Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => General Discussion => Topic started by: BurroDiablo on April 13, 2010, 01:38:33 PM
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This is a serious Poll, so think about it.
As you know, Eastern Front is not without its problems, we have been bombarded by complaints since the release and we have done our very best to straighten out balance and bugs the best we can.
However, some of us do not think that this is enough. We achieved a first by adding in the Soviets to the rest of the original factions, it was a massive achievement, but during this time we were also dismayed when we discovered some serious gameplay breaking issues that could not be resolved without Relics help. Relic did help us, and we thank them for that, but its not enough, and our repeated attempts to contact them again for help have been met with an unfortunate silence.
So, there has been some discussion amongst Developers to whether or not we should take Eastern Front in a new direction. This would include:
- Removing two Relic factions (likely Brits and PE).
- Replacing an Allied faction with Soviets and an Axis faction with the Ostheer, allowing the re-crewing of weapons and other things we cannot do (Automatch, victory/defeat screens, etc).
- Adding the retreat ability and veterancy to the Soviets.
There are many issues that have cropped up and need to be addressed, as you can imagine the EF Development team is deeply divided over the subject. Your Vote and input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
EF Dev Team
FAQ
- if you remove one (or all) Allies faction then you could install ONLY Russian faction and it will be able to re-crew weapons?
The above is the only way to make sure that Soviets and Ostheer factions will be able to re-crew weapons normally like WH/US. It is also the only way that we can acomodate 'Ranking online' as well as being able to automatch as you normally do. Without replacing the 2 factions all of this cannot and will not be fixed
- vet-system is now not possible to implement? (same as previous question - if you replace it then it will be possible?)
It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions"
- retreat - same question, is it not possible to programm retreat without replacing old Relic faction?
It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions".
**Update**
The Wehrmacht Terror Propaganda doctrine ability is now working properly against the Russians - forcing a retreat as with the other sides.
Relics community manager has stated that they will try to 'investigate (our problems) in the future', we have set up a prioritized list for them, so any faction removal may only be temporary if Relic kindly fix our Recrew/Automatch/Ranking issues.
PLEASE NOTE YOU MUST LOG IN TO SEE THE POLL AND VOTE
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I've read the text 3 times but still doesn't understand some details, could you please explain a little?:
- if you remove one (or all) Allies faction then you could install ONLY Russian faction and it will be able to re-crew weapons?
- vet-system is now not possible to implement? (same as previous question - if you replace it then it will be possible?)
- retreat - same question, is it not possible to programm retreat without replacing old Relic faction?
- do you need to replace all factions or just one of them?
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1. This is correct.
2. It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions"
3. Same as above
4. Just one, the OF faction it would be in the case (PE/Brit)
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What exactly you cannot do and you need vital help from relic?
As i understand recrewing heavy weapons (hmg´s and atguns) is the main problem
But whats the problem with retreat and vet system?
As i read in prevous posts, you can implant these abilitys without changing relic factions
- no retreat for soviet union:
No retreat is a new characteristic for a faction and important part of the soviet faction (historical)
As i remember in older posts the problem was with axis ability "force retreat" doesn´t work. is it still so?
Perhaps you can chance it and the infantry is instead pinned down. yeah i now it beats with soviet ability "for the motherland" but that would be a balance discussion.
- vet system as i remember (i mostly play against soviet) isn´t implentet yet. But you say you can do it
Another main problem is, that you can´t level your account when you play with soviet.
Does relic keeps silent on this too?
I think the community has adjusted to the possibility of 3 opponents each (3 allies vs. 3 axis factions), so it would be a deficit, if you can´t play with PE or brit along the other factions anymore..
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There is no problem with retreat or vet, only wether to include them or not. These are elements we chose to omit from the Soviet factions but we have been criticised by many players for making this 'game breaking' decision. Lack of recrew is something that Relic could fix by modifying the DLL (we asked them about this in February), but they are yet to get back to us. The Ostheer is going to suffer from the no-recrew bug as well, only way to cure this currently is to replace 2 of the Relic factions.
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The best thing about EF was that it dosnt modify the existing fractions. If EF would modify the existing game, even less people would want to have it.
No recrew is not a big problem for Soviets with no mobile MGs. Ostheer should have a buildable LMG squad (without a tripod) that would work like BAR infantry.
I like the no retreat for Soviets, and no vet works well with no retreat becouse you dont have to worry about vet 3 units. You just spam, spam, spam like the Soviets did. :)
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Thanx for explanation. I think Killar have a good point that this poll is not as much about retreat and vet system but about recrewing and replacing PE/Brit. He also mention ranking system which is improtant for some players too - not for me personally but there are sure some players who need this to have fun.
This is a tough one boys, the final decision should be on dev's shoulders but as you asked about opinions here is mine:
Recrewing - is important element of the game and should be implemented at ANY costs. And I'm saying it as hardcore PE player who will miss PE very much. But if Ostheer will level the absention of PE then it will be ok. However recrewing bug could be avoided at least by creating a faction which doesn't have any weapons to recrew - like PE (they have only doctrinal Flak38&88mm which could be recrewed). This means no AT guns, mortars or MGs, no emplacements which could be recrewed like Brit's. Of course there is still possibility to recrew Wehr/US weapons which then would be missed in this case.
Retreat - is no problem as it is a part of Soviet strategy, in some cases it even improved my game because I treat units differently and I'm not under stress that I forgot to retreat - I just don't have that option so if suppressed I click to go and if they die it was maximum I could have done.
Vet system - I would like some better that it is now, but if it remains as it is I could go with this too.
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The factions that will be removed are the least popular aka the OF factions.
This effectively means that EF serves as a similar expansion to OF but instead of being able to play with WH/US and OF, you'll be playing with WH/US and EF
The above is the only way to make sure that Soviets and Ostheer factions will be able to re-crew weapons normally like WH/US. It is also the only way that we can acomodate 'Ranking online' as well as being able to automatch as you normally do. Without replacing the 2 factions all of this cannot and will not be fixed
Adding the retreat back to the soviets , is THE ONLY WAY to allow Prop War(and the officer equivalent) to work with the soviets. Without adding back the retreat these features will NOT work.
Please note that only the 3-4 hard capped upgraded conscript NKVD squads will retain the 'no retreat'
So these are the only available options to choose from
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It is also the only way that we can acomodate 'Ranking online' as well as being able to automatch as you normally do.
If you replace brits and Pe, you can´t differentiate between your normal relic factions and the new factions, when you look at your account, right?
Means ether if you play ostheer or PE, you will level up the same faction
Please note that only the 3-4 hard capped upgraded conscript NKVD squads will retain the 'no retreat'
So if you add the retreat ability for the whole army, some units can retreat some not?
Would be the solution for that.
Anyway who retreats in russian faction will be shot ;D
If relic has to chance a DLL file it is a chance for the game. it would be an update and they don´t intend to make one.
They get no money for it
About replacing factions:
The main achievment of your mod is, in my opinion, that you did´nt replace a faction you made a new one along with the unchanged relic factions
Other mods modified all factions but you added something completly new
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About replacing factions:
The main achievment of your mod is, in my opinion, that you did´nt replace a faction you made a new one along with the unchanged relic factions
Other mods modified all factions but you added something completly new
+1
old ladies applause (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFWrQUtx018#)
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About replacing factions:
The main achievment of your mod is, in my opinion, that you did´nt replace a faction you made a new one along with the unchanged relic factions
Other mods modified all factions but you added something completly new
+1
old ladies applause (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFWrQUtx018#)
+1
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Could it be done this way that you copy PE/Brit and then replace them with RedArmy/Ostheer and then add PE/Brit as actually new factions - this way RedArmy and Ostheer should be able to recrew weapons and PE/Brit wouldn't? PE doesn't have any weapons to recrew anyway, and Brit only emplacements.
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Could it be done this way that you copy PE/Brit and then replace them with RedArmy/Ostheer and then add PE/Brit as actually new factions - this way RedArmy and Ostheer should be able to recrew weapons and PE/Brit wouldn't? PE doesn't have any weapons to recrew anyway, and Brit only emplacements.
I sort of like this idea, and it's actually what I was thinking about once. If this isn't a possibility I would like to see all Relic factions removed, not just two of them. I think that no retreat for only conscripts is good, and that some vet system would be nice as well.
So basically, keep all the Relic factions or don't keep any (just keep EF factions).
For now I'm going with: "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions"
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Keep in mind that the soviets will never be able to recrew weapons without replacing the OF factions. And just to make clear what we mean by replacing:
Essentially this fixes all the issues BUT turns EF into an expansion similar to OF where you have 4 fully playable factions in game at any one time.
When you fire up OF, you have the matchup WH/PE/US/British
When you fire up EF, you'll have the matchup WH/Ostheer/US/Soviets
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Could it be done this way that you copy PE/Brit and then replace them with RedArmy/Ostheer and then add PE/Brit as actually new factions - this way RedArmy and Ostheer should be able to recrew weapons and PE/Brit wouldn't? PE doesn't have any weapons to recrew anyway, and Brit only emplacements.
i was thinking of the same thing :)
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That's a major change in the other factions ,so no it can't happen
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Just one point i want to say about this discussion;
WHEN red army get veterancy AND retreat all of you
should think about the consequences; what will make
red army now so special or so unique?
For me red army is a unique faction BECAUSE it break down
CoH mechanics and that is a really cool thing for me because red army had to be played different from old factions.
So please think about consequences and the price.
I think you guys will find a lot of arguments for
or against one idea or poll option and so i dont want to
interrupt the "voice of the community" any more ;)
Lord Rommel
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I would like just to remove all the Relic Factions, including Wher and US. Does it really make sense to have them fighting side by side... or can they not be removed like that, perhaps locked? It's just my feeling that if you're going to remove two Relic factions, then why keep any? (Again, maybe a technical problem, IDK)
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Could it be done this way that you copy PE/Brit and then replace them with RedArmy/Ostheer and then add PE/Brit as actually new factions - this way RedArmy and Ostheer should be able to recrew weapons and PE/Brit wouldn't? PE doesn't have any weapons to recrew anyway, and Brit only emplacements.
Btits have mortar, MG, Bofors, 17lbs, 25lbs emplacements, commando MG and mortar. All of these can be recrewed. Thats more than any other fraction. :P
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Ah nbeerbower your one of those historical freaks ay? XD
I'd only go with that if we had more races to replace the Americas and Wehr with (so 4 EF sides), and that would take a lot of more time.
Plus, original point of the mod was to add to the game, not remove from it.
wordsmith's idea is interesting. Like Zerstorer said it's a major change to the vanilla factions, something we've always been against.
But, a very good point. Would just need to edit every pickup-able heavy weapon, and swap out the British pickup squad, for a Soviet one.
Paciat has a good point also, but you could say Brit heavy weapons are more easily available (built straight where their needed also), plus majority of the time you can't recrew them, they get destroyed instead.
But, removing the recrew ability will stop them from getting other Allied/Axis heavy weapons too.
Guys feel this should be added to the poll? Allow Soviets to recrew heavy weapons, at the expensive of the Brits being able to do so.
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All factions have recrewable weapons/emplacements. Brits also have commando MG/Mortar.
Re-crewing is as much about your own weapons as it is about stealing the enemy's weapons.
PE will happily steal 57s/mgs/mortars(even friendly WH ones!) etc and stolen weapons can give you that necessary advantage (surely you know how useful captured MG42s are!).
Beaking core mechanics is not what makes a faction different, not in my opinion. There are four factions as a testiment to that...ane the Brits who somewhat deviated from those core mechanics, are the least popular of the four (see a pattern?).
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Some simple facts that will dictate weather or not these changed need to happen. Please not that the possible solutions to the problem are ONLY, either removing the OF factions. OR Relic adding the functionality required.
#1: Veterancy: This shouldn't be hard to understand. Veterancy is a very basic and critical component to COH. The soviets dont have veterancy, the "solution" that is built into the soviets by having different infantry doesn't even close to address this problem. The ostheer will also need a veterancy system that works.
#2: Retreat: At some piont you have to ask yourself, is the "realism" in the faction hurting the actual playability of the game. what if you could have inf climb on a tank and throw a grenade into the hatch to kill the tank? would it be realistic? yes it would...would it break the game and not work at all in COH? YES. The fact that the soviets cant retreat is a problem. Ive heard some uninformed players talk about adapting to the faction and play it differently than traditional factions. You DO need to play the soviets differently but retreat (like veterancy) is critical to making any faction work. The ebb and flow of COH is a back and forth combat system that allows for comprehensive attacking and retreating based on battlefield conditions. If a faction cant retreat the faction WILL fail.
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Retreat To me, the best part with the soviets is the "no retreat". It opends up a whole new gameplay in CoH.
Ranking Thank god for no ranking, that's almost the best part, no drop-hackers.
Recrew No recrew works well ingame, one of the weak spots of the brutal soviet manspam. (just think about if they spamed that howitzer mortar and recrewed them with conscripts) :S
Veterancy not sure, However it have to not be a US or PE copy.
Automatch Hates VP...
the problem is that ostheer won't be able to recrew :/
but you should keep the German factions, both are fun to use against USSR
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Hi,
4 fully playable factions in game at any one time
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1).Why only 4 Playable units with full functionality and why not 6 or 8?
2).And, Why does it effect only the expansion factions ?
Anyway, Recrew /Vet would be nice to have elements ...My favourite faction are the brits , But would love to play the WH/OH-USA/USSR..
Regards
funnyme
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Engine limitations mean that there can only be 4 fully functioning factions. This is beyond our control and can only be fixed by Relic via a patch.
It affects British and Panzer Elite factions because they were deemed as the least played and least enjoyed. Apparantly.
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Yeh, only 4 can fully work 100% (re-crew, automatch, ranking).
Unless Relic changes something on their end.
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I would like to see the British and the PE removed, even though they are fun to play as. They just cause a headache when deciding who to play as. I don't want to have to pick between three allied factions and three Germans faction, then decide who to play against. But i don't want Russia to have the option to retreat or gain veteran, it is what makes them so unique. But the ostheer should be able to vet and possibly retreat. So get rid of the PE/British and allow the Russians to re-crew their weapons.
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Yeh, only 4 can fully work 100% (re-crew, automatch, ranking).
Unless Relic changes something on their end.
I don't know if I posted my idea clearly before, so again, in regards to Dragon93's post: is it possible to make 4 100% fully working factions?: Wehr, US, Ostheer, Soviet AND 2 "new" factions PE&Brit? While PE&Brit would be copied 1:1...
I know that it maybe not so easy as I imagine it ;) when I was younger I made some code working too and often simple ideas required tons of programming so please correct me if it is not possible or extremelly difficult to make this way. And yes this suggestion will render PE&Brit little less valuable since they will be not able to recrew but at least we can keep 6 factions, and 2 of new should work 100%.
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Really I wouldn't fret so much about this until the Ostheer come out. It's reasonable that the Soviets (minus the NKVD conscripts) get retreat, in fact it's more historically accurate. And a vet system would be nice too. Recrewable weapons with the Soviets aren't necessary right now. But, when the Ostheer roll around - it appears removing the PE and Brits is our best option.
It does seem possible that you could keep the Soviets unrecrewable, and swap the PE for the Ostheer. Then just play the PE as a "mobile faction."
All in all. Let's slow things down and get a new patch out giving the Soviets retreat and vet before doing anything too major, and let's not stop hounding Relic. Perhaps a community-wide petition or mass-email of some sort would bring more light on the issue?
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To tell the truth, I thought that the factions were right on the money.
I like how the Russians were historically correct, and the Russians don't need veterancy, because upgrades are available for them, and I think that suffices.
Also, about the recrewing heavy weapons, if it is too much trouble, why don't you guys give the two new factions the ability to salvage those items instead?
Plus, I kind of like the no retreat rule, it makes more sense, since that actually happened in Russia.
Lastly, PLEASE don't remove any of the factions, because I liked the idea of Eastern Front of being a free expansion. This way, people would just go to Eastern Front just for the variety.
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Just thinking if the community can do something like a petition to move relic update the dll file.
As we are consumers, relic should have an interest to keep their purchaser loyal.
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For me the best thing about this mod is that it adds to the game, and doesn't remove anything from it.
I really wouldn't want to see EF remove the OF factions just for the sake of recrew and ranking.
I like no recrew, like has been said earlier it is a counterpoint to the larger amount of troops the soviets can field, if they could recrew then it would mean quite a large faction redesign (i imagine)
I cannot for the life of me understand why people need a fake little army badge telling them how well theyve done to enjoy a game, who cares about ranks if your having a good time playing the game.
I would like to see the Ostheer with a different vet system to the soviets, but if the Ost had no recrew I genuinely wouldn't care so long as it was counterbalanced by something giving them an equal advantage.
At the end of the day I'd say you should stay true to the original idea behind EF, to expand CoH, and not to take things away from the player.
Besides, as "unpopular" as PE and Commonwealth are I'm sure theres a lot of people who play them and will be equally if not more pissed off about having their favorite faction removed from the mod.
To be fair, I think that if you did make this change, you'd have even more people mouthing off on the internetz about how they think it sucks.
The main reason that people moved away from this mod was the rather messy state it got released in, which has put those with no patience off. Release some updates to lure people back in, and keep going :)
Ramble over, i'm sure you'll come to the right descision anyhow.
Cheers
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The small things such as no retreat, vet and re-crew are what makes the CCCP so interesting and unique.
I believe this voting thing probably came because of the Ostheer, to make them suffer the same restrictions as the Soviets would`nt bring much good, so, my suggestion would be (if there`s no other choice) - replace the OF factions - but keep the play-style of the Soviets as is. They`r not perfect - but it`s hell of a fun to have such different faction with radical approach - it`s what makes them so dinamic ... ;)
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I will say this, the more i think about it, the more it seems that people ant to still have the British and PE armies. I like the two factions, but I don't want to have a mod get ruined because of server limitations.
Get the Ostheer in by any means, and then try to find a way to put the British and PE back into the mod. Go true to your word and deliver your promise. You said there be an Ostheer, put it in. then go back and fix the server limitation problems.
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On a semi-related note. If retreating is added to the Soviets - I would keep no-retreat not only for NKVDs but also regular conscripts. This shows that they were disposable, and It would seem like a downgrade to get NKVDs if you couldn't retreat them any longer.
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me and the chaps who play this have a plan for Allies:
One Russian and One English army, (commonwealth my bad) the Russians run out and cap and the English dig in its very good and rather solid (just don't let the Russian fox run to far)
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Registered just to make a comment here...
So, here we go:
- Add recrewing as there were cases of using trophy weaponry by Red Army.
- Add vet system, because experience of those soldiers, who lived through war, was drastically higher than experience of allied folks, who won some battles in France and Holland (even though they had special training before action and most of the Red Army were conscripts). Is there a possibility of making a mix of US and WH vet system? Like an upgrade in Armory, which gives vet1 to all built units? (via script, if possible) and the possibility of earning additional vet ranks on the battlefield? Would be nice imo.
- Retreat... Well, just because I was born in USSR I dislike all this "Enemy at the Gates" thing... So I second someone who proposed "no retreat only for NKVD squads". For example you can add retreat to Command Squad, but if it uses retreat, all nearby squads would've become supressed/pinned (morale down due to commander's retreat).
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I like soviets vet, retreat factor(if it will change maybe conscripts will be the exception), and besides they can't recrew by now it can't be helped... but that not should be a death blow to EF like luz777 said:
The main reason that people moved away from this mod was the rather messy state it got released in, which has put those with no patience off. Release some updates to lure people back in, and keep going :)
Don't listen to those losers, your mod is excellent, and i think minor changes could be implemented to make it better, so i vote for keep the faction the same. It's a shame no matter that the recrew bug still present... but hey, US have rifleman to do the job, and brits have tommies, they can do the "recrew" job, after all, those were their weapons, so why soviets would care ;D; in other hand, you could make ostheer and soviets, if the former will use weapons that could be recrewed, able to destroy them when all their crew die, like in ToV Tiger Ace mission, when you kill the two members, the third dies and the weapons just blows.
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Why is recrewing important?
It's simple, because it put unpredictable thus unbalanced element into game. Imagine Soviet player making ZiS2 AT gun, playing vs Axis, Axis player manages to decrew it. Now there is one AT gun on a scene but Soviet could not use it anymore. But Axis could!
If Wehr player f.e. I wouldn't have to build Tier2 because I will stole this gun and skip right to Tier3 or 4. If PE even better because PE doesn't have a chance to build something like this. So here we have a situation that Soviet could NOT use his own weapons BUT they could be used against him. Not to mention that Soviet engineers can't place mines (even with Sturmovie Eng. upgrade) to at least mine that damn gun.
In such situation Soviet player must be very cautious with such equipment or doesn't use it at all. And this is why recrewing is important IMO. And same would apply to Ostheer too.....
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FWIW I also prefer that the russians stay without the ability to recrew. While it seemed like a pain at first, it is one of the uniques that you need to learn how to play around. And it makes them a truly new side, not just more of the same.
I know others have said it before, but it's worth considering - if the russians could recrew, and they have 8 man squads running around then they'd be OP all over again. I think the balance currently is pretty close.
Getting the Ostheer to have recrewing is another matter. Being a german faction you'd hope they could. I'd put my signature on a note to Relic if one's getting started. I don't mind if there's no online ladder for these mods, but not being able to recrew is a bug pure and simple.
In fact the saddest thing is that if Relic aren't keen to fix the recrewing bug, it points to them not considering any further official expansions. And that's a shame (even from a purely commercial perspective - there's lots of coin out there to be liberated from we punters yet !).
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- if you remove one (or all) Allies faction then you could install ONLY Russian faction and it will be able to re-crew weapons?[/b]
The above is the only way to make sure that Soviets and Ostheer factions will be able to re-crew weapons normally like WH/US. It is also the only way that we can acomodate 'Ranking online' as well as being able to automatch as you normally do. Without replacing the 2 factions all of this cannot and will not be fixed
Why should the soviets NOW be able to recrew the weapons? Aren´t they strong enough? And why the fuck is it neccessary to get a ranking system? Playing computer games is for fun - not to raise the self-confidence.
- vet-system is now not possible to implement? (same as previous question - if you replace it then it will be possible?)
It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions"
Why should the soviets gain veterancy? Most of the units are strong enough to resist and are cheap enough to replace. You just have to spam tons of ingenerys to your opponent to win the game.
- retreat - same question, is it not possible to programm retreat without replacing old Relic faction?
It is possible, hence the answer "I agree with adding in retreat and vet, but keep the Relic factions".
Adding the retreat back to the soviets , is THE ONLY WAY to allow Prop War(and the officer equivalent) to work with the soviets.[/list]
Ok, this is a major problem but you should have known this during the conceptional phase. Why don´t you implement a retreat function to the soviets which gets only effected when prop war is used? Not possible?
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Sorry guys but you should have think about these points during the conceptional phase of this mod.
In my opinion all of the thoughts above are moving into the wrong direction and I do not think that this is the result of claims and doubts you get. I guess this is a result of massive problems with implementation of the Ostheer even if nobody knows what they can expect except of the developers.
Maybe you should have better released this amazing mod (which I didn´t play anymore due to some balance crap) until both new factions were ready and playable.
You have always praised to implement to completely new and different factions in a full working relic system. If you are now going to do such major changings your mod is not better than all the other mods (don´t get me wrong, some of them are also amazing) and your philosophy has died.
It is like in real life and absolutely normal.
Major faults in the concepts mostly result in problems after going live but a redesign is the worst way even if a mod for a computer game isn´t really critical to the majority of you/us.
Improving insead of changing should be the device.
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Sorry guys but you should have think about these points during the conceptional phase of this mod.
If you knew anything about the team, you'd know we couldn't because our Lead Developer was a stubborn dick. Now he's gone, we have the fluidity we need to make the necessary changes, even if they are extreme.
In my opinion all of the thoughts above are moving into the wrong direction and I do not think that this is the result of claims and doubts you get. I guess this is a result of massive problems with implementation of the Ostheer even if nobody knows what they can expect except of the developers.
Moving into the wrong direction? Explain. Plus, there will be no massive problems with implementing the Ostheer, they will suffer the same problems as the Soviets and that is all.
Maybe you should have better released this amazing mod (which I didn´t play anymore due to some balance crap) until both new factions were ready and playable.
Again, our old Lead Developer pushed this for a premature release, there was nothing the current team could have done about it.
You have always praised to implement to completely new and different factions in a full working relic system. If you are now going to do such major changings your mod is not better than all the other mods (don´t get me wrong, some of them are also amazing) and your philosophy has died.
What Philosophy? Being tied down to some unwritten rule that holds back progress? We implemented a new faction, bravo, but we also encountered the problems that come with that. You think recrewing would be out if there wasn't a bug? Of course it wouldn't.
It is like in real life and absolutely normal.
Major faults in the concepts mostly result in problems after going live but a redesign is the worst way even if a mod for a computer game isn´t really critical to the majority of you/us.
Improving insead of changing should be the device.
Improving results in changing and changing can result in improving. I'm afraid no matter what, you are stuck with change.
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Since yersterday if have read every comment.
This topic was started because many people are unsatisfied with the lack of
- no retreat
- veterancy
- recrewing
I know that the hard core fans of this mod don´t bother that.
But there are many people outside this forum who wants to play that mod, but these limitations holds them back.
If we are discussing about dying of this mod, because of the lack of gamer, we should think of that.
More people could be attracted, if we give them what they want:
Retreat and Veterancy
- No Retreat only for the conscripts would be an interesting game part (cheap spammable infantry but cannon fudder) and despite from that historical. In addition the axis ability would work.
My question to deverlopers:
Is it possible to add retreat to a unit like strelky, but to avoid that the player can use the ability for this unit?
- veterancy, why not? The armoury supports the troops only with weapons not with veterancy.
These changes are already possible without changing vrelic factions
- the recrewing lack is still a very dramatically problem. I think this is the pivot of this discussion because of the upcoming Ostheer.
Despite of that it only effects heavy weapons HMG and ATguns. Light Weapons like Shreks and Bars are already useable by Soviet.
But is the recrewing problem really worthy of changing vcoh?
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1. RETREAT
I really don't know why so many people think that Red Army not retreating is so "historically correct". Yes, sure, there were times when Red Army units weren't allowed to retreat (especially in the early phases of the war), but later, and especially in 1944 (when this game is set!) it was not the case. And what about the famous Hitler order to not retreat? It makes more historical sense for a game set in 1944 to have the Germans not retreating than Soviets. Also, there's a difference between strategic and tactical retreat (in game it's always tactical!).
In short: ALLOW RETREAT FOR RED ARMY (except maybe for conscripts and NKVD team), IT MAKES MORE SENSE IN EVERY WAY AND MAKES FOR A BETTER GAMEPLAY!
2. VETERANCY
I'm for it, it makes sense and makes the game more fun.
3. RANKINGS AND AUTOMATCH
It would be nice, but not at expense of other things. In short, it's the least important thing (for me).
4. RE-CREWING
This is A MUST HAVE in my opinion, even at expense of PE & Brits. After all, if somebody starts COH:EF it's most likely because he wants to play Soviets or Ostheer, not Brits or PE. For Brits and PE there's always the regular COH. Also, having 6 factions makes tougher balancing.
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1. RETREAT
(especially in the early phases of the war), but later, and especially in 1944 (when this game is set!)
the game isn´t set in 1944
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1. RETREAT
(especially in the early phases of the war), but later, and especially in 1944 (when this game is set!)
the game isn´t set in 1944
The game is obviously set in 1944 and/or '45, since many of the weapons Red Army (and the Germans) use didn't exist in '41 and '42. The campaign (once and if EF team makes it) might be set in some other time.
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If this mod is to have even the slightest hope of becoming a big hit that appeals to everyone who plays COH, removing any of the original factions will be the death of it.
The fact that all of the original maps and factions are available while playing this mod is what sets it apart from all the other mods for COH. Take that away and this mod is dead.
And honestly the no recrewing function doesn't strike me as big of a deal, and I'm sure you can work around the propaganda war problem. Maybe make it so that it has a different effect on soviets, like increasing their vulnerability to suppression.
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CAN WE STOP USING BOLD
oh my goodness guys it looks like a couple of seven year olds yelling at one another. I know I know your gonna say "that's the title idiot" but listen when you put SOMETHING IN BOLD it looks more violent to readers.
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SOMETHING IN BOLD it looks more violent to readers
KILL RELIC!!!
But, seriously we need to have some community-organized letter/petition to Relic.
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wordsmith i like the ostheer you made but the fuel loss is kind of harsh espesialy in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 maches but other than that great job
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Hi,
Aotomatch would spice up things ..., Game Compitions,Rakings etc .., That is what a player would like to see .
Think the Decision making could be left to the team ...Simple as it is , Why have a Work around when you have a solution in hand .
It will be nice to see the Outpost concept done away with , I think it would make the game play more fuild ....
Regards
funnyme
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Is it possible to make it that instead of recrewing you'll salvage the weapon? Like a mg42 HMG would give your squad a handheld mg42 lmg +manpower? Mortar: lob mortar shells by hand, or rifle nade +MP. AT: pak gives you panzershreck, US gives you bazooka. I would totaly prefer this if it's possible.
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But, seriously we need to have some community-organized letter/petition to Relic.
I kinda agree on that
It would be nice if we could make some big community petition or something to relic
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Regarding the return of the RETREAT BUTTON to make propaganda work, I still think that my solution fits the bill while still maintaining the NO RETREAT policy. from my post before:
Having the retreat button removed to represent the NO RETREAT policy is (IMO) the wrong way to go about it. I suggested that Soviet infantry should still have the retreat button, but should they retreat then they will automatically be considered as Germans (in AI terms) by Soviet and probably other allied units for as long as they are in retreat mode i.e. have that big exclamation point over their heads. The retreating units will automatically be fired upon by Soviet and other allied units (including base defenses) that they cross. If by some miracle they do make it back to the HQ then Soviet players can re-enforce them.
I believe it necessary to actually depict the shooting of retreating units as it would be more realistic and historically accurate rather than taking the shortcut and just removing the retreat button. To my understanding you have in your team a really top notch roster of members, I'm sure someone could make the SCAR code to make this work...
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CAN WE STOP USING BOLD
oh my goodness guys it looks like a couple of seven year olds yelling at one another. I know I know your gonna say "that's the title idiot" but listen when you put SOMETHING IN BOLD it looks more violent to readers.
I thought that there is difference using bold text or CAPITALS, first is used to mark main ideas so they don't get lost in the text and second is considered as yelling thus unpolite... ;)
wordsmith i like the ostheer you made but the fuel loss is kind of harsh espesialy in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 maches but other than that great job
Thank you! but please this is not the right topic, please post this to related article and following discussion :) there I can answer. Btw I have some new idea about Ostheer but I just need a time to think it through and prepare it.
Is it possible to make it that instead of recrewing you'll salvage the weapon? Like a mg42 HMG would give your squad a handheld mg42 lmg +manpower? Mortar: lob mortar shells by hand, or rifle nade +MP. AT: pak gives you panzershreck, US gives you bazooka. I would totaly prefer this if it's possible.
I like this idea, or it could simple be possible to salvage only for resources. One way or another this could be acceptable compromise.
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Its kinda sad that Relic dosent even bother to realease a patch that could make the game more "mod freindly"...
shame on you relic slackers!
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I would vote to try it out first, then make a decision. Has the EF team tried removing a faction and all ther other proposed changes and see what happens? I mean its sort of pointles to vote and then realize it couldn't be done in the first place, that sort of thing.
The only real gripe I have with EF now are balancing tweaks for Russia and the fact that they can't recrew their own weapons. They can pick up small arms lying around though.
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Well I started a thread asking Relic for action on the Company of Heroes forums.
Register and post, maybe it'll grab their attention. I know that admins that report directly to Relic do take a heavy interest on what people say there.
http://community.companyofheroes.com/forums (http://community.companyofheroes.com/forums)
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Well I started a thread asking Relic for action on the Company of Heroes forums.
Register and post, maybe it'll grab their attention. I know that admins that report directly to Relic do take a heavy interest on what people say there.
http://community.companyofheroes.com/forums (http://community.companyofheroes.com/forums)
One of our Coders knows the Relic community manager, its him we try and get our pleadings through. We try not to do it too much otherwise they will just get tired and keep ignoring us... being a thorn in Relics side is not the way to go.
However, enough voices from the community pointed in their direction (not hostile, we don't want that) may make them hear us.
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Yeah, if the problem can be fixed with a patch from Relic's end of the deal, a hate mongering group of users of this mod would make the Eastern front have less support than it could have.
But if the Commonwealth and the PE have to be removed, then fine. i rather see them remain (i voted for the wrong choice, i meant the one below it), but if Relic continues to ignore this situation, then the only option is to remove the Commonwealth and the PE until they come to help.
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EF team made a hell of a job just getting this far with this mod. But some people have to understand that they can`t do everything on their own.
We would all be happy to have smooth game with ranking system and no bugs. But that simply isn`t the case.
Even if some aspects of the Soviets came more as a technical necessity, they really left their mark on the whole faction.
No retreat - no faction has it, it`s dynamic and makes you think where you send your troops, besides, Soviet inf. dies pretty fast, and most of the time it simply doesn't pay-of retreating them.
No re-crew - to quote Major Danko: Our honorable soldiers would never pickup axis heavy weapons to use them! - again, it brings a completely new approach to battle and strategy.
Veterancy - I don`t know why people like to duplicate play styles so much?- Vet system is original and well balanced, if you want to rank up your soldiers, you have 3 other factions to do so.
EF team made a fantastic job, using limitations to their advantage, and made a very different and fun to play faction, and even if Relic would fix all this problems, changing Soviets to "match" the US or Brits would be nonsense, it would trigger the change of whole faction-structure along with the whole new balance, and loose much of it`s potential.
The main problem here are not the Soviets - but the Ostheer. My suggestion to our EF comrades would be - do what you feel is right.
This mod will never die, it`s just to good. And what ever you choose to do, it can be fixed or adopted later.
Personally, I would`nt mind having an Axis faction that fights to the last, no surrender - no retreat. After all, Eastern Front was not just a clash of armies - but ideology`s - where both sides fought to extinction, and that just might be the mark of this mod. Heavy weapons were never left - rather destroyed (this was especially true for the Germans), I believe this approach is worth exploring, even if we would have to renounce some things we love to use in game - we would gain much more.
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The main problem here are not the Soviets - but the Ostheer. My suggestion to our EF comrades would be - do what you feel is right.
The easiest way to deal with no recrew with Ostheer is to not give them recrewable weapons!
No heavy MG, just LMG squads (it would work like US BARs)
No AT guns (maybe 7,5cm AT emplacements - UK emplacements ralelly get decrewed). This icludes 88s.
No mortars, a halftrack could have a mortar or a 150mm nebel upgrade (weaker than walking stuka).
No howitzers, just doctrinal mobile medium arti. (Wespe)
Personally, I would`nt mind having an Axis faction that fights to the last, no surrender - no retreat. After all, Eastern Front was not just a clash of armies - but ideology`s - where both sides fought to extinction, and that just might be the mark of this mod. Heavy weapons were never left - rather destroyed (this was especially true for the Germans)
Is no vet and no retreat also a must have COH engine bug?
I allways thouth that ist becouse Devs wanted it that way.
Anyway Germans made some good tactical withdraws in N. Africa, Italy, France but the Eastern Front was a different story.
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No Vet and No Retreat was a design decision, it's not like the Recrew bug. These could be reimplemented quite easily although we'd obviously want to make them stylised to match the Soviets.
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If that were true, we wouldn't be having threads like 'is the mod dead? No one is playing online' etc. And these where not exaggerations for anyone who logs on can see that.
99% of the first two weeks feedback and balance bugs(and we are talking about many hundered of these bombarding us !!) were about not being able to re-crew/retreat/prop war...then ranking,vet ...couple dwith the bad balance (which of couse some people funnily enough liked!)
The truth of the matter is that if the majority of people did like it we would be having loads of regular online gaming and of course bucket loads of good replays both here and in GR showing some nice competitive play. But that's not the case.
Being unable to re-crew is an engine limitation which we begged Relic to fix. But this isn't going to happen. If they had fixed it we would have added it imediatelly without any debate whatsoever.
Similarly with prop war, I totally fail to see why anyone would be ok with this as it practically takes away the Terror doctrine from the game. The only way I can see someone being ok with this is...if they're comp stomping against WH all they time and love the fact that their blob can't be proped.-This in terms means an unfixable bad balance issue, yet some would be ok with that indicating balance is not on their mind.
As a 6th faction Ostheer will suffer from the same issues. Add to that the fact that balancing two new flawed factions with 4 others the chances of having any semblance of decent balance is highly unlikely.
There is NO existing veterancy for infantry or vehicles. The infantry has upgrades much like the rifles get stickies/nades of brits /WH getbrens/lmg etc. That ain't vet. Its like saying, you research nades so your rifles become vet1, you research stickies and they become vet2, then you research bars and they're vet3.
NO. Weapon upgrades and veterancy are TWO SEPERATE functions in the game
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Interesting response from Thunder (Relic's community manager), over at the official Company of Heroes Community (http://community.companyofheroes.com/forums/topic/4062):
I don't think it's fair to say that the mod is dying or that it's dying because Russian squads can't recrew weapons or whatnot.
We've helped out the EF guys in the past and will continue listen to their team, they're good guys and talented people.
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As much as I appreciate support from Thuinder, it doesn't change what people have been posting(aka is the mod deat etc) nor the fact that people ain't playing it online( and I do log on every other night on different times through the day to check).
And that kinda hints that since they're not considered big problems 'by yours trully' its unlikely that we'd see a patch to accomodate these to that effect. Could I be wrong about this? Maybe....maybe not
The fact remains untill such 'solutions' present themselves from relic, we have to get them solved another way
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The fact remains that he claims that Relic will continue to listen to us. With enough community support (and help from other mods), we could probably get a good number of things fixed.
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Perhaps Thunder's response will give the community
the chance to start a petition for implement recrewing and ranked matches with mod factions.
I think this a point we should try;
A community petition for helping the modding community!
Lord Rommel
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That's all well and good, when/if that time comes we can take advantage of the fixed issues and improve things further.(as per the response its not like they're unaware of these..)
But we can't just sit and pray for another couple of years while they make up their minds.
Its about fixing things with what is now available to us, so we won't hit bottom and then have to try and crawl all the way back up
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I would take that gesture of thunders seriously and send relic an elaborate letter explaining that the best fix would be to give moders the ability to have more than 4 fully functional factions.
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You're right we can't sit back and wait for Relic. Our best idea now is to lightly implement retreat and vet into the Soviets, forget recrewing for now. Recrewing should only become an issue when the Ostheer are ready to be released then we can consider removing the Brits and PE. For now we should add what we can with the Soviets, and if Relic doesn't come around by the time the Ostheer are out about despite our pleading - then we do something drastic like remove OF factions.
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would it be possible to take PE and UK out, but wehrmacht and americans completely revise again?
I mean that each PE and the UK are involved on a doctrine.
Logically, then, the choice of units strong doctrinal be subject.
So I would prefer this compromise as there will not really disappear something
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I partly agree with these changes. But I would suggest another approach by solving issues with the EF version 1.04 (still crashing far too often - specially in multiplayer mode). ONLY when the game runs without problems, you should introduce OH and also the a.m. changes. I rather see Relic's non-response as a wait-and-see tactic because they know for sure what kind of problems there are with the current version of EF. Also, you gotta understand, that Relic is a business and needs to make money. Does anybody have a idea whether they are working on an addition for the CoH game? I would think so, because it makes sense. So, please concentrate on perfecting EF as a--playable-- version, so it does not crash anymore. Thanks.
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How can this mod be dead if it only today had 1,565 visits on moddb and is ranked nr 4 of 11,591?!
In any case, EF will have one more BIG chance once Ostheer is released. I expect a new record in number of players on coh server once this happens. By then you have enough time to solve the re-crewing issue.
I'm sure that you, the EF team, will know how to capitalize on the opportunities offered by the release of the Ostheer faction!
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I keep my fingers crossed that Relic will one day find the time to help, but Gencrusher's right, they are business and we shouldn't expect them to jump through hoops just to please us.
Thunders post is good news though... although listening doesn't fix problems, it's start... certainly more than most mod teams get ;)
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That's all well and good, when/if that time comes we can take advantage of the fixed issues and improve things further.(as per the response its not like they're unaware of these..)
But we can't just sit and pray for another couple of years while they make up their minds.
Its about fixing things with what is now available to us, so we won't hit bottom and then have to try and crawl all the way back up
Think anyone will hold the team back of doing something or program "an other solution".
But a letter wont change the situation for the worse ;)
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I voted for removing the relic factions, primaraly because I think being able to play automacth would give new life to the mode with is needed it. In addition all the Brits haters would begin to play the mode and their is like a million of them.
The downside is that you can't play Pe vs Russia.
Is it possible to make a version where you have Brit and PE + Russia? If it is than you could have all possible macth-ups with three versions of the game.
tl;dr awesome idea go for it
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I voted for removing the relic factions, primaraly because I think being able to play automacth would give new life to the mode with is needed it. In addition all the Brits haters would begin to play the mode and their is like a million of them.
The downside is that you can't play Pe vs Russia.
Is it possible to make a version where you have Brit and PE + Russia? If it is than you could have all possible macth-ups with three versions of the game.
tl;dr awesome idea go for it
Until we implement Ostheer fully, the matchup will be US/Soviets/PE/WH
There is a possibility we might be able to do it so you choose EF vs COH or EF vs OF.
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Recrewing weapons and retreating is a bad trade off, if it cost 2 whole factions. Learn to use to other armies, instead of doing the same old thing over and over, just because it's easy.
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I came from GR.org after reading a post there asking people's opinions.
The basic gist of most of the replies there was that Brits and PE are basically broken for different reasons in comparison to US and Wehr factions, so why even ask about replacing them to get the functionality the dev team wants from the factions. (Seriously... read the replies there, I'm not exaggerating.)
Might I suggest making a true poll there, as there is a large skilled playerbase there mostly aware of the design and balance issues that exist in the current version of CoH, but they might not be motivated enough to come here and register to vote...
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Seriously, if the options are full functionality + removal of brits vs some functionality and still having brits the choice is obvious. Brits are broken anyway, removing them would be a blessing to the game.
Also, for the Ostheer I understand that it might be very important to have recrewing available. Therefore since it's probably going to be necessary to replace factions anyway you might as well start now.
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Ok, i don't think Relic will help out this mod for one reason; they are a company. if they can make a buck making a game instead of helping a mod, they will go for the game. A company needs to have money flowing in order to stay afloat, especially in times like these. So, that is that.
on the idea that you could choose whether you want to play EF-COH or Ef-OF, i liked the idea. It allows the players to play how they want. honestly, i play the Ef-COH just because i like the wher/Us better than i do the PE/British.
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This mod is in no way dead, like said above its got the 4th largest amounts of hits on Moddb, surely that speaks about the mod more than the people who just complain and spout rubbish, the same with any mod.
I honestly think that if you put a slow trickle balance tweaks, bugfixes, reward units and Ostheer teasers out it would get people playing again. Especially with another big balanced release for the Ost (I know it wasn't your guys fault last time).
Then again I realise that the majority of the hardcore CoH community aren't going to be happy unless they get the OF factions removed, automatch back and the oh so precious ranking.
Losing two factions, even for recrewing, is not worth it to me, although clearly there is a good deal of support for it.
Also having versions of Vanilla CoH, EF-CoH and EF-OF would possibly split the player base even more than it is now.
Ugggh important descisions :-\
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The mod isn't dead in that we, the modders, are still here fighting for it to get the interest back.
I logged online against last night and guess how many games of EF were on....same as yesterday and most of the week...aka none.
We were rank 11, now 8 in moddb. That shows a certain interest still exists thankfully, but people are still not playing it. They're waiting for things to get fixed and that's what we're trying to do.
A quick look on the Announcements Section and the Eastern Front release threads and patches and you'll notice how many people have been asking for the fixes we're putting up the poll for.
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... our Lead Developer ...
... our old Lead Developer ...
Yeah, this easy.
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(sarcasm on)
Sorry folks but this isn´t the fault of the team because our old Lead Developer was a blockhead and we couldn´t argue at him that there are still too many open issues left.
(sarcasm off)
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You cannot imagine how often I have heard such excuses in real life. It is absolutely unnecessary to know anything about your team to understand that you are facing problems which might be caused by your old lead developer.
Why don´t you concentrate on the amazing work you´ve already done and find a way out of this mess instead of making (imo) another mistake? If you will change the non existing vet system and recrewing function to the soviets all the claims about balance and all the early problems you dealt with until now will start over again. The soviets are fine working as they are.
This is why I said your thoughts are moving in the wrong direction.
What Philosophy? Being tied down to some unwritten rule that holds back progress? We implemented a new faction, bravo, but we also encountered the problems that come with that. You think recrewing would be out if there wasn't a bug? Of course it wouldn't.
To be honest - an unwritten rule is the same as Philosophy and your unwritten rule/philosophy was to implement a new faction without any changings to the original CoH.
You should be proud instead of worsen you. You did an awesome work and all I wanted to say is that you only have to improve some intricacies of your mod. This is what relic does over years now.
I really do not understand why you are saying the progress is hold back. EF is fully playable and most of us enjoy playing your mod. But if you read between the lines you might gain problems with your Ostheer concepts. Maybe the Ostheer was/is designed whith recrewing and vet abilities but you should be (and I guess you are) intelligent enough to know that relic won´t help you as much as you desire so there has to be a plan B, or not?
Changing the original and unique concept by splitting it from from original CoH and remove two factions now couldn´t be the right way because this is what makes EF so interesting and awesome and would be a radical step back.
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So please do not feel pissed off and do not take everything too serious. I take my hat off to the EF team but I still think that you should find other ways to remove the problems you´re facing now.
Same goes for critics - remember that your mod is still for free and that all of you spend their free time on it just to amuse the CoH community and just for that you should and could be proud on you.
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We're trying to fix what's broken based on the majority feedback, to make the mod more successful and MOST importantly more fun for alot more people.
Hanging our head down and accepting defeat isn't what we do, especially when we CAN fix the issues.
Ignoring the feedback and keeping down the road which has proven usuccessful would be idiotic of us.
The fact remains some people aren't bothered by the fact that the faction is indeed broken. Don't much care about balance either(cause balance is bad when a faction is broken) because the gaming experience for them is still fun.
Some people on the other hand would prefer the factions to work perfectly even if that means the limitation of not being able to have all 6 in the same match at the same time. For them a better balance game with complete features increases the experience ten fold.
And that is what the poll is about.
Responding to the majority feedback can never be a mistake!
Fixing the root cause of the problems isn't causing more problems. Its making the job alot easier when it comes to fixing what problems are left.
Do you play 1v1 games online? Do you play vs humans with and against EF? Is there any reason why despite enjoing it so much you've never felt the need to post a replay to show a really awesome game you enjoyed that much? How often do you play online? Do you play competitive vanila COH online at all and what's your rank?
Backround helps us alot to see where you're coming from with regards to your opinions about not fixing things, so I'd be quite interested to know
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We're trying to fix what's broken based on the majority feedback, to make the mod more successful and MOST importantly more fun for alot more people.
Your plans doesn´t fix the problems - they redesign the mod because you have to split EF from CoH.
Responding to the majority feedback can never be a mistake!
You are absolutely right so take a look at the poll - over 20% are with me and they think that your plans would be a bad idea.
Do you play 1v1 games online? Do you play vs humans with and against EF? Is there any reason why despite enjoing it so much you've never felt the need to post a replay to show a really awesome game you enjoyed that much? How often do you play online?
You compare apples and oranges like you did in my balance thread or do you want to adjust this mod for me?
If you had read my few statements in this forum with care you should have understand that I do not play your mod any longer due to massive balance problems. I do not exclude that this is just my personal incompetence but this makes your mod quite honestly unenjoyable for me.
Do you play competitive vanila COH online at all and what's your rank?
Is this about EF or vanilla CoH?
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You guys have to do what to do. If you think that removing existing factions is the best way - so what? I really do not care a fig about it.
Some personal words to you Zerstörer:
Starting a kind of personal war in an official forum puts you in a very precarious position.
Constructive criticism - do you remember? ;)
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Debating opinions is not a personal war. Its plain conversation. I've not 'attacked you' in any manner nor have I been impolite, So, please either respond to what is asked or don't, but don't make random accusations about being picked on etc you're not gaining any points. If you don't want to answer what I asked that's fine, I'm not going to go any further with this.
The fact that you don't play the mod as you've stated(and yes I remember your previous statements) tells me quite a bit about where you're coming from when stating your opinion about the future of this mod. Its taken into consideration, thanks for your time.
The poll is nowhere near done as yet as its only been 2 days really with only 83 people voting. I would hope for near 200 votes so we'll leave it on for 7-10 days or so.
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The mod's not dead.... just in a coma.
@ Westoffensive - What ridiculous statements. Stop the self-righteous attitude of "don't make excuses/life is like that/philosophy" and believing you know the politics of the dev team. The fault quite clearly lies with the ex-lead, as demonstrated by the dramatic improvements to the mod since he left and the team has obviously been working hard to improve this mod constantly. Also, telling a dev team to be more like relic in their updates could possibly be the worst advice I've ever seen or heard.
Ah, a new post since I've began writing this...
"You are absolutely right so take a look at the poll - over 20% are with me and they think that your plans would be a bad idea."
A clear omission that the vast majority favour some sort of change. Your entire post also happens to dance away from answering the question of what your rank is.
"Starting a kind of personal war in an official forum puts you in a very precarious position.
Constructive criticism - do you remember?"
A condescending statement coming from someone who has much to criticise and nothing to suggest.
You should keep the attitude out of your posts.
Anyway, I agree that removing the OF factions entirely is a terrible move in that it can only detract from the total value of the mod. I think that if anything isn't done over at Relic (extremely likely), the best course of action would be to design the factions around not having heavy weapons and being able to salvage them in some way.
I voted for keeping the factions but adding retreat and vet functionality. Retreat and Vet are fundamental concepts of CoH, even the Brits have them. Much of the CoH gameplay comes from the preservation of your units and while conscripts may be expendable, I hardly think the command squad is so I would like to keep the conscripts as no-retreat while adding it to the rest of the army. I don't really know how to add vet to the Soviets in a unique way but I do like the idea of bought/earnt combination vet for the Ostheer.
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... our Lead Developer ...
... our old Lead Developer ...
Yeah, this easy.
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(sarcasm on)
Sorry folks but this isn´t the fault of the team because our old Lead Developer was a blockhead and we couldn´t argue at him that there are still too many open issues left.
(sarcasm off)
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You cannot imagine how often I have heard such excuses in real life. It is absolutely unnecessary to know anything about your team to understand that you are facing problems which might be caused by your old lead developer.
These 'problems' would have been thrashed out rationally had we been able to discuss problems openly like we can now, I expressed balance concerns many times before the release, many people did, but these concerns were ignored and the mod was released. We all saw how well that went. You can't crash a Boat and blame it on the passengers.
Why don´t you concentrate on the amazing work you´ve already done and find a way out of this mess instead of making (imo) another mistake? If you will change the non existing vet system and recrewing function to the soviets all the claims about balance and all the early problems you dealt with until now will start over again. The soviets are fine working as they are.
This is why I said your thoughts are moving in the wrong direction
What do you think we're doing? Balance may be hard but its not some gigantic unachievable task, especially when you have decent balancers (which we do now), of course, there will always be people complaining about balance, there's nothing we can do about that, the best we can hope for is pleasing the majority, and if the majority doesn't include you, that's not our problem. The way I see it, there is always room for improvement, if that means tearing down old walls and building news ones, so be it! If the fucking house collapses in the process, you can't say we didn't try.
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I came from GR.org after reading a post there asking people's opinions.
The basic gist of most of the replies there was that Brits and PE are basically broken for different reasons in comparison to US and Wehr factions, so why even ask about replacing them to get the functionality the dev team wants from the factions. (Seriously... read the replies there, I'm not exaggerating.)
Might I suggest making a true poll there, as there is a large skilled playerbase there mostly aware of the design and balance issues that exist in the current version of CoH, but they might not be motivated enough to come here and register to vote...
Please post the link.
On the face of it the majority of the forum members will vote for implement vet and retreat but keep the relic factions.
But the people outside this forum, from whom these complains came and we need to recrut to play, don´t vote.
As i understand these people would agree to remove the relic factions in order to play again.
So it would be very good to implement these people into the vote, perhaps by starting another vote on a gamers page.
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The thing about recrewing is that its not only about doing so for your own weapon. Its about denying them to your opponent.
How many time have you de-crewed and MG/Mortar and left it so your opponent can re-crew it and cause you the same problems all over again? You're much more likely to steal it than have time or chance to sit and try to destroy it(which you never do with anything other than an AT gun).
Because of these mechanics and the fact that heavy weapons can be de-crewed easily because they can be recrewed, its not really possible to balance this as things stand with just cost and weapon strength or unit size/health.
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I have an idea!
AT guns are like, 300 mp, right? Well in the support barracks you could buy JUST a weapon crew for like 100 mp. They are the same stats as mechanics and forces on recerwing motels, AT guns, and mg. If not the enemy's, at least our own.
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I have an idea!
AT guns are like, 300 mp, right? Well in the support barracks you could buy JUST a weapon crew for like 100 mp. They are the same stats as mechanics and forces on recerwing motels, AT guns, and mg. If not the enemy's, at least our own.
I don't know if I understood well you idea. But it gives me some inspiration, I was wondering if it is possible to give decrewed AT gun a status of "armor wreck" and then either salvage it or recover it with special recovery engineers? Same for mortars. It would be like bypassing the game mechanics, but at least opponent wouldn't be able to use against...
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If the fucking house collapses in the process, you can't say we didn't try.
Yes, but I think that even the possibility is rather dramatical for this mod.
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Ok guys,
because this mod has died for me a long time ago this is the last post from me in here.
Maybe I will play this mod some day again but for now I´ll erase the last part of the EF chapter by deleting this forum account. And the bullshit I have read from GodlikeDennis is the last straw.
Just one thing I wanted to know:
What is so important about the personal rank? Who really cares about that? I know a lot of people out there which have a higher rank than me even if they have a negative win-loss statistic. They just play more often because they might have more time. So the ranking system do not provide anything about the real playing ability of a player.
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Rank goes hand in hand with competitive play which is the core of any online multiplay game. Its about competing against others for a better position.
Unless you're hacking it also indicates ability to play the game and level of understanding of the game mechanics and balance. Cause that allows you to take advantage of them and win enough to have a higher rank.
To keep a high rank, you play alot of games. When you play a lot of games you gain better experience and understanding.
If you're striving for a higher rank then you're bound to delve deeper into balance/mechanics and understand better how that is achieved.
Its not black and white, but it is a good bet that the higher the rank the more sound the opinion will be. Besides that wasn't the only question.
In either case you've stated many time the mod is dead for you and you're not playing etc, so I don't quite see the point of indulging further on this. We'll take the steps we feel are necessary to fix things.
You're already not playing the mod so any fix we put in place can't make the mod any worse for you.
So, lets move on
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You noted the lack of games being play, the question you need to answer is why? There are dozens of people starting vanilla CoH games, and a small percentage of mod games going lately. 3 months ago, it seemed like the majority of the players were into modded games The poll you should be taking is: What is preventing /deterring you from playing EF or other mods? And you have to have more than a couple vague generic choices to get their reasons across.
I play EF 90% of the time, experimenting with different armies, and sometimes dealing with bugs/problems.
These are some of problems that I have seen in EF, that may be keep others away. In no particular order.
High crash rate.
First units not producing after an upgrade.
Players not patched to the same level, preventing play between them.
Lack of ranking for Soviets.
High cost for low quality units, especially weapons crew with no recrew.
Fix the game play bugs first, then consider options to change the main issue, which is probably the lack of ranking system keeping top players away.
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We were rank 11, now 8 in moddb. That shows a certain interest still exists thankfully, but people are still not playing it. They're waiting for things to get fixed and that's what we're trying to do.
Imo, large amount of them are waiting for Ostheer.
Not to say there aren't people waiting for fixes.
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High crash rate.
If you go through CoH forums you'll see that they have the same problem, unless the crash isn't on the middle of game. I mean, if CoH do that, EF usually will behave the same, after all, its a mod of it.
Players not patched to the same level, preventing play between them.
Ehmm... you have the same with Relic's CoH and any other multiplayer game.
Lack of ranking for Soviets.
The only way to get ranking and recrew is a)replacing OF factions or b)Relic will release a patch fixing this.
I have been thinking about a method to get vet, but the only thing i thought is something like "the sins of the father are the sins of the son", every single squad will gain experience by themselves like the allies, when the first unit of that type reach vet 1, new units from that type will be built with vet 1 and so on; those others units on the field of the same type will remain with the same vet as do conscripts when you upgrade to nkvd conscripts, of course conscripts and nkvd ones would not gain vet.
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I think the point is that the community at large is not playing EF or mods in general. Why? Dunno but during the early summer months it might be beneficial to release a balance patch if you don't by then. Why? More people will be home and out of school, thus providing an increased amount of players. As far as the mod being dead, its not dead forum or DL wise, but Online it is. Biggest problem is that people are DLing the 1.00 Patch and its high imbal and people will start to wonder if DLing the patches are worth it. Provide a new installer that has an auto updater that forces you to DL the new patch before starting the game. This might turn the few people who like the OP of the 1.00 russians but at least the community at large will be on the same patch and will probably provide a better experience for those who are just starting to play the mod rather then being completely bum fucked by the 1.00 Russians.....
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We're trying to fix what's broken based on the majority feedback, to make the mod more successful and MOST importantly more fun for alot more people.
Hanging our head down and accepting defeat isn't what we do, especially when we CAN fix the issues.
Ignoring the feedback and keeping down the road which has proven usuccessful would be idiotic of us.
The fact remains some people aren't bothered by the fact that the faction is indeed broken. Don't much care about balance either(cause balance is bad when a faction is broken) because the gaming experience for them is still fun.
Some people on the other hand would prefer the factions to work perfectly even if that means the limitation of not being able to have all 6 in the same match at the same time. For them a better balance game with complete features increases the experience ten fold.
And that is what the poll is about.
Responding to the majority feedback can never be a mistake!
Fixing the root cause of the problems isn't causing more problems. Its making the job alot easier when it comes to fixing what problems are left.
+1
unrealted to the quote
I don't now why so few people mention that you would be able to play automacth. This give you the posebility to play against equally skilled opponents with I think is more fun.
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Hi, I extra registered for this tread. Maybe you know me as huetti07 from other forums.
I have voted for others...
I would enable Russians and the coming ostheer to recrew.
Then I would keep PE and Brits, but then they arent able to recrew. Pe have their mobile Vehicle which replace motar, mg and at-gun. Flaks are something special then... :-\
The British emplacements could be made that way, that you cant decrew them, only destroy them.
That way you can do everything for Russians and Ostheer, also with Vet and retreat... and you can keep OF factions, not fully playable, but if someone wants to play with them, he can...
That is my suggestion and I am not playing online, because when I have time, there is nobody waiting for a match.
Maybe the problem is, that nobody opens a game :P
I dont know, also I am waiting for a patch for weeks, because of your nice pictures you uploaded and I thought, when the updater has no source to update, maybe there is something new to be uploaded :D
BTW, who was the Lead Developer, you are talking from?
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That's messing up relic's faction's balance which opens a whole new can of worms.
Won't happen. sorry
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You Know what I have vote ;)
Keep the existing ones and sent the soviets back to their "mamas " wiping , Keep on Team :)
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huh strange I didnt think we could have political pictures at the bottom of our posts...
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huh strange I didnt think we could have political pictures at the bottom of our posts...
Of course you can, off-topic anyway.
I agree georider. If we give the Soviets some retreat and a vet system along with some other goodies form 1.05 then I think a huge crowd will come back to us including the 'hardcore' guys. Right now removal of the PE and Brits seems a bit too drastic.
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Someone said(I don't remember who :-[) about classifying retreating units as hostiles until reach HQ, i like the idea, i would like to ask to Dev's Team, are they planning to penalize retreating units if implemented?
Regards.
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I have been a huge supporter of this mod and I am organising a huge EF lan with my friends tomorrow as a testimony to that. :) but I will put my 2cents in on this discussion..
Firstly I must give credit to the suggestion of allowing Soviet's & Ostheer to recrew while keeping the British and PE in the game without the ability to recrew. A slight tweak to the strength of British emplacements and PE could balance this out as I don't think recrewing is as important to them. However this will go against the policy of modifying existing factions and I am sure it will cause other issues.
So I'll stick to suggestions that are definitely within the developer's power. I think retreat should be as aspect of the Soviet game, it has clearly caused too much contention and has made balancing problematic. I think elite squads such as strelky/guards should have the ability but not conscripts. Obviously costs will have to be adjusted to reflect this ability.
Veterancy is another aspect. I think the Soviet's should have it but can still have a variation. I've always liked the idea of units gaining veterancy as they lose members or take damage. The other option is to allow Soveits to slowly gain veterancy over time (on surviving units) thus reflecting WWII. This will make the game interesting as the generally it has been the axis that have been the stronger teams as time goes on.
I think we have to accept the fact that relic are not going to be on board to fix issues we would all like to see resolved. It's unfortunate, but as one person pointed out, it's merely a business decision.
I think it'll be sad to see factions taken out of the game, emphasis should be put on changing a couple of mechanics and fine tuning the balance as perfectly as possible. People will continue to play a game that balanced and fair even if it isn't ideal. I think problems such as the inability to recrew give us an opportunity to think laterally about other interesting solutions.
Other suggestions could include bigger squad sizes for AT guns/Mortars, or auto re-enforcement when such units are near command nest. etc.. there are always more than one solution :)
Cheers guys!
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So, do you plan to implement the results of this poll in patch 1.05? Is that the reason why 1.05 is so late? What are other things you plan to introduce by 1.05, maybe we can discuss it...
And one other thing. If removing of Brits doesn't go through, how do you plan to resolve the re-crewing problem? Is it possible to allow Soviets to scavange heavy weapons for resources? Or you have some other idea?
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Retreat and Vet might, but recrew won't, it'll probably come along with the Ostheer (if people vote that way).
Someone said(I don't remember who :-[) about classifying retreating units as hostiles until reach HQ, i like the idea, i would like to ask to Dev's Team, are they planning to penalize retreating units if implemented?
Regards.
Not possible unfortunately. Also, seems utterly pointless. Personally, i'd just give retreating Soviet units no defensive bonuses.
huh strange I didnt think we could have political pictures at the bottom of our posts...
Every time you post in here it is completely irrelevant, please don't post in here again unless you have something to say that is on topic.
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i read that someone wrote, it would a good idea to change the places as pe and uk switch with udssr and ostheer. you only need to change that emplacements of the uk can´t be conquered any longer. only the flak88 of pe is a problem. maybe change it with ju 87 stuka? and the flak38 modify to a flak emplacement which isn´t able to be conquered.
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We're not rebalancing/changing the other factions, sorry. Plus when playing with them you won't rank up etc which of course defeats the objective. How's PE going to re crew their base defences? Not to mention the main reason you'd get luftwaffe engineers
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use his suggestion... you don't need to rebalance it... just have a slight defensive buff so people just don't 57 or Zis2 snipe them into oblivion so fast... it takes 3 shots from a 57 to kill an 88 or 20 completely... you won't be changing much to begin with and if you are going to implement the Soviets and Ostheer then you will need to make changes if you are going to add them as the Brit and PE... I voted that you add the Sov and Osth but as additional armies... No retreat for the Ostheer could work as well seeing that in Stalingrad they where surrounded and couldn't retreat either... if you don't allow PE and Brits to retreat you kill game balance anyway because they will be starting with fresh troops all the time and then you will have to balance them as well.... seeing the strength of PE and Brits lie in their ability to vet up their Officers(Brit) and Troops(PE) Personally I rather like my Vet 3 Defensive Panthers... its a very good counter to the Russian spam of IS2s and T34/85s. Point is this
Don't swap out PE or Brits if you guys don't want to mess with the balance of the factions already stated....because you will need to do that otherwise those two factions will be severely nerfed to the point where they would be rather unplayable... at least with adding the Ostheer and Sov as additional armies you can balance them to the rest...
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use his suggestion...
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Don't worry, recrew is the only hardcore bug, retreat and vet are just soviets features by now :P. In other words, the swap with OF will solve ranking and recrew only, not retreat nor veterancy. I voted for keeping relic factions and adding vet and retreat.
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Well it still doesnt solve the problem of Balancing out the OF factions if they keep them
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Replacing the British and the PE re-crewing with the Soviets and the Ostheer is the best way to go here. One of the main problems that drove away so many players was the no re-crewing stuff, and if you get the soviets and ostheer to be able to recrew again, it might bring back people.
It's no big loss for the british to not re-crew; they have almost no mobile weapon systems that need re-crewing, being a 99% emplacement defensive battle sort of army, their emplacements usually get destroyed first rather than de-crewed, and the pe only have 2 emplacements, the flak 38 and 88, which isn't that big of a loss considering pe is more of a blitzkrieg style specialist vehicle army anyways, and pe isn't really meant to be played as a long defensive battle anyways-(that's what the wehrmacht defensive doctrine, and hopefully an ostheer doctrine will be for).
No retreat is very unique for the soviets and ostheer, both game play and historically (we all know it - both sides were forbidden from retreating on the east front, and often whole units fought it out to the last man, rather than retreat). And you've done a very good job of balancing no retreat with a command squad fire up! to break suppression and pinned.
Some would complain about how useless propaganda war ability is to that - just make the affected soviet units pinned for a minute or so without being able to fire up, if possible. (morale demoralization is also propaganda war, not just retreat).
Veterancy- in your manual it was described that the soviet units were already veterans, depending on the tier level. (hard coded already in their stats when they are built, right?) The same can be done for ostheer. I'm sure there are many people who didn't bother to read this tiny bit of info and that's why they complain. Although it might help the non-believeers if you show some kind of veterancy icon for the units (maybe some sort of red star system for the soviets, and if possible, the old school coh wehrmacht vet icons that are no longer used , for ostheer), for example conscripts would be the same; no vet icon, strelky would have 1 vet icon, guards 2, and of course keep the 3 vet icon for upgraded units, so you know the affected upgrade is in effect.
Overall, keep up the good work, and good luck solving these issues.
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Leave the SU as it is. I love it because of it's unique design. Reply #31 expresses my thoughts perfectly.
- Vet: not needed.
- Retreat: need sth. for prop war and officer's forced retreat to work. Maybe a shock factor making SU inf losing health or getting instapinned for an extended period.
- Recrew: not needed. Maybe implement salvaging weapons as described in Reply #51. Even better: leave that for the ostheer.
- Ranked games: nice but don't expect EF to become popular because of it.
I can understand that you look at online gaming as an indicator of EF's success and are disappointed. But why these convoluted proposals? They will only delay the ostheer. Just get players online simultanously by promoting an EF day. Or by publicly announcing yourself being online for a kick in the butt friendly game. Lots of simple solutions for a simple problem. See Reply #99, too.
Of cause things won't change instantly. I tried to set up a Sunday Night Fight and got almost no responses. So what? I'll try again. Just a bit different.
Edit: Re. ranked: even after removing relics factions EF players won't be matched against those with an unmodded CoH, right? So we'd still be stuck with the problem of having only few players = no online gaming.
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huh strange I didnt think we could have political pictures at the bottom of our posts...
This is History and I clear it with a PM.
On the other hand as I'm reading the new posts and ideas , I realize that an EF mod with 2 factions will perform better , and we will be able to add more units inside and more different skins.
So why knot , I will support whatever team and people wants, besides I'm just a painter not a player ;)
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no i dont like the idea
removing 2 factions to basciyl get recrew? no tnx
balance recrew for sovs, by making axis (wm in particular) to recrew with 5 man squads, so volks would spend entire squad when remmaning, because pe cant, unless you make luftwafe. then only unit able to do so would be pios, but we all know pios recrwwing die to anything and when theyd be reinforced to 5 mans, they still cost just as much as full squad. yes now when wm can recrew sov weapons for mere 100 mp its imba, but 300 mp wouldnt be
as for vet and retreat, you sticked around this for so long, why change it now? just balance the sovs and make them have variety in build orders, because now every single game is the same. add 25 fuel to command squad, rax and possibly 50 to armory, also 25 at startup. and suddenly theres alot of possiblitys. but now its, make comands suqad and rax with conscirpts until you get 50 fuel, then wsc, then tank depot and armory which is around the time u have 200 munis anyway. see how theres 0 options?
also if ostheer cant reman too, like i said, in their case 6 man recrewing would then fix any issues, because of american 6 man squads.... so anyone recrewing sov and ostheer weapons would pay like 300 mp. you know the same price sov/ostheer would spend building another weapon.
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As I and others have stated:
Sacrifice Pe's and British's recrew ability for the Soviets and Ostheer.
Make the Flakvierling and the Flak 88 as emplacements and make the British and Pe emplacements non-recrewable.
Let the two factions their VET and retreat and its nearly the same... (more or less)
Then I would redo hte Vet and ability system of the Soviets:
Every ability should cost munition...
All upgrades like now available in the last building for small amount of MP and Fuel...
Weapon upgrades of Strelky( and others except conscripts) should be purchaseable seperatly for a small amount of munitions.
Strelky need a Grenade ability
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People keep forgetting that a major part of this game is to recrew not just your own weapons but your enemy's as well. You have to take this into account with removing Brit/PE ability to recrew because stolen MG42s and Paks/AT guns are invaluable for both these factions. If you cannot change these factions then you cannot balance this fact. However, you can balance your own factions and add in mechanics that allow you to salvage the weapons and/or destroy the weapon along with the crew.
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@revoluzer,
Occupying emplacements that are neutral counts as recrewing.
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as GodlikeDennis mentioned, taking the re-crewing abilities away from PE/british would cause balancing problem for them and if there are no changes to existing factions these problems can't be balanced.
imagine you just paid the fuel and manpower for an 88 flak and a mortar/sniper/artillery strike takes it out. as you cannot re-crew it you would be forced to build another one. but then it could happen again and again. so PE need the re-crewing function. otherwise 88 and flaks would be kind of useless. same goes for british (for them it's not that problematic though).
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To keep balance recrewing problem could be solved also the other way: don't allow to recrew also for Weh/PE/US/Brit. Then this "ability" would be equal for all...
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Update
The Wehrmacht Terror Propaganda doctrine ability is now working properly against the Russians - forcing a retreat.
1 less reason to add in retreat ;)
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Most excellent!
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Propaganda war not working was one of the least of our problems in my opinion. Being unable to recrew weapons is a much bigger issue.
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However it was a problem that was fixable.
Compared to the re-crew one that we can either live with, make the most of (prioritise who gets it) or ignore it (cut down to 4 sides).
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Why does everyone want to recrew?? Granted I already voted, but since I can't remember which i voted for, i probably went for the wrong one. But anyway, recrewing isn't that big of a deal. Oh, i lost my 88', well then, get over their and blow it up! Then make another later and have a squad guard it. Also, for those who scream, Germans steal SU mortars, if you lost your support units (morats, AT guns, MG, etc), maybe you should have put them in cover, defended them with a squad of infantry, or not rely on them at all.
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It would be a shame to have to abandon the matchups of PE versus soviet, which I think is pretty interesting if not entirely balanced, and the future ostheer and brit though...
If no other solutions presented themselves, would a third, somewhat bloated option be possible? What if you had 2 different launchers....one that replaces pe and brit, and one that replaces american and wehr? I'm sure the complications are endless, and I suppose that all players would have to be using the same version at the same time to play...so I admit, it's a headache...but it would allow people to play any existing faction against the Eastern front factions...though not all combinations for multiplayer would be possible.
By the way, I thought no retreat universally might be a little extreme, but I certainly thought that it was a good mechanic and that conscripts and commisars not having retreat was a good idea...if prop war works now, then I have no problems with that at all, but the no recrew is a problem still.
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Great news!!! ;D. You could blow the weapon if the crew dies... but what about an ability to "booby trap" enemies heavy armament or emplacements?
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you should definately keep the original factions. Having variety is more fun.
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Why does everyone want to recrew?? ...
Well, maybe its today's tendency :P. In either case, before soviets i usually played with PE so, recrew or not, i don't care about that ;D.
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Guys, the poll is a little bit unclear because answers a) and d) are intertwined.
a) yes to recrew + yes to ret & vet
d) no to recrew + yes to ret & vet
Therefore, all who voted a) or d) are in favour of retreat & veterancy.
Similar goes for a) and c)
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Update
The Wehrmacht Terror Propaganda doctrine ability is now working properly against the Russians - forcing a retreat.
1 less reason to add in retreat ;)
Awesome. Does this mean that it's now possible to implement retreat for select units? I'd love to see retreat for the more elite units, though I think conscripts should be left alone.
I honestly don't think recrewing is that big a deal for soviets. After all, they have bigger crews then any other army to compensate, I think that's a good compromise. They lose the ability to steal enemy heavy weapons as well as keep their own, but they are extremely hard to decrew.
As for the Ostheer and weapon crewing/decrewing.... well, let's worry about that when they're gonna be added. Unless they ARE gonna be added in the near future....
GIVE US SOME INFO DARNIT. It's been over 2 weeks since the fake april fools update, we need real news!
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Relic really should release a patch that fixes this issue. I mean come on.
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Disable the ToV units, keep everything the same.
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Update
The Wehrmacht Terror Propaganda doctrine ability is now working properly against the Russians - forcing a retreat.
1 less reason to add in retreat ;)
Dragon, is that in the current version or in the upcoming 1.05 patch? I've not been playing terror doctrine against russia...so this will be a welcome fix!
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The Wehrmacht Terror Propaganda doctrine ability is now working properly against the Russians - forcing a retreat.
Its for the 1.05 patch that WILL NOT feature any changes we'll make based on the polls.
Poll results will be reflected in the 1.06 patch which will take a similar time to 1.05 to complete. So in the mean time you still have a more fixed better balance version to play with in the form of 1.05
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fix some mimor problems and
LEAVE IT AS IT IS.
Two lines stating just what you've already voted, without discussion content isn't going to help nor convince. Please don't spam the thread if you're not going to add discussion content. Thanks
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I voted yes. If soviets and ostheer can be played the way vcoh is, I'll install this mod again. Good luck.
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Awesome. Does this mean that it's now possible to implement retreat for select units? I'd love to see retreat for the more elite units, though I think conscripts should be left alone.
Means, for example, retreat could be given as part of veterancy.
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Awesome. Does this mean that it's now possible to implement retreat for select units? I'd love to see retreat for the more elite units, though I think conscripts should be left alone.
Means, for example, retreat could be given as part of veterancy.
I love this idea. Where would you place it, like the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd vet? And how would Soviet veterancy work, just be combat based (not purchased like Wehr)? Or maybe how long they've spent on the battlefield?
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If we do decide to link the Retreat Ability with Veterancy, it will be the 1st Vet which unlocks.
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Awesome. Does this mean that it's now possible to implement retreat for select units? I'd love to see retreat for the more elite units, though I think conscripts should be left alone.
Means, for example, retreat could be given as part of veterancy.
I love this idea. Where would you place it, like the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd vet? And how would Soviet veterancy work, just be combat based (not purchased like Wehr)? Or maybe how long they've spent on the battlefield?
mmm possibly a subject for another thread? just to stay on target with this one :)
As mentioned early by Paciat - that addition of a whole new faction is what made this mod so incredibly interesting.
How quickly could you (the devs) implement the "Sov/oH instead of OF" mod?
If you can do it fairly rough and ready then give it a shot, release it asap and gauge the reaction form there.
Basically - you can only resolve this issue by actually DOING that mod. Only then can ppl, and yourselves, look at it critically and see if it works. Trying to second guess before the mod is released weather it will be worthwhile just isnt going to work.
Youll keep going in thought circles.
So:
Make a rough, 'simple ' mod, say only to T1, and lets go from there.
Youve done such good work with EF that we will all certainly give it a shot.
HDLK
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Despite the fact that Soviets don't have t1 weapon crews currently...
I still think removing Brits and PE is a bad idea. If you are going to remove anything, let it be the roo. I'm sure loads of GR players will download if you just do that.
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If you are going to remove anything, let it be the roo. I'm sure loads of GR players will download if you just do that.
Thats are bad suggestions, keep them for you. The units stay as they are, or the whole army will be removed. I would like to keep the army...
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Interesting how much more one-sided the GR poll is: http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=605876&st=0 (http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=605876&st=0)
Now, I don't want to sound elitist or like a forum fanboi or whatever, but GR has a MUCH bigger community than this one, and I hope you guys will try to give the poll there as much credence as the one here.
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Interesting how much more one-sided the GR poll is: http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=605876&st=0 (http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=605876&st=0)
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I think it is because lots of (IMO the better ones) players stopped playing EF because of no-vet, no recrew and no ranking + initial imbalance of mod. If those would be improved some of them may return to play EF...
Ranking is important mostly for good players because they play to increase their virtual status. If this is not possible for them, they just don't play. And the situation now is quite imbalanced also in ranking - if loosing as Soviet nothing happen, if as Wehr&PE rank is decreased.
Veterancy is important for players who are used to preserve units - again the good players. Maybe this comes with a reason to retreat but it could be considered as Soviet attribute so this I think for good players was the smallest problem.
And why is recrewing important I already explained in previous post.
Because I didn't find any answer to some question which was posted before I ask too: if you replace the Brit with Soviet, how the ranking will be considered - as new ranking or all values from Brit ranks would be copied? If player then starts original CoH, not mod, would the Brit ranking altered with Soviet games?
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Registered here just to post, so here it goes.
My opinion is that if Relic is unable to apply a patch allowing for more than four fully-functioning factions - then you should keep the factions in as less than fully functioning, despite how much work you've put into them.
My reasoning behind this is that a mod should add from a game, not remove from it. While it is true that you would gain something from this mod, you would also never see the panzer elite battling the soviet union in this mod if factions were removed, as an example.
I'm a bit confused as to why it is impossible to just let people decide which factions they wish to have as their four individually instead of making everybody lose certain factions when playing eastern front. Hopefully Relic can address this issue...their interview was quite encouraging.
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I'll quote what I said on RelicNews on 18/04 -
Relics community manager said they would 'investigate (our problems) in the future', we have set up a prioritized list for them, so any faction removal may only be temporary if Relic kindly fix our Recrew/Automatch/Ranking issues.
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If we do decide to link the Retreat Ability with Veterancy, it will be the 1st Vet which unlocks.
That is a great idea! :D
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I just played BotB mod, and I noticed it's only 1 faction on each side (latest version for 2.601). So if you guys decide to remove Brits, I would also highly encourage removing the Americans. I just figure if you're going to remove one of them you might as well get rid of both...
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I'm all for including ret & vet (and removal of Brits), but connecting retreat with 1 vet sounds kinda stupid to me.
I've also been playing botb mod, and one of the things I liked was how you can plant the flag and retreat your units to the flag (like captain with Brits). Maybe you could do this with the Soviets.
Also, I think that in the end (if relic doesn't help), you'll be forced to remove OF factions if you really want to see this mod being played competitevely online. Because competitive online play ain't gonna happen without re-crew, automatch and rankings, at least imo.
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How long will this poll be open?
130 members voted to date
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We'll close it on Sunday, April 25, 2010, 01:55:10 PM
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I might add, if we remove BRITISH and replace them with SOVIETS -> to play SOVIETS you will be required to own either OPPOSING FRONTS or TALES OF VALOR.
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So you have to remove all factions and use the first coh as a basic for the mod. Than you have only 2 factions, ostheer and soviets, but everybody can play it
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Not true. There some people with only OF who can only play as the Brits and the PE. So modding the original only would stop those people from playing. (Not me, I have only original)
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Oh,that would suck for people who only have the first COH to not play the EF just because people want to recrew and you had to remove the British and PE so the soviet players can recrew their weapons. I don't see why everyone wants to recrew their weapons. I don't like the AT guns or the mortars, so i don't use them.
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I don't see why everyone wants to recrew their weapons. I don't like the AT guns or the mortars, so i don't use them.
Priceless...
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From now until the end of the poll (26th April), you can remove your current vote (eg. if you vote wrong) change vote again.
Also changed the text of the options to make it clearer.
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Hi,
Nearly 40% have voted for the removal of the factions ,around 55% for keeping them & 5% on the bridge, Both have their point of veiw .....
Was wondering, How would the Dev team strike a balance with this Varied opinion ?..,Also , Would like to know how important is ranking and online play in the decision making ...
Regards
Funnyme
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:) in one of my first comments to this topic I predicted this would be tough one. 40% vs 55% looks like more players wants to keep Relic factions but you have to consider one fact too: participating on this forum and still playing the EF the small community of players who remained are quite ok with things how they are. Most of the players who left, left because they wanted something which EF hadn't at that time and it wasn't keeping the Relic factions - bacuse the mod had them. It was other things which were reasons to left... and most of that players continue to play CoH and do not go here on forum regularly to check such important polls like this one.
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The poll won't solely decide anything. A large number of factors will govern our final decision. At the end of the day, beyond the discussion and the voting, it boils down to the Lead Developers to make decisions on such major ideas as removing entire factions. Hopefully we won't ever need to reach such drastic conclusions if our recent discussions with certain people amount to anything.
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I just feel the need to add that this mod does not exactly have a huge community, so I question the wisdom of any actions that may potentially divide that community...
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We've had tens of thousands of downloads and 750 people logging on the day of our release and we crashed relics servers... I'd say that's pretty big community which we're aiming to get back with all the changes as we did let them down at that point.
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Poll ends in few ours. 140 voted till now.
Did your (Devs) expections comply with the results?
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78 votes for keeping the relic factions.
94 votes for adding retreat and veterancy.
53 votes for removing the relic factions.
37 votes for not adding retreat and veterancy.
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I voted:
;) Yes) I agree with removing the Relic factions, as well as adding vet and retreat
This mod is so good, I feel it deserves no restrictions.
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Other then the restrictions of which armies you can play?
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my two cents
I'm fine with the way things are. I don't want brits or PE removed. I like the way soviets play its fun and interesting.
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78 votes for keeping the relic factions.
94 votes for adding retreat and veterancy.
53 votes for removing the relic factions.
37 votes for not adding retreat and veterancy.
nice.....lie?
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78 votes for keeping the relic factions.
94 votes for adding retreat and veterancy.
53 votes for removing the relic factions.
37 votes for not adding retreat and veterancy.
nice.....lie?
Not a lie, he did his math differently.
He added up the ones that say "Keep Relic Factions" (Total of 2)
Then did the same for the others ;)
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Right. This poll was a little convoluted since it clustered all the options into pairs, so I simplified it. How many votes to keep the factions, how many not to, and so on.
It provides a clearer picture of the results. Roughly 2/3 of the people who voted for factions voted to keep them, so keeping factions is the winner in that part of the poll. As for retreat and veterancy, a very large majority voted to add them, 4/5.
These results are echoed by option 4, which recieved the most votes out of the entire poll.
The people have spoken. The poll says add retreat and veterancy but keep existing factions.
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A very good analysis of the stats. Hectic discussion in the private developer forums ensues...
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10 dollar says it's all like: "This could take months"
"I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE"
"THE NEXT PATCH MAY BE YEARS FROM NOW"
"WE GOT CRICKETS!!!"
*All other mods*
"...?"
*A cricket is on the wall.*
XD
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Already voted, but regarding retreat: would it be practical to allow it only for later-tier units?
Sure, Order No. 227 was in effect the first year of the war, but as the Soviets picked up momentum the whole "no retreat" thing was quietly dropped. So might it make sense that early squads (i.e., vanilla Conscripts, Ingenery, the Command Squad) can't retreat until the later-tier units are unlocked? After that anyone can retreat. I like the no-retreat thing early on as it really gives a different flavor for the Sovs, but later in the battle it starts hurting. If you want a justification you can say that tiering up represents Zhukov and the rest of the generals taking effective control instead of Moscow.
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Soldier: "Comrade Commisar, we cannot punch through this defensive line!"
Commisar: "Nonsense Comrade, we are under strict orders not to retreat!"
Soldier: "But do the orders say anything about 'advancing backwards'?"
Commisar: "... ALL UNITS ADVANCE BACKWARDS!"
lol.
I'd be happy with strelky gaining the ability to retreat. Just leave conscripts as they are. Guards don't really need retreat since they're immune to suppression.
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Jack Bauer never retreats...He just shoots in the other direction.
(For all die hard 24 fans out there ;))
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oh my god , giving the russians retreat is terrible idea! why remove it ? the recrewing maybe yeah thats understandable, but the russians are all " CHARGE YEAHHHHH " and didnt retreat in most cases , i think that is unique shouldnt be taken away.
And on that though , i do think Russians should be able to recrew , it would work if sayyy , the gaurds and command squad can recrew , or something like that , i mean the gaurds can already pick up axis weapons cant they? It isnt neccessary for veterancy either , buying the upgrades is far better.
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Picking up weapons and recrewing weapons are two different things entirely from a coding pov. All units can pick up weapons, you can give conscripts Shrecks and LMG42's if you so wish.
Soviets would be balanced to incorporate retreat, its a core game element that some people cannot bare to be without, I haven't exactly missed it but then my fighting style is quite sloppy.
Right now, the AI in 1.05 can retreat (its a bug brought on by the Prop-war 'fix') and they are no more difficult to fight aginst with retreat than they are without retreat... actually, the fact the Soviets are basically FORCED to fight to the death is what made them a pain in the ass to fight against in the first place
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Hey, what will the Soviets also get, since you are adding retreat? And What makes everyone think it will bring all the old fans back?
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I think that the theme is not only about the retreat of the Soviet Union
but what ostheer and removing the original factions
How about remove the Americans and the Wehrmacht, and instead add them to the Soviet Union and ostheer but assuring leaving the British and Panzer Elite
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And What makes everyone think it will bring all the old fans back?
I can tell you what it would bring back if we didn't change things...nothing.
The more you fix something more likely it to be liked by the wider audience that rejected it due to these flaws in the first place.
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I don't think you should retreat, but if you do choose to, you have to get rid of a few things. No, alot of things. First of all theres like, I think, 5-9 things (depending on doctine) that makes the sovs fire up and deny suppression. Your going to have to put that down to 2-3 things because then they would all be useless. Also you have to rise the cost because before the sovs could retreat, it was a very low chance to get the conscripts back to the base. But now since they run like hell to the base, you have a way higher chance and people are going to get a great fighing force in less then 30 seconds.
I could be wrong, lets see how it turns out.
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we won't just add reterat and vet and leave everything else as is...of course not! We'll be making (or should I say unmaking) alot of stuff we put in place just so we can make the no retreat sort of viable...
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The people have spoken. The poll says add retreat and veterancy but keep existing factions.
Topic Closed.
Not to mention the majority of discussions in this part of the forum are completely and utterly outdated, repeating the existence of long lost issues and balance instabilities.
Posting about balance problems in 1.04 days before the release of 1.05 is nothing more than a waste of your own time.
P.S. This is targeted at no one in particular and is simply my own opinion.