Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: crytek7 on January 26, 2010, 09:25:20 PM
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Okay, first off the T34 is good balanced in most cases. but quantity is a little bit overrated / exaggerated in the MOD. at the same time the Tiger's superiority is understated.
For example 3 T34s vs 1 Tiger and the Tiger will lose for only one T34 lost. In other words the Tiger is nearly worthless? and when 3 T34s attack one Panther, not even a single T34 is lost for a destroyed Panther.
I know the best way is to out number german tanks but i think the T34 does too much damage on the frontal armor. we have to consider even though this is only a game but anyway in real the T34 (i mean the short gun) could not penetrate Tigers/Panthers frontal armor only side and rear. i know this is game/mod is not based on realism but 3 T34s for 1 Tiger....that's too much overrated. I mean the Tiger is too expensive to be lost for only 3 cheap tanks...
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You're looking at this tank battle in a vacuum. If three T34's are allowed to circle the tiger at will then yes they would probably own it as you said. But in any reasonable game contest there will also be support units nearby. The true power of the tiger is it's ability to strike in and deliver short devastating blows at little risk to itself before being backed off for repairs etc. If you rush your tiger in on a suicide mission and it gets encircled then you will simply suffer the consequences.
Also worth mentioning it's main gun's devastating effect on infantry which sets it well apart from normal tanks.
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Tiger should have better preformance against T-34, right now it`s a waste of resources to call it in, better make 3 PaK`s and get instant kill. If someone would ask me (as they don`t) range on tigers and KT`s should be at least 60, not spit range like now...
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@Fuhrious no i didn't attack with one Tiger the enemy attacked me with 3 T34s somewhere on the map where my Tiger was alone. and unfortunately i had no other units near the Tiger i could send to the battle. so it was a 3 vs 1 fight. anyway i think the Tiger should be able to deal alone with 3 T34s... I mean, we are talking about the TIGER you know anything about this tank? it was not a cheap and medium tank like the panther...it was more heavy and good armored... there were battle reports where 1 Tiger killed over 30 T34s in one battle!...russian crews feared this weapon like hell!
@Capt. Malashenko good you agree with me at this point. but why 3 PAKs if the Tiger could do the same job? i don't understand. its not the range im talking about its only the comparison of T34s gun vs Tiger's armor which seems a little bit unbalanced.
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/76s or /85s? 3 85s should handily beat a tiger.
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Actually some Tiger company`s had 10:1 ratio of killed/lost tanks (or more), but for the sake of balance Tiger was made a joke in CoH.
Why?
It cost`s 900MP and many many command points to even reach the privilege to call it in,
If you want to have a Tiger on the battlefield you have to give a lot of resources and pop, 2 things witch could give you far more capable and resilient fighting force,
Not only it has the range of 40 (while the 88` has 100- even they used exacly the same gun in RL) but it`s damage is 137.5 (88 = 225)
If Tiger would at least have 190dmg (even with the range of 40) it could handle him self well, even against the hordes of PaK`s.
@Capt. Malashenko good you agree with me at this point. but why 3 PAKs if the Tiger could do the same job? i don't understand. its not the range im talking about its only the comparison of T34s gun vs Tiger's armor which seems a little bit unbalanced.
You ask why comrade crytek7? This is why:
T-34 hit points = 650
T-34 damage 76mm=87.5 / 85mm upgrade = 115 (as PaK)
T-34 range = 40
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Tiger hit points = 1064
Tiger damage = 137.5 ergo 4-5 shoot`s to kill T34 (if you`r lucky)
Tiger range = 40
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PaK38 hit points = 300 (not that it matters)
PaK38 50mm damage = 115, 115x3 = 345dmg > T-34 dead in seconds
PaK 38 50mm range = 60
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1 Tiger = 9 command points, 900MP, population 14
3 PaK`s = 0 Command points, 930MP, pop 9
damage by Tiger = 137.5
damage by 3 PaK`s 345 + 20 extra range on T-34
the comparison of T34s gun vs Tiger's armor is non-existent, couse upgraded T-34 is a mobile PaK.
As you see in every aspect it pays off to build PaK`s then Tiger`s and thats why I said Tiger became a joke in CoH? Psychological weapon? - hardly ...
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If the T34s have any infantry support the paks are all dead. not the same with just a tiger.
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Who said PaK`s were out of support? And honestly, I haven`t seen much people combine inf. with tanks, T34 is almost never supported with inf (unless you count tank riders-but that`s a doctrine and expensive one too).
It all about the gameplay, we all have our wimps....
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If handled properly then the Tiger can kill those T-34 rather easily... particularly if you are good micro... just back up against a building or other non crushable object.... then just piss off the commanders while you bring up support...
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3 of any tank vs 1 of any other tank = Victory for 3 of any tank.
OP 3 conscript squads just killed 1 Volks squad. rage.
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I have seen a Tiger take on 4 Shermans and win... granted an M10 came flying down while the Tiger was limping away and shot it in the ass....
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that had to be some hilariously bad micro, and a t34/85 is WAY better than an upgunned sherman
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3 of any tank vs 1 of any other tank = Victory for 3 of any tank.
Any one remember this one ? ;D
3 Hotchkiss vs IS 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woIed66mA6E#normal)
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T-34 hit points = 650
T-34 damage 76mm=87.5 / 85mm upgrade = 115 (as PaK)
T-34 range = 40
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Tiger hit points = 1064
Tiger damage = 137.5 ergo 4-5 shoot`s to kill T34 (if you`r lucky)
Tiger range = 40
_________________________
PaK38 hit points = 300 (not that it matters)
PaK38 50mm damage = 115, 115x3 = 345dmg > T-34 dead in seconds
PaK 38 50mm range = 60
_________________________
1 Tiger = 9 command points, 900MP, population 14
3 PaK`s = 0 Command points, 930MP, pop 9
damage by Tiger = 137.5
damage by 3 PaK`s 345 + 20 extra range on T-34
the comparison of T34s gun vs Tiger's armor is non-existent, couse upgraded T-34 is a mobile PaK.
As you see in every aspect it pays off to build PaK`s then Tiger`s and thats why I said Tiger became a joke in CoH? Psychological weapon? - hardly ...
Hey where did you get this data from?
Because like that the T-34 seems pritty much op to me ???
The IS-2 has surely compareably data like a tiger i guess.
Really show us where you got that mod-secific data from^^
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The data is from Corsix Mod studio of the EF, T34 is not op at all since it`s 76mm gun can`t hit anything, only with 300MUN "/85" upgrade you get a chance to build a usable tank. By then Shrecks reek havoc on the field and T-34 quickly go to flames if not supported by some other unit.
IS-2 data is as follows:
IS-2 hit points = 1500
IS-2 damage = 150
IS-2 range = 40
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Tiger hit points = 1064
Tiger damage = 137.5
Tiger range = 40
Everyone will say OP, but IS-2 does NOT deflect shoots , so every PaK/75mm shoot is a full dmg (even Hotchkiss beats the crap out of him)
Compared to a Tiger - it can kill him and that should be fixed by IMPROVING THE TIGER, Tiger 88mm dmg 137.5? I`m mean c`moon, PaK`s 50mm is 115 for crying out loud. ???
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The data is from Corsix Mod studio of the EF, T34 is not op at all since it`s 76mm gun can`t hit anything, only with 300MUN "/85" upgrade you get a chance to build a usable tank. By then Shrecks reek havoc on the field and T-34 quickly go to flames if not supported by some other unit.
IS-2 data is as follows:
IS-2 hit points = 1500
IS-2 damage = 150
IS-2 range = 40
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Tiger hit points = 1064
Tiger damage = 137.5
Tiger range = 40
Everyone will say OP, but IS-2 does NOT deflect shoots , so every PaK/75mm shoot is a full dmg (even Hotchkiss beats the crap out of him)
Compared to a Tiger - it can kill him and that should be fixed by IMPROVING THE TIGER, Tiger 88mm dmg 137.5? I`m mean c`moon, PaK`s 50mm is 115 for crying out loud. ???
Could you give me a link? would really be helpfully.
But they said they wont change the existing factions. and thats ok so... :
Everyone will say OP
It is.
Really 1500? hell no.
Ok almost no bouncing of stuff, well, this doesnt work with coh. just take them and drive into the base of the enemy with mecanics, they will just shoot every bulding down. I did that already and it did work really well xD..
The problem is that nothing really cares these tanks because of that, everything cares it a bit, but that doesnt work with CoH.
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No nead to change the existing factions just the modifiers for Soviet tanks. And for the last time IS-2 costs 150 FUUUEL, you can get 2 panzer 4`s or 3 Marders before seeing a IS-2, it`s not that easy to get them out.
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Seriously. Enough fuel for a panther and an ostwind to protect it from inf. Thats quite a bit.
And the T34 is not op. The 76 comes out fast but thats balanced with the poor gun accuracy. The 85 costs THREE HUNDRED muni and still has relatively poor armor protection. Very vulnerable to shrecks/tank destroyers.
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You'd only call the T34/76 if you're rather clueless, sorry. It is a gimped version of the sherman 76 with poor accuracy, no MG upgrade,same armour/hitpoints(almost),less sight and no vet. Stug/Pz4/Hetzer all beat it if you play them well...and that's without vet....
Shrecks chew it up as easily as a sherman
Only OP thing which is due to receive a fix is its cost in MP which will go up.
T34/85 is slightly OP and due to receive a small nerf as well in hit points and cost
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Only OP thing which is due to receive a fix is its cost in MP which will go up.
T34/85 is slightly OP and due to receive a small nerf as well in hit points and cost
You`r keeding me right???? is there a unit you wont nerf?
T34/85 is effective AND it is costly too - ...just don`t nerf the weapon damage,ok? 1vs1 is already becoming a pain against Axis, the last thing I need is a nerf to the only tank that can stop Stug&Panther spam...
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You'd only call the T34/76 if you're rather clueless, sorry. It is a gimped version of the sherman 76 with poor accuracy, no MG upgrade,same armour/hitpoints(almost),less sight and no vet. Stug/Pz4/Hetzer all beat it if you play them well...and that's without vet....
Shrecks chew it up as easily as a sherman
Only OP thing which is due to receive a fix is its cost in MP which will go up.
T34/85 is slightly OP and due to receive a small nerf as well in hit points and cost
you are kinda right about that. just do it :)
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So let me get this straight. You are going to nerf the T34 and make the /76 completely useless and make the /85 not worth the munitions and trouble over IS/SU? Why even have it in the game?
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I like having the T34/85s and its generally my first upgrade in a team game... You can use a T34/85 and beat a Vet 3 stug 1v1 easy...(circle strafe FTW) and two of them can beat a Vet 2 Panther and 3 can take on a KT and win....(well so can 1 But I am saying three for the sake of support units)
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So let me get this straight. You are going to nerf the T34 and make the /76 completely useless and make the /85 not worth the munitions and trouble over IS/SU? Why even have it in the game?
IMO SU100 is horrible for its cost. Shit tier armor and an average gun. needs to do IS2 level damage.
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3 of any tank vs 1 of any other tank = Victory for 3 of any tank.
OP 3 conscript squads just killed 1 Volks squad. rage.
Is the marder classed as a tank? If so, 3 marders don't even touch king tiger. Not even when its surrounded
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So let me get this straight. You are going to nerf the T34 and make the /76 completely useless and make the /85 not worth the munitions and trouble over IS/SU? Why even have it in the game?
T34/76 stats aren't changed...cost is and it's still cheaper overall compared to PZ4/Sherman
T34/85 is better than Sherman/Pz4 so anything but useless.
IS2-Was very OP so being nerfed in some ways. I personally always prefer 2 T34/85s to 1 IS2
Its all about options...more cheap tanks or better more expensive ones
SUs are not very resilient but do pack a very good punch and work great with T34s
Both SUs have received adjustments too
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i think the to strong IS2 is one of the problems why T34 or SU arnt used that much
when i play with my teammate doube russians, i build T1-T2-Tankhall and save up for IS2 to keep spending all my full only for IS2 as soon as i have 150 again
my teammate builds T1-Tankhall-T90 to get rid of light vehicles and to help flanking hmgs and supporting against mp40 volks or pe blobs
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3 of any tank vs 1 of any other tank = Victory for 3 of any tank.
Any one remember this one ? ;D
3 Hotchkiss vs IS 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woIed66mA6E#normal)
Haha, awesome. ;D
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in my Opinion, i rather have a tiger/KT with a Panther or two Panzer Four than four or five T-34/85, and here is why. When you upgrade the T-34/85, its gets the 3 little stripes indicating that it is the best it will be. But when I can upgrade the Tiger/KT and the supporting Panther/2 Panzer 4 to be even more accurate, have a faster rate of fire, and do more damage, I will take the Quality and use it to shove your quantity into a dumpster. And what about Tank hunter squads. That why I have the Panzer 4 for, they get armor skirts and a Mg gunner. This is a good idea to use against T-34 users.
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in my Opinion, i rather have a tiger/KT with a Panther or two Panzer Four than four or five T-34/85, and here is why. When you upgrade the T-34/85, its gets the 3 little stripes indicating that it is the best it will be. But when I can upgrade the Tiger/KT and the supporting Panther/2 Panzer 4 to be even more accurate, have a faster rate of fire, and do more damage, I will take the Quality and use it to shove your quantity into a dumpster. And what about Tank hunter squads. That why I have the Panzer 4 for, they get armor skirts and a Mg gunner. This is a good idea to use against T-34 users.
my point exactly and yet T34 gets nerfed - wtf?
I almost always play Soviets, and more then once T34 fell to it`s knees even if numerically superior&upgraded. It only pays off if you take Brakethough/Mechanics and keep reviving all destroyed tanks - and even then...
3 of any tank vs 1 of any other tank = Victory for 3 of any tank.
Any one remember this one ? ;D
3 Hotchkiss vs IS 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woIed66mA6E#normal)
Haha, awesome. ;D
I know :)
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circle strafe ftw
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I dont think the T34 deserves a nerf of any kind. Its just going to pay off more if you do to build IS2s.
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Even now everyone just keep saving for IS-2` like there are no other Soviet tanks, and compared to combat effectiveness - I don`t blame them.
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Well the new patch changes everything. IS2 nerfed but is a little easier on fuel. Both SUs should actually be useful now. The T34 is now a waste of money after cost increase and health decrease.
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Please try to accept balancing guys. Even, if you didnt agree to that before it was done.
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Please try to accept balancing guys. Even, if you didnt agree to that before it was done.
Have you played 1.03?
It`s a joke, A JOKE!!!!
There`s not even a single Soviet unit that can be even considered reliable, much less useful. Canon meat - that`s what Soviets are now...
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Come on man, just accept that the soviets acutally were OP before these patches. Even if you didnt think that ;)
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Well now they`r UP, and that`s my final statement! :o :)
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its just yours.
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I have to say that the Soviets are now rather well balanced, with a few exceptions such as the PTRDs just don't freakin die when in a blob or three or more and Partisans should have a slight armor nerf but keep the attack. T34s need to be put back the way they where (my opinion)
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But when I can upgrade the Tiger/KT and the supporting Panther/2 Panzer 4 to be even more accurate, have a faster rate of fire, and do more damage, I will take the Quality and use it to shove your quantity into a dumpster. And what about Tank hunter squads. That why I have the Panzer 4 for, they get armor skirts and a Mg gunner. This is a good idea to use against T-34 users.
Tank Vet 1 = 30% less damage recieved fom enemy attacks.
Tank Vet 2 = Mg Gunner (that's all, right)
Tank Vet 3 = Armour skirts (reduce damage from Infantry AT weapons by 25% and penetration by 25%.
Doesn't help that much in tank vs tank fights ôÔ.
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i know alot (i mean ALOT) about soviets in ww2. if you are making a ww2 game, there has to be something historical, right?
if you nerf the t34, then you have to make them cheap with quicker build time, and less population; this is what they did. the IS-2's were the spearhead, wrecking everything and everyone until they would get rocketed of ambushed by paks or something like that. then, once the German's paks were located, they would unleash the tide of t34s. it didn't matter how many they lost. they would just keep coming. I agree that the t34/76 should not be very effective, but it should be cheap and should be able to have a larger amount. i do realize though that this t34 "spam" along with conscripts could make a problem, but that is what paks/panthers/panzer IVs/ tank busters are for.
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The Devs have repeatedly said that it is NOT about historical accuracy but game BALANCE... so stop harping on historical accuracy or the Germans would lose every time...
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hgghg4 : it cant be called a WW2 game if it is not at least somewhat accurate
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that is why there is a delicate balance
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Guys if you paid attention in the latest patch the /76 MP cost is now 300, fuel cost 70, pop cost 6. Significantly cheaper than an /85(380/80/8). The game is balanced now.
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Honestly I love T-34s and SU-85/100s combined... better then IS2s in my opinion
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imho, the discussion is slightly shifted towards N tank(s) vs N tank(s) duels. during routine games things are not so discreet. enraged tank buster blobs on my advance vector has become my constant concern since a pair of shreks will make me say goodbye to my powerful yet fragile T34's when there is no infantry/anti-personnel vehicle/katyusha support for their advance..
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I don't like IS2s really, so a T34 or SU-85 is so much more pleasing to see on the battlefield.
-Narizna
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Yeeah, funny thing. IS-2 is a rare sight now, but T-34/76 is also very rare. Too bad people don`t think it useful without upgrade, what the hell - I like them both -
T34 en masse >>> 8)
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Yeah two marders with triple vet offensive will destroy almost any Soviet armor column, its funny when 4 IS2s rush your marders while they are locked down and 1 dies and another is seriously damaged then destroyed before flanking commences then they start to flank and they both are dealt heavy damage before retreating and one gets blown up before it gets out of range.... yeah I seen it happen before :P
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a t-34/76 in my opinion it is more cost effective then many of the other tanks.
while it has its disadvantages, i really think it is one of the greatest tanks in this game.
and rightly so that Marders kill them, balance :P
i like 34/85s, but 34/76s have that "classic" feel to them that i cant get rid of :P.
-Narizna
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T-34 is no longer OP. But it still rocks. :)
Offtopic: Does anyone have a stats comparison for
Sherman+Sherman76mm vs Cromwell vs T-34/76+T-34/85 vs PanzerIV+VetPanzerIV? (Or where I can find them?)