Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: AdmV0rl0n on August 01, 2010, 10:50:21 PM
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In General, Brits tend to be accused of being the most out of balance faction, and in many games they are.
Additions:
The comet. Thanks. Appreciate the work on this. Seems poorer against tanks than firefly. Seems poorer against inf than cromwell. Seems slower than cromwell. Seems tougher than both. This is an early view from just a couple of games.
Actual Changelog
British Bug Fixes and Balance Changes
* Kangaroo Manpower cost increased to 300 from 240. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Fuel cost increased to 45 from 10. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Health decrease from 650 to 550. (Nerf)
* Kangaroo Build time increased from 35 to 45 seconds. (Nerf, getting boring now)
* Staghound MG Gunner is now in line with other MG Gunners.
(Not sure, Nerf?)
* Increase delay of Forward Observation Officers (FOO) from 2.0 to 2.75 seconds. (Nerf )
* PIAT accuracy vs infantry reduced. (Nerf, seems like a very one sided deal about now.. :/ )
* Recon Tommies can now detect snipers while moving. (Improvement)
* Sappers now has wire cutters. (Nerf, I blow up sand bags and barb with piats in needed, and you've robbed the sappers of the ambush)
* Bren Carrier now receives double damage while repairing. (Nerf, the bren already stops firing when repairing which was bad enough)
* Tommy Bren gun can no longer use Button Up while garrisoned (Roo, Bren Carrier, Trench, etc). (Nerf)
Changes:
Major nerf on Kangeroo.
Fuel price up. Cost up. Toughness reduced. Build time up.
Inf nerf, reduced ability of buttoning.
Bren made useless and death on repair (presume this is an early game nerf.)
Sappers are given wire cutters, BUT, you've nerfed sappers because now there is no hidden ambush.
Overall, I might concede that Kangeroos needed some adjustment. I enjoy raiding with kangeroos and I know many other players have an appreicted view that they were overpowered against their costs and there is a quantity of whining about them.
BUT, I have to say, Kangeroos were one of the changes I welcomed because they gave brits some teeth offensively mid/late game, and in addition they supply some mobility which again the brit needs badly.
Overall, looking at the above, I have taken the view that its a serious nerf on the already misbalanced brits. If you are going to do this, then you need to re-engineer the other units to rebalance the brits.
Suggestions in light of patch - assuming above changes are to stay
1. Reduce brit infantry cost to 400 or perhaps 350
2. Make all brit inf sniper unit by default - unless upgraded
This gives the brits a mobile inf unit early game for lower cost.
3. Remove the upgrade on them until left tennant is out, so no bren or grenade unless the LT is out.
4. decrease cost of bren carrier to 240, but increase build time slightly.
5. Make sappers without piats a tougher unit = to 4 man inf unit. When piats bought, reduce to current health
6. Allow sappers to have piats only when captain is out
7. Allow sappers to have the ambush back, even if they are equipped without piats.
8. Allow sappers a road block function = at the cost of ammo per road block. If felt appropriate make this available only to engineer faction.
9. Make sappers and air borne the only unit that can trench.
Make sappers have the same demo ability as airborne, not just limited to buildings and bridges as per now.
The above adjusts brits to be a bit more like other factions and to increase their numbers and lower cost slightly.
I'm not sure what to say really. Nothing has been done to alter their early game weakness against PIO spam (one example)- I've said before how much I appreciate the effort put in, and I also am happy to say that as you guys develop things you'll adjust them. But this seems a big unfair nerf, and I offer my comment here in the hope it can be viewed as constructive.
One last thing.
I appreciate the change log. It would be interesting if someone could perhaps give a reason in the change log for the actual change. That way sometimees as a Player I might understand why an adjustment is made.
Overall, I play Brit quite a lot and this change has pretty much shocked me. I don't understand the nerfing (Apart from kangeroo's perhaps, which I think a change overall was due and most would agree with to some degree)
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I dislike the fact that the British were nerfed without much in return too but I do not agree with your ideas, nor do I think the developers will implement them. Your changes involve redesigning the British on a fundamental level which throws their balance out of whack.
I think fixing some more of their bugs would be a good way to compensate for their nerfs. That and making sure Pio-Spam isn't as strong as it was before 1.2 (Even though I believe there are more effective ways of dealing with it... Altering their suppression threshold would have been perfect...).
For the mean time though, I can't bring myself to play the British until their Button-Up ability is fixed.
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Brits were considered OP before the introduction of the Roo in ToV.
The Roo is/was just mental, unbelieveably OP and that's one of the things we fixed.
In fact its the only real nerf along with the OP bren in Bren. Even that is a bug fix as no abilities can be used when units are garisoned in vehicles/buildings
It hardly constitutes as an unfair.
What you list as a ''series of nerfs'' is actually a single unit adjustment-just one!
And its still quite usable and effective...just not cheap as chips
FOO arty was a bug fix, not a nerf.
Piat was a bug fix not a nerf.
How you consider the addition of wire cutters as a nerf is beyond understanding
In all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.
There are no plans to make further changes to vanila balance apart from necessary fixes.
Cheers
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(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3143/wtfoe8.jpg) (http://"http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3143/wtfoe8.jpg")
Well...
a) Kangaroo need all that nerfs to become balanced.
b) The Staghound MG was special... why? because it was bugged.
c) Remember about insta arty... it was way OP!!
d) Hitting a vehicle with PIAT is one thing, but to hit a soldier is another story... It's was made by the same reason that a bazooka guy, a panzershreck team or a PTDR team cannot rip infantry.
d) Recon tommies detection improved... Yeah.
e) All engineers must have wirecutters, if not it's bugged, you cannot compare using wirecutters to blow them with PIATs, it's like using a gun to kill a fly. Sappers don't need ambush, just PIATs.
f) Which unit repairs itself without being target of a tree commander ability? When engies repair stuff they receive double damage as I remember, I conclude that logic was applied. Seems that you don't understand that the BC repair rate is huge, you spent more time weakening than that thing in repairs itself.
h)I have nothing to say about button ability.
I'm not going to discuss your suggestions, because I dont like them... that's all and looks like you are a brit fanboy, no offense intended.
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I think fixing some more of their bugs would be a good way to compensate for their nerfs. That and making sure Pio-Spam isn't as strong as it was before 1.2 (Even though I believe there are more effective ways of dealing with it... Altering their suppression threshold would have been perfect...).
For the mean time though, I can't bring myself to play the British until their Button-Up ability is fixed.
+1
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Pios no longer get elite armour at vet2 meaning Brits can rip them apart-that constitutes as a fix for that problem
The fixed pak is also a big boost to brits and US and in a far bigger way than the Roo or the Button
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Brits were considered OP before the introduction of the Roo in ToV.
The Roo is/was just mental, unbelieveably OP and that's one of the things we fixed.
In fact its the only real nerf along with the OP bren in Bren. Even that is a bug fix as no abilities can be used when units are garisoned in vehicles/buildings
It hardly constitutes as an unfair.
What you list as a ''series of nerfs'' is actually a single unit adjustment-just one!
And its still quite usable and effective...just not cheap as chips
FOO arty was a bug fix, not a nerf.
Piat was a bug fix not a nerf.
How you consider the addition of wire cutters as a nerf is beyond understanding
In all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.
There are no plans to make further changes to vanila balance apart from necessary fixes.
Cheers
The bren was OP for a reason. The lack of INF/Mobility and enormous cost for brits REQUIRE something like the bren. And now its nerfed again.
The brits were not OP before kanger.
The kanger is OP but loaded Kangers cost a LOT. This seems to have be misread by many. A kangeroo loaded costs potentially more than 1000 + addional costs in Ammo and weapons.
The kanger could have been amended - like only having one officer slot and one squad slot only.
The kanger is one of the few late game teeth brits have.
The NERFS are nerfs, and removal of the ambush and claiming its not nerfed is just flat out wrong.
As for the rest of your comments, well, its clear you have a chip on shoulder as some do about Brits. No matter, all I tried to say was this came across as a lot of nerfing, and it is a lot of nerfing. If the teams intention is to make no more large scale changes - re brits, then the brits are now again badly imbalanced in multiple ways.
(I note your point regarding Pios in thread - and true, that helps with a balance issue - Thanks)
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Here's my thoughts on the changes.
* Kangaroo Manpower cost increased to 300 from 240.
* Kangaroo Fuel cost increased to 45 from 10.
* Kangaroo Health decrease from 650 to 550.
* Kangaroo Build time increased from 35 to 45 seconds.
Great changes. Not quite as hard hitting as the changes I had in mind but if the experts think it's okay now...
* Staghound MG Gunner is now in line with other MG Gunners.
I agree that their MG was overpowered but I honestly think that these changes (Maybe a nerf to it's health too) make it justifiable to have it replace the Stuart instead of the Command Tank. It's not a fair tradeoff anymore.
* Increase delay of Forward Observation Officers (FOO) from 2.0 to 2.75 seconds.
I agree with this too. It's not too much at all. I can still take out MG and Mortar Teams easily with this time frame while it still let's my enemy have a chance to move his main infantry out of the area if he reacts immediately.
* PIAT accuracy vs infantry reduced.
I've never relied of PIAT Sappers for Anti-Infantry duty so I'm indifferent to this change. But if this allows for there to be one less thing to complain about from the community, I'm all for it!
* Recon Tommies can now detect snipers while moving.
It's only common sense to fix what is broken after all. :)
* Sappers now has wire cutters.
This is not a nerf at all. You just need to be careful not to click directly on the sandbags. But even so, I find natural cover to be more reliable than sandbags anyway. It makes it less predictable as to where my Sappers are that way.
* Bren Carrier now receives double damage while repairing.
This is a smart change that I welcome wholeheartedly. While I am a fan of Sappers in Bren Carriers, this makes things a lot fairer for the opposing side. Auto repair is no longer a bulletproof shield you can activate when you get in trouble. People were suggesting nerfing their base stats which would have destroyed the Bren Carrier's viability. I'm glad the developers made the right decision to focus on the real problem, auto-repair.
To correct AdmV0rl0n, the Bren Carrier can still use it's weapons during auto-repair, provided that you never upgraded it yet. When you fill the Bren Carrier with Bren-equipped infantry, all weapons remain operational while it's health regenerates at a rate faster than the enemy can damage it during early game. This made the Bren-in-Bren overpowered. Something needed to be done.
* Tommy Bren gun can no longer use Button Up while garrisoned.
Provided that the change works as intended, it would help greatly reduce the Kangaroos immense power. Sure, I'm going to miss being able to button from building and trenches but I doubt it it was possible to ban button from being used in vehicles alone anyway.
Pios no longer get elite armour at vet2 meaning Brits can rip them apart-that constitutes as a fix for that problem
The fixed pak is also a big boost to brits and US and in a far bigger way than the Roo or the Button
True, it makes them vulnerable for longer to small arms fire. But when it comes to team games, it's not going to help as much. The enemy won't be as easy to cut off from fuel and he'll be free to reach Vet 3 soon enough. It only delays the inevitable. That's why I feel it isn't enough. Just my opinion.
The Pak being fixed is also a great way to help the allies, I agree. There's no question about that.
All I'm really after personally is a few bug fixes that makes things work as intended. But seeing as to how Commandos gaining veterancy from Officers doesn't seem to be on the agenda, may I ask what it is that stops the developers from making this change, despite it clearly being a bug? Because it's unnecessary?
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re Kangeroo changes.
Not great changes. The kangeroo to be useful cost at least 240+320+10 fuel+75 ammo. However, I'm not too adverse on this, as I think it is true the kangeroo needed amendment.
Sappers.
I don't care about wether it gets wirecutters. I care that giving them wirecutters and removing the ambush is not seen as a nerf. You can add in there the forever annoyed about brit never being able to block a road. But all aside, I actually don't care whatanyone else says, I'm saying its a nerf because the ambush has been removed. And it was and is the only brit hidden unit, so yes, its a Nerf from where I sit.
"To correct AdmV0rl0n, the Bren Carrier can still use it's weapons during auto-repair, provided that you never upgraded it yet. When you fill the Bren Carrier with Bren-equipped infantry, all weapons remain operational while regenerates it's health at a rate faster than the enemy can damage it during early game. This made the Bren-in-Bren overpowered. Something needed to be done."
To correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.
And now I'm actually antagonised, because none of you seem to have realised the brit ambush has been wacked.
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To correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.
I'm not out to antagonise you. You said that the Bren Carrier's weapons cease to function when auto repair is activated. This is a misleading statement since it only applies to upgunned Bren Carriers (Which is widely agreed on as being balanced). It's also true that the Bren Carriers has been nerfed several times in the past but it also recieved great buffs. Such as having increased health when upgunned and recieving the Button ability.
You are looking at the sandbag change in the completely wrong way. Look at the positives like being able to use unupgraded Sappers to destroy the enemy's wire and sandbags for free. Plus Sappers don't need to rely on sandbags alone for their ambush ability to work. Any light and heavy cover on the battlefield work nicely. Plus it's not like you need to click directly on the sandbags to make infantry use them. You can click right next to them to avoid destroying them with your wire cutters. Sure, there could be a potential of clicking them by accident but it's still avoidable.
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To correct you, caveats like 'so long as you have not upgraded it yet' eliminate your point. A bren under repair becomes useless and to a greater extend ceases to actually fight, ESPECIALLY the upgunned model. And it was never OP, it was a sop provided because the Brit inf costs so much something had to be provided that was mobile and hard hitting early game. But its ok, its only about the 1000th nerf to the bren in COH history, its not like yet another one changes anything.
I'm not out to antagonise you. You said that the Bren Carrier's weapons cease to function when auto repair is activated. This is a misleading statement since it only applies to upgunned Bren Carriers (Which is widely agreed on as being balanced). It's also true that the Bren Carriers has been nerfed several times in the past but it also recieved great buffs. Such as having increased health when upgunned and recieving the Button ability.
You are looking at the sandbag change in the completely wrong way. Look at the positives like being able to use unupgraded Sappers to destroy the enemy's wire and sandbags for free. Plus Sappers don't need to rely on sandbags alone for their ambush ability to work. Any light and heavy cover on the battlefield work nicely. Plus it's not like you need to click directly on the sandbags to make infantry use them. You can click right next to them to avoid destroying them with your wire cutters. Sure, there could be a potential of clicking them by accident but it's still avoidable.
I'll have to check this. I've noted the icon is missing. Perhaps the ability is there automatcially now when in cover.
If so, then its true, no nerf
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Just checked for you. It would seem that Sappers lose their Wirecutters when upgraded with PIATs and gain their Ambush ability. Looks like your ambush tactics aren't in danger at all. :)
In all honesty, all I see is a complain about the fact that we fixed two imbalances that were previously abused to get unfair wins.
Learn to win without abusing unbalanced units.
I'll admit that I reacted badly when I first saw the changelog but I'm over it now. Almost none of the changes in anyway truly impact the way I play the British. But I was still hoping that Commando vet and Demo Sappers would be fixed. One can only dream I suppose.
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If it as up to me, I think all infantry should have a ambush button when in heavy cover. But of course people will shout OP OP OP OP. I am a expert on ambushes and COH makes it really hard.
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But I was still hoping that Commando vet and Demo Sappers would be fixed. One can only dream I suppose.
Indeed, but what do you mean with Demo Sappers. Do you mean Demo's as Commando Demo's, so that you can place them everywhere?
I am a expert on ambushes and COH makes it really hard.
:D
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Do you mean Demo's as Commando Demo's, so that you can place them everywhere?
Hell no! That's just plain unnecessary. I'm refering to the bug that causes the Demo Sapper's modifiers to break. You know how Relic made the change to make Demo Sappers move like Recon Sections in enemy territory? Well it's kind of buggy.
As long as Demo Sappers aren't near any Lieutenants, they can move back and forth between friendly and enemy territory much like Recon Sections can. But if they are caught in the Lieutenant's aura even once while in uncontrolled territory, they become dependent on the Lieutenant to move through that territory, just like normal infantry. If the Lieutenant gets killed or moves away from the Demo Sappers while they are in enemy territory, Demo Sappers will move as slow as Infantry Sections through uncontrolled territory.
This bug bothers me so much because I was the very person who suggested this change during the playtest Relic had before TOV was released. To have them support Recon Sections when flanking enemy defences without having to break your Lieutenants away from your main forces. The change was also made when I explained that it also helps them clear mines more effectively without having having to drag a vulnerable Lieutenant along. Relic implemented and kept the change beyond the playtest but it wasn't implemented correctly.
I think it has something to do with Demo Sappers not being not treated as an exception to the Lieutenant's speed modifier. Something like that anyway... YurdleTheTurtle knows how to fix it for sure since he fixed it in his mod.
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I DO NOT agree with the nerf to the roos but as to the sappers im indifferent , never used piat or ordinary sappers for anti infantry duties , dissapointed with the bren tommies(who the devil thinks its op)
brits dont have any late game anti infantry measure
cromwells - how many will you make??
commando hmg - late game , doctrine specific
bren or riflenades tommies cease to exist afore mp44 and pz4 if or lmg or .....you knw wht
The roo was the only late game ai measure , nerfing it was unecessary
I'd like to have a chat with these "EXPERTS" who suggested these nerfs
I think they want to make brits a completely defensive faction
The Comet is a welcome change , i loved it , can take on panzers at close ranges now , great job developers on this one!!
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There is no such thing as 'OP for a reason'.That's trying to justify the unjustifiable.
OP is not acceptable in balance. That's the whole point of balance, to make sure units are not OP cause they break the game
re Kangeroo changes.
Not great changes. The kangeroo to be useful cost at least 240+320+10 fuel+75 ammo. However, I'm not too adverse on this, as I think it is true the kangeroo needed amendment.
No, that's like saying the WH halftrack transporting a squad of grens with 2 shreks sent to destroy a bunker costs 220mp+300mp+20FU+150ammo.
This reasoning is beyond silly and wrong. With the same 'incorrect thinking' and by comparison the fragile halftracks should only cost about 50mp and nothing else!
When you get to Level16-20 in all factions, aka their level then maybe you could question them. alternatively, go to Gameplays.org and post your concern on our threads there and 'question the experts'. I'll be happy to sit and watch the 'debate'
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I agree with Zerstoerer.
What you should be stating is that "Brits can still fight endgame but I personally don't know how to do so without exploiting ridiculously OP vehicles of doom."
The current Brit weak period is actually midgame, when grenspam begins against them before they have to correct counters up. By endgame, you should have the full array of arty powers to soften up the blob before yours crushes him. Brit tanks are also very good, made all the better by the massive nerf to Paks. Croms are very fast and accurate against infantry, meaning that an attack in the right place can hurt him majorly and you can retreat before any of his AT shows up. They also come extremely early, for a tank.
Don't make assumptions of balance without the experience/knowledge to go behind it.
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Well well keep up to it , i'm not the first and i'll be not be the last :D :D
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(http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3143/wtfoe8.jpg) (http://"http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3143/wtfoe8.jpg")
Well...
a) Kangaroo need all that nerfs to become balanced.
b) The Staghound MG was special... why? because it was bugged.
c) Remember about insta arty... it was way OP!!
d) Hitting a vehicle with PIAT is one thing, but to hit a soldier is another story... It's was made by the same reason that a bazooka guy, a panzershreck team or a PTDR team cannot rip infantry.
d) Recon tommies detection improved... Yeah.
e) All engineers must have wirecutters, if not it's bugged, you cannot compare using wirecutters to blow them with PIATs, it's like using a gun to kill a fly. Sappers don't need ambush, just PIATs.
f) Which unit repairs itself without being target of a tree commander ability? When engies repair stuff they receive double damage as I remember, I conclude that logic was applied. Seems that you don't understand that the BC repair rate is huge, you spent more time weakening than that thing in repairs itself.
h)I have nothing to say about button ability.
I'm not going to discuss your suggestions, because I dont like them... that's all and looks like you are a brit fanboy, no offense intended.
+1
Completely agree. ;)
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Well well keep up to it , i'm not the first and i'll be not be the last :D :D
Seems to be that you are a CW bigot.
I like the Brits, but I'm happy about all CW changes.
I don't like ToV, I don't want to tolerate combining the two words Brits and Abuse anymore.
With these changes the CW is no longer the specific Abusefaction.
I don't understand your mindset, I mean this is positive.
The Brits will be respected by the communityplayers.
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That's unlikely, they still break several of the fundamentals of CoH. They're pretty balanced in a 1v1 now from what I can tell but they still break 2v2AT because of the mobile HQ. They'll be much MORE respected though.
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Level 16 Wher, Retake2 ;D
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I do come from a CW nation :D , however thts nt the reason why i play with british , i play british cuz it suits my style of play
I'll nt debate any longer on the brits , but after this patch the germans have grown stronger for the brits and the russians
cheers :D
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Yes, a bit stronger.
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There is no such thing as 'OP for a reason'.That's trying to justify the unjustifiable.
OP is not acceptable in balance. That's the whole point of balance, to make sure units are not OP cause they break the game
re Kangeroo changes.
Not great changes. The kangeroo to be useful cost at least 240+320+10 fuel+75 ammo. However, I'm not too adverse on this, as I think it is true the kangeroo needed amendment.
No, that's like saying the WH halftrack transporting a squad of grens with 2 shreks sent to destroy a bunker costs 220mp+300mp+20FU+150ammo.
This reasoning is beyond silly and wrong. With the same 'incorrect thinking' and by comparison the fragile halftracks should only cost about 50mp and nothing else!
When you get to Level16-20 in all factions, aka their level then maybe you could question them. alternatively, go to Gameplays.org and post your concern on our threads there and 'question the experts'. I'll be happy to sit and watch the 'debate'
Maybe you should actually read what I said before going totally off. Seriously, I said they had some OP and needed some amendment, but I pointed out their cost. Further, the reason they are used late game is totally clear. And frankly its not like other factions don't have vehicles of doom with Vet 3 late game. Further, the brits are imbalanced late game to a spectacular level if you're simply nerfing the roo's, and make no other changes.
While you are busy nerfing the hell out of the brits, of which nominally I welcome if its a general thing to improve the game overall, and the odd error creeps in, but its rather clear now that many hold a chip on shoulder about the brit faction, and have every intention of cutting the few edges off them.
If you want, I can congratulate you and the 16-20 level players who you cite for returning the brits to their roots of being a sim city doctrine unable to actually strike mobile or with decent punch, especially late game.
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I like the Brits, but I'm happy about all CW changes.
I don't like ToV, I don't want to tolerate combining the two words Brits and Abuse anymore.
With these changes the CW is no longer the specific Abusefaction.
I don't understand your mindset, I mean this is positive.
The Brits will be respected by the communityplayers.
I feel the exact same way. I am fed up with the constant, relentless and bias hatred that the British face every single day on every single forum and how your achievements with the British aren't recognised because of it. If this patch transforms this opinion and has the British recognised as a legit faction, it will become the best patch ever released since I started playing Opposing Fronts. Well, minus the unfortunate mishap of making Button-Up work the opposite way from intended.
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I agree with Zerstoerer.
What you should be stating is that "Brits can still fight endgame but I personally don't know how to do so without exploiting ridiculously OP vehicles of doom."
The current Brit weak period is actually midgame, when grenspam begins against them before they have to correct counters up. By endgame, you should have the full array of arty powers to soften up the blob before yours crushes him. Brit tanks are also very good, made all the better by the massive nerf to Paks. Croms are very fast and accurate against infantry, meaning that an attack in the right place can hurt him majorly and you can retreat before any of his AT shows up. They also come extremely early, for a tank.
Don't make assumptions of balance without the experience/knowledge to go behind it.
Yes, the brits are weakest at midgame, but hey, they get the cromwell out very early. Apart from the fact they blunted Roo's, which leaves you a cromwell command tank or no cromwells.
I'm taking a new view on this. Firstly, I don't care if Roo's handed your ass on a platter to you, by late game if you are lacking AT - thats your own problem. Secondly, Brit Roos nor anything else are overpowered. If you lose to them its more a failing of your own rather than them being OP.
Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.
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Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.
Sorry, but I guess none other support your opinion about the Kangaroo.
Now the crucial question: Is one person on solid ground or hm ... let me think briefly ... approximate 5000 persons?
Opine as you think best.
Cheers
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Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.
Sorry, but I guess none other support your opinion about the Kangaroo.
Now the crucial question: Is one person on solid ground or hm ... let me think briefly ... approximate 5000 persons?
Opine as you think best.
Cheers
Yeah, belive whatever makes you happier :-\.
Will be a hotfix for the "button enemy vehicle" bug ??? or 'till the next patch :-X?
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WTF r u guys talking abt? ::)
Post Merge: August 03, 2010, 03:11:16 AM
the brits are basically a highly defensive faction , provided with mobility due to their CTs , they can construct their emplacements deep down the line , most players have a probblem with this , u dont want a 17 pounder firing on your panzers the moment they come out of the tank depot , this is essentially a brit design issue , our "experts" here want to compensate for this mobility by nerfing the units, but they forget tht emplacemwnts can only be built in tier 2 save the mg and mortar
its like u build an mg a mortar and a 17 pounder along a road and nothing crosses this way
"OMG" this so OP!
CHANGE THE WAY U PLAY!!!!
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I have no idea what AbhMkh just said...
AdmV0rl0n: To be frank, you're an idiot. Kangs were incredibly OP and deserved the nerf. I won't even bother explaining why seeing as you won't be persuaded anyway. In short, they cost far more to counter, in resources and micro capacity, than to use. You're also being overly dramatic. Only two units received noticeable nerfs, those being the kang and bren carrier, both almost unanimously considered OP by (clearly) far better players than yourself.
You seem to be pretty resistant to persuasion so the topic must be personally relevant to you. Maybe YOU should learn how to use something else. Brits are an excellent attacking force, when used correctly. You should also revisit some of the CoH history. Brits made simcities because of ridiculously good overrepair, not because kangs weren't invented yet. Brit endgame is better than ever due to the MBT comet and Pak nerfs, and more fun for everyone involved.
Oh, and I'm not biased for, or against the British faction. I've played more 1v1 automatches as Brits (without kangs/BiB) than any other faction and have played top players on the leaderboards. But I also play the other factions. Maybe you should take a step back and see what perspective you're looking at these changes from.
EDIT:
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And frankly its not like other factions don't have vehicles of doom with Vet 3 late game.
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Yes, but it actually matters if you lose these. They also don't completely disable their target vehicle (while still moving), before popping out an officer to insta-arty any infantry that comes to it's rescue.
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CHANGE THE WAY U PLAY!!!!
CHANGE THE WAY U THINK!!!
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Brits certainly had a high amount of bullshit they could throw out in 2.6, but I think it should be pretty obvious that once you move into the mid-game they're severely lacking. Especially with these (appropriate) nerfs.
Oh, oh wait, I mean without Roo/Staghound ridiculousness. Of course.
They have very few options for dealing with Elite Armour and moving Vehicles. Their scaling is very bad. Their tanks are gimicky if they don't win with shock value.
A couple of things I consider good changes:
- Make the Recon Section into a desirable upgrade. You don't want it overpowering in the first few minutes of course, since you get it for free. The Marksman in the squad uses a unique weapon - give it hefty damage/accuracy bonuses against Elite Armour, similar to a Sniper's bonuses against Elite Armour.
- Veterancy and scaling. You're far better off with 3 unvetted Lieutenants than 1 or even 2 vetted ones. Decrease the stackable, unvetted bonuses but increase the modifiers achieved with Vet 2/3 above and beyond what was taken away.
- Rifle Grenades vs Elite Armour. All Grenades do 1.0x damage to all infantry except Rifle Grenades, which do 25% less damage to Elite Armour. Increase to the standard 1.0x.
Just addressing Infantry combat in the late game, I think these three things would help even out the Commonwealth against Elite Armour Grens without having to resort to un-fun, roundabout bull like Commando Democharges and FOO.
Rifle Grenades and Recon Elements would be the go-to choices for fighting Elite Armour Infantry, while the Bren Gun remains useful for its role in British AV.
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:O!!!
Completely agree with Kolaris. I wonder what think of this the dev team ???.
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Each to his own :P :P :P :P
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I did wonder why the patch didn't address Brit vet stacking. The other points I care less about but are still important.
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I think the Brits could do with some additions or adaptations to make them more effective.
Reason i say this is they eat up manpower so quickly.
Their commando's cost too much for their effectiveness.
Although they are practically an army in their own right if used well enough the commandos just seem wasted on the british and i would like to see them reduced in cost. or increased abilities or stats to make them worth picking in the doctrine tree.
Their fixed emplacements and trenches are very vulnerable to mortar fire.
Other than the churchills or the Comet the Brits are weak in offensive armour. Even then your precious 500 manpower + is a bullet magnet for the German anti-armour capabilities.
I would welcome a strategy for the brits that works other than arty them to hell and back.
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And So Would I
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I have no idea what AbhMkh just said...
AdmV0rl0n: To be frank, you're an idiot. Kangs were incredibly OP and deserved the nerf. I won't even bother explaining why seeing as you won't be persuaded anyway. In short, they cost far more to counter, in resources and micro capacity, than to use. You're also being overly dramatic. Only two units received noticeable nerfs, those being the kang and bren carrier, both almost unanimously considered OP by (clearly) far better players than yourself.
You seem to be pretty resistant to persuasion so the topic must be personally relevant to you. Maybe YOU should learn how to use something else. Brits are an excellent attacking force, when used correctly. You should also revisit some of the CoH history. Brits made simcities because of ridiculously good overrepair, not because kangs weren't invented yet. Brit endgame is better than ever due to the MBT comet and Pak nerfs, and more fun for everyone involved.
Oh, and I'm not biased for, or against the British faction. I've played more 1v1 automatches as Brits (without kangs/BiB) than any other faction and have played top players on the leaderboards. But I also play the other factions. Maybe you should take a step back and see what perspective you're looking at these changes from.
EDIT:
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And frankly its not like other factions don't have vehicles of doom with Vet 3 late game.
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Yes, but it actually matters if you lose these. They also don't completely disable their target vehicle (while still moving), before popping out an officer to insta-arty any infantry that comes to it's rescue.
I was never persuaded, I merely got abused from early thread. No matter. What I'm going to do is actually go away and play, because actually, I was a little unfair in the fact I;ve not rerad the nerfs and amendments elsewhere in terms of other factions, and from talking to friends, there are notable other changes which mean taking the brit changes and forming a view without examining the others is an inbalanced view anyway.
The brit faction has been nerfed forever, nothing new, and its always been notable anyone not sharing in the peer pressured nonsense gets abuse.
For the record, its probably right the kangeroo's were out of balance. The point I tried to make is large portions of the brit faction are, and I always though the roos were a make up for other areas.
One of the other things is I don't know about all the changes, as I say, I will go away and test some more, but post 2.6, glaring holes in the brits were painfully obvious, at least to me.
1. Commando's were wrecked and get no vet. Late game PE inf chew the crap out of these 'elite' troops.
2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.
3. Churchills are only viable in early and midgame, and are totally screwed late game. Churchills are nominally the only way a brit can bust a road block in terms of vehicles. The engineers have only very minor ways of utilising ammo.
4. The inf late game are screwed.
5. FF and other brit tanks are murdered end game by both AXIS AT inf and armour.
None of these things were ever offset by the Cromwell and stag mid game bump. And lastly, the early game costs have always utterly crippled brits and no the moving trucks ceased to make up for it once mid game arrives because moving in midgame leaves the truck in mortal damage if its found in the open.
As for all the whining about kangeroo's, I regard most of it as whining, because the cost of loading a kangeroo, from a position generally of the early game holding less map + generally getting less reasource required a good player to be able to actually gather enough to make the move anyway. Anyone who can pool or float enough to fill two or more kangeroo's in a serious fight is doing well. As for the insta arty, its not is it, the player would need enough ammo to equip the sappers with Piats and to float 125 ammo to commit to the task. None of this is free.
The costs incurred in loading kangeroos mean - at least to me, the briit has to float serious amounts of ammo and manpower to make this move, and given the already from early game heavy weight limits on what they can create manpower wise, you have to have been having an ineffective game and the brit will have had to have played well to commit to this.
Anyway, no matter. I'l go play this and have a look around.
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Our "experts" somehow don't understand this , plain roo is as useless as a ket , there are two ways of putting the roo
AI
2 bren tommies - 900 mp 150 mun, 1 Lt - i dont remember the MP , 1 piat or normal sapper - 320 mp and 75 ammmo agin
total cost = 1220 mp + Lt mp + 225 amm0 + 10 fuel+ roo mp
AT
2 piat sappers - 640 mp , 150 mun , 1 Bren Tommie - 450 mp , 75 mun , Lt mp
total cost = 1090 mp + 225 mun + Lt mp + 10 fuel + roo mp
I dont understand how can nyone call the above as OP
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2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.
Firefly with Tankcommander + Cromwellcommandtank => Furthes range in CoH except 88.
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Our "experts" somehow don't understand this , plain roo is as useless as a ket , there are two ways of putting the roo
AI
2 bren tommies - 900 mp 150 mun, 1 Lt - i dont remember the MP , 1 piat or normal sapper - 320 mp and 75 ammmo agin
total cost = 1220 mp + Lt mp + 225 amm0 + 10 fuel+ roo mp
AT
2 piat sappers - 640 mp , 150 mun , 1 Bren Tommie - 450 mp , 75 mun , Lt mp
total cost = 1090 mp + 225 mun + Lt mp + 10 fuel + roo mp
I dont understand how can nyone call the above as OP
Because the 240 Manpower/10 Fuel part added durability that was not proportional to its cost. So now it does.
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No AbhMkh, somehow YOU don't understand this. The rest of the troops don't die with the kang - they are recyclable. Their cost therefore doesn't factor in. It's like calling in a Tiger for 900mp, but when it dies each subsequent Tiger is only 50mp. A little unfair right?
AdmV0rl0n: Since English appears not to be your first language and you won't seem to listen I'll not debate with you much longer. There isn't any peer pressure abuse, you are simply wrong in your arguments. You have been provided with counter arguments yet you still cling to your position despite having the rebuttals being made by far more knowledgeble and skilled players than you. Balance is gauged by the majority opinion of the (informed) community. Balance is absolutely not achieved by making some units OP to compensate for UP things. Every single unit must be balanced so that it gets used frequently for it's intended purpose, and not abused.
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2. The firefly and 17 pounder have a lower range than marders.
Firefly with Tankcommander + Cromwellcommandtank => Furthes range in CoH except 88.
You can't keep quoting that the staghound is OP waaa waa and then keep stating that the brits have longest range cos of the command tank. Make up your mind.
Maybe you'd like to have made the original case of the brits gain a powerful tool midgame, but lose their ranged gear, or they choose range and lose the stag. The brits lose something in either case, and frankly, nerfing the stag means they lose both in one case. If you nerf the stag, fine, at least return the command ability.
Tell me, how do you feel about being a defensive doctrine that is both out ranged, and outgunned? Maybe you should spend some time watching marders tearing apart your emplacements and having nothing really to solve that.
Seriously, if you are going to make a case, make good ones.
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Still, keep nerfing them, anything to make you feel better.
Sorry, but I guess none other support your opinion about the Kangaroo.
Now the crucial question: Is one person on solid ground or hm ... let me think briefly ... approximate 5000 persons?
Opine as you think best.
Cheers
Yeah, belive whatever makes you happier :-\.
Will be a hotfix for the "button enemy vehicle" bug ??? or 'till the next patch :-X?
There will be a mini patch coming today or tomorrow with a few more amendments including the button fix, yes
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No AbhMkh, somehow YOU don't understand this. The rest of the troops don't die with the kang - they are recyclable. Their cost therefore doesn't factor in. It's like calling in a Tiger for 900mp, but when it dies each subsequent Tiger is only 50mp. A little unfair right?
AdmV0rl0n: Since English appears not to be your first language and you won't seem to listen I'll not debate with you much longer. There isn't any peer pressure abuse, you are simply wrong in your arguments. You have been provided with counter arguments yet you still cling to your position despite having the rebuttals being made by far more knowledgeble and skilled players than you. Balance is gauged by the majority opinion of the (informed) community. Balance is absolutely not achieved by making some units OP to compensate for UP things. Every single unit must be balanced so that it gets used frequently for it's intended purpose, and not abused.
Get your facts straight, in most cases, part of the crews die when Kangeroos are killed.
Secondly, you;re bashing the brits claiming they have the range, in a thread where everyone whined about the staghound. So, having read your name calling and sliding in the 'English is not my first language' - maybe you'd like to stick to things said here, and actually make the case.
The brits don't get the range if they take a stag, therefore, they get a mid game bump. If whining about the stag is taking place, it has to be ofset by the _fact_ the brits pay for it. It is not a one way OP.
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I get your point Godlike Dennis , about the recyclable thing , but tell me do you field just kangaroo??
lets say you field 2 roos which require an investment of about 3000 mp and they get destroyed pretty quick as they are highly vulnerable to AT fire
Then do you think the player will be in a position to invest nymore in the roos or for tht matter any other unit , cuz while hes sending the roos in the thick of the batttle he's plans on making more units...... ::)
Its like sporting 5 panthers on the field and coming back for more when they are destroyed ... , think about it...
And hey no quarrels man, AdmV0rl0n , Godlike Dennis just state your points dont implicate nybody,no abuses please , thank god we dont have many americans on this forum ;), easy lads easy...
Ps : English is the first language of only the commonwealth and USA(they too fall under the category of commonwealth whether they like it or not) , i dont think any other country has english as its first language
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I have no idea how you think stags enter into this Adm. My point about English not being your first language (it it's true) was due to your sometimes poor grammar that made reading bits of your posts difficult and I couldn't know if you were understanding my arguments correctly. I'm not trying to bully you but you're extremely stubborn, and wrong.
In the hands of a semi-decent player the crew of the kang will never die because they are ejected when it is low on health, they then instantly retreat (Brits have better retreat bonuses than the other factions as well). The stag had an MG gunner that was far better than any other and suppressed as well. This was widely considered OP.
This argument is over. You've lost. Stop reusing the same failure arguments and actually try to come up with a good reason why kangs did not deserve the nerf. Oh wait... you can't for some reason...
AbhMkh: If you reread my Tiger analogy, you might see what I mean. Sure, you need to obtain the upfront cost. But each subsequent kang only costs a fraction of the original cost because you use the same troops from the first.
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@GodlikeDennis
Well its true that people probaly agree with you more, you cant just shoot people down say you won. If he feels that it shouldnt have been nerfed, he can tell the people and the devs decide. Well, as long as hes not being a idiot over it, he can talk about it. You dont like it, dont repley.
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Ohh really :o :o :o
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I didn't tell AbhMkh he lost, as he's still making half-decent rebuttals.
AdmV0r... however is coming up with nothing new and is instead stamping his feet on the ground like a child and I'm not even going to respond to him again.
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Hmm.................. :-\ :-\
Lets close this roo chapter
Someone said
"Men of integrity are generally pretty obstinate, in adhering to an opinion once adopted. "
I finding This to be pretty true here..... :)
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I didn't tell AbhMkh he lost, as he's still making half-decent rebuttals.
AdmV0r... however is coming up with nothing new and is instead stamping his feet on the ground like a child and I'm not even going to respond to him again.
The stag = brits lose any ranged advantage they get. The only thing the stag is - is a potent midgame tool. AT weapons of various types kill it quickly enough that all is required is an atypical counter. Thus its not over powered.
Command tank, they get range but have no stag equal, and in exchange for range they lose a vehicle mid game bump the stag offers.
When pointed out to you, brits lose their ranged advantage in exchange for the stag, you claim its people stamping feet.
So, pointedly and specifically, either the stag is a potent platform, yet still killed easily by AT weapons and counters, or it loses some of that but returns the command function to the FF.
Nerfing the stag and doing nothing to correct the command issue simply robs the brits of the platform, makes the stag useless, and steals away the ranged ability they were always _supposed_ to have had.
Therefore, bluntly. Either give the stag the command function in exchange, OR leave it as a mid game potent. I have to say, this thread has been pathetic. 'Oh look, the officer can climb out and arty me, NERF THAT!' Oh look, the Kangeroo is potent' - Nerf that. Oh look, the stag comes out and kills a bunch of Inf - Nerf that, we cannot have that'.
Lets run through all the things that nerfing has done to the faction. The faction is screwed from the start - the bren was potent to counter that - Nerf. The brits had the best emplacement with range and suppression, Nerf it quick. The brits have too much mobility with those trucks, nerf that, stop the retreat, AND make them easy to kill if found moving. The FF and 17 Pounder are too potent, even though they are wiped out by decent inf, nerf them.
Having nerfed the hell out of the faction, TOV brought in the Kangeroo and stag which both provided punch all the previous nerfing killed off. And now true to form the Kangeroo and the stag have been nerfed again.
I don't need to say this, but nerfing has nothing to do with balance. Counters in game offer balance, not consistent nerfing of the base factions.
I've tolerated some abuse, including the language and idiot tagging, and thats all well and good. Anyone who things nerfing the stag is ok, but not correcting the command issue is wrong. The stag was potent for a reason, and it cost the brits ranged capability in taking that vehicle choice. It is not OP, it has a price, and a hefty one when a decent player realises the range issue in game. I'm not going to debate the point. I don't need to. And its good to see others who are wrong no matter how much they type otherwise in their own articles won't bother to write back now.
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This argument is over. You've lost. Stop reusing the same failure arguments and actually try to come up with a good reason why kangs did not deserve the nerf. Oh wait... you can't for some reason...
It sounds pretty clear that you said he lost...
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The stag = brits lose any ranged advantage they get. The only thing the stag is - is a potent midgame tool. AT weapons of various types kill it quickly enough that all is required is an atypical counter. Thus its not over powered.
Command tank, they get range but have no stag equal, and in exchange for range they lose a vehicle mid game bump the stag offers.
When pointed out to you, brits lose their ranged advantage in exchange for the stag, you claim its people stamping feet.
So, pointedly and specifically, either the stag is a potent platform, yet still killed easily by AT weapons and counters, or it loses some of that but returns the command function to the FF.
Nerfing the stag and doing nothing to correct the command issue simply robs the brits of the platform, makes the stag useless, and steals away the ranged ability they were always _supposed_ to have had.
Therefore, bluntly. Either give the stag the command function in exchange, OR leave it as a mid game potent. I have to say, this thread has been pathetic. 'Oh look, the officer can climb out and arty me, NERF THAT!' Oh look, the Kangeroo is potent' - Nerf that. Oh look, the stag comes out and kills a bunch of Inf - Nerf that, we cannot have that'.
Lets run through all the things that nerfing has done to the faction. The faction is screwed from the start - the bren was potent to counter that - Nerf. The brits had the best emplacement with range and suppression, Nerf it quick. The brits have too much mobility with those trucks, nerf that, stop the retreat, AND make them easy to kill if found moving. The FF and 17 Pounder are too potent, even though they are wiped out by decent inf, nerf them.
Nicelly said. US still has stickies and T-17 blinding shot, PE AT halftracks but Brit BRENs were nerfed. Wasnt US the most OP fraction of 2.601?
While I dont mind nerfing Kangaroos I do mind nerfing Stags. Stags have 450 HP becouse they cant get vet. Its like having only one type vet3 wehrmacht unit and all other at vet 0.
If someone tries to fight Staghounds (anti infatry vechicles) with shrecks he should expect looses.
Hate when people try to win using only PE shreck blob and when they are countered by well microed Cromwells and Stuart+canister shot flank, or AVRE, or miltiply Stags.
I also hate when people say that PAKs should win vs Stags.
PAKSs are not counters to Stags. Stugs, Ostwinds and tanks are. 1 thing that can be nerfed in Stags is the dmg multipier vs most PE vechicles. Right now its 2 (like a Stuart that is an important counter to midgame PE) but it should be 1.5.
P.S
Someone said that Fireflies have longer fireing range than Marders.
The truth is Fireflies have shorter fireing range, they reload slower, and do less dmg than Marders. They have better spoting range (tank commander only upgrades spotting range - not gun range). Cromwell CT also dosnt upgrade Fireflies gun range nor its sight range. It does slightly (at vet 0, more at vet 2) upgrade gun and sight range of all other tanks.
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The Firefly has some interesting stats. I've just used Corsix's Mod Studio to have a look at the stats. For those who don't know them:
Range: 55 (compared to Marder: 60)
Accuracy: 0.85 at long, 1 at medium or lower (this is a bit better than Marder at medium/long)
Reload: 8.5 (nasty, but drops to 5.5 at long range. Still worse than Marder which is 4 at all ranges)
Damage: 125 (compared to Marder: 150)
The Command Tank gives bonuses of course, but I can't be bothered to check exactly what. The above stats are just for the guns, and don't take into account all the other odd little adjustments for target armour types.
@AdmV0rl0n - I think you make a decent point about the Stags and Fireflies. In fairness though, the Firefly still has a longer range than any other vehicle except I think the Marder. So against Wehrmacht there is still a range advantage (closest is Panther with 47.5). However, I think it's necessary to look deeper than individual units to find the problems with the Brits. The Kangaroo was OP, and I don't think the Bren Button inside vehicles was especially great either. Also, as a comment on the ultimate price of Kangaroos, you'll have infantry squads on the field anyway. So you aren't building them specially to go into the Kangaroos, and their cost doesn't really count, since they'll be capping and fighting until the Kangaroos are built.
As other people have said, the solution to a faction being UP in some areas is not for them to be OP in other areas. Could you highlight the weaknesses of the British faction please? I'd be interested to have your take on it (I don't play that much Brits).
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Stags should replace the Stuart. I don't know who was the genius who decided to replace the command tank in CoH code.
Also it should have an ability as it's brother T-17 or the Stuart that should replace.
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Stags should replace the Stuart. I don't know who was the genius who decided to replace the command tank in CoH code.
Also it should have an ability as it's brother T-17 or the Stuart that should replace.
If Stag was a replacement to Stuart than its HP should be nerfed. 300 HP (same as Stuart) is to low becouse it takes time to suppress infantry with an MG (unlike a canister shot) and UKs armor is weaker to shrecks than US. 350 (same as vet 1 T-17) would be fine.
The Command Tank gives bonuses of course, but I can't be bothered to check exactly what. The above stats are just for the guns, and don't take into account all the other odd little adjustments for target armour types.
Heres CCT vet stats:
http://picly.us/coh/Veterancy_Cromwell_Command_Tank.html (http://picly.us/coh/Veterancy_Cromwell_Command_Tank.html)
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If anyone is arguing that the Roo nerf was unjustified please uninstall and break your CoH disc. They were/are the most broken unit in CoH's history without a doubt.
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The Firefly has some interesting stats. I've just used Corsix's Mod Studio to have a look at the stats. For those who don't know them:
Range: 55 (compared to Marder: 60)
Accuracy: 0.85 at long, 1 at medium or lower (this is a bit better than Marder at medium/long)
Reload: 8.5 (nasty, but drops to 5.5 at long range. Still worse than Marder which is 4 at all ranges)
Damage: 125 (compared to Marder: 150)
The Command Tank gives bonuses of course, but I can't be bothered to check exactly what. The above stats are just for the guns, and don't take into account all the other odd little adjustments for target armour types.
@AdmV0rl0n - I think you make a decent point about the Stags and Fireflies. In fairness though, the Firefly still has a longer range than any other vehicle except I think the Marder. So against Wehrmacht there is still a range advantage (closest is Panther with 47.5). However, I think it's necessary to look deeper than individual units to find the problems with the Brits. The Kangaroo was OP, and I don't think the Bren Button inside vehicles was especially great either. Also, as a comment on the ultimate price of Kangaroos, you'll have infantry squads on the field anyway. So you aren't building them specially to go into the Kangaroos, and their cost doesn't really count, since they'll be capping and fighting until the Kangaroos are built.
As other people have said, the solution to a faction being UP in some areas is not for them to be OP in other areas. Could you highlight the weaknesses of the British faction please? I'd be interested to have your take on it (I don't play that much Brits).
You should. They are almost always an interesting, and yet can be frustrating faction to try and play.
Comments on what you've said. Infantry on the field. Well two points, they won't have too many at 450 per squad. And secondly, capping with them is difficult. Unless you weaken the squad into a sniper squad, anytime they walk into none allied terrory, they slow and become utterly immobile. Capping slowly AND being so expensive must be a comically sick joke. Anyway, getting back on the point, brits if trying to upgrade will always find the 450 manpower per inf squad hard to swallow, and they will usually have to expend resource on upgrading rather than inf.
By this early stage, the Germans in game are already out capping brit.
Early game the brit has to choose LT or Bren. And if they go bren, the early thinking was to harry the enemy with its potent mobility. Having now cast away your ability to get an LT until your next 250 manpower, - the germans are still pumping Out PIOS or bumping to next level, they get two pio squads for less than an LT anyway. At this stage some idiot has decided to nerf the bren carrier.
Anyway, if you go LT, early game you are still being out capped, because one squad and an LT can't close the pop cap level of the germans on WER, - PE is a bit closer, but PE out run the brits early if they get vehicles up. And their squads are only 255, 200 less than a brit inf squad. Both PE and WER are capable of out pop production, capping, and soon out upgrading the brit. The brit has to be competitive in capping enough to dig in.
By now the brit is trying to gather enough for the sapper truck. If it can be got out, he'll still lack fuel for the stuart.
If he deviates from officers at any early stage in spending, he will limit his upgrades. And if he wastes too much time on Brens now, they leave him over exposed and behind on upgrades.
At this stage, the brit is normally forced to dig in because the germans should nominally be harrying his limited units, and doing so with vehicles, bikes and similar. Having got ahead with early units, the germans should be capping and recapping as required and with ease.
Unless the brit has had an easy ride, he will not have been able to gather 450 for a squad of inf, and will probably be waiting (depends on fuel) for sappers, stuart, or maybe the capt.
Either way, the brits by now are likely very out matched numbers wise, and will have had to dig in somewhere with 280 per emplacement costs.
If the stuart can be gotten out early, it can harry the early german vehicles, half tracks, bikes and so on, and can blunt inf attacks. The stuart shot gun cart is nice, but you'll be hard pressed to find the ammo for it if you choose to upgun the now nerfed bren, which frankly was suppoed to be the original weapon for harrying and chasing down the german early game capping attempts.
If the game has devolved into an inf blobbing affair, the Germans should be out massing the brit anyway, and the first brit sniper squad is really seriously only combat ready in early game. Later game combat leaves them in poor shape.
Finally, the brit if he can scrape enough res from the game design of brit having less cap ability early game, he gets the final truck out. He'll probably at this stage not have got decent numbers of any particular troops or vehicles out.
A note on firefly's. Much has been said, but frankly FF's are no longer anything akin to what they should be. The 17 pounder is slow firing and with regular hilarity can't hit half the behicles, with Wer armoured cars being fantastically hard to hit. Its hopeless against AT, or in fact any inf, and against the late game tanks, it generally feels weak in most areas. Its also a 100 fuel, and beyond that, for all the talk of the stag, if someone buys into the stag, they just placed their FFs in a perenially poor game position where its no longer really anything more than average, and any tank combat in mid or close range is hilarious in general. So you tell me, would you now talk the weakend stag, or would you remove it and take the command tank.
I'm sure other players enjoy having pointless FFs being killed by Paks that are invisiible, while the FF misses, farts, and is generally crap as well as being nothing like the original awesome vehicle killer it was painted to be early on in COH.
Now, some players do inf blob with brits. And if you micro with LTs very well, it can be effective. But as far as I am concerned, both Wer and PE inf late game when vetted and kitted chew up brit inf. And frankly speaking the brit AT (sappers) is damaged in the same was as the INF in that they never offer capping ability because they will again become imobile in enemy territory.
The doctrines can sometimes help.
Eng doctrine may get you a churchill which in early and mid game does have bite. Not cheap and mental pop cap.
The arty doctrine makes the mortar pits powerful and on small maps can counter IMHO the bren nerfing. The 280 Per emplacement and a dent in head cap takkes some toll.
Airborne early game is harsh, because you either have to choose arty or the commandos, and each commando squad will be 560 or 510 post first glider.
The kangeroos - well here is my take. By mid game you may be able to make kangeroos. But I think only one or two. Not because of their cost, but beecause everything else - especially inf costs limit the brit. And he'll have top throw the kangeroos in to fend off the growing ger armour.
Usually this might mean two sapper squads and an LT. If anyone can load it fully with 320 + 75 ammo+ LT + 125 ammo+ 450 + whatever for brens or grenades - then they have done well anyway.
I have never ever seen a kangeroo ever delivery the weight of fire from loaded crews. Ever. You can load up 3x sappers + 75+75+75 and you'll only ever see 2 piat shells coming out, and if you park too close, no fire at all. The inf fire was never impressive and never forces GER to be surpressed if you blew 450 on it. Even with all this, the brit has probably loaded up most or perhaps all of his capping ability into one vehicle. Even via raiding, this loss is not a one way deal.
Even so, this will deal with most armour. But its not a game winning deal. Mines and AT weapons take a toll, and I am sorry, I fail to see at this point a kangeroo being a vehicle of death doom.
Late game, more roo's perhaps? But if so, a question would be, have you been letting the brit blob? With high inf costs, and high replacement costs, there is no real excuse for having been letting the brit blob.
By this stage, panthers are on the field, and panthers cost less than loaded roos. And thats before we talk about fully kitted Ger inf, which has better all round At abilities than the brits have (FF, 17 Pounder, and sappers?)
The raw truth is come late game, any faction ahead is able to field vehicles and troops of doom. And the likely thing is the stronger side at that stage of the game is going to be the likely side to do it. But from my perspective, the brits early game costs and severe limits place them in a difficult position from the early point, and they should always be under severe capping pressure if the germans get things right. The whining about roos and stags is partially understandable, but any weapon system in game may need counters not blunting, and just because you have to find counters to the threats should not mean 'Nerf it'.
Anyone who can must 240+320+450 +75ammo+125ammo+ more ammo, and do so in several vehicles costing several times as much, is doing well. Someone said early that people will eject the crews before they die and retreat them. This is simple good play and not OP. But its rare that a kangeroo properly caught ejects all its crew and they get away with no losses. Each time the brits have the heaviest cost in replacements for any loss taken.
In terms of the nerf of kangeroo, I've said in several places, I understand it, but not by itself. If you are going to nerf it, it has to be with some more general rebalances of the brits.
Post Merge: August 05, 2010, 02:04:27 AM
Stags should replace the Stuart. I don't know who was the genius who decided to replace the command tank in CoH code.
Also it should have an ability as it's brother T-17 or the Stuart that should replace.
If Stag was a replacement to Stuart than its HP should be nerfed. 300 HP (same as Stuart) is to low becouse it takes time to suppress infantry with an MG (unlike a canister shot) and UKs armor is weaker to shrecks than US. 350 (same as vet 1 T-17) would be fine.
The Command Tank gives bonuses of course, but I can't be bothered to check exactly what. The above stats are just for the guns, and don't take into account all the other odd little adjustments for target armour types.
Heres CCT vet stats:
http://picly.us/coh/Veterancy_Cromwell_Command_Tank.html (http://picly.us/coh/Veterancy_Cromwell_Command_Tank.html)
How is the stag a stuart replacement? Where are some of you heading with this? The stag comes out of the final brit upgrade, and has cost them 250 LT and 300 Captain, and 185 and 205 to get here, and you're saying all it should do is screw the brit range (cos you now have no command tank), get nerfed to being a stuart, and have its late game anti inf ability squashed.
That IS a 50cal gun mounted on it, and its meant to be meaty.
Hey, why don't you take the wheels off it too, and put a bren on top instead of the 50 cal.
Post Merge: August 05, 2010, 02:07:06 AM
If anyone is arguing that the Roo nerf was unjustified please uninstall and break your CoH disc. They were/are the most broken unit in CoH's history without a doubt.
Lets see if the change helps. I still suspect you and those like you will still be squeeling in 3 months time for more nerfs.
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@AdmV0rl0n
The Stuart and the Staghound have almost the same stats. I don't know what make you think that the latter is better than the former. And you will get the command tank and the staghound with -100HP, a worthy sacrifice... and you could stop crying about have to choose just one of them to use. Forget about where it comes, that's BS, the command tank should not be replaced because it's the only unit that benefits british tanks and allows them to perform better.
I don't want to discuss about most of the infantry that rides in the kangaroo is already deployed when you begin to construct those tanks because it's an endless loop.
Perhaps in future versions more fixes come to the british side, I'm looking forward, but looks like you aren't. Because you underestimate EF Team and believes that everything they do to the brits it's a nerf.
...
* Staghound MG Gunner is now in line with other MG Gunners.
(Not sure, Nerf?)
* Increase delay of Forward Observation Officers (FOO) from 2.0 to 2.75 seconds. (Nerf )
* PIAT accuracy vs infantry reduced. (Nerf, seems like a very one sided deal about now.. :/ )
* Sappers now has wire cutters. (Nerf, I blow up sand bags and barb with piats in needed, and you've robbed the sappers of the ambush)
* Bren Carrier now receives double damage while repairing. (Nerf, the bren already stops firing when repairing which was bad enough)
...
And besides you feel insulted, Budwise spoken the truth.
If anyone is arguing that the Roo nerf was unjustified please uninstall and break your CoH disc. They were/are the most broken unit in CoH's history without a doubt.
+1.
@Zerstörer
Thank you very much, for an unknown reason yesterday I didn't saw your post :D!!
While dreaming about the Stag replacing the Stuart, it could have an armored skirts-like-upgrade to give them +100HP or something like the phosphorus rounds to stun a tank(due the nerfing of the infantry section bren button), I think that suits better to the brits than US.
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The Staghound would surely make more sense as a Stuart replacement. The only thing making it worthwhile was the broken .50 cal.
Lowering its health from 450 to 300 and it would be just about good to go I think.
Its drastic I know, but its obviously not suited for CCT replacement (never was), and it isn't worthwhile there anymore. Might be the only way to balance it.
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The problem with brits is that they don't have many choices
And whatever choices they do have are being "balanced" by the "developers" and "balance experts"
"A thief is a thief whether he's trying to make a living or trying to earn some extra money"
note : do not take literally
Firefly was my favourite TD till now , but with the introduction of the comet i thhink the comet is better
In a 1 vs 1 match of marder vs FF , the FF always wins due to its armor and better penetration
Lets see whtever "balance" changes are made to the brits in the future ::)
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@AdmV0rl0n
The Stuart and the Staghound have almost the same stats. I don't know what make you think that the latter is better than the former. And you will get the command tank and the staghound with -100HP, a worthy sacrifice... and you could stop crying about have to choose just one of them to use. Forget about where it comes, that's BS, the command tank should not be replaced because it's the only unit that benefits british tanks and allows them to perform better.
I don't want to discuss about most of the infantry that rides in the kangaroo is already deployed when you begin to construct those tanks because it's an endless loop.
Perhaps in future versions more fixes come to the british side, I'm looking forward, but looks like you aren't. Because you underestimate EF Team and believes that everything they do to the brits it's a nerf.
...
* Staghound MG Gunner is now in line with other MG Gunners.
(Not sure, Nerf?)
* Increase delay of Forward Observation Officers (FOO) from 2.0 to 2.75 seconds. (Nerf )
* PIAT accuracy vs infantry reduced. (Nerf, seems like a very one sided deal about now.. :/ )
* Sappers now has wire cutters. (Nerf, I blow up sand bags and barb with piats in needed, and you've robbed the sappers of the ambush)
* Bren Carrier now receives double damage while repairing. (Nerf, the bren already stops firing when repairing which was bad enough)
...
And besides you feel insulted, Budwise spoken the truth.
If anyone is arguing that the Roo nerf was unjustified please uninstall and break your CoH disc. They were/are the most broken unit in CoH's history without a doubt.
+1.
@Zerstörer
Thank you very much, for an unknown reason yesterday I didn't saw your post :D!!
While dreaming about the Stag replacing the Stuart, it could have an armored skirts-like-upgrade to give them +100HP or something like the phosphorus rounds to stun a tank(due the nerfing of the infantry section bren button), I think that suits better to the brits than US.
No, you don't want to discuss the infantry, which costs the brit faction a fortune, and will be lesser in number than other factions and have a crippled capping ability. Thats obvious from the start.
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No, you don't want to discuss the infantry, which costs the brit faction a fortune, and will be lesser in number than other factions and have a crippled capping ability. That's obvious from the start.
Just wow, I can't be bothered quoting everything ignorant you have said, but this will do to convey my message.
Your statement is just stupendously ignorant and bias. You talk about all the cons and leave out the fact that Brit infantry have Soldier Armour and on top of that do good damage as well. SO GUESS WAT!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o, they don't need to be super cheap and super fast cappers. Its called balance. SHOCK HORROR!!!!
AdmV0rl0n your just a winger, you point out all the negatives that hinder your linear play style and ignore the opinion of experienced players. I seriously suggest you step back for a second, read peoples posts twice, think about where they are coming from with their points, and take it in.
Lastly I suggest before you post you re-read it, think about what you are about to post, then highlight it, delete it, log off the forum and go put your hand under an iron to punish yourself for ever thinking you could contribute to an intellectual forum.
Peace
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AdmV0rl0n, just had myself a gander at your stats and lols were had. Play something other than brit skirmishes if you ever want to contribute to a balance forum again.
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No, you don't want to discuss the infantry, which costs the brit faction a fortune, and will be lesser in number than other factions and have a crippled capping ability. That's obvious from the start.
Just wow, I can't be bothered quoting everything ignorant you have said, but this will do to convey my message.
Your statement is just stupendously ignorant and bias. You talk about all the cons and leave out the fact that Brit infantry have Soldier Armour and on top of that do good damage as well. SO GUESS WAT!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o, they don't need to be super cheap and super fast cappers. Its called balance. SHOCK HORROR!!!!
Noone said nothing about a capping unit like Pios or kettens.
Tommies dmg is worst than volks. What good dmg?
The fact is that UK has the lowest number of units on the field and cant outproduce axis untill Cromwells apear.
UK also cannot outcap any fraction.
Kinkas, you dont know what youre talking about.
Lastly I suggest before you post you re-read it, think about what you are about to post, then highlight it, delete it, log off the forum and go put your hand under an iron to punish yourself for ever thinking you could contribute to an intellectual forum.
Talking to youreself?
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I'm pretty sure he's talking about brenned tommies, who provide immense dps. And Brits are obviously very map dependent with their capping ability.
This thread should end. A new thread should begin with the new proposed changes including moving the stag to be a stuart replacement while reducing it's health. But remember, no major rebalances are going to happen. Brits will be eternally broken due to factors we've already discussed to death Paciat. The best we can hope for is a reasonably balanced faction that's less map dependent than it currently is and has no glaring OP/UP units or abilities.
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The comet is a "tier 3 unit of doom" , it can destroy most german armor at "Standard Combat Ranges"
Dont you think so??
Post Merge: August 05, 2010, 01:34:31 PM
The comet is a "tier 3 unit of doom" , it can destroy most german armor at "Standard Combat Ranges"
Dont you think so??
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Witty Paciat, you have devolved into schoolyard comebacks.... But I am flattered you see my comment fit to use against me.
The good damage comment was general and you made it specific to starting forces, if you had a brain you would understand late game British infantry are very strong. Maybe it was my fault for assuming we were all on beginner level intelligence and higher. Also British can't cap very fast but that doesn't mean that they won't have map control.
And once again you argue a bias one sided point to make it seem as if you are correct. Jesus Christ, if there is a problem explain it in its exact specific entirety. i.e I think that British infantry that have been vet stacked are to hard to kill for the amount of damage they output**. See how I didn't list every disadvantage and narrowed it down to an actual point of information. Its a basic way to explain and debate a point, which many people on this forum are incapable of doing.
As Dennis said this thread is basically over, say what you will, but I think this a issue best settled on the battlefield. If you feel up to it add Kinkasthered, its my EF testing account. I will be up for a game XD.
**THIS IS AN EXAMPLE, DO NOT TRY AND ARGUE THIS POINT AS IT IS AN EXAMPLE. IN NO WAY OR FORM DOES IT REPRESENT A VIEW OR OPINION, OR GIVE ENTITLEMENT TO DISCUSSION ON THE AM-MENTIONED POINT WHICH IS AN EXAMPLE.
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Witty Paciat, you have devolved into schoolyard comebacks.... But I am flattered you see my comment fit to use against me.
The good damage comment was general and you made it specific to starting forces, if you had a brain you would understand late game British infantry are very strong.Maybe it was my fault for assuming we were all on beginner level intelligence and higher. Also British can't cap very fast but that doesn't mean that they won't have map control.
300MP Vet 2 shreck squad beats a 450MP Tommy squad.
You are dumb if you dont understand that Wehrmacht is the strongest of all late game fractions.
PE MP44 dont care if they kill infantry or Soldiers armor and Commando Stens are weak vs anything but infantry armor.
And once again you argue a bias one sided point to make it seem as if you are correct. Jesus Christ, if there is a problem explain it in its exact specific entirety. i.e I think that British infantry that have been vet stacked are to hard to kill for the amount of damage they output**.
As Ive said before, Tommies have dmg than Volks. Understand now?
You cant expect that a Tommy squad with an LT - 730MP! - will die to a Volks squad. Thats why they have armor that is allmost as good as german elite type armor.
Just build youre blob or drop arti on them or place mines.
Wehrmacht has the most choices of all fractions while PE is the ultimate blob forming fraction.
See how I didn't list every disadvantage and narrowed it down to an actual point of information. Its a basic way to explain and debate a point, which many people on this forum are incapable of doing.
You didnt list nothing.
How about backing youre dumb comments with any stats.
Can you that?
As Dennis said...
The big German lover Dennis. At least he knows something (pretty much I must say).
His posts make sence.
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AdmV0rl0n, just had myself a gander at your stats and lols were had. Play something other than brit skirmishes if you ever want to contribute to a balance forum again.
Please, post my stats.
If you find someone else who knows the brits like I do, and maybe one day when you can compare, you can speak again.
Post Merge: August 05, 2010, 02:50:21 PM
No, you don't want to discuss the infantry, which costs the brit faction a fortune, and will be lesser in number than other factions and have a crippled capping ability. That's obvious from the start.
Just wow, I can't be bothered quoting everything ignorant you have said, but this will do to convey my message.
Your statement is just stupendously ignorant and bias. You talk about all the cons and leave out the fact that Brit infantry have Soldier Armour and on top of that do good damage as well. SO GUESS WAT!!!!! :o :o :o :o :o :o, they don't need to be super cheap and super fast cappers. Its called balance. SHOCK HORROR!!!!
AdmV0rl0n your just a winger, you point out all the negatives that hinder your linear play style and ignore the opinion of experienced players. I seriously suggest you step back for a second, read peoples posts twice, think about where they are coming from with their points, and take it in.
Lastly I suggest before you post you re-read it, think about what you are about to post, then highlight it, delete it, log off the forum and go put your hand under an iron to punish yourself for ever thinking you could contribute to an intellectual forum.
Peace
Good damage against what? The only good damage the first squad do is in first contact. Period. And usually only if the sniper shot is used. This takes place in one contact area on the map. This equates to one capping point that is contested. In the mean time, All the PIO or Ketten ground being swallowed up continues.
The bren squad might do good damage, but guess what, wait 450 for that, and try to find the ammo for the bren, then walk it across enemy territory - which this supposed heavy squad do more slowly than any other squad in game.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and you posted your idiotic posting as part of some pathetic joke.
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@Kinkas beg me pardon, but your abusing behaviour dont belong to "an intellectual forum" as your own words are. Be constructive and when someone doesnt share your beliefs it doesnt mean he needs to "put his hand under an iron"! If im right this is a discussion and in this type of conversation every man can post freely what he has on his mind without being abused!
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Someone should lock this thread. This isn't a conversation anymore. Sorry, but this is a flaming/bitching- and a I-know-much-more-than-you thread.
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Yes lock this thread
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Listen up children...as the volks saying goes...
Play nice or this gets locked.
You want to make a balance argument, do it nicely. No personal attacks and no flaming.Debate the argument not the individual.
Also, no back sit moderating. If there is an issue, report it and we'll deal with it if necessary.
These are simple rules follow, so please make sure you do
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whats "back sit moderating" ? and how is it done?
Edit:and stick to the subject!
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AdmV0rl0n, just had myself a gander at your stats and lols were had. Play something other than brit skirmishes if you ever want to contribute to a balance forum again.
Please, post my stats.
If you find someone else who knows the brits like I do, and maybe one day when you can compare, you can speak again.
Alright I will.
~400 basic matches as Brits
~400 skirmishes as Brits
A few allies 2v2s, no doubt as Brits
A couple games as the other factions.
Clearly you have a massive bias towards the Brits, and almost never play against them. About 50% of your games are skirmishes which erodes your position further and you practically never play 1v1 Automatch which is recognised as the main game type that facilitates balancing. As I've said many times thus far, you can't have any impartial argument because of your biased position.
I have personally reached position 60 in Brit 1v1 Automatches without trying for a lengthy period of time, and without kangs or Bren-in-Bren. I've also probably played far more basic matches as them than I can count but these don't matter because they're basic matches. I believe this particular account (GodlikeDennis) is 23-3 in Brit 1v1 Automatches. I would say a comparison between you and I is fairly one sided in the experience department.
As Dennis said...
The big German lover Dennis. At least he knows something (pretty much I must say).
His posts make sence.
This is untrue, but you are entitled to your opinion. I play all factions equally. This is the pot calling the kettle black, Paciat, as you yourself are quite Brit biased. I don't mind debating with you though.
You are discussing tommies vs grens in a vaccuum. The Brit blob will have FOO and other arty support to kill an enemy blob arrayed against it. Bren guns are strong against even elite armour grens and the vet stacking is a big problem that I wish were fixed. This isn't to say that I disagree that Wehrmacht doesn't have the strongest troops endgame but that Brits have more factors that can even the odds than Wehrmacht.
Brens also come far earlier than Wehr endgame, obviously. It's similar to getting BARs before Wehr has vet 2, it makes the infantry fighting somewhat one sided. Only good use of the MGs can let the Wehr player match an allied faction at this stage.
Commandos weren't mentioned for a reason. I'm sure you and I both agree that they don't scale at all.
I think you and Kinkas should duke it out ingame rather than here.
This thread has run it's useful life. You should just close it now Zerst.
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I'll just watch and looooooool
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300MP Vet 2 shreck squad beats a 450MP Tommy squad.
You are dumb if you dont understand that Wehrmacht is the strongest of all late game fractions.
PE MP44 dont care if they kill infantry or Soldiers armor and Commando Stens are weak vs anything but infantry armor.
If the Grens get a shrek the tommies get bren guns and if the grens get vet, the tommies get a lieutenant. It’s illogical to compare two different things that have different costs. As I said earlier and repeat for the third time, you are posting bias information just to support your belief. And once again repeating for you benefit, I said a general statement using a general work “good” not “the best’ or “excellent” or “the worst” or “crap”. Your picking at straws.
As Ive said before, Tommies have dmg than Volks. Understand now?
You cant expect that a Tommy squad with an LT - 730MP! - will die to a Volks squad. Thats why they have armor that is allmost as good as german elite type armor.
Just build youre blob or drop arti on them or place mines.
Wehrmacht has the most choices of all fractions while PE is the ultimate blob forming fraction.
You didnt list nothing.
How about backing youre dumb comments with any stats.
Can you that?
Wow man, I left this huge disclaimer at the end of that saying that it was a pure example to avoid this exact situation, it was the first idea that came to mind from a topic I had recently read. And please read that part of my post again, the purpose of that was to NOT list something but bring light to making an argument relevant and to the point. Seriously read what I said, before the flaming me. I admit the previous post was just an outburst, but it was something that needs to be said. Read someone’s post twice if it seems outrageous and try to find a sensible meaning to it. It annoys me so much, how people just take stats and comments out of context to prove a point which is strategy problem not a balance issue.
Good damage against what? The only good damage the first squad do is in first contact. Period. And usually only if the sniper shot is used. This takes place in one contact area on the map. This equates to one capping point that is contested. In the mean time, All the PIO or Ketten ground being swallowed up continues.
The bren squad might do good damage, but guess what, wait 450 for that, and try to find the ammo for the bren, then walk it across enemy territory - which this supposed heavy squad do more slowly than any other squad in game.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and you posted your idiotic posting as part of some pathetic joke.
Actually I personally find it quite easy to find the munitions for a bren squad I am assuming we are talking (early-midgame), for many upgraded squads I must say. I also use the lieutenant to help them move around the map as well as moving my trucks a fair way up to provide less of a distance traveled. I believe your problem is related to your game style more than a balance issue. Try watching some replays of the really high end Brit players and watch out specifically how they solve your predicament. And dude, from what I read of yourself, I think the same thing. Thus the outburst, you seem to ignore valuable comments from the more experienced players. Constructively I really do suggest you look at a different strategy.
@Kinkas beg me pardon, but your abusing behaviour dont belong to "an intellectual forum" as your own words are. Be constructive and when someone doesnt share your beliefs it doesnt mean he needs to "put his hand under an iron"! If im right this is a discussion and in this type of conversation every man can post freely what he has on his mind without being abused!
Actually in self defense, the post was aimed at a how you construct a post not on a personal opinion on a post. I used an example of a post, on how he used it for bias. It’s actually impossible to critise anyone on a forum without out them bursting out. So why stop at constructive criticism? Yes it was crude, but it’s nothing short of what needs to be said. If for one second he just stands back reads his post and go, “ok this is why they call me a Brit-Fanboy”. “This is why they call me stupid.” It’s because he is omitting relevant information. And seriously I added a huge obnoxious in your face way of saying something was not my opinion and someone still commented on it. So yes they need to be told, they need to stop taking things out of context, and my previous post proves they do. Everything I say in this post particular post is constructive. But I assure you, not one of them will take it in their stride, they will defend themselves by attacking me. Because to them this is not a discussion, it is a defense of themselves. I do apoligise for the iron comment as it is uncalled for, though I stand by my point that they keep using bias information and wonder why people call them stupid or a fan-boy. I actually would like to see Paciat and AdmV0rl0n in a lot of discussions, but not when you just pull things out of context for the sake of having to be right.
I also understand this post was not all on topic of balance. But his was needed to clear the air as to the point of my comments and to provide it in a less defamatory way to the people I originally critisied.
And yes my throwing down of the gauntlet still applies if you wish to show me ingame the errors of my logic ;D
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You are discussing tommies vs grens in a vaccuum. The Brit blob will have FOO and other arty support to kill an enemy blob arrayed against it. Bren guns are strong against even elite armour grens and the vet stacking is a big problem that I wish were fixed. This isn't to say that I disagree that Wehrmacht doesn't have the strongest troops endgame but that Brits have more factors that can even the odds than Wehrmacht.
Brens also come far earlier than Wehr endgame, obviously. It's similar to getting BARs before Wehr has vet 2, it makes the infantry fighting somewhat one sided. Only good use of the MGs can let the Wehr player match an allied faction at this stage.
BRENs are weaker than lets say BARs and have no suppresion. I would rather compare BRENs (its firepower) to MP40 than to LMG42.
The truth is Wechrmacht needs to be defensive at early stage of the game but UK player needs to do a lot of things with only few of his units.
...Im not saing that you cant play UK Dennis, Im saing that you want German being stronger than allies both in early and late game.
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I'm not going to argue brens vs MP40s with you again but you're certainly downplaying the bren's power.
Ideally I'd like all factions to be equally powerful at EVERY stage of the game.
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I'm not going to argue brens vs MP40s with you again but you're certainly downplaying the bren's power.
I know that you know that MP40 have slightly better short and medium range accuracy while doing the same dmg. Only the more accurate long range fire (both BRENs and Endfields) and their thicker skin saves Tommies expensive asses.
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I see a lot of Brit-biased noobs talking about balance here. I hope the devs don't listen to these guys. I'll bet most of them aren't even ranked; yet they talk the most on these boards. I am especially looking at, but not limited to, the noob fanboy AbhMkh.
I will not waste my time explaining why I presume they are noob etc; it shouldn't be that hard to realize, judging from all the garbage written here. I'm not going to respond to any of them, so don't waste your breathes, just wanted to get my notion out there. That is all.
Devs, before you ban this post for flaming, please understand that it is impossible to reason / talk balance with ignorant noobs, hence there is no reasoning in my post, just the hard facts about who is talking with nonsense and needs to stop posting on the balance boards.
On a side note: The Maurder really does need a faster rotation speed, and better vehicle pathing, and perhaps the T3 upgrade to unlock it could cost a little less, since a fast Soviet Sherman or a T70 could potentially end the game right away if you don't have at least 2 of them.
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Lol chancellor, I traveled your path a few posts back hahah, its a no through road basically.
But on the point of the Maurder I agree with you 100% about the rotation speed, but as to how fast you unlock it I am not so sure. It takes a lot more fuel for the Russians to get a stock standard tank and the summon in Sherman leaves much to be desired. Also if you decrease its time to be deployed into a match, it could have great consequences on both American and Brit balance with their lighter vehicles.
I suggest however the increase in rotation and a decrease in build time possibly to help match the rapid deployment of allied tanks.
Thoughts?
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AdmV0rl0n, just had myself a gander at your stats and lols were had. Play something other than brit skirmishes if you ever want to contribute to a balance forum again.
Please, post my stats.
If you find someone else who knows the brits like I do, and maybe one day when you can compare, you can speak again.
Alright I will.
~400 basic matches as Brits
~400 skirmishes as Brits
A few allies 2v2s, no doubt as Brits
A couple games as the other factions.
Clearly you have a massive bias towards the Brits, and almost never play against them. About 50% of your games are skirmishes which erodes your position further and you practically never play 1v1 Automatch which is recognised as the main game type that facilitates balancing. As I've said many times thus far, you can't have any impartial argument because of your biased position.
I have personally reached position 60 in Brit 1v1 Automatches without trying for a lengthy period of time, and without kangs or Bren-in-Bren. I've also probably played far more basic matches as them than I can count but these don't matter because they're basic matches. I believe this particular account (GodlikeDennis) is 23-3 in Brit 1v1 Automatches. I would say a comparison between you and I is fairly one sided in the experience department.
As Dennis said...
The big German lover Dennis. At least he knows something (pretty much I must say).
His posts make sence.
This is untrue, but you are entitled to your opinion. I play all factions equally. This is the pot calling the kettle black, Paciat, as you yourself are quite Brit biased. I don't mind debating with you though.
You are discussing tommies vs grens in a vaccuum. The Brit blob will have FOO and other arty support to kill an enemy blob arrayed against it. Bren guns are strong against even elite armour grens and the vet stacking is a big problem that I wish were fixed. This isn't to say that I disagree that Wehrmacht doesn't have the strongest troops endgame but that Brits have more factors that can even the odds than Wehrmacht.
Brens also come far earlier than Wehr endgame, obviously. It's similar to getting BARs before Wehr has vet 2, it makes the infantry fighting somewhat one sided. Only good use of the MGs can let the Wehr player match an allied faction at this stage.
Commandos weren't mentioned for a reason. I'm sure you and I both agree that they don't scale at all.
I think you and Kinkas should duke it out ingame rather than here.
This thread has run it's useful life. You should just close it now Zerst.
When I said post my stats, I did not say post a version of my stats so that you can play the idiot while blatantly lying, for no valid reason. Next time, - as with this thread, post the full story. I'm not bothering with every stat, but here:
Won 991 Games.
Lost 881 Games.
Shall we add your inability to count to your other failings, or would that be too harsh? I think you'll find people who have played the game closing in on 2000 times knowedgable enough to express opinions.
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Chancellor my friend i wont reply to your post , because it would be getting indecent at this point , nevertheless i would appreciate, you , maintaining a control over what you say and who do you call a noob , i'd rather not call you one , savvy?
note : Most of the players on this forum started playing COH since the release of COHOF , because that is when COH became popular........
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@AdmV0rl0n
You should calm down, even if you have 5000 matches, if you mostly play with one faction, any argument can be considered "biased".
Of course you will find people that played CoH a lot and hence share it's opinion. Everyone is encouraged to do it. But there are limits about what a person can do. The differences between that "expert people" and you are:
1) You are clearly biased and don't accept any argument besides yours as true.
2) I have no doubt that you have knowledge about brits, but do you have experience with the other factions to judge about what can be improved to Brits without break havoc?
3) Sometimes the common sense helps to deal with balance even if you haven't played a thousand matches.
So how many matches do you played without brits? Do you think this type of knowedge will help to improve them?
I'm no expert, not near to be one, but the kangaroo was OP and was fixed; the staghound mg was bugged and was fixed, and many others that you listed in your first post were accurate. I'm not against brits, in fact I like them as all the other factions in CoH. Sure they need a lot of tweaks but the kangaroo is fine as in 1.21.
I thought that the MuniHT ability to reinforce will be causing more disapointment than the kang nerf, we almost reach 7 pages discussing the same nonsense arguments. In conclusion, those changes were needed, if you don't like it you have several choices:
a) Continue playing besides this, you'll adapt to this soon, I'm sure.
b) Stop playing EF and return to CoH or others mods.
c) Modify the kangaroo and cia. stats to make them as before, but you won't be able to play with anyone else besides skirmishes.
d) Write on this thread and many others about your balance ideas until Devs implement them.
But whatever you do isn't gonna make difference between the changes already implemented and those that will occur in a near future.
@AbhMkh
You are quite right ;D... I began with COH but my graphic card at that time, radeon 9250, wasn't enough, i couldn't saw the units deployed(were invisible), so I quit; by the time that ToV was released I bought a new PC, and bought OF because I hear of it more than ToV.
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When I said post my stats, I did not say post a version of my stats so that you can play the idiot while blatantly lying, for no valid reason. Next time, - as with this thread, post the full story. I'm not bothering with every stat, but here:
Won 991 Games.
Lost 881 Games.
Shall we add your inability to count to your other failings, or would that be too harsh? I think you'll find people who have played the game closing in on 2000 times knowledgeable enough to express opinions.
LOL, you actually think 991 for 881 ~ KD of 1.12 is good. Dennis did you a favor and only listed you games played. Not your extremely average game score. Just because you play a lot doesn't mean you are any good. For instance I would take choose a partner 10 for 2 in auto matches over you. Fair be it, it might be a testing account, but still nothing to go posting on a forum to show off about.
If you think you are so wonderful and are the epitome of experience come vs. me (add me KinkastheRed).... But no of course you will not. Dennis has challenged me already; maybe we could make this interesting and get Paciat in as well? In reality your spurting theory about a game, we have the ability to play the game, so lets put these theories into action. Win or lose it will be fun.
So AdmV0rl0n this is your chance to play axis and show us that you obtain a wealth of experience from all factions. If you choose not to play I really can't see how anyone here can actually take you seriously again.... If they ever did.... You dug yourself a grave here buddy, by a year 1 level maths analysis Dennis still flogs your hide in experience and overall equality of game time between each faction. So stand by your inferior stats or prove to us your better than people think.
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I think I was quite clear about NOT attacking each other gents and only attacking the argument :(
It is a balance forum and everyone has an opinion, be they new or experienced players. The problem is few people actually listen to the argument and get something out of it...and we're all guilty of that from time to time.
Making a discussion doesn't have to devolve to personal attacks to make a point. In fact any valid point is usually lost amidst all these keyboard fights. Learn to debate propertly
Someone playing the last 4 yrs with US can be a great player and have great stats with it, however his views will always be bias and lacking a balanced view of the factions. If you don't play all the factions to the same degree roughly you're unlikely to ever see the points of the other side.
Its one of the things that separates 'experts' from the rest...along with their gaming ability of course and invariably stupendously good micro.
Newer players should always listen a bit more to the better players cause that's the way to get better.
Now, as this has devolved into a pissing contest and the thread is no longer salvageable unless I delete half your posts, its locked. Lesson learnt for any future ones, I hope!
Cheers!