Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Suggestions => Ostheer Suggestions => Topic started by: wordsmith on March 23, 2010, 08:40:59 PM

Title: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 23, 2010, 08:40:59 PM
2nd reworked EF Ostheer Concept
by Wordsmith

ver.2.1


Note to 2nd edition:  I reworked my concept because it was not thought well through. Vet system remained same but I reworked units, tiers and resource mechanics (fuel loss). Also I add new buildings - Emergency supply yard and Specialist train facility. I also got some inspirations - especially from Venoxxis for graphics (nice) ;) and made some graphics too. I think it could give better picture of what I'm trying to say.

Overview

The Wehrmacht on Eastern front faced different challenges than on other battlefields.  First it was huge distances, thus prolonging supply lines and logistics. Then huge numbers of Red Army retreating in the beginning of conflict and later attacking and pushing Wehrmacht from Russia back. I think Red Army design reflects this quite well so I based my design of Ostheer on these facts too.

As a hardcore PE player I tried do design the Ostheer as balanced as possible (because I suffer from PE imbalance in every single game) and to include units and abilities which PE and Wehrmacht factions doesn't have. In general it is quite hard to come with something unique because 2 other Axis factions covers a wide variety of weapons. I tried to make my best.

Buildings and tech

Whole EF war period can be divided into 3 basic eras:
-1941/1942 initial German attack, massive advance, infantry and light/medium tanks used
- 1942/1943 advance stopped, famous battles over big cities, Red Army recovers, new tanks hit the battle
- 1944/1945 German defense and retreat, defensive weapons used, lack of resources, desperate measures

These periods are represented with 3 different buildings, which can be build by Pioneer halftrack  (from HQ) or later by Stormpioneers/ sWS Heavy Military Tractor.  Prerequisite to next building is previous building as shown on the picture:

(http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1968/buildingtree.png)

Except Forward strongpoint all building can be built only in HQ sector.




Buildings - Units


(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8591/unitstreeb.png)



HQ
1.  Pioneer halftrack: Sdkfz 7 halftrack, unarmed
- basic building unit, builds buildings
- can repair units
- can't capture points
- can lay mines (35 ammo)

Tier 1: Blitzkrieg barracks
1. Ostheer infantry: 5 men, rifles
- basic infantry used to capture and first fights
- it could be a non-German  infantry unit representing that other nations were included in Ostheer
- after Tier2 it can be upgraded with one ZB.vz26 Light Machine gun (50 Ammo)
- can build barbwire

2.  MG34 Machine gun: 3 Men
- MG34 has slower rate of fire than MG42 and thus creates less suppress, it is similar to .30 MG

3. Pak 35/36, 37mm AT gun: 3 men
- can penetrate only small vehicles armor (M8, Stuart, T70/90)

4. 7.5 cm Movable infantry artillery: 5 men push gun (like Paks)
- after deploy can indirect shoot artillery barrage, short range since it is light arty (larger range than mortar, but smaller range than classic arty howitzers)


Tier 2: Tank deploy garage
1. PzIIL "Luchs"
- light recon tank

2. PzIII J
- medium tank, backbone of the Ostheer armored divisions
- upgrade to L version with better armor (75 Ammo)

3.  Sdkfz 251 Halftrack
- reinforce infantry
- can transport 3 squads, 12 men
- possible upgrade to 251/2 version with 81mm mortar (50 Ammo)... then loose transport ability, mortar version has ability to Bombard (only with STF building)
- possible upgrade to 251/17 version with 20mm Flak38 Anti Aircraft gun (50 Ammo)... then loose transport ability, can shoot planes, creates good suppression (only with ESY building)
- after Tier3 possible upgrade to 251/22 version with 75mm Pak40 Anti Tank gun (75 Ammo)... then loose transport ability

4. StugIIIG self propelled assault gun

5. Tiger Heavy tank
- available after Tier3 is build
- until researched Reliability upgrade (100 MP, 30 Fuel)  every Tiger produced has possibility 33% engine breakdown similar to critical hit to engine, which is checked in every 1min. interval, result engine damage can be repaired normally (this is reflecting poor reliability of first vehicles)
- Tiger has "Progressive popcap" attribute, it means that first Tiger build has 14 popcap, next would have 16 and next 18 and so on representing the fact that Tiger was state of the art technology and it required high prestige to obtain more of them. If some Tiger is destroyed this Popcap will decrease too so the popcap limit could be then like this:
1 Tiger  14
2 Tigers 30
3 Tigers 48
4 Tigers 68
5 Tigers 90


Reliability upgrade (100 MP, 30 Fuel)
- Tiger tanks will no more suffer from random breakdowns 

Tier 3: Defensive station
- unlocks the ability to construct the Forward strongpoint

1. Reserves infantry (i.e.Hitlerjugend): 3 men squad, (cheap infantry to defend homeland!)
- can be used for capture
- can help building Forward strongpoint to build it quicker, but can't build itself and can't repair
- when in green cover they cloak automatically
- fire Panzerfaust ability (35 ammo)
Note:  can be used for re-manning the AT guns/MGs/Mortars after it will be repatched by Relic...

2. Assault squad (i.e. SS-Stosstruppen): 4 men squad
- elite infantry with better armor and health, shock troops, not possible to retreat, not possible to suppress
- ability to Throw incendiary grenade (25 Ammo)
- ability to Fight hand-to-hand (free, cooldown)... assaulting enemy infantry when they get close, they can attack relentlessly engaging close infantry hand-to-hand for short period (5 seconds, reload 3 sec. so each man can kill max.2 close enemies) killing instantly with 1 shot

3. Raketenwerfer 56: 6 men
- 30 cm rocket launcher, similar to 15cm Nebelwerfer (larger range and damage, lower accuracy, slower rate of fire, no fire damage just impact rockets)

4. Flakpanzer Kugelblitz, mobile AAA
- anti-air gun, good vs infantry and light armored targets


Specialist train facility (STF)

- non-tier building used to train specialist soldiers and unlock some abilities
- if Specialist train facility is built then Emergency supply yard can't be build

STF Abilities:
1.  MG34 Ambush (150MP, 20 Fuel), MG34  can cloak and ambush incoming infantry

2.  Leichtgeschütz 40 (160MP, 25 Fuel)
- allows upgrade for Assault squad  with 7.5 cm Leichtgeschütz 40 (recoilless gun) (125 Ammo)


STF Units:
1. Stormpioneers (Sturmpioniere): 4 men squad soldier type
- builds buildings, barbwire, sandbags and tank traps
- can lay mines (25 Ammo)
- have advanced repair ability
- can capture points
- upgrade Flamers (50 Ammo), 2 men receive flamers
- received Satchel charge ability (50 Ammo) and Throw Molotov Cocktail (20 Ammo) after Tier3

2. Elite sniper: 1 Man
- as standard sniper but with +10 sight range but  K98 rifle has slower rate of fire than G43 of Wehr sniper
- has 1.2 more health than Wehr sniper

3. Gebirgsjäger: 4 men squad
- available after after Tier2
- has increased sight range than standard infantry (=40)
- long range combat experts, uses G43 scoped rifles, good accuracy at long range
- ability to Throw grenade (25 Ammo)
- after Tier3 able to upgrade with Panzerschreck (75 Ammo)


Emergency supply yard (ESY)

- non-tier building used to manage supplies stock and unlock some abilities
- if Emergency supply yard is built then Specialist train facility can't be build

ESY Abilities:
1. Stielgranate 41 upgrade for Pak 35/36 (120 MP, 15 Fuel)
- ability to shoot Stielgranate 41, shaped charge which can penetrate any armor (35 Ammo, 15 seconds cooldown)

2. Advanced recruiting upgrade (150  MP, 25 Fuel)
- increases max.men in Ostheer infantry from 5 to 6

3. Conditioning upgrade (100 MP, 10 Fuel)
- ability to run for Assault squad (similar to PE run) (free, cooldown)

4. Organize supply of Fuel (350 MP)
- gives 50 Fuel
- long cooldown 7min.

5. Organize supply of Ammo (250 MP)
- gives 50 Ammo
- cooldown 5min.

ESY Units:
1.  sWS Heavy Military Tractor
- available after Tier3
- lightly armored, unarmed
- builds buildings
- can lay mines (25 Ammo)
- have advanced repair ability
- can't capture points
- but can secure points for increased income (as Embark/Disembark ability)
- Panzerwerfer upgrade (150 Ammo), 10-barreled 15 cm Nebelwerfer  42 rocket launcher after Tier3

Prestige center - Veterancy

Prestige center serves as gathering point for experience. Units doesn't become veterans by experience, instead all experienced is counted inside this building and can be checked every time clicking on it. For those experience points medals can be granted to particular units, making it then more valuable in combat:

(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/973/medals.png)

25exp Iron Cross 1st class
50exp German Cross
90exp Knight's Cross

Each medal is then displayed with unit's banner similar to PE def/off veterancy. Each unit can receive only 1 individual medal, it doesn't have to have lower medals to receive bigger one. So it is possible to distribute a Knight's cross to a unit without any medal. Effect of medals are cumulative, higher medal has bigger impact. Medals could also grant some special ability, but I haven't thought those yet.

Example of Tiger with all medals:

(http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6466/medalstiger.jpg)

Medal benefits to units can be in general:

Infantry
Iron Cross: Max.health 1.1, Accuracy 1.1, Reload 0.9
German Cross: Max.health 1.2, Received damage 0.85, Received accuracy 0.85
Knight's Cross: Max.health 1.3, Received suppression 0.75, Damage 1.5

Guns
Iron Cross: Max.health 1.1, Accuracy 1.1, Reload 0.9
German Cross: Max.health 1.1, Received damage 0.9, Received accuracy 0.9
Knight's Cross: Max.health 1.3, Received accuracy 0.9, Damage 1.5

Vehicles
Iron Cross: Max.speed 1.1, Accuracy 1.1
German Cross: Max.health 1.2, Penetration 1.3
Knight's Cross:  Received damage 0.8, Damage 1.5

Forward strongpoint
Can be build in the own sector, it is a small placement surrounded with sandbags with hole inside. Infantry can garrison it (2 Slots, 6 Men Capacity). Forward strong point can be upgraded:
- Medical station (125 Ammo), builds a medical station which can heal all friendly infantry nearby
- Observation tower (50 Ammo), decreases capacity to 1 Slot, 3 Men, Increases sight range by +25
- Bobby trapped place (50 Ammo), looks like standard strongpoint and can still be garrisoned, but if enemy infantry tries to garrison it it will blow up and kills infantry which tried it

Units/buildings building costs summary
Tier 1: Blitzkrieg barracks (200 MP, 25 Fuel)
Tier 2: Tank deploy garage (250 MP, 50 Fuel)
Tier 3: Defensive station (250 MP, 60 Fuel)
Specialist train facility (200 MP, 30 Fuel)
Emergency supply yard (200 MP, 30 Fuel)
Prestige center (100 MP, 10 Fuel)
Forward strongpoint (120 MP)

HQ:  Pioneer halftrack (160 MP), Sdkfz 7 halftrack, unarmed
T1: Ostheer infantry (220 MP), 5 men, rifles
T1:  MG34 Machine gun (250 MP), 3 Men, Luger
T1: Pak 35/36, 37mm AT gun (280 MP), 3 men, Luger
T1: 7.5 cm le.IG 18 Movable infantry artillery (320 MP, 20 Fuel), 5 men, Luger
T2: PzIIL "Luchs" (230 MP, 35 Fuel), 2 cm KwK 38 L/55, MG34
T2: PzIII J, Medium tank (350 MP, 60 Fuel),  50mm KwK 38 L/42 gun, MG34 Machine gun
T2:  Sdkfz 251 Halftrack (200 MP, 25 Fuel)
T2: StugIIIG assault gun (450 MP, 75 Fuel), 7.5 cm StuK 40 L/48
T2: PzVIE Tiger Heavy tank (900 MP, 200 Fuel), 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56 gun, 2x MG34 Machine gun
T3: Reserves infantry (110 MP), 3 men squad, K98 rifles
T3: Assault squad (450 MP), 4 men squad, 3xMP44, 1xMG42, MG34
T3: Raketenwerfer 56 (350 MP), 6 men, Luger
T3: Flakpanzer Kugelblitz  (420MP, 45 Fuel), 2x 30mm Flak 103/38
STF: Stormpioneers (Sturmpioniere) (280 MP), 4 men squad soldier type, MP40
STF: Elite sniper (420 MP), 1 Man, K98 scoped
STF: Gebirgsjäger (330 MP), 4 men squad, G43 rifles
ESY:  sWS Schwere Wehrmachtschlepper,  Heavy Military Tractor (220 MP, 20 Fuel)




Fuel loss principle
Fuel income will decrease with every single tank lost representing the later fuel shortage and also that German industry was not able to match production capacity of Russians (or Allies as well) later in the war. Every tank then become a treasure and should be treated well. This would be a big challenge to balance it, but it can bring interesting element into a game play. 

Every lost tank results in decrease of fuel income according to the unit representing long supply lines and heavy logistics dependence along with the late war fuel shortage for Germany:
PzII: -1 fuel/min.
PzIII: -1 fuel/min.
StugIII: -1 fuel/min.
Tiger: -3 fuel/min.
Kugelblitz: -1 fuel/min.
Wespe: -1 fuel/min.
Nashorn: -2 fuel/min.
Sturmpanzer IV: -2 fuel/min.
Elefant: -3 fuel/min.


This loose can not be regained, but is limited to -20 Fuel/min. and could not be less than zero. Minimum Fuel flow should be always guaranteed to +5 Fuel/min. after applying the minus score. This means if player has +30 Fuel/min. and has penalty -20 Fuel/min., he receives still +10 Fuel/min.. If he has only +20Fuel/min. income and same penalty -20 Fuel/min., he will still receive +5 Fuel/min. regardless.

Note: On regular 1v1 maps, the usual fuel income from half of the map should be about +20 Fuel/Min. Normally player had to loose about 10-20x tanks to reach bottom fuel income which is quite a lot. In common game if players are equally good and game lasts long there are about 5-10 tanks loses average. After that one of the sides reaches advantage and eventually wins.
 Ostheer player could risk and push opponent for more territory but could loose some tank in this which could lead to later fuel shortage but this was exactly as it happened during WW2. 


Doctrines


Maneuver warfare strategy

Maneuver warfare doctrine focuses on offence.  Player is given the abilities to strike far in front of advacing troops. Armored group can then quickly advance and destroy everything in its path.


(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8774/doctrine1.png)






Left side: Combined arms
Advanced recon (1CP) - let the infantry do the recon so our panzers can be aware of enemy AT weapons
- unit passive ability, all infantry units receive increased sight range +10, including garrison units in buildings

Ju87D strike (2CP) - also Luftwaffe wants to do their part in this glorious campaign, let them seed the fear into hearts of enemy
- player active ability 250 Ammo cost, Stuka bomber will dive drop 1xSC500 and 2xSC250 bombs on designed area, siren wail will also increase suppression in larger area around impact

Wespe (3CP) - help our mechanized forces to destroy distant enemies with mobile artillery
- call-in unit 550MP cost, mobile 10.5 cm leFH 18M L/28 arty
- ability shoot artillery barrage
- ability shoot smoke barrage
- max.3

Right side: Armored spearhead tactics
Fast advance (2CP) - crush enemy with our armors
- player active ability 150 Ammo cost, increases the speed (+3) and decrease the received accuracy (0.75) of all vehicles for period of 30sec.

Armor fighting spirit (3CP) - all tanks now serves as source of inspiration and example to our troops
- unit passive ability, all tanks now act as veteran sergeant of PE, giving all surrounding infantry  units 0.75 received suppression and 1.25 received experience

Nashorn (3CP) - help out AT units with this outstanding mobile gun
- call-in unit 550MP cost, mobile 88 mm PaK 43/1 AT gun
- lightly armored



Indirect approach strategy

Indirect approach focuses purely on resource war. The economics behind the fighting troops is as same important as troops itself. Without resources even most deadly weapons could not be manufactured thus would be not deployed. Player could arrange more supplies while disrupting enemy supply lines to a point of total resource shortage.

(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/2279/doctrine2.png)




Left side: Economy war
Economy boost (1CP) - everybody in our homeland increased its productivity to support war effort
- player active ability 300 MP cost, fuel income increase +50/min., ammo income increase +50/min., duration 1min.

Priority supply (3CP) - your prestige allows you to arrange better supplies
- passive ability, increases MP income by +25/min.

Bombard supply routes (4CP) - let's hurt the economy of the enemy, bombard their supply lines
- player active ability 300 Ammo cost, for duration of 45 sec. all enemy income of MP, fuel, ammo is halved (bombard sounds can be heard on background indicating the bombardment and demoralizing the opponent)

Right side: Sabotage tactics
Industry sabotage (2CP) - sabotage the production of enemy
- player active ability 100 Ammo cost, for duration of 1min. all enemy production time is doubled (or production speed is halved)

Saboteur squad (2CP) - squad of saboteurs which is sent to decimate enemy
- call-in unit 270MP cost, 3 men, MP40
- invisible on small map and on tactical map
- once deployed in enemy territory, they disrupt income from that sector effectively halving the resource income
- have ability to plant mines (25 Ammo) and to plant Demolition charges (50 Ammo)
- only 1 Saboteur squad in game at time allowed

Disinformation (3CP) - send false information to enemy to confuse him
- player active ability 150 Ammo cost, for duration of 45 sec. false information will be displayed on enemy small map and on tactical map, indicating random infantry squads and tanks moving towards his base




Holding ground strategy

No step back! Only with good defense Ostheer is able to stop those red hordes. This doctrine allows the player to focus on defense and call-in most dangerous heavy mobile guns like "Brummbär" or invincible Elefant.

(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5586/doctrine3b.png)




Left side: Artillery support
Carefull positioning (2CP) - find a good spot for our artillery and fortify it
- unit active ability (no cost)
- 7.5 cm le.IG 18 artillery have now ability to dig-in, which will reduce a barrage cooldown by 30% but after it is deployed, it can not redeploy and move further (become static emplacement)

17cm K18 Bombard (2CP) - devastate enemy with our powerful artillery
- player active ability (175 Ammo), fires  17 cm Kanone 18 arty off-map heavy barrage

Sturmpanzer IV (3CP) - call-in a devastating assault gun "Brummbär"
- call-in unit 750MP cost, 15 cm StuH 43 L/12, MG34
- only 2 units available at time


Right side: Defensive operations
Rugged defense (1CP) - let the enemy pay for daring to attack us
- player active ability (75 Ammo), all infantry units in yellow or green cover or garrisoned in buildings receive damage 0.5, receive accuracy 0.75, receive suppression 0.5 for 30sec.
- only affects units in own territory

Ambush (3CP) - lure the enemy to our traps and destroy them
- unit active ability (no cost), all AT guns can now cloak while waiting and ambush incoming enemy with higher first shot damage
- this ability affects Pak 35/36, Sdkfz.251/22 (75mm AT gun upgrade), StugIII, Elefant

Elefant (5CP) - call the hardest beast on Eastern front, mighty Elefant
- call-in unit 900MP cost, 8.8 cm PaK 43/2 L/71 heavy armored mobile AT gun
- only one Elefant allowed in game
- possible upgrade with MG34 for protection vs infantry (75 ammo)

Summary

To summarize my concept, I wrote this short list of main ideas:
- veterancy is gained globally in Prestige center, then distributed to individual units by decorating it with medals
- fuel income decreases with lost vehicles, representing later fuel shortage, long supply lines and German damaged industry - on the other hand Ostheer will have one quick light and medium tank to fight earlier than other factions - PzII or PzIII
- there are 3 tiers, which are linear one after another, but choosing from 2 special buildings (Emergency supply yard and Specialist train facility) could diverse a play style a little

Unit tech availability summary:

To compare with other factions I made also following analysis, in terms of fuel costs.

Fast 1st armored car (not destroyable by infantry without AT weapons):
US:  15+50+45+30 = 140 (M8)
Brit: 15+30+35+45 = 125 (Stuart)
Russian: 115+30 = 145 (T70)
Wehrmacht: 35+50+35+35 = 155 (Puma)
PE: 20+30+40+40 = 130 (MarderIII)... actually PE Marder could be destroyed by Flamers, maybe by BARs too (if shooting from back)
Ostheer: 25+50+35 = 100 (PzII)

*Note: fast PzII is available soon because Wehrmacht was stronger in tank doctrine from begin of the war, that time any possible opponent could have AT gun for sure. I'm aware that it may lead to spam PzII-PzIIIs and base raids, but this was the Wehrmacht initial tactics developed by Guderian. Opponent can then focus more on defense from begin and making mines and AT guns. Spamming PzII then would possible make player exhaust fuel supplies due to fuel loss.

1st tank:
US: 15+50+90+55 = 210 (M10)
Brit: 15+30+35+65+70 = 215 (Cromwell)
Russian: 115+75 = 190 (T34)
Wehrmacht: 35+50+35+50 = 170 (StugIV)
Wehrmacht: 35+50+50+50+80 = 260 (PzIV)
PE: 20+30+60+60 = 170 (PzIV)
Ostheer: 25+50+60 = 135 (PzIII)
Ostheer: 25+50+75 = 150 (StugIII)
Ostheer: 25+50+60+200 = 335 (Tiger)
Ostheer: 25+50+60+45 = 180 (Kugelblitz)

Ostheer vs Red Army charts:

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3233/techgraph1.th.png) (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/techgraph1.png/)

(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4425/techgraph2.th.png) (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/techgraph2.png/)

Looking forward to your comments!
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Paciat on March 23, 2010, 11:39:46 PM
Thats the best Ostheer concept Ive seen so far.

Some things are great but some I do not like. Ill strat from the start :D and point out these things:

1. Prestige centre sounds nice but does it mean that you can vet upgrade units that saw no combat with prestige gained by other units? Also Prestige bonuses are very large!

2. +1 to the pionieer halftrack.

3. How about an LMG upgrade for Ostheer infantry? Maybe a reskinned bren (only one) 40-50ammo.

4. Youre HMGs (and probably PAKs) have only 3 men. Becouse ostheer cant recrew how about a 4th man upgrade. I could also afect 7,5cm arti.

5. I dont like that Ostheer has no light vehicles (bikes, kubelwagons, ACs) and no AA defence (quad halftrack instead of PzII) no halftracks to reinforce.

6. MarderIII? Isnt that what PE has? I would like to see a StugIII. :( I know that ist like a StugIV but now everyone uses Gwagons anyway.

7. I like that you didnt use PzIV and Panther tanks.
+1 for being original.

8. Hitleryouth infantry. Wouldnt it be better to make a 6 man squad upgrade to Ostheer infantry? It could also afect weapon crews(4th man).

9. Elite Stormtroopers and Snipers. Sounds lile wehrmacht to me. How about Gebirgsjäger (long range fighters with marksman ability and Fallschirmjäger camo). I also dont like hand-to-hand ability when its used on my commandos when they get in close with smoke.

10. Raketenwerfer 56: 4 men. The funny thing is youre light arti has more man than this heavy battery. Also 300mm is too heavy co carry it by foot. Sturmpanzer IV is an only bunker killer you need.

Doctrines:
11. Advanced recon - increased sight range +10 is a lot for 1 CP and advanced recon sounds like a joke in an army that has no early spotting unit.

12. Ju87D strike - sounds like better and cheaper P-47. Why cant it drop just 1 big (1800kg or smaller) bomb with point blank accuracy. It would be good for blowing up bridges too.

13. Wespe 475MP is pretty cheap. 25lbs costs 450MP/75fuel! 550MP is the right price.

14. Armor fighting spirit
+1

15. Nashorn - it cant have longer gun range than 17lbs so it would be a more powerfull (but it cant be as powerfull as an immobile 88) MarderIII. Thats another reason to change youre MarderIII to StugIII.

16. Bombard supply routes - sounds like a US/UK tactic. Luftwaffe was mainly to support ground troops.

17. Saboteur squad and Disinformation are nice but a whole Indirect approach strategy is a bad idea. Mixing it with airborne or non german axis units is what I would like to see.

18. Youre Left side of Holding ground strategy is more powerfull than a whole UK arti doctrine.

19. Rugged defense - receive damage 0.5 x receive accuracy 0.75 = 0,375 receive damage. OP. Even a vet 2 terminator captain gives less defence bonuses.

20. Ambush - OP. You want to make a hellcat out of every german tank?

21. Elefant - an Ostheer must-have. :)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: irik on March 24, 2010, 01:00:01 AM
I like this concept. It is Unique, and I think it can counter the Soviets. I think you should give a Stug III instead of Marder III like the person above me said.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 24, 2010, 02:03:35 AM
Some things are great but some I do not like. Ill strat from the start :D and point out these things:

Thanks for the feedback mate :) I'm aware that balance is most important element for CoH. As I said, I like to play PE and I see everyday what can balance do when playing vs US :) no room for error... anyway first some general notes:

- It is really hard to come with something new, especially in terms of weapons because Ostheer is still mostly German army and both other factions (Wehr&PE) covers wide variety of vehicles and infantry which fought in WW2. So I guess in special cases Ostheer could be allowed to have 1-2 similar units as the other two Axis factions. Uniqueness should be in game mechanics mostly - which I tried to design with Fuel loss principle and Vet system.

- When I designed doctrines I tried to think as what would I need if I play totally offensive/defensive or resource war. That is why my doctrines are designed in regards to those facts. If some ability is OP or UP is for now academic question, because it could be proven only when programmed and played extensively. We all remember that when Red Army comes out several moths ago, it needed to be patched really quickly due to imbalance. And I'm pretty sure that developers have done their best to test it very much before first release...

Now to your remarks:

1. I thought about having only 1 medal per unit rule, it all depends on XP costs for medals and abilities. It can be tuned IMO, there are zounds of possibilities. And yes that was the idea that also units which do not saw combat could be promoted (as it is possible for Wehr and slightly for British players too). It should be considered as those units were repositioned from other fronts and gained this experience there. It could be the part of the Ostheer tactic to send waves of weak infantry to gain XP, make then some elite units with medals and charge.

3. In other words Czechoslovak ZB vz.26 Light MG :) yes that could work, but available after tier2 is build.

4. This not possibility to recrew ability really suck and had to be patched IMO to have fun playing EF... otherwise it puts unbalnaced element into game. I guess you are right on this, maybe it should be manned with more men but I don't like it and consider it as a temporary solution only.

5. I tried to avoid light vehicles since whole PE is about those... btw there are PzII and Upgradeable Halftrack in my concept so there are some options on this.

6. That is exatly why I hesitated to include StugIII :), because it is the same as StugIV. I thought that Marder would be better option since it can complete PzIII better - as PzIII rides forward and Marder kites from behind.

8. The whole tier3 should reflect the desperate late war situation for Germany. Maybe it could replace Ostheer infantry as representing that all Axis allies let Germany alone fighting... so after tier3 is build, Ostheer would not be available and only Hitleryouth infantry could be build.

9. These units were considered the best of the best. I agree that I let my imagination losse on Stormtroopers, but elite sniper could work pretty well - better sight range and health, higher cost makes him good for scouting and counter-snipe. Stormtroopers should reflect the SS elite units, as to the death fighting infantry (maybe it should not have the ability to retreat as russians).

10. In this case I didn't checked the weight of RWf56 :) It' not a problem to even replace it with other unit. Any idea? But it should be unit from years 1944-45...

11. Advanced spotting should work for infantry but could be a good benefit to elite sniper too.

12. Hmmm this could be like Goliath from the air, yes I like that idea. But has to create suppress too with siren, this was like icon of early WW2 years.

13. I thought Wespe as small arty piece with slightly bigger range than Mortars. It could be tuned.

15. this all depends on settings (cost, range, damage, speed etc.), I think this should be tuned when testing the game.

16. Well bombard was meant with heavy arty not aircrafts. Germans used those heavy cannons to siege and destroy.

17. Indirect approach is for players who tend to play economically, macro. Using map to control high points and managing resources...

18. It is just smoke, off-map arty and arty-build permit. It is similar to US Inf doctrine right side.

19. Could be tuned.

20. This I thought over and over again. You see this ability should reflect later war development when Germans camouflaged everything, not only on eastern front. Most of the kills to Russian armors were with hidden AT guns luring Russians to traps. Maybe this could be changed to camouflage ability for AT guns and mobile AT guns not tanks.

Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Paciat on March 24, 2010, 06:06:48 PM
[quote author=wordsmith
8. The whole tier3 should reflect the desperate late war situation for Germany. Maybe it could replace Ostheer infantry as representing that all Axis allies let Germany alone fighting... so after tier3 is build, Ostheer would not be available and only Hitleryouth infantry could be build.

16. Well bombard was meant with heavy arty not aircrafts. Germans used those heavy cannons to siege and destroy.

17. Indirect approach is for players who tend to play economically, macro. Using map to control high points and managing resources...

18. It is just smoke, off-map arty and arty-build permit. It is similar to US Inf doctrine right side.
[/quote]
8. Untill the no recrew bug is fixed theres no need for late cheap infantry. Also Hitleryouth werent field divisions they just garisoned in cities.
So how about a very cheap (150MP) 3 man squad call-in that can fire a panzerfaust for free. They could be called out of houses like partisants. Cooldown on this call-in would be very short, cooldown on fire faust (0ammo) long. They would have only pionieer MP40.

16. The problem is that in 1944 only germans were under siege. :( So how about an anti siege ability? :
1/2 of supplies can be gained from cut-off territories.

18. "It is just smoke" I saw it on youtube that 2 mortars created a smoke screen and then some flame pioneres atacked at least 2 bofors, trench with tommies and other emplacements. They lost no man!
Smoke is a very underrated ability. Heres another video becouse I couldnt find the one I was talking about. It also shows the real power of smoke.
CoH Commando Smoke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj68uEODj_A&feature=related#normal)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Ghost on March 24, 2010, 07:02:26 PM
18. "It is just smoke" I saw it on youtube that 2 mortars created a smoke screen and then some flame pioneres atacked at least 2 bofors, trench with tommies and other emplacements. They lost no man!
Smoke is a very underrated ability. Heres another video becouse I couldnt find the one I was talking about. It also shows the real power of smoke.

Do you mean this one (at ~2:40)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRRTo9VFIsQ&feature=player_embedded# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRRTo9VFIsQ&feature=player_embedded#)
CoH Commando Smoke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj68uEODj_A&feature=related#normal)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 24, 2010, 07:52:50 PM
8. Untill the no recrew bug is fixed theres no need for late cheap infantry. Also Hitleryouth werent field divisions they just garisoned in cities.
So how about a very cheap (150MP) 3 man squad call-in that can fire a panzerfaust for free. They could be called out of houses like partisants. Cooldown on this call-in would be very short, cooldown on fire faust (0ammo) long. They would have only pionieer MP40.

16. The problem is that in 1944 only germans were under siege. :( So how about an anti siege ability? :
1/2 of supplies can be gained from cut-off territories.

18. "It is just smoke" I saw it on youtube that 2 mortars created a smoke screen and then some flame pioneres atacked at least 2 bofors, trench with tommies and other emplacements. They lost no man!
Smoke is a very underrated ability. Heres another video becouse I couldnt find the one I was talking about. It also shows the real power of smoke.

8. That could work too, but I wouldn't give such ability for free - this is reserved for Red Army. Could be with classic panzerfaust like Volksgrenadiers have.

16. :) that's true, but I don't know if such thing is possible to implement - gaining resources from cut-off territories. The reason of this ability is to fight resource war. In this case any ability which affect resources gain/loose could be fit in this doctrine. My original idea was also including bombard sounds so it would demoralise the opponent when he heards the distant bombard sounds :D like when you play vs Russian and hear IL-2 bombers sounds... you freeze in terror and know that something terrible is going to happen :)

18. well ya, the smoke could be very effective (and it is one of the things I miss playing PE). The truth is that smoke is more offensive than defensive ability, maybe it could be implemented in Maneuver warfare - as ability for Wespe. Instead smoke barrage ability - some defensive ability could be used... just from top of my head:
- concrete reinforcement - all buildings have +20% health
- local builders - player active ability (150 Ammo), repairs all buildings for short period of time (like Field repairs of US-Armor doctr.)
- close quarters combat - units garrisoned in buildings (trenches, bunkers, strongpoints) have 0.9 damage
etc... any ideas?

I will rework some things in my concept later (like some costst, abilities, units), when I receive more feedback to summarize it. I'm glad that someone is interested, because I designed Ostheer as I would like to play it, but for other players it would maybe not fit... I guess it should be some compromise, important is to have fun playing.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Venoxxis on March 24, 2010, 09:03:40 PM
overall i can say,
that it looks well planned and well done.

Its also a very nice one to see another concept with some
artwork, which makes your concept really much easier to
read as well. Good work about the artworks man,
especially the first ones are very well done.

Okay on the other hand, there is one major critic point for
me atm.
Too many buildings.
I mean, there is almost no map where you can set all these
buildings man, thats a huge problem.



another major thing:



5. Tiger Heavy tank
- available after Tier3 is build
- until researched Reliability upgrade (100 MP, 30 Fuel)  every Tiger produced has possibility 33% engine breakdown similar to critical hit to engine, which is checked in every 1min. interval, result engine damage can be repaired normally (this is reflecting poor reliability of first vehicles)
- max. 2 Tigers are available in game (3 with Panzergruppe upgrade in ESY)

I mean,
What The Hell IS THAT?

Okay, there are a lot of sources showing the tiger as a
panzer which is high likely to break down.
But if you think about the time every single one of these
were in use, you will think in another way about that.

just comparing T-34 to this tank, t-34 were build and sent right to the front to roll in and to get destroyed.

Tigers were mostly well supported and they drove a lot of kilometers more than the short live russian tanks.

Okay, just form the historical side, this is not okay.


But on the other side, the side of gameplay and funplay this
idea shouldnt even be mentioned.
Players would go crazy if thier tigers would simply break down!

This is a no go man!



Regards,
Venoxxis
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 24, 2010, 09:28:51 PM
Okay on the other hand, there is one major critic point for
me atm.
Too many buildings.
I mean, there is almost no map where you can set all these
buildings man, thats a huge problem.

:) thanks man for the compliments. And to your remarks:

1. buildings - there are 3 tier and 3 special buildings (these should be smaller), from which only 2 could be build at one time, which means 5 buildings maximum. Wehr and US has 5 buildings too. Forward strongpoint is like bunker, can be build everywhere.

2. Tiger breakdown - this "ability" I first designed for Panthers :) which were known well for reliability problems with first versions. But as I decided not to include Panthers (for obvious reasons - both PE&Wehr has them) in my concept I put it to Tigers.

Tigers were better but still had reliability issues when were first put into combat. I'm not saying that Tigers were faulty tanks. In fact I like Tigers very much, that is why I want them in Ostheer. But it should not be OP.

Breakdown rule I proposed for the sake of balance of course, not for fun playing it :) - it should make Ostheer player treat Tigers very carefully. It is a handicap vs using 2 or 3 (with upgrade) Tigers at one time in game in comparance to Wehr player who can use only 1 and as a doctrinal unit.

And in conclusion the Breakdown rule could be eliminated with upgrade so I don't think it is a such big problem.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Venoxxis on March 24, 2010, 09:42:14 PM
well yea i understand your thinking man.

for the buildings its ok now, but they should be smal thats right.
but hmmh.. i just hope their enough usefull buildings to get therefore.
(no new buildings, for the reason of coding problems)


But the tiger thing, well, just as i said i understand your
way of thinking. But this solution is not the best one man.

I think you should use a solution similiar to lord rommels and mine,
which gives you the tigers only via an upgrade or something like that,
these are a bit weaker than the wehr tiger even with vet,
but you can have 2 of them.


Tank which break down for the reason of nothing are just funplay breakdowns.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: guynumber7 on March 24, 2010, 11:11:28 PM
Luchs and pz3L need an APCR round ability that increses penetrationf or alittle while for ammo.

the "light artillery" can be leg18, which imo should be able to change from mortar mode to gun mode. in mortar mode the shells arc over and it shotos farther, but they move slow. in gun mode its direct fire.

also, if the panzer 4 is ever put in, it needs to be the AUsf F2, a lighter, faster cruiser version with less armor.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Paciat on March 24, 2010, 11:41:57 PM
Luchs and pz3L need an APCR round ability that increses penetrationf or alittle while for ammo.

the "light artillery" can be leg18, which imo should be able to change from mortar mode to gun mode. in mortar mode the shells arc over and it shotos farther, but they move slow. in gun mode its direct fire.

also, if the panzer 4 is ever put in, it needs to be the AUsf F2, a lighter, faster cruiser version with less armor.
Luchs would probably be a puma/T-90 with +50HP so it dosnt need AT ability. PzIII is the main tank in this concept so it needs a good (better than Pumas 50mm) gun or/and an ability (ACPR, treadbreaker or my choice - focused fire with a 100% accuracy on tanks even when on the move).

Imo Leg18 shouldnt have a direct fire mode. Fireing mortar barrages and stubby shells is too much for 1 unit.
Just think what if 25lbs could direct fire. It could destroy infantry, artillery, AT guns, light vechicles and even PzIV.
Leg18 should be a very accurate arti that can counter mortars. Range should be the same as UK mortars pits with a supercharge ability (120).

Theres a PzII, PzIIIj, MarderIII(I want a stubby stugIIIe with a gun upgrade instead) and TigerI in this concept.
Theres no room for a 3rd PzIV.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 25, 2010, 12:39:56 AM
Luchs and pz3L need an APCR round ability that increses penetrationf or alittle while for ammo.

PzII should be like slightly better than Armored Car and PzIII should be worse than T34 but better than T70. I think the closest to PzIII design is Hotchkiss tank. For better AT capability there are AT guns, AT infantry and MarderIII (which I'm considering to replace with StugIII f.e. as Paciat suggests) until Tiger hits the field.

This was exactly as it happened during WW2, first the Germans used lots of Light/Medium tanks (like PzIII or IV) but then they encountered some Russian armors T34, KV-1 which were far stronger and Germans had to adapt. And Panthers and Tigers were the answer (among the other heavy AT guns).

In my original concept I had a PzIVF2 but then decided to drop it because Wehr&PE had some version of PzIV too.

Post Merge: March 25, 2010, 09:39:58 AM
But the tiger thing, well, just as i said i understand your
way of thinking. But this solution is not the best one man.

I think you should use a solution similiar to lord rommels and mine,
which gives you the tigers only via an upgrade or something like that,
these are a bit weaker than the wehr tiger even with vet,
but you can have 2 of them.

Tank which break down for the reason of nothing are just funplay breakdowns.

yes I understand too, that it sounds bad when you hear that your Tiger will breakdown for nothing... BUT as I explained:
- the reason is balance (and it is a little historically acurate too)
- it is not a big problem - it can be repaired quickly
- Tiger will still be able to shoot and turn turret
- you just need to be carefull for some time until research Reliability upgr.
- after this upgr. you have no problem

Please try to imagine the situation - you build 2 Tigers, which are good for 1st minute in game and you send them both to combat. The worst thing that could happen is that engine will break after several minutes on both of the Tigers and will be unable to move. But they still will be capable of fight, shooting and turret turning! so if you position them carefully you shouldn't have much troubles. You can have one repair unit (like Pioneer hlaftrack) close to repair engine damage and you are fine. Until you research Reliability upgrade and after then you have 2 fully capable Tigers.

I don't see the difference - you suggest that Tiger should be available after some upgrade, well this is exactly my point too - Tiger (without any faults) will be available after upgrade too. :)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Paciat on March 25, 2010, 12:17:03 PM
Quote
PzIII should be worse than T34 but better than T70. I think the closest to PzIII design is Hotchkiss tank.
I think that the PzIII should have PzIV armor (not Hotchkiss) but only 450-500HP.
So PzIII would be a much faster Churchill witch less HP. No fraction has this kind of tank. It would be an ultimate light armor killer.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Venoxxis on March 25, 2010, 04:14:30 PM
okay, i simply understood this wrong somehow.
But where do i research it?

I searched your whole concept for this word now, but it
was just found at your tiger tank.

Did you forget to add it into your update hall?
-> there is just the upgrade for the 3 tigers.
this is the place where i was searching for the upgrade
but with no results ;)

- also, 3 tigers are too many.


and by the way,
good work @ your doctrines.
They look tough and well. Also how you build them up
is quite logicially. That makes them really "doctrinal".

Most concepts here dont have such doc's which would fit
in CoH that well.
There are just some things which are too expensive or too
inexpensive, but well thats balance.

the only thing i dont like is the Nashorn, for the reason
of being to similiar to the elefant, just worse armoured.
and for the reason to look just like the hummel.
As other mods showed, thats really boring.


nevertheless good work here ;)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 25, 2010, 08:03:48 PM
okay, i simply understood this wrong somehow.
But where do i research it?

It is meant to research in Tier2 building, right where the Tiger could be build. However it is not exactly writen I just assumed it :) thank you for pointing it, when I will make next changes I will update it.

- also, 3 tigers are too many.

Normally 2 Tigers, but with upgrade 3. As you can see the Panzergruppe upgrade is possible only in Emergency supply yard (ESY), which is mutually exclusive to Specialist training facility (STF). This means player had 2 choices what to build: either ESY and then no special units but 3 Tigers possibility or going STF and have 3 special fighting units but only 2 Tigers.

The logic is to keep balance in game and for player to make strategic decision if going more for special infantry units or going for more resource control and increased number of Tigers.

and by the way,
good work @ your doctrines.
They look tough and well. Also how you build them up
is quite logicially. That makes them really "doctrinal".

Most concepts here dont have such doc's which would fit
in CoH that well.
There are just some things which are too expensive or too
inexpensive, but well thats balance.

the only thing i dont like is the Nashorn, for the reason
of being to similiar to the elefant, just worse armoured.
and for the reason to look just like the hummel.
As other mods showed, thats really boring.


nevertheless good work here ;)

Thank you mate :D I really appreciate that someone like it. I like your and Lord Rommel's concepts too. They are both full of original ideas (like your heavy bunker +1) and thought well through. I created my concept as I would like to play it but I know that every player has its own perks which would like to play eventually. I thought it would be easier to make own concept but it was really hard. I spend lots of work on it so I appreciate every other man who finished its own concept cause I know how lot of work it is. And as I also said - I really like your artwork man, this was huge inspiration for me :) to create something like that too... and I really enjoyed it.

In regards to Nashorn, yes I agree that it is not very original to have 2 similar AT guns. But as I mentioned in this discussion - it is hard to pick any original equipment because Wehr&PE covers wide variety of units. And as for Nashorn itself I meant it to be attack AT gun which kites from behind of main tank force. Ostheer needs some kind of AT guns, Pak38 has Wehr so it leaves only heavy pieces 7.5cm or 8.8cm AT guns which are too heavy to be able to move by men. And to make them static like 17pounder would not be original too.

So Nashorn from this perspective is good compromise. I imagine Nashorn with combination of Wespe and some PzIII+Tigers as mobile force assaulting together as armored spear, maneuvering and fighting. Elefant is too slow to keep up with other vehicles. That is why I put Elefant into defensive doctrine and Nashorn into offensive doctrine.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: OB3R on March 26, 2010, 02:35:55 AM
If the tiger was made uber like it should be then 1 would be plenty, I think atm the way it is its a waste of mp and ep to even make one as a Russian AT guy can take it out with about 5 shots.
OB3R
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Shadowmetroid on March 26, 2010, 05:28:33 AM

- also, 3 tigers are too many.

Normally 2 Tigers, but with upgrade 3. As you can see the Panzergruppe upgrade is possible only in Emergency supply yard (ESY), which is mutually exclusive to Specialist training facility (STF). This means player had 2 choices what to build: either ESY and then no special units but 3 Tigers possibility or going STF and have 3 special fighting units but only 2 Tigers.

The logic is to keep balance in game and for player to make strategic decision if going more for special infantry units or going for more resource control and increased number of Tigers.

The point still stands that a POSSIBLE 3 non-doctrinal TIGERS, PLUS anything else you can get in one of the doctrines becomes something out-of -control.

Make it 1 Tiger (+ another one with panzergruppe upgrade)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 26, 2010, 11:43:59 AM
The point still stands that a POSSIBLE 3 non-doctrinal TIGERS, PLUS anything else you can get in one of the doctrines becomes something out-of -control.

Make it 1 Tiger (+ another one with panzergruppe upgrade)

The point is that you have to consider bigger picture than just comparing 1 or 2 Tigers availability. In case Russian will spam IS-2 you are doomed with 1 Tiger as in my concept there are no other reasonable hard counter to other heavy tanks - PzIII will not stand even vs T34/85 spam. Please note that Panthers, PzIVs and stronger AT guns are not included in this concept. The only other option would be doctrinal Nashorn (weak armor) or doctrinal Elefant (restricted to 1 unit). Pak36 is too weak vs heavy armors MarderIII/StugIII would not survive such assault either. AT infantry could help but it is not hard counter to IS-2.

Tiger would cost more than IS-2, had higher popcap and had to be upgraded for reliability otherwise its use is limited. Not to mention the Fuel loss principle which could cause serious fuel income drainage after some vehicle loses.

I designed the Ostheer as faction which should have slight initial advantage in tanks but with disatvantage of fuel shortage in later game - which is also historically accurate btw.

One short calculation:
If you want to produce 3 Tigers it would cost overall 2350 MP and 525 Fuel (with Panzergruppe and Reliability upgrades)
For that price you could have 4x IS-2.
If Russian player loses the IS-2s he can rebuild them easilly. If Ostheer player loses 2x Tigers it equals like loosing one low income fuel territory - permanently.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Paciat on March 26, 2010, 12:55:24 PM
The point still stands that a POSSIBLE 3 non-doctrinal TIGERS, PLUS anything else you can get in one of the doctrines becomes something out-of -control.

Make it 1 Tiger (+ another one with panzergruppe upgrade)

The point is that you have to consider bigger picture than just comparing 1 or 2 Tigers availability. In case Russian will spam IS-2 you are doomed with 1 Tiger as in my concept there are no other reasonable hard counter to other heavy tanks - PzIII will not stand even vs T34/85 spam. Please note that Panthers, PzIVs and stronger AT guns are not included in this concept. The only other option would be doctrinal Nashorn (weak armor) or doctrinal Elefant (restricted to 1 unit). Pak36 is too weak vs heavy armors MarderIII/StugIII would not survive such assault either. AT infantry could help but it is not hard counter to IS-2.

Tiger would cost more than IS-2, had higher popcap and had to be upgraded for reliability otherwise its use is limited. Not to mention the Fuel loss principle which could cause serious fuel income drainage after some vehicle loses.
I think there is no point of making a 3 on the field limit Tiger I becouse thats 3 Tigers alone is 42 pop. Also Tigers are not counters to IS-2 becouse their too expensive. Cheap Pak or Panther spamming is real a counter to IS-2 and youre army dosnt have anything like that.

This is my concept:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2681.0 (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2681.0)
Ill underline the counters to IS-2 spam in this post.

There is no PzIV or a Panther in it. PzIII is also the only medium tank.

Theres a 7,5cm AT gun upgrade that lets biuld AT emplacements and replaces stubby stugIIIe with a long barreled stugIIIf/g.

A JagdpanzerIV with an panthers gun is the late game tank killer that can take on an IS-2. It costs 500MP/90Fuel. It has "only" 650HP but jagdpanthers armor.

There is only 1 on the field Tiger I tank but there are also a 1 time call-ins of a Tiger Ace in a manouver doctrine and Elephant in a siege doctrine.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 26, 2010, 01:21:47 PM
I think there is no point of making a 3 on the field limit Tiger I becouse thats 3 Tigers alone is 42 pop. Also Tigers are not counters to IS-2 becouse their too expensive. Cheap Pak or Panther spamming is real a counter to IS-2 and youre army dosnt have anything like that.

There is point at least when playing not only 1vs1 but games with more players involved. And in my concept Tigers are counter to IS-2 because yet there is no other option. I considered Jagdpanzer IV too but decided not to include it just because then Nashorn or Elephant would not be so unique. At least Nashorn would be redundant then...

The bitching about too many Tigers comes from the fact that most players when facing Wehr opponent with Tiger doesn't realize that Tiger had usually vet3 and is backed up with some Panthers/PzIV mix which is not possible in my concept. Not to mention that if Wehr Tiger is destroyed it can be called again and veterancy remains making it real pain in the ass.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Venoxxis on March 26, 2010, 02:04:56 PM

Thank you mate :D I really appreciate that someone like it. I like your and Lord Rommel's concepts too. They are both full of original ideas (like your heavy bunker +1) and thought well through. I created my concept as I would like to play it but I know that every player has its own perks which would like to play eventually. I thought it would be easier to make own concept but it was really hard. I spend lots of work on it so I appreciate every other man who finished its own concept cause I know how lot of work it is. And as I also said - I really like your artwork man, this was huge inspiration for me :) to create something like that too... and I really enjoyed it.

Yes its really hard to create a concept on your own i had to
learn that on my own man ;)
But its pretty cool to see other people building up their concepts
like i did, because in my opionion its simply the clearest way of all.
But hell yea, its a ton work.

+1


About the tiger, I didnt think about its ability to take out
any tank of the soviets at all guys.
This Panzer is far more deadly than everything against infantry.
It takes out 3 rager squads at the same time easily, if you know how to use it though.
And these are the strongest AT inf of the allies.
Just think about 3 of them rolling into your blob, this blob would be gone with just a few shots.
This PANZER can kill one whole squad with only ONE shot. The tigers 88 has the best surface damage of alltanks in the whole game, even better than the one of the KT. (hell knows why).

Also, this doesnt need veterancy, since the vet of the tiger
is just passiv. (-> better def. data)
look:  http://coh-stats.com/Veterancy:Tiger (http://coh-stats.com/Veterancy:Tiger)
Just expand the "Tiger Veterancy" window.

Also Paks are no match for it, even 2 at the sime time. (micro)
if your lucky, you can take a pak with only one shot out (form the back).

This tank is a allrounder. And is fast enough as well.
making it the best tank of the whole game.

The impact 3 Tigers would cause is just hilarious.
Without talking about its AT ablities as well.


This isnt any kind of bitching, its just criticizing a funky part of your concept m8 ;) ! Think about what you will do with this critism we are doing here atm!



Regards, anyways its your concept ;)
-V-
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 26, 2010, 02:49:39 PM

Also, this doesnt need veterancy, since the vet of the tiger
is just passiv.

Also Paks are no match for it, even 2 at the sime time. (micro)
if your lucky, you can take a pak with only one shot out (form the back).

This isnt any kind of bitching, its just criticizing a funky part of your concept m8 ;) ! Think about what you will do with this critism we are doing here atm!

It needs veterancy otherwise 2x AT guns would rape it (when properly backed up with some armor and/or inf) especially US 57mm with AP shot ability.

And by bitching I meant not about my concept but in general about Tigers in other topics here on this forum. :) I have no problem with criticism if it is constructive. But I think when players feel the more Tigers would be OP, they should consider bigger picture too, like that Wehr Tiger would be different than Ostheer Tiger due to difference in veterancy, support units and other stuff (game mechanics, tech, doctrines)...

Hypothetical question - would be Tiger OP if:
- it costs 1000 MP and 250 Fuel?
- if it has 16 popcap?
- will take about 3 minutes to produce?
- it has no veterenacy bonuses?
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: hgghg4 on March 29, 2010, 05:13:12 AM
No it would be underpowered at that time. Keep the resource cost, 12 Pop, Panther Build time and gains vet, but slowly but once it gains vet3 it is a powerful force on the battlefield and rightly so... it wouldn't be a game winner by any stretch
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on March 30, 2010, 02:29:15 PM
No it would be underpowered at that time. Keep the resource cost, 12 Pop, Panther Build time and gains vet, but slowly but once it gains vet3 it is a powerful force on the battlefield and rightly so... it wouldn't be a game winner by any stretch

My point was that Tiger could be tuned with costs so then more Tigers could be available. I don't like the unit limit on non-doctinal units produced in factories. Such thing is not implemented in whole CoH except British LT/Captain/Comm.Tank.

On coh-stats.com there is Tiger costs stated as 980MP 220Fuel 14 Popcap:
http://coh-stats.com/Vehicle:Tiger (http://coh-stats.com/Vehicle:Tiger)

I think if such costs used, no unit limit would be necessary...

One thing could be done to prevent spam of Tigers, I call it Progressive popcap. It means that first Tiger build has 14 popcap, next would have 16 and next 18 and so on representing the fact that Tiger was state of the art technology and it required high prestige to obtain more of them. If some Tiger is destroyed this Popcap will decrease too so the popcap limit could be then like this:
1 Tiger  14
2 Tigers 30
3 Tigers 48
4 Tigers 68
5 Tigers 90

With such limits it is obvious that no more that 2-3 Tigers will usually be present on the field.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Venoxxis on March 30, 2010, 05:37:27 PM
I like that sort of solution as well for the reasons you just mentioned.

But on the other hand, a THAT like expensive tiger would be almost unreachable in a usual game. also for its power, its a but too much i think. especially that amount of fuel is outstanding.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Paciat on March 30, 2010, 06:28:33 PM
It must be annoying to answer about the Tiger I time and time again.
The truth is StugIV (and StuH) is 4pop and noone complanes that it is OP.
If you let youre oponent build 3 Tigers and not have a counter to them than you should loose the game.
Same thing with 4 Panthers or 11! StugIV.

Tigers are a breakthtu weapons and 2 AT guns (only 280MP 3pop each) for every Tiger is the least you could build to counter them.

About the coh-stats.com Tiger I cost:
PE Panther costs 640MP 140Fuel while Jagdpanther costs 300MP 0Fuel! These values are only important when you gain CPs for a destroyed/lost tank.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Shadowmetroid on March 30, 2010, 06:46:48 PM
No it would be underpowered at that time. Keep the resource cost, 12 Pop, Panther Build time and gains vet, but slowly but once it gains vet3 it is a powerful force on the battlefield and rightly so... it wouldn't be a game winner by any stretch

My point was that Tiger could be tuned with costs so then more Tigers could be available. I don't like the unit limit on non-doctinal units produced in factories. Such thing is not implemented in whole CoH except British LT/Captain/Comm.Tank.

On coh-stats.com there is Tiger costs stated as 980MP 220Fuel 14 Popcap:
http://coh-stats.com/Vehicle:Tiger (http://coh-stats.com/Vehicle:Tiger)

I think if such costs used, no unit limit would be necessary...

One thing could be done to prevent spam of Tigers, I call it Progressive popcap. It means that first Tiger build has 14 popcap, next would have 16 and next 18 and so on representing the fact that Tiger was state of the art technology and it required high prestige to obtain more of them. If some Tiger is destroyed this Popcap will decrease too so the popcap limit could be then like this:
1 Tiger  14
2 Tigers 30
3 Tigers 48
4 Tigers 68
5 Tigers 90

With such limits it is obvious that no more that 2-3 Tigers will usually be present on the field.

If there is a "progressive popcap" (good idea, btw.) Then 3 Tigers aren't so bad after all.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: hgghg4 on April 01, 2010, 05:31:40 AM
It must be annoying to answer about the Tiger I time and time again.
The truth is StugIV (and StuH) is 4pop and noone complanes that it is OP.


That is because a 57 can two shot them with AP rounds and 3-4 shot them w/o the Stug is best used as a supporting unit not a breakthrough, the only time I use it as a MBT is if I do the random stomp here and there with friends, then I really don't care because I am just messin around anyway
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 04, 2010, 06:27:46 PM
I've updated my concept a little with regards to comments and feedback I received. The list of changes is following (v2.1):

- Ostheer infantry has now ability to obtain Light MG

- no limit to Tiger tanks but increased it costs to 900 MP 200 Fuel

- Tiger received a "Progressive popcap" attribute

- decreased size/cost of the Hitleryouth infantry (3men) and renamed it to Reserves infantry

- decreased abilities/cost of Elite stromtroopers and renamed it to Assault squad

- increased crew for Raketenwerfer 56 (6 men)

- add new unit Flakpanzer Kugelblitz, mobile AAA (replaces Brummbär which is now doctrinal)

- replaced Panzergrenadier with Gebirgsjäger, long range scout infantry

- replaced Panzergruppe upgrade with Advanced recruiting upgrade

- replaced "Convert resources" abilities with "Organize supply" abilities

- tuned veterancy bonuses slightly

- tuned Ju87D strike (now drop only 1+2 bombs for 250 Ammo)

- changed "Smoke barrage" in Holding ground doctrine to "Carefull positioning" ability

- changed "15cm Artillery" in Holding ground doctrine to " Sturmpanzer IV" call-in ability

- tuned "Ambush"  ability in Holding ground doctrine, now only AT guns available to cloak

Looking forward to your feedback. Thank you all for the support!
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. on April 04, 2010, 06:58:52 PM
One thing i cant understand;
there are so MUCH german anti air vehicles
and you guys chose for the most times one
of the untypical eastern front weapon systems...
The Kugelblitz perhaps fought at the Battle of
Berlin, a very "representing battle" for the
hole eastern front...

I cant relay understand this any longer... ::)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 04, 2010, 07:29:27 PM
there are so MUCH german anti air vehicles
and you guys chose for the most times one
of the untypical eastern front weapon systems...

I'm aware of fact that Kugelblitz was not widely used but I have my reasons why I put it into my concept:

- it is nice and advanced design and it was was used at least at end of war
- I didn't want to use already used by Wehr&PE Ostwind and Wirbelwind
- Flakpanzer38t and Moebelwagen were obsolete and doesn't fit as in my Tier3 building I wanted to include 1944-45 units
- T34 Flakvierling was used maybe even less than Kugelblitz but was my second choice, I prefer Kugel
- I didn't want to include some more Halftrack AA units, as I have already one in my concept

Maybe I'm missing something but which AA vehicles did you mean? Any tip on the mobile Flak unit?... if considered my above writen remarks. ;)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. on April 04, 2010, 07:37:56 PM
Well. I think tier 3 doesnt mean automaticaly "heavy late war units" ;) So i cant see any reason why a Flakpanzer 38 t Gepard couldnt appear in a tier 3 building.

And anti air units;
well. Think there are some nice half tracks for this
job  ;D I like half tracks  ;D

But one point; when u had already a anti air gun at your concept why do u add a second weapon for this job?
I mean where are the reason for build this unit and not the other one and the other way around?
I think it is absolutly enough when u had one weapon for each battle mission ( anti tank, main tank, anti air, artillery, and so on^^ ).
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 04, 2010, 09:02:48 PM
Well. I think tier 3 doesnt mean automaticaly "heavy late war units" ;) So i cant see any reason why a Flakpanzer 38 t Gepard couldnt appear in a tier 3 building.

:) well it is because I wanted to have at least some global meaning of my Tier buildings like timeline of some sort, so Tier 1 represents the first war years and last Tier3 represents the last years of war. No other reason just tried to sort the tiers logic like time went.

But one point; when u had already a anti air gun at your concept why do u add a second weapon for this job?
I mean where are the reason for build this unit and not the other one and the other way around?

Ok now I see that you didn't read my concept through :) because Sdkfz.251/17 "Flak38" is available only with "Emergency supply yard" building which is mutually exclusive with "Specialist training facility". This means if some player builds a second one - STF then it will be not possible to make that upgrade (just other 81mm mortar upgr). Besides Kugelblitz should be tougher and more powerfull than Sdkfz251 halftrack.

The reason for those 2 buildings is to force the player to make a strategic decision which units/game style will be needed. It is similar to US when player can build Barracks or Weapons support center, but for Ostheer there is one only rule in my concept. As all strategic decisions also this one should be with considering all risks and pros/cons of both buildings - or go just straight for Tier2.

I think having several options could be fun to play and for opponent could be also some enigma to think what could be used against him because several options would be possible and he could gain/loose advantage if choose wrong. ;) Diversity of options could be fun to play.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Cranialwizard on April 07, 2010, 10:11:02 PM
The Best Ostheer Suggestion Seen.

Honestly, I've looked over a bunch of the others, and this one seems easy to manipulate with and test out. It also seems that they can counter the Soviets well.

I like how your EXP system is planned.

For doctrines, I really liked the April Fools joke posted on the updates  ;D

But if the Modder's decided to pick this system and do away with their doctrine, I'd be all in on this one. It's very powerful and is a +3 for ANY army.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 09, 2010, 02:45:19 AM
Thank you man! :) I enjoyed it. I also created a Ostheer vs Red Army chart if someone is interested:

(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3233/techgraph1.th.png) (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/techgraph1.png/)

(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4425/techgraph2.th.png) (http://img714.imageshack.us/i/techgraph2.png/)

I made it just for fun creating it, if there are some innacuracies please write me a comment and I will correct it. After all it is almost 3am and I have to get up to work in morning ;)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Cranialwizard on April 09, 2010, 03:53:58 AM
I'm actually making my own suggestion, it's becoming very indepth and difficult, and I haven't even started the doctrines XD

But I'll pull through. There will be two diffrent infantry buildings, German for more elite and Foreign for basic starting units :D
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 22, 2010, 11:28:45 AM
Ok, as I promised to one friend I'm putting the source files for graphics here. Feel free to use it to make your own graphics. I think it could help you to present your Ostheer or Strategy&Tactics ideas. Files are in MS Powerpoint 2007 ".pptx" because it is so easy to use and using this I could export graphics as ".png" or ".jpg" images.

PS: and thanks to Venoxxis who inspired me with his graphics to do this :)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Venoxxis on April 22, 2010, 04:20:06 PM
I always wanted to say several times already that im pretty impressed from your work here.

These images are great man, keep up the good work with your concept.


and really no problem about the inspiration :)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: cephalos on April 22, 2010, 08:05:46 PM
I don't know if it was mentioned, but I wonder how do you imagine playing against Indirect Approach Strategy. I mean this ability, I can't remember name, for 300 mp giving player +50 mun and fuel in one minute time should be replaced or finish on the end of tree. It's too powerful for the first minutes of game.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 22, 2010, 08:29:17 PM
@Venoxxis: thanks man :) I'm impressed with your work too.

I don't know if it was mentioned, but I wonder how do you imagine playing against Indirect Approach Strategy. I mean this ability, I can't remember name, for 300 mp giving player +50 mun and fuel in one minute time should be replaced or finish on the end of tree. It's too powerful for the first minutes of game.

All things like costs and abilities could be tuned, it is not written in the stone ;) but as speaking about first minutes of play you have to consider the fact that 300MP equals one unit which could be reason to loose whole game. Of course I'm considering just 1vs1 500VP automatch type games, and yes I agree that during 2vs2 or more player matches it could be OP. As I said - this could be tuned, important is the overall idea of this doctrine: manipulate resources and play economy instead of playing tactical finesse.

And small detail, ability doesn't "give" you 50 Ammo&Fuel but increases Fuel and Ammo income. Would it be ok if it increases the income f.e. +30Ammo/min. and +20Fuel/min.?
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Ghost on April 23, 2010, 12:37:31 AM
one of the concepts i really enjoyed to read because it's clear and detailed and has some nice pictures not just text  ;) good work, keep it up!

Quote
1st tank:
[...]Brit: 15+30+35+70 = 150 (Cromwell)
[...]
should be: Brit: 15+30+35+65+70 = 215 (Cromwell)
65 fuel for the armor command truck

and first wehrmacht tank would be stugIV
Wehrmacht: 35+50+35+50 = 170 (StugIV)
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 23, 2010, 01:25:44 AM
should be: Brit: 15+30+35+65+70 = 215 (Cromwell)
65 fuel for the armor command truck

and first wehrmacht tank would be stugIV
Wehrmacht: 35+50+35+50 = 170 (StugIV)

Thank you! Noted and corrected. Now you can see that I do not play Brit much :) and if yes I do not build Armor Command Truck and just stick to lower Tiers. And StugIV I guess I meant tank with turret but I put also Stug there for the comparison.

Heh regarding graphics it was fun to do it. That is why I posted those source .ppt files, so other could make something similar. It is better to read the ideas or concepts with some pics. Now I'm working on something other with nice graphics but it will be posted in off-topic ;) kinda surprise, but will take me some time...
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Cranialwizard on April 23, 2010, 01:43:53 AM
Is there another way or program I can access these with? I don't have PPT :(
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 23, 2010, 08:59:40 AM
Ok try this one, I saved it as an older version in ".ppt" format. These can be open for example with OpenOffice:

http://www.openoffice.org/ (http://www.openoffice.org/)

which is free to download, use "Open Office Impress" for opening Powerpoint presentations. I tried it and it works :) but you need this version of source files ".ppt" not from my post before, those were ".pptx".
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Cranialwizard on April 23, 2010, 12:18:41 PM
Thank you so much!
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Olorin on April 27, 2010, 10:43:11 AM
I must say, overall I think the concept is great. However, I think that some of the units, the infantry in particular, seem rather generic. I have a suggestion of my own to make that may perhaps give more of a unique and individual feel to the faction.

I really like the idea of the 'reserve squad' but I think what I am proposing is a more evolved concept of it. Late in the war, Germany began using 'Volkssturm' troops, which means 'The people's storm' or something like that. I think this would be much more feasible than Hitler Youth conscripts, and they were much more widely used. The Volkssturm troops were mostly conscripts drawn from citizens that had been considered too young or too old to be conscripted before, of course with the impending defeat that changed things. Their basic function would be essentially as you outline for the reserve troops, but I think you can also go another step.

One thing that sometimes annoys me with company of heroes in general is that so many units use the same weapons, even if that is historically accurate, however it's cool to see some unique weapons that were still used on a wide enough scale to be believable in the game.

For the Volkssturm Squad, I think it would be interesting if they came with the MP-3008, a variant of the MP-40 redesigned to be manufactured cheaper for use among the Volkssturm. In gameplay terms it would function almost identically to the MP-40, but I believe it would add individuality and uniqueness to the unit while still maintaining historical accuracy and realism. As an upgrade option, I think the VG 1-5 would be appropriate. The VG 1-5 was a variant of the STG 44 intended specifically for the Volkssturm and redesigned to be manufactured more cheaply. In gameplay terms, it would be similar to the STG(MP)-44 except that it would be semi-automatic instead of automatic. The squad could, balance permitting, have the option to fire a panzerfaust at a nominal munition cost.

I believe that this would be much more interesting than the generic 'reserve squad' and realistic and fun.

MP-3008 Reference Page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_3008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_3008)

VG 1-5 Reference Page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5)

Volkssturm Squad Visual Reference: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/volkssturm/ib_vs_img1.jpg (http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/volkssturm/ib_vs_img1.jpg)

Volkstturm Poster: http://www.german-helmets.com/SAURLAND/poster-volkssturm-bw.jpg (http://www.german-helmets.com/SAURLAND/poster-volkssturm-bw.jpg)

EDIT: Alternatively, I came up with another possibility for the loadout and abilities of the Volkssturm Squad. The default Volkssturm Squad would have the MP-3008 as described, but then where it goes from there varies depending on whether you have built the Specialist Training Facility or the Emergency Supply Yard.

If you have built the Emergency supply yard, then the Volkssturm Squad can fire a panzerfaust, free of munitions, which would be balanced by a longer cooldown time perhaps. In the hypothetical adoption of this concept, the Volkssturm Squad could only fire the panzerfaust if you have the Emergency Supply Yard.

If you have built the Specialist Training Facility, then the Volkssturm squad does not have the ability to fire the panzerfaust period, and comes equipped with the VG 1-5 or alternatively has the ability to upgrade to the VG 1-5, as well as the ability to throw a grenade at a nominal munition cost.

Now that I think about it more, these ideas do fit the overall theme of this concept, which is the war in 'stages' so to speak. My concept for the unit is less of a 'cheap unit to spam' and more of a moderately effective unit that is very useful for those low on resources, and hence those who probably have less territory and are losing.

I will elaborate. With the emergency supply yard variant, the squad is going to be more of an anti-vehicle squad than an anti infantry. Since the panzerfaust uses are free, this encourages the use of the unit when the player has little to no access to munitions. This is counterbalanced by the fact that their is a relatively longer cooldown time compared to say the panzerfaust of the Volksgrenadier, and the fact that the panzerfaust is only marginally effective against armor compared to the panzershreck. Thus when the player is doing poorly/has few territories, they would be more likely to use this unit which actually reflects the historical employment of these soldiers, but when they are doing well they would be better off to spend the resources on troops that they can purchase panzershrecks for.

The same is true for the Specialist Training Facility variant, but in a slightly different sense. If they come equipped with the VG 1-5, they will be a decent anti-infantry squad. However, compared to a true STG 44, it is not nearly as effective since the VG 1-5 only has a semi-automatic firing mode. Therefore if the player has the resources to spend on troops that can have STG 44's purchased for them, then they would be better off doing so. However, in the opposite case, since the Volkssturm squad costs only manpower, I would presume, that the cost of the lessened effectiveness would be worth the trade-off due to the fact that you do not have to expend munitions to get the VG 1-5.

This unit would be able to help the Ostheer player stabilize his line and regain his footing against swarms of cheap Soviet infantry or vehicles until more territories can be acquired and more powerful units purchased. Not to mention the fact that since this is not a tier 1 unit, that I do not think it would be particularly unbalancing.

I have some other ideas floating around in my head to improve the overall idea of this particular concept for the Ostheer faction, and would be glad to share them if you are interested.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 27, 2010, 01:02:30 PM
@Olorin - wow, first of all I'm impressed with your research ability and want to thank you for putting a new ideas into this concept. I like your proposal of weapons for Reserve squad, it could fit and would be playable as well.  :D

My original idea of Reserve squad was to have some cheap infantry which could be literally spammed to quick regain of some territories. I got this idea playing Soviets ;) because in late game sometimes I got pushed back and Soviet Conscripts were always good and cheap alternative to regain map control, even in late game with lots of armors and elite infantry around. It work quite good for Soviet and supplement its late war units. Germans too, when defendig their "Fatherland" were forced to use everything (everyone) to stop the Red Tide of Soviets. Using Volksturm or Hitleryouth was one of those desperate measures so I wanted to implement it into Ostheer too. Your ideas enhance Reserve squad idea, so I think you should post it into units idea thread too:

 --> Lord Rommel - Unit suggestion thread (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3001.0)
... with explanations of function of Reserves and possible upgrades, you can call it Ostheer Volksturm or something like that

About my concept in general... I think lot of players don't like the Fuel loss principle idea. Again it was idea to have early armors faster then other factions but for a price - fuel loss, since german armors were very valuable late in the war. When I thought about this more deeply I realized that this idea is not very good because it would be hard to balance and will put very big gap between good players and those average - simply because average players would not be able to benefit from early armors and would eventually loose due to lack of fuel. On the other hand good players able to benefit from quick armors would literally roll over the opponents and again average players would be beaten and would curse the imbalance :).

Another flaw of my concept would be redundancy of some units, this I realized when I wrote this Unit summary:

--> General unit summary analysis (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3320.0)

I think that the best it would be to rework the whole concept and maybe to combine it with my other idea of Campaign style tech-up:

-->New Ost. tech idea - optional tech system (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=3326.0)
... but I don't have time for this :).

IMO the Devs would come up with their own idea of Ostheer, maybe inspired by some ideas posted here in forum so there's no need to write whole concepts, just some interesting thoughts.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Olorin on April 27, 2010, 01:38:36 PM
One thing I always liked about the British was their defensive playstyle. I like to turtle a lot, and it' something that the Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite can't really do. I thought the whole idea of a mobile base was brilliant, as you could choose to set up and fortify the most defensible position.

Assuming that the overall concept for the Ostheer does follow the soviet one which involves depicting the start of the war to the end, I think it would be interesting to give the final stage of the Ostheer a defensive spin. I came up with an idea that is inspired by the British, but distinct and wholly unique.

So assuming that the faction will follow the flow of the war, with tier 3 representing the Germans on the defensive, I think it would be interesting to give the faction a potential to play defensively a bit, if the player chooses.

I took a look at the Defensive Station and came up with a unique idea. First, the forward strong point should just be done away with. The idea I have is that the Defensive Station would be a base building as you described, except that you have the ability to build it in any friendly territory, with a limit of being able to just have 1 Defensive Station at a time. In addition to that, there are a few things that would also make this unique, the first being is that it is a base building that you can build in any friendly territory, which is unique among any CoH faction as far as I know.

I had some ideas of a few features for the building in addition to this. One or several of the following could be implemented

-Infantry units can reinforce from the Defensive station
-The station can be upgraded to heal infantry in the territory
-The station provides a defensive bonus, similar to the British Captain, to all units in the territory.
-All infantry gain the ability to retreat to wherever the Defensive Station is built
-The station can be garrisoned
-The station has a mortar pit
-The station has a flakvierling on top

In particular, I think the ability for infantry to retreat to the building and the ability for infantry to reinforce from it are critical. Using this concept, the base building functions as the last tier 3 building, and can function as a kind of final redoubt, since it can be built in whatever territory you won and can be placed in a very defensible area, which reflects the defensive nature the war took on for the Germans following their defeat Kursk.

Of course with the removal of the Forward Strong Point, they would need some other defensive structure, which I have not thought of yet.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 27, 2010, 06:32:37 PM
Yes this is an unique idea indeed, to have one unit producing building as a defensive building - something like forward HQ but able to build everywhere. But as you describe it, it would be OP for sure :) I know it would be nice, but no one will play against Ostheer then.

Try to imagine: every unit could retreat to some point which is close to frontline, and they got reinforced and healed at this point. And this building could produce even new units and would have defensive Flak + Mortar pit. As such it should cost like 1000MP, 200Ammo and 100Fuel to produce :) It would be like fortress in the middle of the battlefield - and thus a target of every Allies direct or indirect fire units. It would create a massive mayhem...

If you compare to other factions:
- Wehr bunker could reinforce but only as doctrinal
- Wehr forward HW could be build only in present buildings and could not heal
- PE forward HQ could heal and reinforce but could not produce new units and should be build in present buildings too
- none of them has any defensive weaponry, although could be garrisoned
- player could not retreat to them

My forward strongpoint was suggested as alternative to classic bunker of Wehr - it could be upgraded to Healing station or to Observation tower giving increased sight range which could be really good for defence - supposing you put 2x Pak & 1x Mortar(Light Arty) somewhere behind and one MG inside the tower. As such it could complement also when playing combination of Wehr+Ostheer because those abilities could combine creating really nasty defensive points.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Olorin on April 27, 2010, 08:28:53 PM
Oh no no no no, I think you misunderstood me.

I listed those as possible features, they weren't intended to all be included together. I simply suggested that one or several of them could be used, definitely not all of them.

My personal suggestion was just that it would be able to create certain units, serve as a reinforce point, and serve as a retreat point. If that suggestion was taken, then also having it have a mortar pit/flakvierling would be overkill.

but just having it as a unit creation, reinforce, and retreat point I think would be unique among the factions, and certainly no more overpowering than the British mobile HQ's, and of course it has the disadvantage of not being able to move. It would also be balanced out by having the faction not have any other field barracks/forward reinforce point options.

Then of course there is the problem of defensive buildings. I think a mortar bunker would be a cool option that could be limited to a defensive oriented doctrine and be balanced by a fuel cost or pop cap cost similar to the British mortar pit. Of course the advantage over the British mortar pit is that this one is concrete.

However, since that would be a unique doctrinal building, that leaves a vacancy for a defensive building that all the doctrines can use. The standard bunker as used by the Wehrmacht would seem rather cliche, but an interesting alternative would be some kind of buildable garrisonable structure, but how this would be differentiated from the Wehrmacht bunker and British/Soviet slit trenches,  I do not know.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: cephalos on April 28, 2010, 09:36:47 AM
However, since that would be a unique doctrinal building, that leaves a vacancy for a defensive building that all the doctrines can use. The standard bunker as used by the Wehrmacht would seem rather cliche, but an interesting alternative would be some kind of buildable garrisonable structure, but how this would be differentiated from the Wehrmacht bunker and British/Soviet slit trenches,  I do not know.
Well, so maybe Ostheer Infantry should have something like "firepoint" - I would look like brits Mg bunker without bunker. It could hide only one infantry unit up to 6 men, they would shoot from it and have quite good protection. However it shouldn't be like brits trench, because trech is hard to destroy using arty.
And yes, it should be doctrinal building, maybe for 100 Mp.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: sovietwarmachine on April 29, 2010, 09:45:23 PM
i still think that the fule loss theroy while historicly acurate it is not good for ballance espesaily vs the russain tank swarm or atr swarms but other wise great docterine
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: wordsmith on April 30, 2010, 08:53:03 AM
i still think that the fuel loss theory while historically accurate it is not good for ballance especially vs the russian tank swarm or atr swarms but otherwise great doctrine

Yes I agree - see my post here up on this page...it just don't fit to majority players play style. I think my concept needs rework again, perhaps combining it with my idea of campaign tech system, but no time for now.
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Ltevanlee on May 08, 2010, 06:45:26 PM
Good for the most part needs light vehicles. I don't like the fuel decrees in latter game it could cause problems against the Russian tank hordes, add different assault infantry ( Stormtroopers sound too much like the Wehrmacht,  Waffen SS Assault Troops?). 
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: hengyuda on March 18, 2011, 12:07:37 AM
I like the doctrines in this concept. They are sure 'doctrinal'. Is there somewhere posted how the Ostheer doctrines will look like?
Title: Re: 2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith
Post by: Ghost on March 18, 2011, 11:02:41 PM
I like the doctrines in this concept. They are sure 'doctrinal'. Is there somewhere posted how the Ostheer doctrines will look like?
not until now. but on 15. april something will be posted  ;)