Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Suggestions => Ostheer Suggestions => Topic started by: TheVolskinator on July 18, 2010, 06:57:57 AM
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See the attached PDF file. I hope y'all like it, I put a ton of work into this, looking at all the suggestions and comments posted around the forum.
Changelog 8/10/2010:
-Added possible unit quotes.
-More information available in “Other” for each unit.
-Unit health(s) raised in general; avg. unit health (infantry) per man was hovering around 45, too low.
-Lichte Grenadiers now have the “Throw Steilhandedgranate” ability.
-Lichte Grenadiers can now be upgraded with an LMG34 after both the MP38 and G41 upgrades.
-VW Kubelwagen cost raised to 180 Manpower from 170 Manpower.
-Fixed typing error which placed Offensive Vehicle Vet1+Vet2 as Offensive Infantry Vet1+Vet2.
-Removed the “Dragon Incoming!” (Fa223 ‘Drache’ call-in) from the left side of the Infiltration Method tree.
-Replaced the "Dragon Incoming!" ability with "Drain". See PDF for "Drain" stats.
-Added Icons for Manpower, Munitions, and Fuel costs for unit costs, abilities, and upgrades.
-Added more stats such as Target Type, Move Speed, Health for vehicles, Acceleration and Deceleration, Rotation speeds, Crush Types, and Crush_Human True/False.
-Edited Tiger, Panther, Panzer III, StuG III, Panzer II, Ostgrenadier, and Feldpionier build costs.
-Revised costs of most of the doctrinal abilities, and hardcapped the 'Warmonger' (Elefant Call-in) to 3 maximum
Changelog 8/11/2010
-Ostpioneers Hp/man reduced to 55 from 70. Cost increased to 170 Manpower from 150 Manpower. Now low quality troops fit ONLY for base construction.
-Feldpionier Hp/man reduced to 60 from 80. Cost increased to 225 Manpower from 210 Manpower. Upgrade for Schwere Ostpioneers cost boosted to 105 munitions. Should be much less spam-able, easier to kill, and it’s upgrade should show up much later.
-VW Kubelwagen Hp/ man reduced to 150. Cost boosted to 185 Manpower. Might be too expensive for too little bang, but Cephalos seemed PISSED that it was so cheap for so much HP, so…
-Lichte Grenadiers Hp/man reduced to 55 from 75. Now much easier to kill; a sort of glass-cannon infantry. Now balanced to be on par for a 1v1 with Volksgrenadiers and U.S. Riflemen; only effective in a 1v2 fight with Commonwealth Infantry Sections; poor HP=easy kills for Tommie.
-MG34 Hp/man reduced to 75 from 80 for ease-of-kill.
-Ostgrenadier Trupp cost increased to 380 Manpower from 310 Manpower to balance spam-ability. Reinforce cost per man increased to 47 Manpower from 37 Manpower to balance cheap reinforcement. T2 and T3 upgrades costs have been boosted. Hp/man lowered to 85 from 95. Should now be on par to face a 2 vs 1 fight with U.S. Riflemen and 1.5 vs 1 with Commonwealth Infantry Sections. Expense also prevents spam.
-Oberfeldwebel cost increased to 270 Manpower, 15 Munitions, 25 Fuel.
-StuG III fuel cost raised to 40 fuel from 30 fuel.
-Panzer III Hp/man reduced from 410 to 400.
-210mm Nebelwerfer Incindiary Smoke Barrage ability removed due to wanton stupidity and typing error. Incindiary Barrage will NOT be included; too PE-ish.
-210mm Nebelwerfer now has 210mm Smoke barrage ability for 25 Munitions (HUGE cloud of smoke).
-Mobile FlaK88mm Carriage is now only buildable if the Wall of Steel Method is chosen. Removes the PaK 40 from production at the Schwere Ostkriegbarracks but allows the 88’s production at the Schwere Ostkriegfabrik
-Messerschmitt 109E Fighter is now only buildable if the Wall of Steel Method is chosen. Hardcapped at 1.
-Tiger #205 is now only buildable if the Obliteration Method is chosen.
-Ju 87 Stuka is now only buildable if the Obliteration Method is chosen. Hardcapped at 1.
-Added Sd. Kfz. 251/22 Medium AT Halftrack unit. Only buildable if the Infiltration Method is chosen.
-Added Gebirgsjager unit. Replaces Ostgrenadiers. Only buildable if the Infiltration Method is chosen.
Changes should deal with Cephalos' knit picking ;D about too many elite+cheap units; units are now balanced via HP and expense balancing; i.e. no spamming uber-elite Ostgrenadiers...
Changelog 10/2/2010:
-Radio Trupp’s ‘Mark and Fire!’ cooldown increased to 75 seconds from 60 seconds; rapid, free artillery would destroy early game balance.
-Ostgrenadier Trupp reinforce cost/man reduced to 45 Manpower from 47 Manpower; costs the same as Panzer Grenadiers.
-Ostgrenadier ‘Terror Package’ upgrade has the possibility of removal, PLEASE COMMENT ON WHETHER YOU WANT IT KEPT OR REMOVED!
-Panzer III gained the ‘Long-Barreled 50mm’ upgrade: Long-Barreled 50mm (75 Munitions, 30 seconds to upgrade): Replaces the ‘Stubby’ 50mm with a longer, high velocity 50mm, capable of respectable damage against the Sherman or equivalent.
-Tiger #205: Hauptmann Whitmann Voss ‘Marked Shot’ ability cooldown timer increased to 220 seconds from 20 seconds. No 1-shot-kill spams.
-‘Field Triage’ upgrade added to the Headquarters. See PDF for details.
-“Sounds of War” hardcap reduced to 1 from 2. Use cost increased to 300 Manpower, 35 Munitions from 200 Manpower, 35 Munitions.
-Left and Right-side branches for each Method now have names.
-“Wasteland” ability on the Wall of Steel’s LHS had its CP cost raised to 4 from 3. Cooldown was reduced to 300 seconds from 500 seconds.
-Wall of Steel method LHS new ability added: Zealous Homefront. Zealous Homefront (3 CPs): All three of your resource incomes will be boosted (passively) by +10 due to a rebound at Germany’s factories. Also grants a button-ability (Free, lasts 45 seconds, 120 second cooldown) that will replace any completely lost unit with a Lichte Grenadier squad (E.G., 2 Radio Trupp’s and a PIII are destroyed; you get 3 squads in return). Allows for an infantry meatshield, but could occupy valuable population space.
-Schwere Ostpioneers renamed to Feldpioniers.
-Edited for political correctness; all Russian-specific terms were removed; comments now read “…to destroy our enemies” instead of “…to destroy [the Russians]”. Apologies to any offended.
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Very nice concept. I can't see anything wrong with it, but the 'Breack Assaul;t Artillery, should cost 3CP, or be limited to 1 Wespe & 1 PanzerIV Brummbar.
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Your doctrines are very interesting :)
Good work! ;)
PS Elefant kill an IS-2 with only 2 shots? :o
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IMHO,Fa-223 will join the "devs don't like it" ideas, like M81Z or Raketenpanzer....
Mobile flak 88 is tad OP:
you already have one heavy at gun Pak40/75mm, so there is no need of another uber-AT. Morover, you should put it to one of doctrines and limit up two of them (even wehr has Flak88mm as doctrine building permit, and it's not mobile!
Obelfelwebel is OP with his rifle. PE G43 shoot VERY quickly...
Nebelwerfer 42: Gas barrage is... innacurrate historcal. Germans have never used gas against enemies.
I guess that Tiger 205 is doctrinal call in? If not,it's OP.
Sabotage is totally OP, as soviets= unit spam= losing units= producing more units... It would work if, for instance, every unit produced by enemy would have chance 20% to begin with 50% of it's health.
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*Yep. Something that would remove the heir of "HA! SU-152 is invincible and now that I have it, ive won". Now you need to watch out for the Elefant; a nemesis, if you will.
*Fa-223 is already in the game, and you can see it if you play the JointOps mod.
*The two AT cannons are in there to give good counters to the dreaded IS-2 spam, and the 88 is mobile so its not a sitting duck for arty. It's not like that 88 is going to zip around the map like a PaK on Kettenkrad treads...its SLOW, but mobile.
*G43 for the Oberfeldwebel; you can only have one of him, and its intended that he can cause damage on his own: he is a Veteran Sergreant, after all.
*Nebelwerfer Gas Barrage is intended to counter players who place Conscripts and Tank Hunters in trench lines that cut off the entire map. OP? Yes. But the Russian Trench spam is OP too. Yes, the Germans did use Gas in WW1, and on the Eastern Front (in some places) in WW2.
*Tiger Tank 205 will have the cost boosted (due to the tank ace status); it is NON doctrinal but VERY, VERY expensive, and slow. You need the New Mabach upgrade to get anywhere, and it has you stopped for 65 seconds.
*If you look at Sabotage, it costs an insane 5 CPs (same as the KT), and only has a 30% chance of destroying the unit produced. However, your idea is also acceptable. Ill see if i can change it when I edit the PDF.
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Well, I'm not against Fa-223, but remember that it was used mostly in 1945. I'm sure that Lord Rommel would say: " It doesn't represent hole Eastern Front" -as he made uncounted times.
*The two AT cannons are in there to give good counters to the dreaded IS-2 spam, and the 88 is mobile so its not a sitting duck for arty. It's not like that 88 is going to zip around the map like a PaK on Kettenkrad treads...its SLOW, but mobile.
... but it's still 88! It should be at least doctrine unit. Wehr and PE have 88 but only when you choose doctrines. Imagine this: match 3vs3, 3 Ostheer Players, and 88, which should be rare and powerful weapon, is fielded in countless numbers. It would be worse than stupid AI 57mm At guns spam.
Ok, I agree that having one Oberfeldweble balances his sniper abilities. Some kind of Ostheer Sniper Ace... One word comes on my mouth... Call-in?
Nebelwerfer 42 Gas barrage. We are talking about chemical warfare. Hiter was afraid, that his enemies will use gas. That's why he ordered NOT to use gas on the front. Even Eastern.
Tiger Ace must be call-in. Due to it's rarity, and price. Imagine situation as above, but replace 88s with Tigers 205.
Your Ostheer concept is really great, but there is too many uber-units which you allow to build. 88, Tiger 205 and Oberfeldwebel should be call-in, at least doctinal.
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*Other than the 1-shot-kill- "Marked Shot" ability, Tiger 205 is your standard CoH 'Hauptmann Voss' Blitz Tiger, possibly with some changed stats. It's not an "uberpwn cant be killed rapid fire death cannon" unit.
*I changed the Oberfeldwebel, he just fires a more damaging G43. While he's powerful, he will (in my concept) remain non-doctrinal; he's the extra punch to grab when you're not sure if its a Conscript squad or a T-34 around that wall.
*Nebel Gas I'll consider removing, but I ask this: is it a "cool" or "useful" idea to flush the Russians out of their trench spam?
*The 88s I'll hardcap at 2 (or 3?).
*Cephalos, you need to READ the 'Other' on the unit lists! Most of the unit's you've commented on as"spammable are HARDCAPPED; the Nebels at 2, and Tiger 205 at 1! ;D
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*I changed the Oberfeldwebel, he just fires a more damaging G43. While he's powerful, he will (in my concept) remain non-doctrinal; he's the extra punch to grab when you're not sure if its a Conscript squad or a T-34 around that wall.
I get your point but this made me laugh, you'll hear the difference between the two :P
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I know. But i didn't have anything better in my head at that time lol.
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Well, I'm not against Fa-223, but remember that it was used mostly in 1945. I'm sure that Lord Rommel would say: " It doesn't represent hole Eastern Front" -as he made uncounted times.
Jeah. And the FA-223 Drachen had never seen a combat and when not with this weapons.
So ideas like Drachen, Raketenpanzerjäger or other "futuristic weapons" wont be part of ANY Ostheer!
And jeah; I repeat it and repeat it!
For me the symbolic value is important!
The causal-CoH-gamer didnt know everything about the 2ww but most of the gamers have already seen some typical things when they had played other 2ww games.
And this linking is important for me.
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The Drache isnt a fundamental call-in; is my concept still viable without the cute lil' bugger? :-\ :)
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Changelog mentions a lot of the changes; read the PDF to see if I missed any! ;D
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Whats the point of squad costs if you didnt think about ballance even once?
engienees have 60 HP (more then US rifleman) but they cost the same as Soviets.
Schwere Ostpioneers cost 210 and are far better than volks.
VW Kubelwagen has +60 HP more than a bike for free.
Lichte Grenadiers 6 men with far more HP than riflemen, but cheaper.
Oberfeldwebel is like a british LT but with more abilities and no fuel cost
StugIII - 30 Fuel
FlaK 88mm/36 Carriage is cheaper becouse unlike the Wehrmacht gun it can move and have a crew with more HP.
Messerschmitt 109E Fighter - 2 free strafing runs per minute.
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Hmm, you have changed a lot. But:
1. Heavy Pioneers ( I don't remember name) get the first upgrade for 75 mun, and they get: Flamenwerfer and 2 G43s for 75mun. It should be 100, IMHO.
You removed this stupid gas barrage! Huuray! ;D
But, unfortunatelly, overall sight on your concept brings me some thoughts. Looks like that your Ostheer will be absolute instant-win faction. You have the most powerful artilery ( neb42, when shooting incendienary ammo makes smoke. Every unit that shoots smoke DOESN'T any damage), Tiger ( hardcapped to 1, however other German factions must take doctrine to field it), 88s ( those are 88s, they are f****n awesome, only two of six german doctrines can take it, but your can also move!) and 75mm Pak40. Maybe this concept is well thought howto fight the Russian Horde, but what with other factions? When playing Ostheer against USa or CW, Ostheer will wipe them out of the battlefield with ease.
It's too many elite or devastating weapons you can field without choosing any of doctrines. That need to be fixed.
And yes, planes are bad idea too. Again they MUST be doctrinal. Can you imagine situation, when every attack is stopped by moving 88s, Tigers 205, Ju-87 and Messerschmits? Units that you can make without doctrine?
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Overhauled cheap elites. Should hopefully remedy the balance issues with U.S. and CW factions. Added two new units and MOVED THE 88, TIGER, AND BOTH PLANES to DOCTRINAL ONLY!!!
@ Paciat; I (still) hold really deep respect towards you, but your comment felt like a slap in the face followed by "you're a bloody useless idiot". It kindof lacked constructive critasizm and just went strait for the /flame. I'm not trying to make it a big deal, the comment just...hurt. A lot. Hopefully what I've channged will avoid any more flaming from the Devs... :-\ :( :'( again, not holding any hard feelings. :(
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Now it fits me ;D
Hwoever I would make cooldown of the planes to at least 90 seconds. Remember what said Paciat - those are free straifing runs, and making one every 30 seconds for free would be devastating.
However I like changes in 1.4
Waiting for 1.5 ;D
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Back from the breach (real life). Against the constant stream of "you're wasting your time on this concept you ignorant ****", I've been editing my concept extensively. Doctrinal abilities will be tweaked to be balanced vs. the British faction that would otherwise be utterly wrecked IMO. For cephalos' pleasure, aircraft cooldowns have been boosted to 95 seconds. Schwere Pioneers are being renamed to Feldpionier, Lichte Grenadiers are going to be tweaked because I don't feel quite right about them. They seem like Volks with a gimmick. I'll also make attempts to better-translate the majority of the German I use in my concept, as I don't speak any with proficiency. I'm also preparing a secondary list of units that could replace any the community sees as out of place, OP, or broken. A waste of time, maybe, but I felt I shouldn't leave this half finished. The new version should be up in about 2-3 weeks, and the secondary unit list in about a month. Cheers!
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It's up all. V1.5 is now connected on the pdf link, and the new changelog with it. Enjoy. (Or flame. Or whatever you feel like doing xD).
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I've read what you wrote, it's pretty good in fact. I have no qualms about being able to create a Tiger un-doctrinal based, but make it worth its efficiency in cost (ex : 750, 135 fuel, since Panther is 600-110 and Panzer 4, 410-85).
-If you permit, I would suggest adding Straffbatallion (Penal units) or remplacing a more or less useful unit with it (Volkssturm/Volksgrenadiers). Make it a cheap early game or low-level doctrinal called-in unit, a manpower cost around 100-150, with an ability like the Lieutnant's or Captain's Maintain command range, but instead of moving behind the unit, it would move AHEAD of that unit, to clear the way for mines and a passive that "sucks" the MGs supression in a small area, as to provide protection for regular units while they advance. That would reflect the mentality of totalitarian dictatorships of the time.
- Too many of your units come in with a grenade ability, making them too versatile and too costly in ammo with upgrades.
- Doesn't your Schwere bunker sound a bit too OP ? 20 slots, 3 MG42s and a 81 mm mortar ? Holy shit ! Unless you planned it to cost 600 mp and 70 fuel, I don't know how anyone would go throught a game without spamming these.
- Would you consider adding new or remplacing field defenses ? I was thinking of concealed tank traps, not quite like a mine or barrier, but more like a hole that would get tanks stuck for some time and damage/destroy treads. Other idea : incendiary trap triggered by a wire, defusable by engineer and built like regular barbed wire but invisible, effect somewhat identical to PE's Scorched Earth building traps.
Keep up the good work sir !
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Yes, everything has nades. It may cost a lot, but that's the point. You have to choose when you use nades and when you drop a bombing run. So spamming firestorms (example) isnt viable. The heavy bunker I'll boost the cost on, I got the idea from BLITZKRIEG! Mod's "Heavy 210mm Mortarbunker" for PE SC. Thought an MG and something that didnt shoot howie rounds might be nice. Add population upkeep, something like 4/5/10? The Tiger will have pretty fair damage, I was thinking something along the lines of Voss' campeign Tiger in ToV. Cost will be bumped up but I want nubmers, not just "make it higher". Whenever I do, even by 1 manpower and fuel, Cephalos, Rommel, and everyone else converges and flames the change as gamebreaking :P. I've seen a LOT of penal units around the forum, and for a while I thought "gee, I'll add this for ****'s and giggles". But the fact that there was a lot of "my country isn't in your units!" and so on made me choose otherwise. Lichte Grenadiers should be your suicide chargers; they're so cheap, there's a button ability that reinforces any loss with a LG squad, and they're what pop out of Medic Tents. Give me a specific idea, however, and I'll make some sort of penal unit. Though "Romanian Mercenaries" or whatever is OUT. "Foreign Support Conscripts"?
EDIT: Topic: Ostheer Concept by TheVolskinator (Read 666 times) bad omen? :o lmao
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafbattalion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafbattalion)
Penal battalions are not slaves or Foreign prisonners battalions; they're Wehrmacht enlisted and officers who commited serious enough offense (mutinery, betrayal, murder, rape.etc) to get sent there, and has such, they have to repay their dishonorable acts in blood, i.e. getting killed or harmed on suicide missions. Thus, they do not need to be of a foreign nation, they could be germans for all I know. Avoiding deaths for their countrymen would be their only in-game task, so they open the way for LGrens and others units, since they aren't really useful otherwise. I would never use my volksgrenadiers in regular CoH to clear minefield when I can use pios for a cheaper cost.
See my point ? :)
The thing with grenades is, in Wehrmacht, Volksgrenadiers have no nades, Stormtroopers have bundle grenades, Grenadiers have Stielhandedgrenate, while Knight Cross Holders come with Assault nades regardless of doctrine choice, but all your guys in Ostheer, except for the basic pios, are equipped with the same frag grenade tough they're not suited for the same task. That's strange.
PS : 750 MP and 135 fuel is balanced for a produced Tiger I, as called-in units do not cost fuel at all but in average an extra 15-20 % manpower. Wehrmacht's Tiger I is 900, so...
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EDIT: Topic: Ostheer Concept by TheVolskinator (Read 666 times) bad omen? :o lmao
nooo, it's good omen, indeed :)
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Strafbattalion Soldaten
Role: Cannon Fodder
Cost: 145 Manpower
# of Squad Members: 6/7/8?
Build Time: 20/30?
Weapons: K98 (reduced accuracy and damage. Volks k98?)
Abilities: Blood Debt (Free, lasts 30 seconds, 45 second cooldown): Repaying their debt to Germany, any losses sustained while the ability is active will be reinforced for free)
Health: anywhere from 40 to 50?
Reinforce Cost: 10 Manpower?
Something along those (very general) lines? Thats not an official idea but just something general. Also, please, please, please comment on the 'Terror Package' removal or not for Ostgrens. They seem like quite the munis hog unit and I wanted to see what upgrade everyone thought was pretty pointless. @ Ceph: lmaosarcasmwinlmao.
EDIT: Copypaste a unit from the PDF, erase the stats etc and use the template (parts in bold) to fill in the stats and whatnot for a penal unit you think would work well. Also state if it should be doctrinal or not (Not Wall of Steel Method, has 3 inf call ins which is overkill already :P)
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I really don't see any spamable cannon fodder to the Ostheer. Germans weren't wasting their soilders like SU.
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In fact, with penal batallions, the German High Command was mostly trying to set an example among their peers for them not to cross the line in times of war, without executing them as human ressources were scarce for such an operation. Soldiers who atoned for their deeds by performing honorably during their sentence were released from straffbatallions and sent back to regular units, unlike Soviet Union's own penal units where prisonners, except for a few cases, were mostly used until their death as the army "forgot" to keep records of their good deeds.
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In fact, with penal batallions, the German High Command was mostly trying to set an example among their peers for them not to cross the line in times of war, without executing them as human ressources were scarce for such an operation. Soldiers who atoned for their deeds by performing honorably during their sentence were released from straffbatallions and sent back to regular units, unlike Soviet Union's own penal units where prisonners, except for a few cases, were mostly used until their death as the army "forgot" to keep records of their good deeds.
This can be applied to your unit :). They can earn retreat ability on vet1.
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You want me to bring in a weak unit, I do, and its a terrible idea...what? Lol. And did I not say that was just a general idea? And also asked for YOUR ideas :P. Don't yell at me for doing what you asked 8) However i didn't bother to do any research on the S-battalion, which is a failure to impart my concept's general historical accuracy. However, like I said, give me a SPECIFIC abilities and stats, such as how many squadmembers or how much i costs, and ill hammer something out. I cant give you what you want if I don't know what it is ;D
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Strafbattalion Soldaten/Penal unit Convicts (English or German)
Created from : Trupp Baracks (no doc required)
Role : Cannon Fodder, Minefield clearing, Supression soaking
Cost: 150 Manpower
# of Squad Members: 3
Build Time: 20
Weapons: K98 (reduced accuracy and damage)
Abilities: Blood Debt (Free, lasts 30 seconds, 45 second cooldown): Repaying their debt to Germany, any losses sustained while the ability is active will be reinforced for free Vanguard (Free, on target, no cooldown, no time limit): As long as the ability is active, the soldaten will open the way for the targetted squad, leading ahead of that unit at a dangerous distance*. Cannon fodder (Free, Passive, always active): The SS/PuC soak up some of the supression received by nearby allied units.
Health per man : 60
Reinforce Cost: 18
Reinforce time : 3
Capture rate : 0.85
Population : 3
Upkeep : 5
Retreat modifier : 50
Sight : 35
Retreat modifier : 0.5
Hardcapped at 2
I wasn't yelling at you, I was just answering Cephalos about the usefulness and the historical accuracy of Straffbatalions ;). Convicts come in small size, 3 seems like a good number to me (so that they can keep an eye on them). Harder to kill than pioneers would, but weaker than volksgrenadiers, therefore unfit for real damage-dealing. Limit set to 2 at the same time so that players can't spam them. Lower upkeep than pioneers, because they have no task except for their protection role (and cause they're underfed) so they require fewer ressources. Have I forgot something ?
* About the same distance as a british officiers in follow mode.
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Very good overall, I like you had a similar idea to mine with the 2 types of pioneers, one for bases and one for field construction.
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Oh I took that in stride. Wasn't offended or anything at all. Was acting in mock shock. Like the idea, maybe boost the cap to 3? My "upkeep" is the amount of population the squad occupies, not the manpower upkeep, thats unlisted :P. So that's not present on any unit (for anyone wondering). Retreat modifiers were also left out because there was a lot of arguing over the Soviet's modifier, so I decided not to step into the middle of another argument. Took the S-Batt unit and am currently hammering it out! +1!
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In fact, with penal batallions, the German High Command was mostly trying to set an example among their peers for them not to cross the line in times of war, without executing them as human ressources were scarce for such an operation. Soldiers who atoned for their deeds by performing honorably during their sentence were released from straffbatallions and sent back to regular units, unlike Soviet Union's own penal units where prisonners, except for a few cases, were mostly used until their death as the army "forgot" to keep records of their good deeds.
Right, I got the point. But the fact is that Soviets were wasting no penal soilders ( that doesn't mean they didn't have any) but the real, line soilders. Tehy were no criminals but normal privates. I just don't see in Ostheer tactics like "private spam" - it's Soviet way of war, and let it be. Nevertheless idea of penal unit as DOCTRINAL call-in is nice.
It would be really unfun see taht every Ostheer player is spamming those.
Oh, and we should think about our forum leading critic.... I know we can make in ours concepts the most wacky things, but it often ends in " this won't happen in Ostheer". Don't be angry of me, I'm just saying what I think - I'd love to see penal units in Ostheer, but it looks like that devs are trying to make EF fitting to the vCOH climate - I mean no superweapons and being politicly neutra;. Somebody could have grandfather in penal units... and the rest you know...
... but that's just game.
+1 for idea.
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I've thought of another couple of possible fixes for your Ostheer army concept; as always you are free to heed them or not, your concept, you're the boss.
Units :
-The Marked Shot (One hit kill) of the Doctrinal Tiger is OP, as having 400 MP and 80 fuel+ vanish in less than a second without being able to do something about it is unbalanced; make it a disable for the ennemy tank's main gun (similar to ATHT's Treadbreaker, in effect and cooldown) that would require repairs by engineers, OR a coup de gâce for damaged vehicles (less than 25% HP), as you probably experienced a tank battle where you had to fire 3-4 shots to finish a tank on the verge of death.
-Oberfeldwebel should come with the ability to use smoke grenades (still 15-20 ammo) instead of Stielhandengranate, as he is in a leadership position; troops would benefit from tactical preparation of an onslaught. I would also add to up to now, only tanks, mortar, rifle nade section and artillery have been given smoke rounds, having officers equipped with it would be original AND useful.
Doctrinal :
-Stealth bomber, first command ability of the right branch of Infiltration method... 4 CPs.. Damn. Ostheer's gonna be heavy with aerial raids.
#Instead, I could see a real stealth ability more in line with the idea behind Infiltration Method : From now on, owned structures (does not include occupied civilian buildings) are covered with leaf net camouflage (an add like the MG gunner in Fortify the Perimeter) and on activation, 75 ammo for 20 secs, they disapear from the sight of the enemy; great to prevent a bunker from being destroyed or to recover from the surprise of a base rush.
-There is 4 command abilities in the right branch of Obliteration method instead of the standard 3, I would advise you remove Harbring of Death, as you already have a plane-based abilities in this doctrine (Ju 87 stuka)
-The command button in Zealous Homefront that creates Licht Grenadiers for dead squads is identical to Red Tide of the Soviet Army, remove that ability.
Veterancy:
-Defensive Veterancy (both for infantry and vehicles) should yield side bonuses like the Offensive one (weapons), for now it's a bit useless. If you intend to make Teller mines, or concealed pits to immobilize tanks (personnal suggestion), available to Feldpioneers, use the occasion to insert them into gameplay without ruining balance early game.
Upgrades:
-You asked for a feedback on Terror Package : good idea, but reduce the number of Flammenwerfers given to 2 (3 is overdoing it), and make it require a global upgrade from HQ before it is authorized (Terror Warfare, cost MP and fuel, quite like the Kampfgruppe Kompagnie's panzershreck upgrade)
Misc:
-Sonderkommandos, in Infiltration Method, bear the same name as Jews used as auxiliaries in the execution of the Holocaust in death camps. It should be changed for something possibly less offensive to certain players.
-While I like your Assault Infiltration ablity of calling in Volkssturm reinforcement, I have to say that they would be out of phase, as they were raised as a unit only late 1944, and the Eastern Front setting starts with Barbarossa years before. I searched for a substitute unit with the same background and task that could fit, which I will introduce in next post to lighten up the now too heavy text.
Post Merge: October 16, 2010, 06:50:59 AM
We have yet to see any SS units in CoH, for a good reason, but yet they were used extensively as the war progressed, mostly in anti-tank duties. Foreign volonteers formations and remaining German SS units were often raised as Panzerjager (Tank hunters) batallions/regiments/brigades, equipped with sub-machine guns and Panzerfaust. I thought "Hey, that would be great" but as forum members quickly reminded newcomers, the devs wish to keep the game politically neutral and un-offensive to players, so I can't just call them "SS". Here's something I came with :
blackguard
(dated) A scoundrel; an unprincipled contemptible person; an untrustworthy person. ---> suits description of the brutal, chaotic and sadistic nature of SS formations, without naming them.
Blackguards :
Role: Anti-tank, light anti-infantry
Cost: 280 each (comes in 2 squads = 560)
# of Squad Members: 5
Build Time: N/A, Called-in
Weapons: 1 K98k and 4 MP40
Upgrades : Volkssturmgewehr 1-5 (75 ammo)
Abilities: Frantic (On activation, passive, 35 ammo, 30 sec duration, 60 sec cooldown): Blackguards recover Health Points (+22 over 30 secs), fire with increased accuracy (1.05) and rate (1.25); works only in enemy-held territories, Volley: (On activation, Free, 2 sec channel time, 7 sec cooldown) For the duration of effect, the squad freezes where it stands and is will fire 2 panzerfaust free of cost on the next targeted enemy unit.
Health: 70
Reinforce Cost: 0.6 of basic value (33 per man)
Retreat modifier: 0.5
Upkeep: 10,39
Pop cap: 5
Sight: 35
Capture rate: 0.90
What do you guys think ?
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I like your ideas, especially your Infiltration Method & blackguards :).
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Marked Shot has a very, very long cooldown (+100 seconds from PE's abilities, and in game, those seem to take centuries to be useable again). Yes, it’s OP, but by the time the Tiger is out, the SU should have IS2s or a mass of T-34/85s. The ability is meant as a counter to mega-units such as the IS2, SU-152, or Pershing. I'll consider lowering its effects. Oberfeldwebel I'll add the smoke nades too, it IS original and it's a good idea--thanks. Stealth Bomber: OH and WM (all-considering) had HEAVY Luftwaffe support. The stealth bomber run would also drop maybe 6-10 bombs (or howies; eq.) over a very wide area. It's a surprise but not necessarily a game breaker or insanely accurate. Your replacement ability also looked a lot like ‘Camo Nets’ for Wall of Steel—defensive structures are now passively camo’d unless they fire or are detected. Removing Harbinger of Death would render OH without off-map artillery save the 'Big Bertha' shot, which isn’t easily useable or spam able (this is considering Stealth Bomber is removed). Other doctrines have four abilities on one side (correct me if I'm wrong). The button for Zealous Homefront was more of a gimmick than anything. ZH’s ‘+10’ didn’t seem like it would attract selection until the end of the game. Defensive Vet1 for both inf and vehicles is very minor. Why? ITS VET1. You get a speed bump to go along with not getting hit less often—oh noes, I can cap and flank with ease :o ! I haven’t seen a terrible gripe at it and it seems in check with other defensive vet. Feld’s will get tellers at vet1, and I’m not adding tank pits. Same point as tellers; tank runs over them, damaged, and immobilized. I’ll bump the flammenwerfer count down to two on the Terror Package upgrade, but giving it an expensive global upgrade seems a tad redundant. Lategame flamers aren’t particularly common or effective. Sondercommando’s; as far as I knew, it meant “Special Commando”, I’ve never seen a referral to the Holocaust. There was a special Luftwaffe unit in late 44’ that kamikaze sty-e attacked B-17’s called Sondercommando Elbe. They were all VOLUNTEER Luft pilots. Volkssturm seem appropriate, as I didn’t want even a general reference to an SS unit. Unintentional or not (half appreciated), telling me “Volkssturm are out of period, it doesn’t fit at all—pointless. Here’s my unit that I think is much better, what does everyone else think?” seemed like you were advertising one of your concepts on this thread. If you’d like to see the unit used, add it to your concept. And as (my) OH’s two main infantry use very cheap PzFausts and PzShrecks, I don’t see a gap that needs to be filled with multiple PzFausts. Also, you mention that the Blackguard’s composition, akin to that of SS-Panzerjager trupps, was latewar—the same as Volkssturm. And, I do mention that Volkssturm stats and additional abilities are open to be fangled with by the devs, I saw a modified Stormtrooper squad and thought they’d want to change parts of it around; Blackguards seem to be VSturm with double fausts and a heroic charge-like ability. Sorry if anything seemed angry/way too blunt, I’m tired and sore today. 8)
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I dont like the name "Blackguards" it sounds kinda roleplaying MMO stylish. But many good ideas there bro
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Dont use google translate.
It should be "Deutschlands mächtiges Ostheer"
I am sorry for being a grammar Nazi but sometimes it hurts how the internet rapes the german language... >:(
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^ Thx 8)
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I dont like the name "Blackguards" it sounds kinda roleplaying MMO stylish. But many good ideas there bro
Myself I actually like the name Blackguards. I know the SS had there own personal magazine called the ¨blackguard¨ with the latest news from the SS XD
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Yeah, this thread's at the top of the list again ("Stfu, concepts don't count for jack now!"). Yep, I got that memo. But I've absolutely busted my ass on a literal sea of pages etc, and hopefully I'll have several documents with corresponding stats etc posted. More of closure that I actually finished a new faction [concept] than anything else (and ofc to show it off and see if everyone thinks it'd be mostly-balanced). Asking blackbishop to please not close this thread (it's old, not recently posted on, and won't matter to the mod at this point; I see the reasons behind it if it is closed, but still, please don't ;D ). Thanks to everyone who read through and commented on my concept. If it passes muster I might fiddle with corsix and try to make something of it.
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Right, so my computer bombed over the weekend. All of my data except the public-content-esqe PDF was lost (so, a good 70 or so pages of data; yeah, I'm obviously pissed lol). However, I have this; VFinal of my concept. Late I know, but closure that I went at the challenge 110%. Read and enjoy, critique or otherwise is certainly welcome. Again, many, many thanks to everyone who added input.
EDIT: The V-Final concept is in a PDF link on the first post in this topic ;D.
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Right, so my computer bombed over the weekend. All of my data except the public-content-esqe PDF was lost (so, a good 70 or so pages of data; yeah, I'm obviously pissed lol). However, I have this; VFinal of my concept. Late I know, but closure that I went at the challenge 110%. Read and enjoy, critique or otherwise is certainly welcome. Again, many, many thanks to everyone who added input.
EDIT: The V-Final concept is in a PDF link on the first post in this topic ;D.
Where? I can't find it.
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Right, so my computer bombed over the weekend. All of my data except the public-content-esqe PDF was lost (so, a good 70 or so pages of data; yeah, I'm obviously pissed lol). However, I have this; VFinal of my concept. Late I know, but closure that I went at the challenge 110%. Read and enjoy, critique or otherwise is certainly welcome. Again, many, many thanks to everyone who added input.
EDIT: The V-Final concept is in a PDF link on the first post in this topic ;D.
Where? I can't find it.
Ok, i found it. No need to reply.
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47 manpower to reinforce a man in a squad? O_o That better be some awesome dudes.
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PGs got a reinforcement cost of 45 manpower and they don't seem like awesome dudes :(
They get beat by a 23 manpower engineer close range.
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PGs got a reinforcement cost of 45 manpower and they don't seem like awesome dudes :(
They get beat by a 23 manpower engineer close range.
I know, but I find PGs sort of too expensive. 45 manpower was a good price back in the day when they were monsters on the field, but the vCoH balance has made them worse and worse over the years.
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Ostgrenadiers would be completely broken, even for their cost. They'd be tougher than Vet3 grenadiers at Vet0, with more men in the squad, and oh, by the way, you can't counter them with a sniper. I admit that this faction concept was posted before I really knew what I was doing in regards to CoH stats; before I even had access to Corsix.
If you want to see at least some of the ideas in this concept in action, take a look at Operation Avalanche: Fall of Italy mod (http://www.moddb.com/mods/operation-avalanche-fall-of-italy), developed by myself.