Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Cranialwizard on April 08, 2010, 01:20:04 AM
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I am finding that in the long run, Red Banner Strelky are stronger(And much cheaper) than even a Shock Guard.
While Guards are unsuppressed, and carry a whole assortment of grenades, I find the weaponry types if the Strelky superior to the Guards.
RBS:
The PPSH-41. 7/8 of them.
Compared to:
Shock Guards
One PPSH-41. 1/7 SVT-40, 6/7
In another instance:
The DP-27 of the alternate upgrade takes care of most of the "No Bunkers" issue of the Soviets.
But the Guards can't carry weaponry of such.
It also seems that most of the time, if I apply Light/Heavy Cover to my Strelky AND my Guards, my Guards are the first to die. Is this a balance concern?
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I feel that the red banner strelky are way better suited for fighting against infantry, but the guards have more versatility.
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its sort of the same with grenadiers vs. Knights cross
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Similar.
In late game, If an annihilation match, I would normally just knock out the bunker and send RBS in. With them, for demolition, usually 2 Ingenery or 1 Partisans go with them.
For tank support, a T-34 usually follows them in.
For Infantry? The RBS can take care of that.
But 2 squads of Grenadiers or Knights Cross, 1 MG, Or even 2 flaming Pios normally take out the Guards.
But the RBS can normally concentrate 7 PPHS-41s on ONE target and take them out easier.
I'll stick with them.
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The strelky have way more firepower once you equip one squad with both the mg and the ppsh.
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Do you have the right patch? In the new patch you can no longer equip both. Only 1. SMG to all, or LMG to 2.
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Do you have the right patch? In the new patch you can no longer equip both. Only 1. SMG to all, or LMG to 2.
They are still glitched in 1.04 so you can upgrade both if done right, but I won't repeat how here.
Guards are the healthiest squad in the game, with 100 health per man and elite armour, in a 6 man squad compared to:
Rangers - Elite armour, 390 health
Knights Cross - Heroic armour, 270 health
Commandos - Soldier Armour, 390 health
Fallschirmjaeger - Soldier Armour, 240 health
Strelky (RB) - Infantry Armour, 425 health
For those unaware, elite/heroic/soldier armour essentially gives -25%damage and accuracy from most weapons against them making them much hardier than health alone would indicate.
They also come with an assortment of free, double-throw nades, are unsupressable and the shock guard upgrade adds another man with 115 health and suppressive fire. This also doesn't take into account the fact that rangers and falls need to spend munitions on their weapon upgrades. All this for 300 manpower, a cheaper sum than all of the above bar strelky. As I see it, guards are drastically overpowered late game and I can't imagine you guys don't see it too.
Edit: Just for added effect, guard squads have more health than t34s/shermans/croms/pIVs. Also, my mistake, soldier armour just gives the damage reduction and not the accuracy.
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As I see it, guards are drastically overpowered late game and I can't imagine you guys don't see it too.
Edit: Just for added effect, guard squads have more health than t34s/shermans/croms/pIVs. Also, my mistake, soldier armour just gives the damage reduction and not the accuracy.
When i read about their health i was also shocked. This does sound like "the new units will simply be better than the old ones". Sorry for saying this like that. But i mean, right used, these guys are truely shocks and gotta be considered in the next patch for sure.
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I dont really find them op at all late game, they just dont pack enough firepower to take stuff out quickly
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Yess, you can make them have both.
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I dont really find them op at all late game, they just dont pack enough firepower to take stuff out quickly
The SVT is about equivalent to a G43 at long range (slightly less accurate) and fires much much faster up close. So a squad with 6 of these and a PPSh is not good? For pure firepower, of course they aren't going to match a PPSh squad of RB strelky but saying they don't have much firepower is silly.
Plus they have both suppressive fire and double nades, both of which are free. I hope you can see the implications of that.
Something's gotta give. Obviously a munitions cost for the abilities won't fit with the dev's Russian idea and the unsuppressable quality is cool. So a cost increase or a health decrease, or both, are necessary.
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I think their are fine, stop trying to give the Dev's headaches.
Strelky is used for a main inf unit, with pashas and things.
Guards should be with the Streaky for helpful firepower,anti- tank(at grenades), since your Guards are unstoppable , if your Streaky goes right in front of a mg and you don't have 1 of the trilllion ways of making them go back up, Guards are here to help!
They can easily go behind a mg and a few seconds your troops are marching right toward Berlin!
Ever thought of putting them together?
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There have been several big changes to the infantry, but the point I'd like to make is that each unit has its own merits/uses. Its not like you start spamming KCs when they're available and forget Grens. Nobody does that!
A resilient unsuppressable unit can do wonders when you need to hold ground or cap a contested VP under fire.
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If I were to pair units together, infantry wise, I normally follow this format:
8 Conscripts (NKVD off most of the time)
4 Red Banner Strelky
2 Guards
1 Command.
I know this looks a bit foolish but it's really effective late game.
It's also militaristically (If that's a word) perfected XD
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Grenades arnt hard to dodge at all
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well if you can micro every unit at each second, great ! but twice grenade on a PG's course may help avoiding your t-34 a pshreak hit
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Grenades arnt hard to dodge at all
No of course not, unless you just happen to be under suppressive fire and slowed... oh wait....
There have been several big changes to the infantry, but the point I'd like to make is that each unit has its own merits/uses. Its not like you start spamming KCs when they're available and forget Grens. Nobody does that!
A resilient unsuppressable unit can do wonders when you need to hold ground or cap a contested VP under fire.
While I'm intrigued by the changes you mention, I also find it an unfair comparison to KCH. First of all, alot of people do forget about grens once they get panzer command and it's not always the bad players.
Guards can't be compared to KCH because there will always be a need for grens to provide backup AT, which KC can do only with the inefficient faust. Guards provide AT that strelky simply cannot, making them much more multi-purpose in late game. Guards also have drastically more health than a strelky squad, whilst KCH actually have less health than a gren squad. KCH also cost alot more to buy and reinforce, in manpower and time compared to guards and their respective mainline infantry.
Also comes the fact that a unit effective at long range becomes exponentially more powerful with numbers, as opposed to short range weapons which becomes linearly more powerful. For example, the PGrens are terrible units to 1v1 riflemen because the rifles are much better up close and once they close in, decimate the PGs. However, add equivalent numbers to each side and the PGs start to win once they reach a certain point because they kill so many of the rifles as they charge, and then proceed to win in cc because of the numbers difference.
KCH are assault rifle troops compared to grens who are long range and guards are long range compared to short range SMG strelky. The fact is, that guards are cheap enough and have so many uses, that they completely phase out strelky in the late game. Guards need to play a role more similar to the KCH in creating breakthroughs rather than blobbing up as a mainline infantry.