Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Suggestions => Topic started by: Fhurion on February 04, 2010, 08:12:06 PM
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First off, don't need to say it again, but EF rocks. So thanks to the team, keep up the good work and great support/patches.
Now I know a gripe I and some other people have is not knowing the number of members in a Conscript squad (always shows 0/0, even with NKVD upgrade). I know this is an issue with them having ZERO pop cost. So the solution...
Axis fanboys already complain about Soviet early game zerging with Conscripts. I say give them a pop cost of ONE, but upgrade their rifles to the Moisin2 currently carried by Ingenery (and to balance I hear Ingenery will be getting Conscript Moisin with next patch).
Actually that's one of the things that makes Soviets a bit stronger than they should in the opening stages...which is why those Ingenery boyz are getting the conscript mosin next patch ;D
This solves multiple issues:
1. Conscripts will have squad numbers
2. Axis fanboys appeased for early-game "balance" sake
3. Conscripts become less useless, with better rifles
4. Ingenery will be used as a support/construction unit, rather than primary fighting unit (as many soviet players bypass Conscripts altogether)
To further balance Conscripts if the ONE pop cost scares people off from using them, you can either:
- Give all 8 members rifles from start
- Add no additional pop cost for NKVD (ie. leave at ONE pop cost after upgrade)
I welcome feedback and signatures.
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Because of their low quality, I've yet to see a game where their number has been an issue....
If we do perceive it as an issue at a later date, they won't receive a pop but they will receive a hard cap....as I said more evidence quality replays needed to make such a case
Pop cap is releated to the number you can assign to each infantry man and will directly linked to what is displayed on the icon. Hence '0'
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First off, don't need to say it again, but EF rocks. So thanks to the team, keep up the good work and great support/patches.
Now I know a gripe I and some other people have is not knowing the number of members in a Conscript squad (always shows 0/0, even with NKVD upgrade). I know this is an issue with them having ZERO pop cost. So the solution...
Axis fanboys already complain about Soviet early game zerging with Conscripts. I say give them a pop cost of ONE, but upgrade their rifles to the Moisin2 currently carried by Ingenery (and to balance I hear Ingenery will be getting Conscript Moisin with next patch).
Actually that's one of the things that makes Soviets a bit stronger than they should in the opening stages...which is why those Ingenery boyz are getting the conscript mosin next patch ;D
This solves multiple issues:
1. Conscripts will have squad numbers
2. Axis fanboys appeased for early-game "balance" sake
3. Conscripts become less useless, with better rifles
4. Ingenery will be used as a support/construction unit, rather than primary fighting unit (as many soviet players bypass Conscripts altogether)
To further balance Conscripts if the ONE pop cost scares people off from using them, you can either:
- Give all 8 members rifles from start
- Add no additional pop cost for NKVD (ie. leave at ONE pop cost after upgrade)
I welcome feedback and signatures.
Agree 100%.
Conscripts need to ditch the 'swarm' role because right now it just isn't working very well:
The population thing is annoying and I don't think having a squad cost no pop is in the spirit of the game. CoH is all about preserving your squad and treasuring it - using conscripts that cost no pop just doesn't feel right.
The whole running into enemy fire for those that don't have rifles is gimmicky and unless you guys can fix it I don't know why this is still in the mod.
Sometimes my squad ends up with 1 rifle and 3 unarmed guys.
Swarming w/ conscripts encourages blobbing and just isn't true to CoH gameplay. Smaller more manageable squads are more fun to use than large, half-equipped, gimmicky ones.
Squad sizes need to be reduced, everyone needs to get rifles from the start. With huge 8 man squads cover becomes a major issue, sometimes half my squad won't be in cover because there are too many people in it. This isn't a problem for the other factions because they were designed in the spirit of the game i.e. small, tactical squads not bumrushing.
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Sounds good.
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whats the point of preserving it if they do not get XP? and cost much less just to get a new one. Also it would be hard to fill even an early game pop cap with one pop units and late game if you get zerg rushed you are either doing something wrong or you are getting your ass handed to you already.
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I hear you Zerst.
And to be honest the primary reasons I had for posting this were A) the annoying issue of not knowing how many men are left in a Conscript squad [especially given how easily they're killed] and B) making Conscripts a more worthwhile squad to use for a Soviet player, hence the better rifle/full rifles at spawn.
I totally understand and appreciate the idea behind giving them 0 pop, half rifles, high numbers, and terrible skill. But I think in the interest of gameplay, addressing the pop cap/+ rifles issue would make them more worthwhile.
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Make them take up one pop if they are all equiped with rifles, and maby had more than 10 hp each
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OP I disagree with your opinions on conscript pop levels. I like the idea of there being a zerg rush in CoH plus non upgraded conscripts would be more useless if they cost pop. plus not taking up any pop makes conscripts very viable mid and late game as they can be used en mass.
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I totally understand and appreciate the idea behind giving them 0 pop, half rifles, high numbers, and terrible skill. But I think in the interest of gameplay, addressing the pop cap/+ rifles issue would make them more worthwhile.
So you just want them to be Strelky?
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the conscripts would work as is if they didnt have that thing where they run at the enemies for no reason, then they wouldent get caught in MG fire and supress the entire squad, it would make using cover more effective as well.
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the conscripts would work as is if they didnt have that thing where they run at the enemies for no reason, then they wouldent get caught in MG fire and supress the entire squad, it would make using cover more effective as well.
That can be done, I did it for with volks before EF was released in order to see what the conscript concept was like lol. Although I'm not sure whether the running thing is an intentional feature or not.
I'd also like to see the conscripts without guns pickup a rifle once a conscript with one dies. Again I know this can be done but I'm not sure whether or not this is intentional.
I think those would raise more balance issues though lol.
I'd have to disagree with the OP though, these are things which make conscripts unique.
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I totally understand and appreciate the idea behind giving them 0 pop, half rifles, high numbers, and terrible skill. But I think in the interest of gameplay, addressing the pop cap/+ rifles issue would make them more worthwhile.
So you just want them to be Strelky?
And there lies your answer. Conscripts are fine as is. The zero pop idea was to make the red tide effect that the russians used during some stages of WWII. Plus its a good way to buff an assault force when you hit pop limit. Considering Volks and motorcycle shred them, I don't see them as a early game problem. Leave it as it is.
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i like the conscript as they are. I you are playing against the Russian and you are getting hammered by Conscripts, its because you don't have a MG team/bunker. Conscripts are super easy to kill, just get them suppress and drop a couple mortars on them. Or send in a Grenadier squad upgraded to carry two Mg-42 LMGs and vet them to level three.
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this is funny because I saw 3 unvetted Pio Squads shred a single (yeah I know if they where blobbed the pios would die) conscript squad they conscripts are weak as all hell and are good for stalling an enemy inf rush till you can get better units on the field
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The conscripts´ role is to make Soviets have an epic negative K/D.
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I like having 0 pop conscripts because then when my friend and I play, we have defenses set up and have 60+ squads of conscripts supported by max pop other squads charge...
On the balance note though, I havn't played any proper games but, from an unexperienced view of the battlefields and from what I hear of strategies from people posting: People are more likly to use ingineries, and don't make conscripts anyway. Conscripts are really weak as it is and to be effective they require a true squad or about 2 more conscripts for support. Even so they usually get suppressed or killed within seconds by a squad or 2.
I have found that grouping conscripts and rushing them all in as one squad doesn't work effectively because of supression, and when using the command squad to charge, it will act as a temporary solution vs the mg and supporting squad. Usually before the charge ability recharges, I come across another MG, and due to the lack of charge ability, everyone gets supressed. Unless I have a sniper by that time, which requires the 50 fuel and a long creation time, I have no effective way of taking down the MG apart from using a 2nd group to flank. If the MG is supported it would take 3 squads of conscripts, flanking, to take out.
With the current cost of conscripts being 200, and a lack of effective early game units which can deal with mgs, it's very costly to go up against werh. I doubt that with an even match, a player will get so many conscripts that they will overpower his opponent due to requiring twice the manpower for an effective equal base infantry force. Even with the supporting units, I find that conscripts cost more than they are worth and would be traded out for better units ASAP.
The only time I could see conscripts being a problem is very late game if there is a lot of manpower, which then they usually would have been upgraded. If they don't have the upgrade, they would be easily taken out by most units. Volks with MP40s can take out 3 conscript squads in my experience, an armoured car rips them apart fast and because of the lack of retreat, there is no way to help but to bring in some form of anti tank. PTRS squads are outranged by the werh armoured car, which can also deal damage to them easily. It usually takes a well placed AT gun which the opponent misses or a tank to deal with the armoured car effectively unless i'm missing some other options.
I wonder if it would be possible to remove the pop cap altogether... Gotta love playing a fun game with a friend where one player makes a defense whilst the other makes an army to attack!
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I say NO. Conscripts were prisoners (political, murderers, rapists, etc which existed quite a bit in slavic countries during those times) when germans were conquering lands. Most likely why would they feed uncivilized heathen when they can be simple fodder or a logistical drain on the enemy.
Conscripts shouldn't be able to re-inforce by they way. Their lives were just thrown into the meat grinder.
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I say NO. Conscripts were prisoners (political, murderers, rapists, etc which existed quite a bit in slavic countries during those times) when germans were conquering lands. Most likely why would they feed uncivilized heathen when they can be simple fodder or a logistical drain on the enemy.
Conscripts shouldn't be able to re-inforce by they way. Their lives were just thrown into the meat grinder.
Uh, no, conscription covered ALL able bodied men, not just Prisoners. Prisoner conscripts were kept in special Penal battalions and the total convicts who served in them by the end of the war numbered about 450,000, compared to the 35,000,000 people who had served in the Red Army by the end of the war.
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Was going to reply but Burro nailed it.
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Hi guys, I'm new here and has everyone has said before:
"Great work on this mod!"
Anyhow, back to the topic at hand.
Personally, I think the zero pop cap is fine. The conscripts, especially the upgraded ones very early on are nothing more than canon fodder and have a difficult time taking out other squads.
I don't know what this "true spirit of CoH" talk is all about by not having these units gain levels by keeping them alive. It's a new army, offering a new strategy. I know most (if not all) infantry units can be upgraded at the armory, but personally I don't think conscripts should be able to level up/upgrade at all if their purpose is to just flood the battlefield and your focus should be later in game to keep your more expensive troops alive.
Just my two cents.
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Ingenery will be used as a support/construction unit, rather than primary fighting unit (as many soviet players bypass Conscripts altogether)
You're right, I dont use conscripts at all :) I see them as a waste and Constantly use ingenry as the main fighters.
And as support for not changing Conscripts I'd like to point out they are CONSCRIPTS the Russian Army lost the most infantry in every skirmish during WWII ,they are meant to Zerg!
@Lucid ,No pop cap would make this game immortal :)