I agree with Paciat.
Veterancy 3 should switch unit to next level infantry.
Conscript vet3 become Strelsky vet 0, and so forth :)
The Soviets would have to buy vet like the Wehrmacht, but instead of buying it for a group of units like Infantry, Tanks, etc. like the Wehrmacht does it would buy vet for a specific unit type like Conscripts, Mortar teams, T-34 and so forth...
Whats the point of having vet 3 Constripts. They would be like non upgraded vet 0 Strelky.
You pay 50MP to train Constripts so they become regural rifleman. Thats Soviet vet.
Also whats the point of having 3 upgrades to T-70 and another 3 upgrades to T-90? Noone would use it anyway.
Players would spam 1 unit even more than they do now. Every game would look the same. Soviets get cheap vet 3 (1 unit would be cheaper than Wehrmacht group vet) for 1 type of infantry and 1 type of tank and spam units that are better trained than germans.
What would Soviets need ammo for if Constript rifle upgrade was gained from vet?
Who said they would be like non upgraded strelky? only the devs know the changes that will be made in 1.1...So you want to change everything so Soviets will be less unique and more similar to germans...
And besides, the idea I was pushing for is that conscripts would be the main cappers of the Soveits and vet would enhance not only their combat but also their capping abilities, so the 3-5 squds of conscripts don't become obsolete once strelky hit the field. The strelky vet would be the backbone of the infantry forces throughout the game and the guards would be the expensive elites hock infantry.
Also whats the point of having 3 upgrades to T-70 and another 3 upgrades to T-90? Noone would use it anyway.
What would Soviets need ammo for if Constript rifle upgrade was gained from vet?
Who said they would be like non upgraded strelky? only the devs know the changes that will be made in 1.1...So you want to change everything so Soviets will be less unique and more similar to germans...
And besides, the idea I was pushing for is that conscripts would be the main cappers of the Soveits and vet would enhance not only their combat but also their capping abilities, so the 3-5 squds of conscripts don't become obsolete once strelky hit the field. The strelky vet would be the backbone of the infantry forces throughout the game and the guards would be the expensive elites hock infantry.
...and you dindnt anwser:Also whats the point of having 3 upgrades to T-70 and another 3 upgrades to T-90? Noone would use it anyway.
What would Soviets need ammo for if Constript rifle upgrade was gained from vet?
Well yeah, look how uniqe the Soviets are now:Whats great about not being original?
No retreat, no vet, no unit preservation. Three CORE MECHANIKS of COH thrown out the window.
Teching with munitions, free abilities. Have you ever asked yourself why no good COH players play this mod? Because it lacks everything that made COH great in the first place.
As for t-90s and t-70s. No one with half a brain would waste fuel to buy vet for both of them in the same 1v1 game. Thats the whole point. You can CHOOSE which units to upgrade. You buy the vet on the units that you are using.Noone would even tech up 1 of these tanks to vet 2.
Soviets are about mass infantry, medium, heavy tanks and artillery. Thats how it was in WWII and thats how everybody likes it.
Also this IS the major problem of the faction.... All you do is spam units without using core machanics/tactics of COH and hope you don't run out of resources before your opponent gives up. Its dull, inimaginative, boring and broken.Its just like spamming vet 3 Panthers or Panther battlegroups...
I would also like to add that 'top competitive players' never really play any mod whatsoever...its simply not part of their 'nature' to play anything other than the basic game regardless of how good a mod may be. We could balance the soviets better than any relic faction, yet I guarantee you they still won't play it.
Also this IS the major problem of the faction.... All you do is spam units without using core machanics/tactics of COH and hope you don't run out of resources before your opponent gives up. Its dull, inimaginative, boring and broken.Its just like spamming vet 3 Panthers or Panther battlegroups...
But sure, there sould be a IS-2 unlock upgrade or KV85(Churchill armor)->IS-2 upgrade.
If any tank should be spammed by Soviets it should be T-34.
Sure, you can say that Soviets are unbalanced (as much as British) but most of the forum dosnt want mirror games.
When I first saw EF on youtube it was still in development stage. I saw 3 types of infantry (like wehrmacht), sniper team (OP sniper), Soviet 57mm, T-34 (sherman), T-70 (M-8), T-90 (Puma), IS-2 (Panther) and Soviet infantry gaining vet like US troops.
I asked myself "why do I need this OP mode that will change my original game (I didnt know that it will be an add on) if I have all of that in the vanilla COH?"
Im talking about Soviets. Panthers like IS-2 "insanely expensive". Panther battlegroups are "insanely cheap". A vet 1 Panther will defeat an IS-2, AT granades arent too usefull on moving tanks, ZIS-2 guns arent as good as US 57mm and can be retaken, Soviets have no Elite AT infantry. This makes Panther spamming a good tactic if they will work with units that you build earlier in the game.For your information, no one spams vet3 panthers. Panthers are insanely expensive and preform way below par against infantry. One panther is a huge investment and would only pay off if your opponent is spamming shermans, which doesn't happen because the ninja Pak supported by shreks obliterates US armor. Therefore, a panther or, heaven forbid, more than one is a bad, bad, bad investment. Buying vet for your panthers is even worse. If you are planning this kind of strategy in a 1v1 you might as well not even start the game even if you are playing against a semi-braindead opponent.Also this IS the major problem of the faction.... All you do is spam units without using core machanics/tactics of COH and hope you don't run out of resources before your opponent gives up. Its dull, inimaginative, boring and broken.Its just like spamming vet 3 Panthers or Panther battlegroups...
But sure, there sould be a IS-2 unlock upgrade or KV85(Churchill armor)->IS-2 upgrade.
If any tank should be spammed by Soviets it should be T-34.
As I said that was my first look at a Soviet fraction.QuoteSure, you can say that Soviets are unbalanced (as much as British) but most of the forum dosnt want mirror games.
...
When I first saw EF on youtube it was still in development stage. I saw 3 types of infantry (like wehrmacht), sniper team (OP sniper), Soviet 57mm, T-34 (sherman), T-70 (M-8), T-90 (Puma), IS-2 (Panther) and Soviet infantry gaining vet like US troops.
I asked myself "why do I need this OP mode that will change my original game (I didnt know that it will be an add on) if I have all of that in the vanilla COH?"
Just because there are 3 types of infantry doesn't mean they are the exact same as their Wehr counterparts. For example, MP40 upgraded Volks become excellent flankers or counter-flankers and scale well into the mid-late game. Conscripts are cannon fodder even with the upgrade. Strelky don't have any AT unlike the grens which are devastating against alied tanks. Guards are tough, versatile baddasses, but don't have the short range anti-infantry punch that the Knight's Cross have. Calling the T-34 a Sherman clone is unfair, as the T-34 falls into the same "medium tank" category as the Sherman, Panzer 4 and Cromwell. Almost every faction has their respective medium tank and the only faction that doesn't have one is the PE (which is why they are considered underpowered, as they lack a meat shield unit).The T-90 is not a Puma. Not even remotely simmilar to a Puma. First off, the T-90 is immune to small arms fire, and, more importantly, the T-90 has suppression, something the puma does not and therefore fills a support role on the battlefield, while the puma is a shock unit. The Panther and the IS-2 are also different. Just because they are heavy tanks doesn't make them the same. First off, the Panther is one of the fastest tanks in the game, the IS-2 is very slow. The panther performs badly against infantry, while the IS-2 is excellent against both armour and infantry.
With all due respect, your understanding of COH and even your beloved Soviet faction if very shallow and I advise you gain some experience before poking your eyes into balance discussions. Don't take this personaly ;)
One panther is a huge investment and would only pay off if your opponent is spamming shermans, which doesn't happen because the ninja Pak supported by shreks obliterates US armor. Therefore, a panther or, heaven forbid, more than one is a bad, bad, bad investment.
The panther performs badly against infantry,
Calling the T-34 a Sherman clone is unfair, as the T-34 falls into the same "medium tank" category as the Sherman
The T-90 is not a Puma.
First off, the T-90 is immune to small arms fire, and, more importantly, the T-90 has suppression, something the puma does not and therefore fills a support role on the battlefield, while the puma is a shock unit.
The two tanks are LITERALLY clones. The T-34 was reskined and was given a bit extra damage. They have the same armor type. Same effect from Paks/Panthers/Tigers/Panzers.
Alas, plz get back to the topic which is..VET
No sir, I think YOU are wrong.
Panthers are NOT some of the fastest tanks in the game. If anything, they are a mediocre-borderline slow.QuoteOne panther is a huge investment and would only pay off if your opponent is spamming shermans, which doesn't happen because the ninja Pak supported by shreks obliterates US armor. Therefore, a panther or, heaven forbid, more than one is a bad, bad, bad investment.QuoteThe panther performs badly against infantry,
Two statements that are very Wrong.
Okay, sure. The panthers cost a nice heap of manpower and fuel, not to mention the added Vet and Pop Cap.
Making your tanks Vet 3 solves infantry problems with 2-3 MGS on your tanks. VERY worth it.
Armor Skirts have saved my Panzers and panthers from Rangers countless times.
And saying the Panther isn't good against infantry is like saying that the PaK can't kill a Sherman.
Panthers have a crush ability, and when in Vet 2-3, they have their gunners.
Blitzkrieg Assault enables the tanks to reach high speeds and leave infantry under it's tracks.
It's MGS can ALSO suppress infantry.
Not to mention, if you hold a high amount of territory in a large field or long game, 2 or 3 Panthers is enough to destroy your enemy.
Group them together or send 1 down the middle and the 2 on the flanks.QuoteCalling the T-34 a Sherman clone is unfair, as the T-34 falls into the same "medium tank" category as the Sherman
The two tanks are LITERALLY clones. The T-34 was reskined and was given a bit extra damage. They have the same armor type. Same effect from Paks/Panthers/Tigers/Panzers.QuoteThe T-90 is not a Puma.
That is a true statement.
But...QuoteFirst off, the T-90 is immune to small arms fire, and, more importantly, the T-90 has suppression, something the puma does not and therefore fills a support role on the battlefield, while the puma is a shock unit.
Using the two as a COMPARISON is a mistake.
The T-90 is Anti Infantry based. I assume when you say Puma you mean 50mm AT upgrade. In this case, NOT useful against a Puma, which is more similar to a T-70.
In the anti-Infantry sense, they are VERY alike. You need to look into Vetting with the Wehr. MGs from Vetting can SUPPRESS. LOOK INTO IT.
I am in defense of Paciat here. His answers make more sense than yours.
Panther: Max Speed - 5.2, Acceleration - 2.5It dosnt outclass a vet 1 Sherman with 1.25 speed bonus (Wehrmaht Panther)
Panzer 4: Max Speed - 5, Acceleration - 1.2
Sherman: Max Speed - 5.2, Acceleration - 1.6
Cromwell: Max Speed - 5, Acceleration - 2.2
As you can see, the Panther, being a heavy tank. outmatches every single medium tank in vCoH
Veterancy should be earned not purchased, the whole buy veterenacy of Wehrmacht is wrong IMO. I like to play Wehrmacht much but it's wrong from fundamental, because it encourages camping play and causes unbalanced late gameI was allways scared to say something bad about Wehrmacht - the favorite fraction of most players.
Also vet 3 Sherman/76 (1,25 speed and dmg bonus 1,5 penetration bonus) can be compared to T-34/85.
87,5dmgx1,25=109.375 - like a T-34
The higher T-34 76 and 85 penetration stats are balanced by Shermans vet2 1,5 penetration bonus.