Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Suggestions => Ostheer Suggestions => Topic started by: StormsDivision on April 05, 2010, 01:24:27 AM
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Hey guys, love the mod and i'd love to contribute to it by making some suggestions, i've been playing CoH for 3 years so i'm confident of myself that i know what is balanced or not.
--1. Buildings and Units--
Ostfront Headquaters - The ostfront headquaters is the first building avaible to the Ostheer, it produces vital building units for the Ostheer --->
Produces:
1. Ostheer Pioneers --->
Good vs: Infantry
Cost: 170 manpower, 3 pop cap
Reinforce cost: 18 manpower
Upgrades: Advanced repair (50 munition), Minesweeper (30 munition)
Build time: 17 seconds
Health per man: 58
Speed: 2
Weapon: 2x mp40, 1x Kar98
Size: 3 men
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Ostheer Infantry bunker - The ostheer infantry bunker produces the backbone units of the ostheer for early-mid game. Cost: 250 manpower + 10 fuel --->
Produces:
1.) Grenadier Truppen --->
Description: Grenadier Truppen are German soldiers trained to fight on the frontline
Good vs: Infantry
Cost: 290 manpower, 5 pop
Reinforce cost: 32 manpower
Upgrades: 3x G41 (45 Munition, requires 'Sturm Bunker')
Build time: 25 seconds
Health per man: 64
Speed: 2.5
Weapon: 4x Kar98, 1x Mp40
Squad size: 5 men
2.) MG34 Machine gun --->
Good vs: Infantry
Cost: 280 manpower, 3 pop
Reinforce cost: 34 manpower
Upgrades: N/A
Build time: 30 seconds
Health per man: 53
Speed: 2.5
Weapon: 1x Tripod MG34, 2x MP40
Squad size: 3 men
3.) Scharfschütze (sniper) --->
Good vs: Infantry
Cost: 360 manpower
Reinforce cost: N/A
Upgrades: 6x Zeiss telescopic sight
Build time: 40 seconds
Health per man: 50
Speed: 3
Weapon: Kar98k w/ 4x Zeiss Telescopic sight
Squad size: 1 man
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Sturm Bunker - The Sturm Bunker is able to produce some of the most versatile units availbe to the Ostheer, it also enables Grenadier Truppen to be upgraded with G41's. Requires: Ostheer Infantry bunker Cost: 360 manpower + 25 fuel --->
1.) Sturmtruppen --->
Good vs: Infantry, Light vehicles
Cost: 330 manpower, 4 pop cap
Reinforce cost: 35 manpower
Upgrades: 1x Panzerschreck (60 munitions), 2x StG44 (60 munitions)
Build time: 35 seconds
Health per man: 60
Speed: 3
Weapon: 1x Stg44 3x Kar98
Squad size: 4 men
2.) 8cm Mortar team --->
Good vs: Infantry, Light vehicles
Cost: 280 manpower, 3 pop cap
Reinforce cost: 34 manpower
Upgrades: N/A
Build time: 30 seconds
Health per man: 54
Speed: 2
Weapon: 1x 8cm mortar (operated by 2 men), 1x mp40
Squad size: 3 men
3.) Panzerjäger Squad --->
Good vs: Light vehicles, tanks
Cost: 310 manpower, 4 pop cap
Reinforce cost: 36 manpower
Upgrades: 1x Panzerschreck (60 munition)
Build time: 32 seconds
Health per man: 70
Speed: 2.5
Weapon: 1x Panzerschreck, 3x Kar98
Squad size: 4 men
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Ostheer panzer support bunker - This building produces units to support your main forces, it also provides a variety of light vehicles effective vs enemy light armour. Requires: Sturm Bunker Cost: 420 manpower + 40 fuel
1.) Panzer Grenadiers
Good vs: Infantry
Cost: 350 manpower, 4 pop cap
Reinforce cost: 34 manpower
Upgrades: 2x StG44 (50 munition), 2x Kar98 Rifle grenades [Schießbecher] (50 munition) [Panzer grens do not have the throw grenade ability]
Build time: 36 seconds
Health per man: 90
Speed: 3
Weapon: 4x G43
Squad size: 4 men
2.) PaK 40 75mm Anti-Tank gun
Good vs: Light vehicles, Tanks
Cost: 350 manpower, 4 pop
Reinforce cost: 40 manpower
Upgrades: N/A
Build time: 40 seconds
Health per man: 55
Speed: 2
Weapon: 1x PaK 40 (operated by 2 men), 2x mp40
Squad size: 4 men
3.) StuG III
Good vs: Infantry, Tanks
Cost: 400 manpower, 55 fuel, 5 pop
Upgrades: 7.5cm StuK 40 (long barreled high-velocity AP 75mm)
Build time: 50 seconds
Health: 450
Speed: 5
Weapon: 7.5cm StuK 37 (short barreled low-velocity HE 75mm)
4.) Panzer III
Good vs: Light vehicles
Cost: 350 Manpower, 50 fuel, 5 pop
Upgrades: Armored skirts (50 munition)
Build time: 47 seconds
Health: 400
Speed: 5.5
Weapon: 50mm KwK 39
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Ostheer Panzer bunker - Deploys the Ostheer medium tanks, the backbone of the German panzer divisions.
Requires: Ostheer Panzer Support bunker Cost: 400 manpower + 70 fuel
1.) Panzer IV --->
Good vs: Infantry, Tanks
Cost: 470 manpower, 80 fuel, 8 pop cap
Upgrades: Armour skirts (50 munition)
Build time: 57 seconds
Health: 600
Speed: 5
Weapon: 7.5cm KwK 40
2.) Panzer V Panther --->
Good vs: Tanks, Heavy tanks
Cost: 570 manpower, 100 fuel, 10 pop cap
Upgrades: Armored skirts (50 munition)
Build time: 70 seconds
Health: 800
Speed: 6
Weapon: 7.5cm KwK 42
3.) Hetzer
Good vs: Tanks, Light vehicles
Cost: 430 manpower, 60 fuel, 6 pop cap
Upgrades: APCR Rounds (60 munition)
Build time: 53 seconds
Health: 550
Speed: 5
Weapon: 7.5cm PaK 39
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2. --Doctrines--
1.) Blitzkrieg
Left side: Panzer support
1.) Elite tank crews
Description: All tanks get battle-hardened crews and perform better in combat
Abilities: 20% Increased sight, 10% Faster firing, 30% Less chance of critical hit to tank (engine damaged, main gun destroyed etc), 5% speed increase
Command points required: 2
Ability cost: No cost
Recharge time: None
2.) Blitzkrieg assault
Description: While this ability is active, all tanks get a increase in speed, sight range and decreased reload times
Abilities: +30% Speed, +20% Sight range, -10% Reload speed
Command points required: 2
Ability cost: 100 munitions
Recharge time: 60 seconds
Active for: 25 seconds
3.) King Tiger
Description: Call in the pinnacle of German tank designs, the King Tiger is a very powerful tank to have on the battlefield, but can only be called in once, such a decisive weapon should not be squandered
Abilities: Tank Shock (Free, 60 second recharge)
Command points required: 5
Ability cost: 1400 manpower
Recharge time: N/A
Excellent vs: Tanks, Heavy tanks
Health: 2000
Speed: 3
Weapon: 8.8mm KwK 43
Right side: Infantry support
1.) Grenade Assault
The same as the Blitz Grenadier Assault
2.) Elite Panzer Grenadier truppen
Description: Call in 2 Veteran Panzer Grenadier squads with a Sdkfz.251 w/ MG42 capable to reinforce all nearby infantry squads
Abilities: N/A
Command points required: 2
Ability cost: 450 manpower
Recharge time: 50 seconds
3.) Veteran Seargent
Description: All squad leaders recieve extra training and become more effective in combat
Abilities: 20% Increased sight range, 15% Increased rate of fire, 5% increased speed, 5% increased accuracy for squad.
Command points required: 4
Ability cost: N/A
Recharge time: N/A
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2.) Luftwaffe
Left side: Air Support
1.) Recon plane
Description: A recon plane will fly over the map providing sight for enemy units and buildings
Abilities: N/A
Command points required: 1
Ability cost: 40 munitions
Recharge time: 50 seconds
2.) Air re-supply
Description: German air supply planes will drop 2 supply crates with heavy weapons in for infantry
Abilities: Drops 2 supply crates with 2 Panzerschrecks and 2 MG42 LMG's, crates also contain 50 fuel and 100 munitions
Command points required: 2
Ability cost: 250 manpower
Recharge time: 300 seconds
3.) Luftwaffe bombing
Description: Dozens of bombers will drop their payload of heavy bombs of devastating large swaths of land
Abilities: Drops a lot of bombs in the selected area (similar to the American bomber, slightly less powerful)
Command points required: 4
Ability cost: 200 munitions
Recharge time: 200 seconds
Active for: 45 seconds
Right side: Anti-Air support
1.) Base and Vehicle anti-air
Description: All base structures get upgraded with 20mm Flakvierlings capable of targeting planes but not ground targets. All tanks (except StuG III) get equipped with a MG42 HMG's with AP rounds capable of dealing damage to aircraft.
Abilities: Anti-air provided to base buildings and tanks
Command points required: 1
Ability cost: N/A
Recharge time: N/A
2.) Flakvierling 20mm
Description: Enables Pioneers to construct 20mm Flakvierlings (ineffective vs Infantry)
Abilities: Effective stationary AA
Command points required: 2
Ability cost: Flakvierling 20mm costs 300mp, 20 fuel, 4 pop cap
Recharge time: N/A
3.) Wirbelwind
Description: Call in a mobile Anti-Air vehicle that is very effective vs infantry and planes
Abilities: Good vs Infantry, excellent vs aircraft, can lock down that does not allow it to target infantry but targets planes much better.
Command points required: 3
Ability cost: 600 manpower
Recharge time: 60 seconds
Health: 450
Speed: 5.5
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3.) Artillery warfare
Left side: Battlefield Observation
1.) Increased sight range
Has same effect as Wehrmacht increased line of sight, all points get increased sight range Costs 1 cp
2.) Binoculars
Description: All infantry units are equipped with binoculars to improve sight range
Abilities: +20% sight range for infantry squads (except sniper and pak40)
Command points required: 2
Ability cost: N/A
Recharge time: N/A
3.) Drop flares
Description: Drops red flares onto the target area to reveal part of the map
Abilities: Reveals part of the map temporarily, cannot be dropped on enemy base territory
Command points required: 3
Ability cost: 50 munitions
Recharge time: 60 seconds
Active for: 10 seconds
Right side: Artillery support
1.) Heavy artillery strike
Description: The selected area will be bombarded 6 150mm rounds
Abilities: Similar to a Hummel barrage, except 6 rounds are fired instead of 4, red smoke is also shown
Command points required: 3
Ability cost: 175 munitions
Recharge time: 60 seconds
2.) Panzerwerfer Self Propelled Artillery --->
Description: Call in a halftrack with a 15cm rocket launcher, similar to the katyusha (max of 3 on battlefield)
Abilities: Barrage with a salvo of missiles
Command points required: 3
Ability cost: 500 manpower
Recharge time: 60 seconds
3.) Krupp K5 railroad gun barrage
Description: Devastate the selected area with 8 rounds of 283mm HE shells
Abilities: This ability will bombard a large area with 8 shells in a minute, the explosions are very big but it is inaccurate and expensive
Command points required: 4
Ability cost: 225 munitions
Recharge time: 300 seconds
Active for: 60 seconds
3. --Abilities--
1.) Infantry abilities
Repair - Availible to: Ostheer Pioneers, Panzer grenadiers
Advanced Repair - Available to: Upgraded Ostheer pioneers.
Faster repair of structures and units.
Sprint - Available to: Panzerjäger Squad, Panzer Grenadiers, Schwerer Panzerjäger squad
Fire Panzerfaust - Available to upgraded Schwerer Panzerjäger squads
Throw anti tank grenade - Available to upgraded Sturm Panzerjäger squads
Storm - Available to Sturmtruppen.
Reduces suppression, increases rate of fire, lasts for 10 seconds, 40 second recharge, exhaustion for 7 seconds after use
Grenade assault- Available to Sturmtruppen. each member of the squad will throw 3 grenades at a long range at the given area, any infantry caught in the blast will be stunned, grenades have a 1.5 second timer.
Camoflauge - Available to Sniper.
Build sandbags, barbed wire, dragonsteeth tank traps, mines (25 muni each) - Available to Ostheer Pioneers
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4. --Veterancy--
Veterancy will be achieved through combat, but it will also be achieved by standing next to nearby units in combat, similar to the Panzer Elite, killing certain units such as command squads, t34's, IS2's and SU85/100's will give you a large boost in veterancy.
--Infantry: Grenadier Truppen, Sturmtruppen, Panzer Grenadiers
Level1 Vet: 5% Increased accuracy, -5% Recieved damage.
Level2 vet: 10% Increased accuracy, -5% recieved damage, -10% recieved supression accuracy, -10% recieved damage, -10% recieved supression, -10% reload/cooldown time.
Level3 vet: 10% Increased accuracy, -10% recieved damage, -15% recieved supression, -15% recieved damage.
--Support units: Ostheer Pioneers, MG34, 8m Mortar, Panzerjager Squad, Sturm Panzerjager squad, PaK40 Anti-tank gun,
Level1 Vet: 10% Increased rate of fire
Level2 Vet: 10% Increased rate of fire, 15% Decreased cooldown/reload speed
Level3 Vet: 10% Increased rate of fire, 15% Decreased cooldown/reload speed, 5% Increased movement speed
Tanks and Vehicles: StuG III, Panzer III, Panzer IV, Panzer V Panther, Tiger I, Nashorn, Wirbelwind, Panzerwerfer, Hetzer, Halftrack (Blitzkrieg).
Level1 Vet: 10% Increased movement speed, -5 seconds recharge time (panzerwerfer)
Level2 Vet: 15% Increased movement speed, -10 seconds recharge time (panzerwerfer), 10% increased accuracy
Level3 Vet: 15% Increased movement speed, -15 seconds recharge time (panzerwerfer), 15% increased accuracy, 15% reduced cooldown/reload speed
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Conclusion: So guys that is my ostheer suggestions, I know there will be flaws and issues you guys can spot, and by all means point them out and I will make the appropiate changes ;D
Post Merge: April 04, 2010, 01:41:31 AM
NOTE: All these ideas are based on gameplay over realism, I tried to keep the units and abilites with some degree of realism and balance, but please if you see any problems or errors in my work then say so, post extra suggestions and also comment if you like/dislike my ideas and why, Thanks!!! ;D ;D ;D
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This is the wet dream of each axis player ::)
Infantry units over infantry units.
Tanks, tanks, tanks!
No anti air.
Overpowered units!
Just some notes;
U have the Panzer III, IV, V and Tiger!
All german tanks to build...cant see any sense behind it.
U have StuG III, Hetzer and Nashorn!
3 good tank hunters...cant see any sense behind it.
U have Grenadiers, Sturmgrenadiers, Panzerjägersquad, Panzergrenadiere and Sturmpanzerjäger...and for most of this units i cant see a clear combat role.
and the Sturmpanzerjäger are op like anything else xD
And at the doctrines i cant find something new and unique
( a point u confess by your self with a ability description like: 1.) Grenade Assault -The same as the Blitz Grenadier Assault ).
So; hard words but i cant see a clear concept - looks for me just like a "i want everything in i could find ingame".
I repeat myself again and again!
Watch the old nations!
There are just some units for one specialized combat mission! There are long range infantry, short range infantry, assault infantry, specialized infantry, main battle tank, tank hunter, support tank, and so on.
Watch the structure and think about the unit and their functions.
Hey guys, love the mod and i'd love to contribute to it by making some suggestions, i've been playing CoH for 3 years so i'm confident of myself that i know what is balanced or not.
-> sorry man but i think your concept need a lot of rework.
Lord Rommel
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I completly agree with what Lord Rommel said and would also like to mention that there is nothing unique about your faction. Its very obviously a Wehr reskin with a few new units. The Veterancy is dull cause it is used by the PE (you pointed this out yourself). This faction has to be special, unique, and differently structured then the Wehr or PE. Try to think of new abilities where ever you can.
As things stand you played more on realism then on game-play cause this is very unbalanced and very powerful.
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Well if you think about it, the more powerful tanks such as the Tiger I, Nashorn and such would come in pretty late, and their huge costs would drain the Ostheer of their resources, the Nashorn would simply be a more powerful version of the marder, that is the best why i can describe it, i've used alot of things compared to the normal CoH because if I just said
"Grenade assault, throws a load of grenades for so many seconds, stunns and kills all russian infantry bobs there"
It would sound very overpowered given the low munition cost of 50 and early unlock, I did imagine them to create the Ostheer tiger using the old model and new stats, i'd like it to be less useful vs infantry, but I understand your point right there, so I took the final building and it's units out, I did think about it, i was unsure wether to delete it or not, so i just posted it at the time.
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Ostheer Grenadiers are simply like a slightly more powerful version of volks, again I use CoH units to describe the power because if you look at 'Ostheer Grenadiers' '5 men' 'Trained' you're obviously going to think that they are just gonna own countless squads of your early conscripts until you get the stelky squads
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As for the other infantry squads for example Panzer Grenadiers, they are more specialized infantry units, but what they are for lies in the name: Panzer Grenadiers, they support tanks, I was debating to put them in or not but then I thought that the Ostheer tanks needed at least some small support to counter the hordes of infantry.
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As a response to your opinions that 'This is a reskin of the Wehrmacht' and 'It should be differentley structured' my reply is that we're talking about a German army here, must it be so ridiculously different that we can't notice it from the other 2 German armies in the game? The German armies in CoH have always been: Start off with the HQ, your units have more uniqueness to them.
I do not think the russians are as unique, strelkys is just an 8 man rifleman squad, guards are an 8 man ranger squad with no supression. They have near enough the same unit types as I've pointed out in the Ostheer (Mortars, variety of infantry squads, many tanks + tank destroyers) and yes, ok, some of my units MIGHT be a bit overpowered, but why are we rushing so conclusions of balance without taking a proper think here? Ostheer Grenaiders are few in numbers compared to russians, they have 4 rifles and 1 SMG, conscripts have 4 rifles, cost less, take less time to produce and have 8 men for the Grenadiers to target!
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Another thing I spotted in your post Rommel is 'Watch the old nations'... Then I get posts that say they agree with you and that 'It is a wehr reskin'... You can see where I'm going with this so I'm not going to explain too much there...
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The reason the buildings deployment is so simple is because when I first started playing axis on CoH, i lost countless games simply because I didn't know how to advance to the next tier, the russian building system is even more simple since you can just build any building (given you have the resources) whenever you like.
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Anyways thanks I guess for pointing out the flaws, I've no problem with seeing my own errors, but can you at least point out ways that I can improve them instead of just saying how overpowered they are?
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Well. For me a coh faction had units for follwing
missions:
Infantry for long range combat:
WEHR: Volks PE: Grenadiers US: Rifles UK: Tommys SOV: Conscripts
Infantry:
Infantry for short range combat:
WEHR: Panzergrenadiere PE: Grenadiers G43 US: - UK: - SOV: Strelky
Infantry for assault combat:
WEHR: PzGrens MG 42 PE: Grens StG 44 US: Rifles BAR UK: Tommys Bren SOV: Gardes
Specialized Infantry:
WEHR: Knight Cross Holder, Sniper PE: - US: Sniper UK: Tommys with Rifle grenades SOV: Commander, Sniper
Anti tank infantry:
WEHR: PzGrens Schreck PE: Grens Schreck US: - UK: Engineers PIAT SOV: Tankhunter PTRD
"indirect fighting infantry":
WEHR: 8cm Mortar PE: SdKzf 250 with Mortar US: 81mm Mortar UK: Mortar Pit SOV: Mortar
Vehicles/guns:
anti tank:
WEHR: 5cm PAK PE: SdKfz. 250 3,7cm PAK, Marder US: 57mm PAK UK: 17pdr SOV: ZiS-2
anti air:
WEHR: Ostwind PE: - US: Half track .50 quad UK: Bofors SOV: T-90
Mainbattletank:
WEHR: Panzer IV PE: - US: Sherman UK: Cromwell SOV: T-34
Special tank:
WEHR: Panther, StuG PE: Bergetiger US: M10 Wolverine UK: Firefly SOV: SU-85, JS-2
Anti inf tank:
WEHR: Pz IV Ausf. G/J PE: Pz IV Ausf. F1 US: - UK: Stuart SOV: -
Recon:
WEHR: Krad ( Motorcycle ), PUMA PE: Krad, SdKfz. 222 US: Jeep, Grayhound UK: - SOV: T-70
This are all important combat missions i could found in coh which where ( for the most times ) represent by one unit ( or 2 when one of them isnt a combat unit ).
And with the german army:
Well. CoH had already two german army but they dont represent the historical german army and so i see no reason why Ostheer should like a pimped up Wehrmacht/PE and at the end i thin gamers will see a unique faction because of there are already this two german armys.
That the russians where orientated by the US/UK is in my viw no problem because the red army is totally new with all its weapons and vehicles. But a new Ostheer will need some old units of the Wehrmacht and PE and so because of this Ostheer need to be unique in more points.
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I see your point, but do you not realise that it's going to be really hard to make Ostheer unique considering we're thinking of the axis as Germans here? If you want the Ostheer to be as unique as the russians then you're really going to have to forget the laws of reality, you can't make a German army unique from 2 other German armies in the same game, it's simply impossible.
Post Merge: April 05, 2010, 02:00:45 PM
To cut a long story short, you can't make too many unique units for the Ostheer because those units are in the normal 2 armies (Wehrmacht + Panzer Elite) In some form or manner! Simply because Ostheer is a German army, so is Wehrmacht and so is Panzer Elite
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Hm; i think u hadnt read some of the popular concept ideas here at the forum ;) There are a lot unique ideas starts up with new base buildup or new techsystem, new vetsystems, new units and so on.
And i cant understand your point of "german army had to be the same for all time" -> jeah, we had already two german armys at CoH but so it is time to think about new ways for a new german army.
I said already that Ostheer will need some already know or given units and abilities but a faction is much more then tanks, guns and soldiers ;)
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And I'm just going to take your unit explaination and use it for my ostheer suggestions.
Infantry for long range combat:
Grenadier Truppen
Infantry for short range combat:
Grenadier Truppen, Sturmtruppen
Infantry for assault combat:
Sturmtruppen
Specialized Infantry:
Panzer Grenadiers, Sniper
Anti tank infantry:
Panzerjager squad
"indirect fighting infantry":
8cm Mortar
Vehicles/guns:
anti tank:
7.5cm PaK40
anti air:
Wirbelwind
Mainbattletank:
Panzer IV, Panzer V Panther
Anti inf tank:
Wirbelwind, StuG III
Recon:
Panzer III, StuG III
Post Merge: April 05, 2010, 02:08:30 PM
Yes they are unique, 2 different factions in CoH, Wehrmacht and Panzer elite but think about it, they use the same weapons and tanks, what I'm trying to say here is that people think the russians are sooooo unique because well, they're Soviets instead of Allies! You're using Soviet tanks instead of Allied tanks, Soviet weapons instead of Allied weapons. But with the Ostheer you can't expect too much unit and weapon difference because the arsenal of German weapons and tanks has been spread between 2 Armies already, so theres not much to pick out that is in good terms of balance and realism!
Post Merge: April 05, 2010, 02:09:44 PM
If it is the Doctrines and Veterancy that you think aren't unique, then fair enough I'll change them and try my best to make them more creative, but if it's the UNITS that aren't unique, there isn't much that I can do about that.
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Well. I think there is enough space for new units ;)
e.g. why a Wirbelwind anti air tank?
Why not a Flankpanzer I, Möbelwagen or Pz 38 t Gepard?
Why no half track like SdKfz. 10/4 or SdKfz. 7/1, SdKft. 7/2?
Or with the tanks: You have Pz III, Pz IV and Panther?
Why is Pz III a recon? For me Pz III is a medium mainbattletank and no recon.
Why a Pz IV again when Pz III could be the medium tank?
What is about recon tanks like the Pz II Ausf. L "Luchs" or SdKfz. 234/3 or SdKfz. 234/4?
So in my eyes there are a lot of new vehicles and weapons for the Ostheer ;)
So u could make a unique Ostheer with new weapons, abilities, buildup and so on.
That is the challenge for the new Ostheer!
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Why not a flakpanzer/mobelwagen? Because for 3 command points you'd expect something that can fend off at least enemy infantry, especially considering it's the last unlock for the Anti Air side of the doctrine.
Having a Pz III for a MBT (Main battle tank) is like having the British stuart as the MBT, it's only good vs infantry + light tanks.
Why a Panzer IV? Because it was the 2nd most numerous armored fighting vehicle Germany produced!!! Not having a Panzer IV in the Ostheer is like not having the Kar98 for Infantry!!!
As for the Luchs, ok yes I agree, some lighter tanks may be needed, I'll make the appropriate changes when I have more time on my hands.
Yes there may be alot of new vehicles, but not many of them may have a real purpose on the battlefield, I don't see the point in giving the Ostheer sdkfz 7/1 or 7/2 because #1 they have no weapons and #2 No one really want to waste 200 manpower and some small fuel to make a troop transport when you can just garrison a building and upgrade it to a forward barracks for a little extra manpower, and just produce lots of units from there!
#3 No one really uses the SDKFZ from the original Wehrmacht for troop transport, the only reason it's used is to upgrade it to a stuka or flamethrowers.
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Panzer III = Stuart oO
Well...i think Pz III is much better!
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panzer III had superior armor and gun:
M3 Stuart
37mm gun, 13-51mm armor
Panzer III
50mm gun, 30-77mm armor
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We're fighting soviets here, the only things they'll be able to take on is the t-70, t-90, zis healing truck and katyusha in head on assault.
Stuart can take on Scout cars, Halftracks, Pumas and the Hotchkiss, not similar soviet vehicles, but all light armor.
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Well. For me the Panzer III ( up from Ausf. F with 5cm KwK L/42 ) is a good medium tank which is able to destroy a
T-34/76 and so i dont need the Pz IV again.
Panther or Tiger is an other point because both are typical symbols for the war at the eastern front. Both tanks were designed and build for the war against the red armor and so i think here it is much harder to not putting them into the Ostheer.
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I just happen to be an expert in armoured warfare of WWII, and I know straight away that the Panzer III's 50mm KwK 38 and the upgraded KwK 39 could not penetrate the T34's 50mm Sloped frontal armour, which is why they introduced the more powerful 75mm KwK 40 onto the Panzer IV, a tank originally designed to handle soft targets such as infantry, light vehicles, machine gun nests etc, a role which the Panzer III was not suited for.
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Well. 5cm KwK L/42 could penetrate front armor under a range of 200m-500m - and when u now want to say that is very close then i have to say; right but the range at CoH isnt much higher, or ;)
And more point for the Pz III: it was easier for german tanks to outmaneuver T-34 because the view out of T-34 was catastrophic.
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Sorry, but you are wrong, the Panzer III with the 50mm KwK L/42 could not destroy the T34 Frontally at any range unless using APCR ammo, which was in very short supply for all Panzer III's.
Details:
Penetration Data for the 50mm KwK 38 L/42
100m / 53mm --
500m / 43mm --
1000m / 32mm --
Panzer III Armor
Hull front / 50mm at 90°
Hull sides / 30mm at 90°
Hull read / 50mm at 80°
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T34 Armor
Hull front / 45mm at 30°
Hull sides / 45mm at 50°
Hull rear / 45mm at 45°
Post Merge: April 05, 2010, 09:15:30 PM
I've done the math too, 45mm at 30° is roughly around 80-100mm, the maximum penetration of the Panzer III is around 50-65mm at 100m or less
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100mm oO I want to see the mathatical formula !
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100mm oO I want to see the mathatical formula !
sin30 = 1/2
Armor = 45mm
45mm/sin30 = 45/(1/2) = 90mm.
Simple as that.
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Hm. Okay. So my sources/books are write lies ???
There are reports form Pz III Crewmen who destroyed T-34 by frontal hits ( perhaps the tank driver door is not so much armored? ).
All in all the Pz III debate is just ONE of the points i dont like ^^
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Hm. Okay. So my sources/books are write lies ???
There are reports form Pz III Crewmen who destroyed T-34 by frontal hits ( perhaps the tank driver door is not so much armored? ).
I read about those cases too mate ;), so I don't think they just made it up. You propably meant PzIIIJ late version which used better Kwk39 L60 50mm gun with improved penetration able to penetrate 100mm at 0m even without PzGr40 APCR ammo.
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Thats the problem of this story; the texts were from 1941-1942 and there is no information that this tanks
had used the L/60 - perhaps they had used Wolfram-
Grenades or hollow charged grenades.
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by the way, coh isn't historically accurate - for balancing reasons :P
That's what i found:
Durchschlag 100 m auf 30°
Pzgr: 67 mm
Pzgr40: 130 mm
Durchschlag 500 m auf 30°
Pzgr: 57 mm
Pzgr40: 72 mm
the pz III could be something between the stuart/hotchkiss and the panzer IV. it could be used as a light/medium tank vs. infantry and light armor. if it gets an APCR ability it could also be used vs. t-34. but it should not be the main tank of the ostheer.
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Think these are the tarrif.net datas?
Well. I think Pz III would be a good main battle tank ;D
Perhaps with different upgrades the gamer can make
this tank much better.
But like i have said - the PzIII is just ONE point.
One tank is not the hole faction and so we need
much more xD
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Hm. Okay. So my sources/books are write lies ???
There are reports form Pz III Crewmen who destroyed T-34 by frontal hits ( perhaps the tank driver door is not so much armored? ).
All in all the Pz III debate is just ONE of the points i dont like ^^
Hatches and vision slicks are weak points of armor.
But a quick research (not only wikipedia) showed me that L/42 gun couldnt penetrate T-34 frontal armor unless unsig APCR. L/60 gun could. Both guns were mounted on a PzIIIj tank.
All devs have to do is to give a PzIII L/60 gun and ACPR ability and it will be an usefull medium tank.
A bulletproof axis tank cant apear before US 57mm (It should be available at the same time as StugIV/PE PzIV) so there is no point in giving to Ostheer PzIII a weaker gun than a L/60.
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I just happen to be an expert in armoured warfare of WWII, and I know straight away that the Panzer III's 50mm KwK 38 and the upgraded KwK 39 could not penetrate the T34's 50mm Sloped frontal armour, which is why they introduced the more powerful 75mm KwK 40 onto the Panzer IV, a tank originally designed to handle soft targets such as infantry, light vehicles, machine gun nests etc, a role which the Panzer III was not suited for.
It could if it used APCR up close (500m or less)
but thats not the point. COH is not realistic. 57mm AT gun killing king tiger from front...i mean its balance. not realism.
if you want realism men of war is for you.
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But allowing the Panzer III to use APCR rounds would make the Panzer IV not worth building, and to be honest, CoH still needs some degree of realism with units, and having an army of Panzer III's in the battlefield instead of Panzer IV's seems a little silly to me.
But the message is settled, the Panzer III can NOT penetrate the frontal armour of a T34 (unless using APCR, but that would never happen IRL)
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It looks likt that L/42 cant penetrate T-34s frontarmor.
L/60 is able to do this with normal Panzergranate 40.
But when i talk about tribute for realisem u will need the
Panzer III because till 1943 it was the mainbattletank of
german Panzerdivisions at the east.
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I'm not saying don't have it in the Ostheer, I'm just saying that an Ostheer player can't expect it to be his main battle tank in mid-late game when t34's and IS2's start coming onto the field.
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Wait a moment - COH takes place in 1944, and PzIII was MBT until 1943... so when EF takes place? I can see Moscow, Kursk maps- I'm lost ???
However I would like to see PzIII (just curious), the problem lies in having both of them, so do with them like you did with T-34 - just give upgrade to PzIV.
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But allowing the Panzer III to use APCR rounds would make the Panzer IV not worth building, and to be honest, CoH still needs some degree of realism with units, and having an army of Panzer III's in the battlefield instead of Panzer IV's seems a little silly to me.
But the message is settled, the Panzer III can NOT penetrate the frontal armour of a T34 (unless using APCR, but that would never happen IRL)
Who sais Ostheer will have a PzIV?
Becouse ACPR will be an ability that costs ammo PzIII will be inferior to PzIV.
Sure you can build an army of PzIII. You can build an army of Ostwinds too and it will gork well vs anything thats US, not from TierIV. But in the late game PzIII should be supporting unit to Stugs, Marders or JagdpanzerIVs. Becouse it was a little faster than PzIV it will be usefull at flanking. (like a short barreled sherman)
One more thing about AP shells. I know that they were rare in Germany but US produced only solid AP shells for their 57mm. All other types of ammo were made in UK and APCR or APDS rounds were never developed.
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Panzer III with a Upgrade for become PZ IV oO No way xD
Well. And with the "time" of the EF mod; the red army should represent the years 1941 till 1945 ( see e.g. Conscripts ).
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panzer III and panzer IV were used at the same time, so replacing one with the other via an upgrade is pointless
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Uh, Storms do you mean the L/42 with APCR or the L/60 with APCR?
rommel said the l60 could do it with normal rounds, but i only think it could do that at point blank..
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The Panzer III would definately need to be a tank that you can get quickly and make a lot of, but really isnt that good versus medium tanks. It should be able to hold its own against tanks, but it certainly cant take on a T-34 one on one.