 5th unit with field medic training allows Ings to heal nearby squads at the cost of muni.
These are rough ideas i came up with just now on the spot. All upgrades would be global and instant. Unit preservation needs to be reinstated with SU instead of the "no retreat" design currently. These along with many other ideas i have for design based on their current design would allow SU to integrate more easily into CoH.
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That takes away half of the perks of being Russian, their advantage to having a mass of weak units is the fact that you can use abilities sparingly throughout without having to pay a million munitions to keep your crappy infantry alive.
Fair enouph, but mass Conscripts are not shit, infact they can quite effectivly kill PGs and volks, and even grens.
Increasing the doctrines a point higher universally is a good idea but remember that the exp you receive, the enemy killing it is getting more for each kill.
Ya I know, but Russain doctrines dont require as much XP to get good things as the enemy killing you, that was were I was comming from withthat argument.
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I agree the tech system is the problem. Only 150 fuel is spent for the extra 2 buildings and you unlocked all the units. Even if all the units were balanced, it's still a bad way of teching. It's always the same buildings order and you always unlock all the units, never think what you need and what not like american and axis factions (and even brits that not always go for t3). Russians have nothing to do with their fuel so they will always end up building t1->t2->t3 unlocking all the units.
My suggestion:
Give tier upgrades for each building. When you build any building you will have access only to tier 1 units from it. upgrades from t1 to t2 and t2 to t3 of each building will cost some fuel. You will still need to have 2 buildings to upgrade a building to tier 2, and 3 buildings to upgrade a building to tier 3. This way, if you want better infantry, you'll spend some fuel on upgrading the infantry tent, or invest first in better armors. It will also prevent the current situation that when you build the tank building, you unlock the light armor together with IS-2.
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Ever played the soviet?
IS-2 need EITHER mustering tent + tank depot OR WSC + Tank Depot.
Same with guards / strelky. They need WSC or tank Depot to be unlocked. The Mortar and AT Inf is available after the Mustering Tent has been built.
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As of now people are just using conscripts instead of the inf that is supposed to superceed their role: Strelky and Guards. On another not has anyone used the red banner strelky let me tell you vs inf they are on the verge of OPness and in hordes(shudder)
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As of now people are just using conscripts instead of the inf that is supposed to superceed their role: Strelky and Guards. On another not has anyone used the red banner strelky let me tell you vs inf they are on the verge of OPness and in hordes(shudder)
Agreed. Conscripts should be an early-maybe-mid game infantry - right now they're being used all over the place. I think fundamentally this is a problem because of the venterancy system that's in place for the Soviets. There are levels of veterancy but the units that its applied to have different roles.
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I had no trouble dealing with SMG Strelkys using MP44 Pgrens. Just one squad against two Strelkys was enough.
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Intresting, also in my last post I meant to type note instead of not
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Ever played the soviet?
IS-2 need EITHER mustering tent + tank depot OR WSC + Tank Depot.
You miss read, I said that once barracks and Tank depo are built that russains can pump out some of the best tanks in the game, such as the T34, and when it gets upgunned its really powerful, and very cheap.
Same with guards / strelky. They need WSC or tank Depot to be unlocked. The Mortar and AT Inf is available after the Mustering Tent has been built.
I know, but conscripts last the entire game, especily once they are upgraded with extra rifles, conscripts are ment to be dieing all the time (according to the description of the soviets on this site), and there for should be forceing you to tec to gaurds and strelky squads. Unfortuantly since conscripts are so effective theres no reason to have to tec up to better infantry, leaveing you more reasorces to get underpriced tanks.
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From your very first post it sounds like all you want is the Soviets to be turned into the same old CoH factions instead of keeping the Soviets unique in their differences.
I Disagree with most of your suggestions, but Teching buildings and altering prices of units and the XP You need to receive your special abilities may be a good idea.
Honostly though, we should stop tearing his argument into shreds until the Developers of this mod have had a chance to read it and figure out what they want to do to balance this game because ultimately its their decision, and he does have at least a few valid points.
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NO developer has replyed to your thread. :) i wonder if your wonderful suggestions will be taken into even consideration..
or its just all about the glory of monther land super power and freak artierly, SUper powerful tanks, instant pop smoke, super engineer army with body armour. that comes way too cheap, 200 man power :S ... its like 10 times better then a pio squard.. a joke fest :p
love this mod. but loving the balance even more !
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The muni vs cooldown time debate wouldn't be an issue if the cooldown times were longer, and if sharpshooters, katyusha's, etc. were limited to say 2 each. I find that as SU, I'm constantly low on muni's, while as Brits/US I'm usually floating 500
The biggest issues I've seen are:
1. The IS-2's are ridiculously cheap. Per unit, they're roughly the same as a Panther, but since Wehr for example needs to tech up their HQ just to build a Panzer command, they're spending alot of fuel, not to mention the fuel needed to get t2 and veterancy, which is a must when dealing with SU infantry blob. Meanwhile you can get a IS-2 on the field with less than 200 fuel.
2. The early game blobs are a problem. Havings conscripts only costing 1 cap is ridiculous. they should be at least 4. Ingenery are also being pumped out too fast. Some slight tweaks to their cap/building speed will help alot.
All that said, I like to commend the dev's on a fantastic job, and am looking forward to seeing how they deal (or not deal) with the balance issues. I'll be playing this mod for a long time.
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Don't forget decreasing starting MP, decreasing production speed of Ingenery (they come out faster than pios), and changing the "Close Combat" upgrade from the Urban Combat tree to 100 munitions and 2 CPs.
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i totally agree
to lower that "uber" early game of russians the amount of starting MP ressources and lower build time
its almost impossible to win 2vs1 at with the starting units after 2 minutes
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From your very first post it sounds like all you want is the Soviets to be turned into the same old CoH factions instead of keeping the Soviets unique in their differences.
Russians will still be a completly different faction to all others even if everything I said was implemented. But the EF team have changed CoH into something else by making the Russians work the way they do now, Munitions buys abilitys and feild upgrades, not global upgrades. It just doesn't feel like I'm playing CoH with everything like this, changing these things will not make the Russians like every other faction, it will balance them and make them feel like CoH again.
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why dont we just play and use the abilities in favour while the opponent looks for a countermeasurement? Yesterday i start building 2pio-mg-bike-mg-mg and i was overrushed by snipers early game. Next time i'm gonna be sure that won't happen again. So let's play the way the modders made it before we start to bring more imbalance in the game then there migth be in already.
I'm following the imbalance-topic since i play coh for nearly 2 yrs now, and every change wasn't, imo, an improvement....
On the other side, i would like that possible bugs are wept out of the game, i had a tank digging in at some point, but while digging in she ran towards the german tiger and got destroyed. That annoys me more then conscripts capping so fast.
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Katyusha=late game unit?
Are you kidding me?
They can barely do decent damage with 3 firing at once
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Katyusha=late game unit?
Are you kidding me?
They can barely do decent damage with 3 firing at once
No I'm not kidding you, a single misile from a barrage instantkly killed one of my storm trooper squads after hitting them. Also, the Storm trooper squad had vet 2, so that also means they have Elite armor. and still it was destroyed, along with a volks sqaud and an MG42 squad.
So thats 375mp+75m PS+260mp MG42+280mp volks dead from 2 simultaneous Katyusha barrages. Thats 600mp, for 2 units that will easiliy pay for themselfs in no time.
As far as I can see they are much different to a coliope, apart from their extreamly low price, and the fact that they can come with in the first 10 mins is rediculas.
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I will be 100% honest as a very experienced CoH player. These guys are making an "expansion" type mod for a game that has already been out and developed for a very long time.
There are already game mechanics put into place that work (retreat, unit preservation, teching costs, unit upgrades) and you need to design your faction around those game rules. Your faction does not need to create its own rules or it will not adopt well into the community.
If you dont believe me then just look at the brits :D
In order to make a faction play differently... all you have to do is chance these things: Teching, Veterancy, Where you buy units and what they do, and How each unit works together and individually. Thats it.
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I will be 100% honest as a very experienced CoH player. These guys are making an "expansion" type mod for a game that has already been out and developed for a very long time.
There are already game mechanics put into place that work (retreat, unit preservation, teching costs, unit upgrades) and you need to design your faction around those game rules. Your faction does not need to create its own rules or it will not adopt well into the community.
If you dont believe me then just look at the brits :D
In order to make a faction play differently... all you have to do is chance these things: Teching, Veterancy, Where you buy units and what they do, and How each unit works together and individually. Thats it.
+1
The new units and doctries are diffrent enough.
Which the other factions you must choose between upgrades that can help you now or teching fast, which means that you constantly have to be aware of what your opponent is doing.
The reason this has been change is not because it is better that is cost munition, but because it is different.
I would also like if you could upgrade your buildings the way it had been suggested in this thread, but it is important that you still need the buildings before you make this upgrade, otherwise we would have guard squad way to early in the game.
When this is changed we will have a couple of days which very bad balance, but in the end it will create a much better mod. I hope the EF team has the courage to make this important redesign of the faction fast, otherwise I predict that high level players will keep whingeing about this until they give up and leave the mod.
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There are already game mechanics put into place that work (retreat, unit preservation, teching costs, unit upgrades) and you need to design your faction around those game rules. Your faction does not need to create its own rules or it will not adopt well into the community.
If you dont believe me then just look at the brits :D
In order to make a faction play differently... all you have to do is chance these things: Teching, Veterancy, Where you buy units and what they do, and How each unit works together and individually. Thats it.
Umm......thats exaccly what I'm trying to say :D EF team are changing the game too much by making the russians how they are now. I'm trying to provide some help on how to chnage the russians so they are not too different that they break the game, but not to much of the same old thing that they are boring.
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I will be 100% honest as a very experienced CoH player. These guys are making an "expansion" type mod for a game that has already been out and developed for a very long time.
There are already game mechanics put into place that work (retreat, unit preservation, teching costs, unit upgrades) and you need to design your faction around those game rules. Your faction does not need to create its own rules or it will not adopt well into the community.
If you dont believe me then just look at the brits :D
In order to make a faction play differently... all you have to do is chance these things: Teching, Veterancy, Where you buy units and what they do, and How each unit works together and individually. Thats it.
+1
Developers, please listen to this person because he is 100% correct. I am a lvl 10 to 11 with all factions in ranked 1v1's. I believe the Russian faction will still be different enough to the others, even if it follows the core COH mechanics. You can also add 'healing' and 'body collection' to the list of things which seperates the factions.
Healing: US have a medic station which costs fuel and gives free healing to all units around it, WM need to heal their units individually for a munis cost, PE can buy healing at their base or a forward HQ, and british have a medic station and healing in one building which costs fuel, and heals everyone around it for a munis cost. Atm, the Russian healing method is different and interesting, having the medic truck that costs fuel and has a healing aura.
Body collection: WM, US and brits all have medics which pick up bodies and give a new squad when enough bodies are collected. Different factions require different number of bodies, and this is made even more interesting with the fact that WM can spawn veteraned units, US can spawn upgraded rifles, but brits can only spawn vanilla infantry sections. PE on the other hand, which is vehicle based, have the bergertiger to salvage destroyed vehicles. I believe the Russian faction should have some sort of body collection mechanic as well.
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I agree with the last few posters. While some of the gameplay features introduced with the mod were cool from an outside perspective (like no retreat), once I got around to actually playing the Soviet faction it felt lacking in the tactical department. This is unfortunately hampered by things like not being able to recrew weapon systems (through no fault of the developers) and it was yet another notch which made Soviet gameplay more wooden.
When I am playing the vanilla factions I always have to make decisions during a battle. Should I retreat? Should I fall back a bit? Are my units too close together? Can I pull of some crazy commando style shit with a squad and take out a building? For the most part, I am not asking these questions with the Soviet faction because I don't have to.
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No russian body collector please.
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Apparently mechanics can salvage tank wrecks in the latest patch, so body collection is unecessaty now. This makes it fair, now both allies and axis have body collection and vehicle salvaging.
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if you want crazy commando shit get a partisan
They can make demo charges while camoflagued.
And one charge takes out everything short of the HQ
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the thing is that in coh reg the units are counters of each other a sherman unupgraded is equal to a same vet stug while upgraded it is equal to a panzer IV the the panther being there for a better armor unit so as to reflect the better german tanks that is why half the people like coh the basic american unit is equal to 1 unit but can be upgraded to equal the next in line with the germans always having a better
volk=rifle squad grendiers=bar riflemen knight cross beats both
stug=sherman panzer IV=upgraded sherman panther beats sherman
m8=puma armored m8=upgunned puma the new armored car in tov<flackpanzer
but the americans have a trick up there sleeve the m10-18 to flank and ambush tanks and the croc was suppost to beat infentry
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"11. The ISU needs a damege output nerf.
12. The katyusha neeeds to be a later game unit, and cost more MP."
I totally disagree : ISU takes 15 seconds before shooting again and it is easy to flank it with schrecks or Panther.
The katyusha is shit, easy to counter (mortar nebel or even pios can kill it), has not many rockets, hardcapped at 3, don't make many damage (unless you spam spam spam a lot but that is a bit noob.
"10. T34 should cost 400mp and 80 fuel."
Not at all Panzer 4 owns T34 and panzer 4 can be vetted, T34 not, that tank is not resistant; pak from t2 owns it and its power against infantery is limited.
With the last patch Soviet union is no more overpowered. If you can't beat it, it means that you have to find another strategy.
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"10. T34 should cost 400mp and 80 fuel."
Not at all Panzer 4 owns T34 and panzer 4 can be vetted, T34 not, that tank is not resistant; pak from t2 owns it and its power against infantery is limited.
Ok, stop, the T34 is not shit, have you ever used one, they have some brilliant anti infantry capability, and even more so when they are ungunned. Not to mention they can get a global upgrade that makse their main guns a shit load more effective.
With the last patch Soviet union is no more overpowered. If you can't beat it, it means that you have to find another strategy.
I can beat them, but that doesn't mean that they are not OP still, I was playing vs 2 lv8 russian players the other day, I should have handed their areses to them, but instead I was uber spammed by about 15 squads of conscripts from both russians together, this was after about the 2-3 min mark. And i was pushed back by their free arty and noob spam, ended up being a long game, were (I was PE) I was able to call in 4 panthers and a jag panther and my allie (Who was pretty shit) built lots of ostwinds (And lost all of them in the end) to help with killing the infantry, and we only JUST finished their spam and tank spam up.
I Have a replay if ya want it, but the point is if I can only JUST beat two noobie lv8s, then russians are OP still.
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"10. T34 should cost 400mp and 80 fuel."
Not at all Panzer 4 owns T34 and panzer 4 can be vetted, T34 not, that tank is not resistant; pak from t2 owns it and its power against infantery is limited.
Ok, stop, the T34 is not shit, have you ever used one, they have some brilliant anti infantry capability, and even more so when they are ungunned. Not to mention they can get a global upgrade that makse their main guns a shit load more effective.
With the last patch Soviet union is no more overpowered. If you can't beat it, it means that you have to find another strategy.
I can beat them, but that doesn't mean that they are not OP still, I was playing vs 2 lv8 russian players the other day, I should have handed their areses to them, but instead I was uber spammed by about 15 squads of conscripts from both russians together, this was after about the 2-3 min mark. And i was pushed back by their free arty and noob spam, ended up being a long game, were (I was PE) I was able to call in 4 panthers and a jag panther and my allie (Who was pretty shit) built lots of ostwinds (And lost all of them in the end) to help with killing the infantry, and we only JUST finished their spam and tank spam up.
I Have a replay if ya want it, but the point is if I can only JUST beat two noobie lv8s, then russians are OP still.
I have no choice but to agree with him... :-[
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I second this
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I third this
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What some people here dont understand is the developers or this expansion mod know what they are doing a lot better than you do.
For all the axis players crying about how OP the Soviets are, just need better strategy and counters. Because I've already seen excellent counters and strategy against Soviets.
The 1.01 patch actually nerfed and balanced the Soviets quite well, with only a couple of exceptions.
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What some people here dont understand is the developers or this expansion mod know what they are doing a lot better than you do.
For all the axis players crying about how OP the Soviets are, just need better strategy and counters. Because I've already seen excellent counters and strategy against Soviets.
The 1.01 patch actually nerfed and balanced the Soviets quite well, with only a couple of exceptions.
Incorrect. They know the ins and out of the engine better. They know how to code and modify the engine better. But they have next to zero knowledge of balancing their faction around the game mechanics of CoH...
They should have came up with a detailed faction design and given it to a panel of "EXPERT" CoH players who have a very strong understanding of every fundamental skillset. I'm willing to bet that some of their ideas would have went through and others canned almost immediately.
In the first day and part of the day after this expansion was released, a friend and I have created an entire faction design that would work very well and have enough differences to have a separate playstyle from the other factions...We might even set out to create our own mod to add in some new factions :D (we took ideas from Easternfront and combined them with ideas of our own)
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"10. T34 should cost 400mp and 80 fuel."
Not at all Panzer 4 owns T34 and panzer 4 can be vetted, T34 not, that tank is not resistant; pak from t2 owns it and its power against infantery is limited.
Ok, stop, the T34 is not shit, have you ever used one, they have some brilliant anti infantry capability, and even more so when they are ungunned. Not to mention they can get a global upgrade that makse their main guns a shit load more effective.
With the last patch Soviet union is no more overpowered. If you can't beat it, it means that you have to find another strategy.
I can beat them, but that doesn't mean that they are not OP still, I was playing vs 2 lv8 russian players the other day, I should have handed their areses to them, but instead I was uber spammed by about 15 squads of conscripts from both russians together, this was after about the 2-3 min mark. And i was pushed back by their free arty and noob spam, ended up being a long game, were (I was PE) I was able to call in 4 panthers and a jag panther and my allie (Who was pretty shit) built lots of ostwinds (And lost all of them in the end) to help with killing the infantry, and we only JUST finished their spam and tank spam up.
I Have a replay if ya want it, but the point is if I can only JUST beat two noobie lv8s, then russians are OP still.
Ok 3 shots of pak (T2) = dead T34 (T2.5) . Not that hard to counter, then if you play grenadiers spam, im sorry for you but try something else. Or just send 2 grenadiers with schrecks and you own the T34 :)
Well you say level 8 = noob. Listen, you can be beaten by lower levels than you; that can happen. Im actually lvl 15 ranked 2vs2 wehr with 2 accounts and lvl 14 with 3 other accounts (lvl 13 1vs1). I have already lost against lvl 10 and I don't cry. Same I have good levels with allies or PE (13/14 ranked) and even if I lose against wehr, ; I don't go cry "ahhhhhhhh op op op". That is the game. And since I won against better than I (lvl 16/17) the wehr is not that OP. Lower levels can rank up you know, they can improve ; you are not lvl 8 all your life and maybe they were smurf.
It is the same with Soviet Unoion. The game came out last week and already people complains because they don't know how to own soviet union. They were a bit op (actually the op things were IL2 and God Of war), a patch came, the game is globbaly balanced (maybe there are little things to buff or to nerf) but still you can't win?! What do you want an easy win? Where is the fun? I have actually played 3 game with wehr without the patch, I won the 3 games (it wasn't always easy) . Maybe my opponents were not always very good but anyway, I had fun.
Remember : never surrender! ;)
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1 PE Gren SQuad 255 MP
1 Conscript Squad 200 MP
Yes one on one hands down the Gren will win BUT by time you have 3 Gren Squads the Russians have 1 Command Squad and 3 Conscript squads at the front and another building, they just outnumber them. I saw this when my buddy and I where playing (I was Wehr) I went for a combo Gren PaKs to deal with the T34s it worked... until Shock Guards came along and the two nade throw destroyed 6 Grens (Not squads but actual troops) Vet 3 when he had 6 squads and I had 3... I don't mind the nades being so powerful but it should only be 1 nade not two and the cooldown should be 15seconds longer....and now your gonna say "Your just butt hurt cause you get pwned by the soviets"
my response to that is... I want a challenge when I play as Soviets instead of knowing that all I have to do is Spam Conscripts till I have Shock Guards and IS2...
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Well you say level 8 = noob. Listen, you can be beaten by lower levels than you; that can happen.
No you listen, lv8 is noob ok, simple as that, and I beat them too, what I'm saying is that I only just beat them, and I didn't mention that we had high resourses on, which is an extreamly axis favoured game setting, and even so, we were still losing the entire game untill I got out my first panthers, we only one because they got scared because of how many t34s they were losing, not realising that they probably would have won if they played on.
the game is globbaly balanced (maybe there are little things to buff or to nerf) but still you can't win?! What do you want an easy win? Where is the fun? I have actually played 3 game with wehr without the patch, I won the 3 games (it wasn't always easy) . Maybe my opponents were not always very good but anyway, I had fun.
Why the fuck would I want an easy win against everyone? I want a chalenging game against people of equivelt or better skill level, not against some noobs. Do you know anything about balance?
the game is not globaly balanced.
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had high resourses on, which is an extreamly axis favoured game setting
High ressources favours factions with high spam rates i.e. low unit prices and fast prodution speeds. Guess which faction benefits from this.
I give you a tip: the factions name end with viets.
No wonder you got overrun by loads and loads of conscripts. Do not suggest balance changes not based upon standard game settings (VP 500, standard ressources)-
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High ressources favours factions with high spam rates i.e. low unit prices and fast prodution speeds. Guess which faction benefits from this.
Yes, and it also favours Axis because it alows you to tec much quicker.
No wonder you got overrun by loads and loads of conscripts. Do not suggest balance changes not based upon standard game settings (VP 500, standard ressources)-
Problem with that is all these basic matchers just want to play this HRs no VP bs, I havent got a VP 500 Standard game yet. And even without HRs it is still posible to get lots of conscripts.
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Faster teching does not help you against the soviet at all.
Teching offerings the possibility to "spam" vet 0 grenadiers, which are only slightly better than volks, at least without vet. While your opponent got 3 squads advantage by building his t1 force + the higher capping rate + more time to cap.
Spam > teching. To counter soviets @ high ressources go dual WQ Volk/MG in WQ1 and Volk/MG in WQ2 then 3rd mg and tech.
Not being able to play standard games does not justify changing the soviets.
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Faster teching does not help you against the soviet at all.
Ummmm, the resons we won the game was because, thanks to the high reasorses, we were able to get 2 ostwinds out within the 10 min mark and massacre their spamming infantry, this is due to my allie being able to tec up to T4 much faster than he would have if it were standard reourses.
Faster tecing, and there for being able to pump out better units earlyer than your enemy, is the difference between winning and loseing in high ranked games.
Not being able to play standard games does not justify changing the soviets.
I have played many skirmishes with the proper settings on, and just today I have already played at least 10 games with the proper game settings on, and I can tell you now, this has not effected what I believe should be on my initial post.
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I really do believe that high res favours axis gameplay.
2 g43s or advanced tech is better. and the russians didn't get so much more res right from the start.
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: Best Thing Ever : Foamy The Squirrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJXaKhn4xyU#normal)
Most soviet players still try 1.00 tactics...its going to take a while before you see them develop good/varied tactics/strats like the established factions. Also the ne wpatch will round things up a bit so balance should be in a good level to allow for more extensive games and indepth feedback.
Balance suggestions are great and we take them into considerations as you see in the patches. but the whole 'redesign the faction to my vision' isn't gona happen guys...so stick to balance not design plz
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I love Foamy.
The video says it all.
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: Best Thing Ever : Foamy The Squirrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJXaKhn4xyU#normal)
Well thanks, just thanks for that mate, you really made my day......
Balance suggestions are great and we take them into considerations as you see in the patches. but the whole 'redesign the faction to my vision' isn't gona happen guys...so stick to balance not design plz
This is not redesing, this is balance, if you dont want any help with your balancing, then dont make balance forums. And when someone takes the time to test the mod, come to the forums and post a large summary on how your mod could be better, based on the opinion of expert players and my own testing, how about not throwing it in their face.
The mod will not go far unless it follows the rules of the game, the british did not follow the rules of the game, and they are very much disliked......
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The brits are disliked because they got dull units, useless doctrines and a too linear techtree.
The Russians are fun to play and are fun to face as enemies. No comparison to the British.
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Well you say level 8 = noob. Listen, you can be beaten by lower levels than you; that can happen.
No you listen, lv8 is noob ok, simple as that, and I beat them too, what I'm saying is that I only just beat them, and I didn't mention that we had high resourses on, which is an extreamly axis favoured game setting, and even so, we were still losing the entire game untill I got out my first panthers, we only one because they got scared because of how many t34s they were losing, not realising that they probably would have won if they played on.
the game is globbaly balanced (maybe there are little things to buff or to nerf) but still you can't win?! What do you want an easy win? Where is the fun? I have actually played 3 game with wehr without the patch, I won the 3 games (it wasn't always easy) . Maybe my opponents were not always very good but anyway, I had fun.
Why the fuck would I want an easy win against everyone? I want a chalenging game against people of equivelt or better skill level, not against some noobs. Do you know anything about balance?
the game is not globaly balanced.
What you are saying shows your level : "level 8 is noob". As I said maybe it was a smurf or maybe he is improving. If we have this mentality it means that the level 8 will always be level as the level 20 will be always level 20....
Then you want challenge? Here is yours, try to find new strategies. As you say, panthers came and own everything so the strategy is to go for tanks and to support them with super invisble paks. Then you can tech bach to T3 and get nebels if he spams inf or just get ost.
In early game, cover your mgs by other mgs and pioflammers.
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The brits are disliked because they got dull units, useless doctrines and a too linear techtree.
The Russians has a very linear techtree too, but is overall a better faction, I would suggest that the Russian did not have such a linear techtree because that would make them more fun to play and to face as an enemy.
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This is not redesing, this is balance, if you dont want any help with your balancing, then dont make balance forums. And when someone takes the time to test the mod, come to the forums and post a large summary on how your mod could be better, based on the opinion of expert players and my own testing, how about not throwing it in their face.
The mod will not go far unless it follows the rules of the game, the british did not follow the rules of the game, and they are very much disliked......
Ok, I'll try and clarify this a bit more....
You're not the only 'good player' we have testing the mod(unless you consider yourself better than Kodachrome...or consider him a noob...along with many others). As such, using the 'I'm a higher level therefore I'm right' isn't really a good way to go about it.
What I also expect you to understand(which is where Foamy comes in), is that radical changes you think would suit your 'balance ideal' aren't necessarily correct.
There are a lot of people at your game level(some lower , some higher) who think differently and take everything into consideration.
If you're focusing on 're-design' to affect the balance, you're not really helping as much as you're going down different direction rather than try and balance what is already there.
And please, don't do the 'change it to what I think is best or else...'
Changes are considered and you shouldn't get hung up on 'things will only be right if they do it my way'
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I actually really agree with maddog0002 specifically about his point-
Fuel is for teching.
Munitions are for abilities.
I do not think following these guidelines for EF makes the soviets the "same" as all the rest other than the fact that it would be (as others have said before) following the same rules as the other factions.
I don't understand why it is so necessary to the soviets to use munitions for teching... It has no affect on strategy (making choices between one advantage or another, e.g. grenade or arty strike). Whereas other factions have to tech completely from fuel and manpower while also having to save fuel and manpower to produce units, Soviets have a greatly OPed advantage in teching and production because they split the cost of teching and production. Teching is munitions and fuel is production. This adds to the advantage of being able to tech to tanks faster, because once you get there you have all remaining fuel during the rest of the game to build tanks. Munitions cover the upgrades.
Developers, you made a deliniation between mechanics and balance. This IS a game mechanic that affects balance. It will always affect balance. Why not make it a poll? I believe it would be in the mod's best interest. If players feel that munitions=tech/fuel=only production is unbalanced, they will cease playing. Which nobody wants. Maybe it is best to find out what the general consensus is?
Btw, I really appreciate the work done on this mod and give kudos to all the devolopers for working their a**es off and then listening to everyone critisize their work :]
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Munis for teching is a radical idea that works... IF you give the player a choice.. do I save up for such and such upgrade or do I use the Arty Sniper strike....which will benefit me in the long run better? right now this is the only thing I really have a beef with the russians... once they have all the upgrades they want (I generally go for T34/85 upgrade, Red Banner Strelkys Sturmov Ingenerry, Shock Guards, Forward Spotters) then I don't really need much else.. I occasionally use the PTRD upgrade but it depends on the game
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Problem 2, Doctrines and XP points
The Russian doctrines allow you to have late game units, such as the Kitakyushu, much to early, and for not enough XP points and for not enough POP or MP, did you also take into consideration that since Russians are constantly losing men, that they will be getting lots of XP points, meaning Russians can unlock their command trees very fast, their conscripts in mass can devastate infantry squads like that in an OP way! meaning more XP, faster.
Solution 2
reevaluated the set up of some of the command trees, increase the XP points that are required to buy units like the Katusha or move it down a bit the doctrine ladder so it comes in much later on. Doctrine abilities like for the motherland and red tide now cost 50 munitions to use, just like for the fatherland, same goes for all other abilities like these ones.
problem 3, abilities and tecing
Free abilities? Just because Russian tecing costs are so munitions heavy does not mean you should give them free defensive artillery that can be used anywhere and be available from the first unit you build. First of all, tecing should not cost muni, it should cost fuel and MP, and abilities should cost muni, not nothing.
Solution 3
The command squads abilities cannot be used until the Armory has been built, and the arty strike now costs 125 munitions, charge and binoculars now cost 20 munitions each. Molotov's and all grenade like abilities must cost at least 20 munitions to use.
And like I said before, all the research that can be done in the armory must be changed so it costs Fuel and MP, as munitions is used for abilities, not research.
If this is implemented, then individual units won't need as much tweaking, this is the main reason why the Russians are so OP at the moment, I'm sure you aware but here is a list of every unit that is seriously OP.
OP Units
1.Mortar is not a mortar, but an extremely mobile artillery piece with no cool down that comes out after 5 mins, since its 120mm, it should do more damege than all the other mortars in the game, but right now its free 120mm arty.
2.The sniper is far too cheap, the price should be up'ed to 340mp like all other snipers.
3.Conscripts are simply to effective for their price, either Nerf their effectiveness so that 2 conscript squads can only just take out a grenadier squad (And once grens get vet, conscripts should not stand a chance). Or increase their price to 240mp, and increase their build time.
4.Conscripts capping speed must be reduced to .75
5.Igenerny capping speed should be 1.
6.Command squads and strelky squads should cap at 1
7.And gaurds should cap at 1.5
8.The t-70 and T-90 should cost 270mp and 30 fuel.
9. Russian super tanks should have a limmit of 1 at a time.
10. T34 should cost 400mp and 80 fuel.
11. The ISU needs a damege output nerf.
12. The katyusha neeeds to be a later game unit, and cost more MP.
13. Gaurds need to cost 375mp.
14. Strelky need to cost 280mp.
15. ISU, 1 time call in, 500mp.
16. Conscripts take up 5 pop cap, to prevent spamming.
17. the barracks needs to cost 200mp and 15 fuel, making it 100mp in the first place was just stupid and increases the chance for spamming of conscripts.
18. When the Russian HQ is destroyed, there is no ability to call in engins to repair it.
This is what is required for balance, not the nerfing of every unit.
Bugs
1. you can que up command squads, but only one will be finished.
2. Conscripts should show the amount of men they have left in their squad, ingerney also have this issue.
3. If Wher, PE, US or british capture a Russian weapon, then they cannot retreat.
aha laugh the Katusha sucks man? you need like 4 and they die extremely fast. Putting them down would ruin that branch. As for the Armory what the hell are you talking about up the mp cost and make a fuel cost? i wouldn't mind upping the mp to 150 to slow a weak ass conscript squad from coming out.
The real problem with the game our the fine tune details.
Like how if you lose your barracks when you are currently producing a tank it won't come out. Or if one of your snipers is currently in camouflaged state, and the partner gets killed when you reinforce him he is not camouflaged while you are and one of you is always camouflaged one of you is not i hate that one specifically
Post Merge: January 29, 2010, 12:56:49 AM
[qoute/]
OP Units
1.Mortar is not a mortar, but an extremely mobile artillery piece with no cool down that comes out after 5 mins, since its 120mm, it should do more damege than all the other mortars in the game, but right now its free 120mm arty.
2.The sniper is far too cheap, the price should be up'ed to 340mp like all other snipers.
3.Conscripts are simply to effective for their price, either Nerf their effectiveness so that 2 conscript squads can only just take out a grenadier squad (And once grens get vet, conscripts should not stand a chance). Or increase their price to 240mp, and increase their build time.
4.Conscripts capping speed must be reduced to .75
5.Igenerny capping speed should be 1.
6.Command squads and strelky squads should cap at 1
7.And gaurds should cap at 1.5
8.The t-70 and T-90 should cost 270mp and 30 fuel.
9. Russian super tanks should have a limmit of 1 at a time.
10. T34 should cost 400mp and 80 fuel.
11. The ISU needs a damege output nerf.
12. The katyusha neeeds to be a later game unit, and cost more MP.
13. Gaurds need to cost 375mp.
14. Strelky need to cost 280mp.
15. ISU, 1 time call in, 500mp.
16. Conscripts take up 5 pop cap, to prevent spamming.
17. the barracks needs to cost 200mp and 15 fuel, making it 100mp in the first place was just stupid and increases the chance for spamming of conscripts.
18. When the Russian HQ is destroyed, there is no ability to call in engins to repair it.
This is what is required for balance, not the nerfing of every unit.
Bugs
1. you can que up command squads, but only one will be finished.
2. Conscripts should show the amount of men they have left in their squad, ingerney also have this issue.
3. If Wher, PE, US or british capture a Russian weapon, then they cannot retreat.
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your supposed to spam the damn conscripts its how there played anyone actually CoH player would know how to retaliate to a spam as it does nothing. up mp cost of guards and strelky? are you kidding me they get killed to easily plus they can't retreat Stelky can't even break suppression. without a captain squad around. they have sprint which is helpful when running. Why nerf there tanks there good ones shoot slower than a mountain moving! a panzer can get 5 shots in before it takes its crazy kill blow. Keep as it is. t34 is a useless tank if put against a pak and a player who knows what he is doing can rape a t34 plain and simple they aren't that good. There already slow cappers it takes about 30 seconds to cap a strategic point !! Conscripts why do you hate them they suck period even with teh upgrade most of the time. it takes to two to kill a gren squad. they need ot be supported by a captain squad. Snipers should stay the same snipers are completely fine i only wish you could see heir bullet stream because it is a hell of a lot harder to find them. The mortar is completely fine they need some sort of range power from behind and the mortar takes the cake plus it has a high pop cap i presume with 5 people.
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Good luck balancing this mod guys, i'm sure with some more suggestions from ViserExciser, that it will be done in no time....
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Good luck balancing this mod guys, i'm sure with some more suggestions from ViserExciser, that it will be done in no time....
How 'bout some cheese to your whine?
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the "our way is the best" argument is really silly dont you think and also FULL of hypocrisy.
Also, congrats on mentioning one CoH expert that nobody has heard anything about in forever. (im sure he's still very good though)
You're arguing against redesign of your faction and don't you developers think it's odd that almost everyone has come up with the same solutions to many of the SU factions problems? Do you guys think we all some how collaborated against you....No, we all have merely seen what works and doesn't work with your faction design and used our brains and a bit of theorycrafting to come up with something that works.
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I like your sarcasm maddog and ThreeAngry, you never heard of Kodachrome? You just fail... He is a nice guy though... rather level headed and doesn't make a complete ass out of himself when he speaks...