Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Seeme on May 22, 2010, 10:29:47 PM
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I love everything about this mod but one thing-the Conscripts.
Why did you have to add pop to them? There useless now!Just spend 500 mp and you get better trained, less pop cap streaky vs 200mp less trained higher popcap Conscripts.
There about useless now...
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0 pop, cheap as chips conscripts were the bane of early game. Too many people simply spammed them and forgo even upgrading them or buying strelkies saving resources for tanks etc...which was crap. The spamming was just ridicilous in team games.
What the conscripts now do...is they give you a limited amout of cheap throwaway units to use from early to late game without investing too much(which no other army really has). They can cap fast...hold buildings,flank,harass etc...but they certainly won't ever make up the bulk of your army
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Thank!
But I think 8 is too much- I would put it to 4 becuase theres 4 men carrying rifles. When you get NVKD Conscripts, they should be 8.
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Wait what?? Conscripts pop 8? That's not supposed to be the case....wasn't on the changelog...and I never recommended that...i think it may have been an oversight or a ...'stealth change'
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Confirmed, they are 8 pop. Makes them completely useless atm.
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They really are useless at 8 pop, especially now that it's so easy to get Strelky. NKVDs are alright though.
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Compared to red banner? Still useless and they will continue to be until a patch fixes it.
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8 pop for those untrained ba**ards :o lol
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This is a job for the next patch. :)
Only constripts with rifles should cost pop.
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This is a job for the next patch. :)
Only constripts with rifles should cost pop.
from my view popcap should b 2 not 4 in the next patch 8)
de scuk anywaz ::)
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I think giving them a pop cap was a good thing to do because I had never upgraded my conscripts because I could build as many as I wanted at any point in the game.
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I think giving them a pop cap was a good thing to do because I had never upgraded my conscripts because I could build as many as I wanted at any point in the game.
I always upgrade conscript, because of the fabulous commisar who lead them!
Now commisar have a PPSH and new skin, I found him terribly charismatic and I upgrade my conscript as soon as I can!0 pop, cheap as chips conscripts were the bane of early game. Too many people simply spammed them and forgo even upgrading them or buying strelkies saving resources for tanks etc...which was crap. The spamming was just ridicilous in team games.
What the conscripts now do...is they give you a limited amout of cheap throwaway units to use from early to late game without investing too much(which no other army really has). They can cap fast...hold buildings,flank,harass etc...but they certainly won't ever make up the bulk of your army
I think thats the true purpose of conscript and upgraded conscript, and you have make it so fun! As I always upgrade them the population cap problem isn't for me, but it would be cool if unupgraded conscript have 4 pop cap.
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The coward has spoken. They hate the new Conscripts. Can you atleast lower the cost?
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Since it was unintended I think it will be changed in the next patch.
About the hard cap, I think the reason Conscripts were spamed last patch in the early game was due to lag of alternatives and not because you could. I think a better way to deal with a problem like this is to give the player alternatives and not to hard cap the unit.
But since I try to use so few Conscripts as possible I don't think that the hard cap will effect my game that much.
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Oh trust me, I love that conscripts aren't spammed anymore but they're still useless now. :P
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Conscripts are a likely candidate for a rebalance in the next minor patch. Any suggestions?
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Conscripts are a likely candidate for a rebalance in the next minor patch. Any suggestions?
Yes, reduce the capping speed to 1.25 the amount off conscripts combined with the capping speed is too much.
Lower reinforcement cost, as it is now I focus fire on the conscripts because they relatively expensive to reinforce. It just seems wrong.
Increase the cost of the Mustering Tent to 200MP 20 Fuel ad the cost of the Soviet Support Barracks to 300 MP and 20 Fuel and give the Player 20 extra fuel in the start of the game.
So you can't build Strelkys as your third unit and Conscripts ones again becomes the infantry you will have to relie on in the beginning of the game.
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I say put the pop to 4 because theres 4 men carrying rifles. Then, put them to 6 or 7 when they are NVKD. I don't know if this already happend, but with NVKD they should be better because the commander. Then, you should rise streaky cost to 280mp because then it would be a good distance from the 200mp Conscripts have so they would be "cheap troops".
Anything bad? I like it :)
Increase the cost of the Mustering Tent to 200MP 20 Fuel ad the cost of the Soviet Support Barracks to 300 MP and 20 Fuel and give the Player 20 extra fuel in the start of the game.
I don't like that. Theres nothing wrong with the fuel system.
The support barracks already have fuel to them so why change it? Besides, why do you need fuel to put up a tent?
Yes, reduce the capping speed to 1.25 the amount off conscripts combined with the capping speed is too much
No, there suppose to cap fast because there 8 men! Its also another thing they are known for.
Lower reinforcement cost, as it is now I focus fire on the conscripts because they relatively expensive to reinforce. It just seems wrong
Yes, this I agree. IF they are cheap, they shouldn't be this much.
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The thing is, if you rely on conscripts too much on early game it causes a big problem alter on cause(due to technical issue) they can't be upgraded on the field like say rifles getting Bars. Meaning the units that sustained you early all become totally obsolete and you have to 'throw them away' to make room for new units.
The only way to make the conscripts to remain an early mainstay is to make the NKVD upgrade available alot sooner whilist making the Strelky available a little bit later
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My post is what you wanna read, Zerstörer
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Then, you should rise streaky cost to 280mp because then it would be a good distance from the 200mp Conscripts have so they would be "cheap troops".
I agree
Increase the cost of the Mustering Tent to 200MP 20 Fuel ad the cost of the Soviet Support Barracks to 300 MP and 20 Fuel and give the Player 20 extra fuel in the start of the game.
I don't like that. Theres nothing wrong with the fuel system.
http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?s=6f59a6b473c5007a33f26d074980e533&game=25&show=comment_submit&id=126106 (http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?s=6f59a6b473c5007a33f26d074980e533&game=25&show=comment_submit&id=126106)
I think this replay shows that their is something wrong with the tech system.
No, there suppose to cap fast because there 8 men! Its also another thing they are known for.
Well USSR is still the strongest faction in the game because they can push their opponent of the map so easy and than out tech him or her. I think that reducing the capping power is better than nerfing the already weak units.
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Conscripts aren't even good cannon fodder these days :P , If anything maybe 0 cap 5 limit, 4 pop is preferrable.
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I've voted for 4 pop, conscript have only 4 rifle!
When they are upgraded, make them cost 8pop.
But its a good way to diversify the system : as I've already said you can have cheap and weak infantry, or stronger but expensive strelky. People were spamming conscript in 1.04 because they have no other choice!
Dont make the strelky available later, it would kill the early soviet game
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My vote(if matter)... is => 2 pop cap for conscripts and 4 for NKVD.
Also...maybe....can be good if strekely are available just after upgrading the conscripts.
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My vote(if matter)... is => 2 pop cap for conscripts and 4 for NKVD.
Also...maybe....can be good if strekely are available just after upgrading the conscripts.
I agree with the pop cap
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I think if we follow the next idea,we can reproduce red wave assault very close to reality/history.
The idea is to halve the health of conscripts/NKVD,but also lower the cost at half.Their damage/accuracy must remain how it is.Also is necessary to make them very very bad at capturing strategic points.
In this way,one or two units will be with little use ,but in great numbers,their firepower and molotov cocktails can be devastating...with little cost...
Of course...one mg will make them to die like flies....
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I think if we follow the next idea,we can reproduce red wave assault very close to reality/history.
The idea is to halve the health of conscripts/NKVD,but also lower the cost at half.Their damage/accuracy must remain how it is.Also is necessary to make them very very bad at capturing strategic points.
In this way,one or two units will be with little use ,but in great numbers,their firepower and molotov cocktails can be devastating...with little cost...
Of course...one mg will make them to die like flies....
No offense, but that's stupid. No one likes the conscript spam and that's why they were given a pop cap.
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I've voted for 4 pop, conscript have only 4 rifle!
When they are upgraded, make them cost 8pop.
But its a good way to diversify the system : as I've already said you can have cheap and weak infantry, or stronger but expensive strelky. People were spamming conscript in 1.04 because they have no other choice!
Dont make the strelky available later, it would kill the early soviet game
I disagree with this. Now when it does not cost a million muni to buy a upgrade it is important what your are going to buy, like US you don't have many options early on, but it is important what you buy as your first and second upgrade, so you need to adapt.
If you have Strelky and conscripts available from the start of the game, you will have to pick one before the first battle and than stick with that. (It would be stupid to pay 200 extra MP and than buy cheaper units.) This would result in one of the options being the better one (unless the balance is perfect which is almost impossible.) So people would buy them. I would rather have them come out a little later, so it becomes a option you can choose when you have seen what your opponent does.
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I think they should be hard capped at around 3 - 4 and cost 0 population.
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The 2 pop, 4 pop NKVD seems like a good idea to me. Its enough to discourage spamming without making them unusable.
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I think there's three viable options.
Reduce the population of each squad to 4 or less to give leeway to early game progress (I rate 8/10 easy to implement and popular in poll)
Or
Reduce the cost of a conscript squad to 150 Mp or less in order to make them an alternative unit to the Strekly spam (which in the few games i've managed to play they are pretty useful). (I rate 7/10 potentially risky but still easy to implement)
Or
Adapt the unit causing the problems which would be the Strekly by i think adding a munitions cost of say 20-40 Per squad. Which would slow down early spamming and make possible the use of conscripts until they're no longer needed later. (I rate 6/10 again potentially risky or in a map high in munitions not worthwhile)
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My vote(if matter)... is => 2 pop cap for conscripts and 4 for NKVD.
Also...maybe....can be good if strekely are available just after upgrading the conscripts.
+1
Personally I'd rather have 0 pop cost for the unupgraded conscripts but 2 pop cap is good to discourage excessive spamming (even if I love massing them like in the EF trailer). And seriously reducing their capping speed should solve the issue of the Soviets taking the entire map way too soon.
Is there a way to also make them pass the rifles to the unarmed conscripts once they die?
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yea, once I only had 3 unarmed people left.
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Hmm... i tend to think that the fast capping is a trade mark of the conscripts. This way you still build them later in the game and mix them with the rest of your army so they can cap the posts while the rest of your army keeps moving.
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I think their role must be JUST for combat and nothing else.
Also why this untrained ''soldiers''(conscripts) cost more than engineers ...?...because engineers are trained for many purposes => witch mean allot of money pumped in their asses.
Stallin has sent the conscripts in battle with the only purpose to absorb bullets from the enemy until the real soldiers come close.They was the living shield and nothing more.
Conscripts was gathered from the occupied countries from USSR,and Stalin's plan was to exterminate population from this countries(and bringing russians there) ,and has done that before the war=>in russian extermination camps,or simply ordering to his "brave''(sh*t) army to kill x number of population per month shooting,hanging or starving them.
The war was just an excuse/cover for killing MILLIONS of people in the attempt to build some kind of idiotic dream of one so called hero named Stalin.
So...conscripts must be the cheapest unit with...approximately 100 cost,very little heath and very bad (or unable) at capturing strategic points.
Arguments against that ?
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I've never heard of foreigners conscript used by stalin... "Concripts" as we see in the game were, historically speaking, used for the defense of Moscow and St-Petersbourg. That's why they were composed of almost exclusively russian guy, pick up in cities, to build defense and stop german forces.
If you opposed very fresh recruit and trained, well-equipped german forces, you have high casualties for conscript...
They weren't used later in the war (except maybe for the defense of Stalingrad).It's a shame that almost everyone think that soviet forces were formed of untrained, unequiped men, and won the war by the simple advantage of number... But thats an other history ;D
I agree conscript must be a cheap unit, and should cost few pop until they are upgraded.
The idea of PSIHOPAT sound good for me: conscript shouldnt be able to capture so fast territories, but if they can't, how the russian player can take them? He only had commander to cap the entire map, since ingeneers are killed very quickly by a simple motorbike, or why not by a fly...
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Mixing armies is the solution
early=>capture territories with engineers and commander and guard them with conscripts
very soon will come strekely who are good for both purpose(combat and capturing points)
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I say make the conscripts cost 4 pop mainly because at the beginning they are only armed with four rifles and there is 8 of them. Once they get the upgrade, then let them cost anywhere from 6 to 8, because now they can use Molotov and they can break suppression.
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My vote(if matter)... is => 2 pop cap for conscripts and 4 for NKVD.
Also...maybe....can be good if strekely are available just after upgrading the conscripts.
+1
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Once there is 50 vote Iwill give the results then a day later I will lock. 8)
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Noone will build constripts if they will have strelky.
The whole point of constripts was that they were early infantry that could be send here and there to stop the cheapest unit in the game - Pioneers from overcapping.
They are like Observation posts (0 pop). You just leave them in a house and germans then need a flamethrower or an AC to kill them before they can cap.
I can use cheaper Soviet engiees that are 4pop and cap allmost as fast + can repair.
Thats why Constripts need to be at 0 or 1 pop.
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But if the conscripts will cost 100 MP you will think twice.
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Wait till the hotfix. We're putting in place a few things to balance the choice a bit more between going for Strelky or upgraded NKVD. The choice should be similar to extended tier1 which you can carry on longer but always eventually becomes obsolete.
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I think that 8 is good although i personaly would prefer about 4 for conscripts and 6 for NKVD
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Is ABSURD !!!
With this pop cap i prefer to take strekely or tanks.
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The most people want it 4 pop for unupgraded Conscripts, but what about NKVD?
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4 or 2 is definetly what they should take up at the start , i mean it took away from how the russian team played really. They are just becoming less unique. The 1.1 patch was good .... EXCEPT for this conscript change . The conscripts should start of as 2 or 4 population , then once upgraded and then built they should be 4 or 6 . They need to be made slightly weaker than they are now also , they can beat a volks squad!
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What it is a delirium... Do you in general know though anything about a soviet army? My grandfather killed under Stalingrad, and I am nasty from this your Hollywood opinion about sew on armies. Every conscript had a rifle and grenades. AT EACH!!!!! They conducted permanent defensive fights, every soldier was able to dig trenches and tarnshei, there was a "PTRD" and machine gun "DP" in every separation. Our troops did not have the tanks, airplanes and cannons, but rifle weapon it was in surplus. I understand, you know our history badly, but it is needed it would be to honour anything or ask acquaintances from Russia. Detachments NKVD were created only in 1942 on approaches to Stalingrad and over they were unstrung the months. Soldiers were rarely shot, and returned back in the parts. Order 227 used only on approaches to Stalingrad, because soldiers did not maintain German pressure and retreated often. When Germans reached to the city, soldiers did not retreat already, but battled to the last man.
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What it is a delirium... Do you in general know though anything about a soviet army? My grandfather killed under Stalingrad, and I am nasty from this your Hollywood opinion about sew on armies. Every conscript had a rifle and grenades. AT EACH!!!!! They conducted permanent defensive fights, every soldier was able to dig trenches and tarnshei, there was a "PTRD" and machine gun "DP" in every separation. Our troops did not have the tanks, airplanes and cannons, but rifle weapon it was in surplus. I understand, you know our history badly, but it is needed it would be to honour anything or ask acquaintances from Russia. Detachments NKVD were created only in 1942 on approaches to Stalingrad and over they were unstrung the months. Soldiers were rarely shot, and returned back in the parts. Order 227 used only on approaches to Stalingrad, because soldiers did not maintain German pressure and retreated often. When Germans reached to the city, soldiers did not retreat already, but battled to the last man.
You have to understand that COH vanilla is obviously inspired by Hollywood movie. Relic wanted it to be a fun game more than an historical accurate game!
EF's dev, who have done a great work, are following this spirit: Ef is a fun game like vanilla COH! For some people, send dozen of half-armed conscript in front of german MG is cool, like have strelky squad lead by a Red Banner bearer, or like have a "you will be shot if you retreat" feature!
Also, I'm sure that people who hate soviet and in particularly russian, love to shoot on hundred russian guys! So why complaining about that? Dev arent going to change everything they have made for years, if most of player are satisfied by this vision of Red Army!
Ef is a "fun-focused" mod, that's it!