Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Announcements (Read-Only) => Announcements => Topic started by: Blackbishop on December 08, 2010, 12:15:17 AM

Title: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 08, 2010, 12:15:17 AM
Happy Holidays Eastern Front Fans!

Today we shall unveil a feature of the upcoming 1.30 patch (formerly known as 1.24)...The Royal Marines Commandos.

Marines Commando Squad
(http://i52.tinypic.com/ru4ta0.jpg)

M10 Achilles
(http://i54.tinypic.com/34j57h5.jpg)

Marine Sappers
(http://i52.tinypic.com/23vkfw6.jpg)

SAS Raiders
(http://i51.tinypic.com/21o8zo1.jpg)

As you might know, every faction has two EF reward units, except for PE and Brits who have one each. You'll also know that EF Team applied some ideas from experts at GameReplays.org (http://www.gamereplays.org/portals.php) to improve balance. However, it would seem that the British need more than just balance changes, they are broken from the roots up.

When I said " need more than just balance changes" I meant that trying to modify the Commonwealth to find balance and, finally, extensive player interest, would require extensive changes; a complete rebuild from their current situation, almost totally replacing Relic's original Army, a policy which EF has always been against.

So, we have a surprise for you!
We give you an "additional" British faction, this time with improved faction design - giving players more of what they enjoy from vanilla sides; while holding true to Commonwealth uniqueness!

The
Royal Marines Commandos Brigade

All Changes to the Commonwealth faction are togglable through a single optional Reward "unit".

Teching Changes

Buildings can now be built at any time; they do not require an officer anymore. Also, you acquire all units from all buildings without the need of an officer.

Truck lock down sectors, but do not gain additional resources unless an upgrade is researched.

HQ truck
Units available: Marines Commando Squad, Lieutenant, Marine Sapper.

New Building added to the tech tree.
SAS Forward Command
 - Like an HQ glider but can only land on friendly territory.
 - Cost: 220 manpower 45 fuel.
 - Units available: Bren Carrier, SAS Raiders, SAS Recon Jeeps, SAS Light Support Jeeps.

Field Support truck
 - Cost: 385 manpower 95 fuel.
 - Units available: Staghound, Captain, Achilles.

Armour Command Truck
 - Cost: 605 manpower 145 fuel.
 - Units available: Cromwell Tank, Cromwell Command Tank, Comet Tank.


New Units

Marines Commando Squad:
 - Regular infantry section with normal movement but unable to make trenches.
 - Cost lowered to 375 manpower.
 - Reinforce cost percentage increased.
 - Recon element now:
 - - Camouflage when in cover like PE Falls.
 - - Sharpshooter ability remains.
 - - Increased Accuracy.
 - - Decreased Cooldown.
 - - Increased Capture Rate.
 - - Reduces health by 5hp per man
 - Recon Element cost increased from 35 munitions to 50 munitions.


Marine Engineers:
 - Regular sapper squad with normal movement but unable to build trenches.
 - Other defenses become available for construction when the Captain has been deployed.

SAS Raiders:
 - Basically 4 Tommies with 3 Thompsons and 1 PIAT.
 - Fast capping speed and cost 375 manpower.

SAS Recon Jeeps:
 - 2 Jeeps in a squad (1 with .50 cal).
 - Cost 450 manpower.
 - They have -30% received accuracy as standard.
 - Can detect as normal jeeps.

SAS Light Support Jeeps:
 - 2 Jeeps in a squad. Armed with recoilless rifles.
 - Cost 350 manpower.
 - Cannot detect.

Achilles TD:
 - M10 with long range, 17pdr gun.
 - Cost 380 manpower 75 fuel.

Veterancy Change

The lieutenants bonuses is not stackable.

Starting Resources Change

Commonwealth starting resources lowered from 460 manpower, 15 fuel, 25 munitions to 375 manpower, 15 fuel, 0 munitions.

Remember to vote for EF in ModDB Mod of the Year Award!! (http://www.moddb.com/events/2010-mod-of-the-year-awards/top100#vote9675)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Strayker on December 08, 2010, 12:26:51 AM
Well this is something...so now there will be 4 allied factions? Anyway keep up the good work. 8)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Tico_1990 on December 08, 2010, 12:29:45 AM
Will this 'new faction' be an add-on doctrine for the brits, or a complete stand alone?
Either way, nice work :)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: TacticalNuke on December 08, 2010, 12:30:57 AM
This is amazing! Two thumbs way up!
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 08, 2010, 12:40:57 AM
Will this 'new faction' be an add-on doctrine for the brits, or a complete stand alone?
Either way, nice work :)
Neither of them, will act as reward unit but will change the normal units of the brits, the doctrines aren't going to be changed. You can choose if you use this faction or not like you decide to use or not the comet tank.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Keromalas on December 08, 2010, 01:29:12 AM
The new British changes look great. I hope this didn't take production time away from the Soviet tweaks and Ostheer design.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 08, 2010, 02:41:37 AM
The new British changes look great. I hope this didn't take production time away from the Soviet tweaks and Ostheer design.
Without animators I don't think we can do a lot of things for the ostheer ::)...
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: ReckLESS on December 08, 2010, 05:46:17 AM
All this was known to donators for some time already ;)

Also, will you "dare" (and win) to change vanilla brits in this fashion after some time, if RMC will be accepted among players?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Paciat on December 08, 2010, 07:28:44 AM
Quote
- 2 Jeeps in a squad. Armed with recoilless rifles.
 - Cost 350 manpower.
[\quote]
Seems OP too me. No fuel cost?
How will the 2 jeep squad work? Will they be 2 seperate jeeps that are just build together?

Who will bother too build BREN carriers? They will be obsolete when British reach T2.

What will the new fraction spend ammo on?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Chancellor on December 08, 2010, 07:42:25 AM
I suggest that if this method of play becomes popular enough, the Brits should just be totally replaced or integrated into this play style.  Do you DARE to?   :P  Slow (un-tactical) move speed that forced LT vet stacking, trenches,  etc etc were always the bane of CoH, and its awesome to see someone actually trying to fix this.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: revoluzer on December 08, 2010, 09:26:49 AM
Wow that a really great news and in my eyes it would be even more epic, if you would add them as 4th allied faction, as their nearly no restrictions anymore. I don't know, how big the difference is between total redo a faction and adding a new one...

If you choose Comet as reward unit, how will this interact with the RMC Comet?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Ganoya on December 08, 2010, 09:41:33 AM
Very Nice =)
I hope to see this patch soon ^^
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Rikard Blixt on December 08, 2010, 09:56:42 AM
All this was known to donators for some time already ;)

Also, will you "dare" (and win) to change vanilla brits in this fashion after some time, if RMC will be accepted among players?
We'll see.

Quote
- 2 Jeeps in a squad. Armed with recoilless rifles.
 - Cost 350 manpower.
Seems OP too me. No fuel cost?
How will the 2 jeep squad work? Will they be 2 seperate jeeps that are just build together?

Who will bother too build BREN carriers? They will be obsolete when British reach T2.

What will the new fraction spend ammo on?
The Jeeps are 2 that are issued commands together, like 2 squad members of a squad. However, no 'reinforcements'.

The jeeps die really really easy. They have about (the same?) health as a normal USA jeeps, so heavier vehicles takes them down pretty quickly.

Wow that a really great news and in my eyes it would be even more epic, if you would add them as 4th allied faction, as their nearly no restrictions anymore. I don't know, how big the difference is between total redo a faction and adding a new one...

If you choose Comet as reward unit, how will this interact with the RMC Comet?
This reward 'unit' overrides all other reward units.

This is because we didn't think they fitted into the play of RMC. For instance, the Roo is juts poo. Both the Staghound and the CCT are in RMC (we left out Stuart instead). And finally the Firefly have had its role replaced by Achilles, not as good but available earlier and cheaper.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Raider217 on December 08, 2010, 10:47:46 AM
I can haz Crusader plox :P. Jks looks like i'll have a reason to play Brits again
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: TheReaper on December 08, 2010, 01:59:49 PM
Nice work. Neat units! :D But no Matilda II, or Crusader tank? :(
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Pauly3 on December 08, 2010, 02:03:07 PM
yuhuu down with the stupid commonwealth
a new better faction arises and they are sztill brits (i love brits, but i hate coh brits)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: PanzerMan on December 08, 2010, 02:06:35 PM
when can we expect the output of patch ? :)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Tico_1990 on December 08, 2010, 02:16:47 PM
when can we expect the output of patch ? :)

Most likely when it's done;)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Desert_Fox on December 08, 2010, 02:28:14 PM
Wow, seems to be interesting! Good work!  ;)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: EightMinds on December 08, 2010, 07:11:52 PM
Quote
Marines Commando Squad:
 - Regular infantry section with normal movement but unable to make trenches.
 - Cost lowered to 375 manpower.
 - Reinforce cost percentage increased.
 - Recon element now:
 - - Camouflage when in cover like PE Falls.
 - - Sharpshooter ability remains.
 - - Increased Accuracy.
 - - Decreased Cooldown.
 - - Increased Capture Rate.
 - - Reduces health by 5hp per man
 - Recon Element cost increased from 35 munitions to 50 munitions.

SAS Raiders:
 - Basically 4 Tommies with 3 Thompsons and 1 PIAT.
 - Fast capping speed and cost 375 manpower.


Recon Element would be cooler if the rest of the squad were equiped with Stens.

I'm just sayin'.  ;)



Also, why do the SASR use Thompsons?

Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Raider217 on December 08, 2010, 07:26:05 PM
Recon Element would be cooler if the rest of the squad were equiped with Stens.

I'm just sayin'.  ;)
However the "coolest" option isnt always the most balanced... unfortunately.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Tico_1990 on December 08, 2010, 07:34:26 PM
Imo, EightMinds brings up a good point, why are the SASraiders armed with thompsons, may I suggest changing those to stens? (perhaps even silenced ones, just for the look/feel)
Cheers
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Walentin 'Walki' L. on December 08, 2010, 08:10:23 PM
Normal commandos use stens.

Whats about the kangorro will it still be that cheap & strong?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Griptonix on December 08, 2010, 09:24:28 PM
Sounds great, can't wait to try it out!
Maybe now the british will actually be a challenge to fight against!
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Zerstörer on December 08, 2010, 10:42:48 PM
Commandos have Stens, which is why the SAS have Thompsons instead, so there is no mix up and makes SAS more unique within the faction.

No crazy roo, if you choose to play the Marines.

Recoiless rifle jeeps now do have a fuel cost attached to them.
Bren carrier still has a very valid role...ferrying SAS around and being a mobile heavy MG.

Keep in mind, balance wise it isn't fully finalized yet but you get to see how it will work.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: EightMinds on December 08, 2010, 10:49:39 PM
Small question...

does the RMC have the Comet Tank by default or must you tick the Comet in the rewards too?

*likes the Firefly*
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Rikard Blixt on December 08, 2010, 11:08:29 PM
Small question...

does the RMC have the Comet Tank by default or must you tick the Comet in the rewards too?

*likes the Firefly*

Quote from: Rizz
And finally the Firefly have had its role replaced by Achilles, not as good but available earlier and cheaper.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: EightMinds on December 08, 2010, 11:13:32 PM
Oh, right, eheh.  :-X
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Zuzundra on December 08, 2010, 11:41:06 PM
emmmm...a lot of changes...but it is still not clear for me. Will it be the 4th ally side or "new brits" will change the old faction?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: WartyX on December 08, 2010, 11:50:32 PM
Quote
All Changes to the Commonwealth faction are togglable through a single optional Reward "unit".
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: SavageWorld on December 09, 2010, 12:54:00 AM
Awesome. May I suggested that you add the how to play with the old brit to the FAQ the day you launch the pacth.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 09, 2010, 12:59:07 AM
Awesome. May I suggested that you add the how to play with the old brit to the FAQ the day you launch the pacth.
I think would be the other way around...
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Seeme on December 09, 2010, 02:06:09 AM
Am confused, are you going to replace the brits, or make a whole new fraction?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on December 09, 2010, 03:21:48 AM
New faction (with mostly same or similar units) that is activated depending on whether or not the RMC reward "unit" is selected on. In other words, you will still choose between brits and amis on the army selector but the brit you get will determine if you have RMC turned on or off.

Hopefully the Brits can just be all out replaced in the future with this faction but it's a smart move to make it optional for the moment while the kinks are worked out.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: HyperSniper999 on December 09, 2010, 03:37:24 AM
At first I was worried about this mod growing into a giant megablob of doing whatever it wants.

Anyway, this is great. SAS and the Royal Marines need attention!

Also, I know this is probalbly nitpicking and a very stupid change, but can the Tommies have their Tommy guns be the M1928 model instead of the M1A1? I've seen photographs of that being used and lend leased more than the M1A1.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: neosdark on December 09, 2010, 04:45:49 AM
A little unfair if they get the luxury guns with 100-round drums when they come out. :P.

I would like that to be an upgrade actually from M1A1 to the M1928-style model, with better accuracy at long range and a 50 round-drum. But lets save the Royal Marine upgrades till later.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: tyson277 on December 09, 2010, 10:14:32 AM
awesome guys cant wait to try these new unit addons
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Max 'DonXavi' von B. on December 09, 2010, 12:58:19 PM
Ouuhh yeah.. finally the brits will be playable for me  ;D Can't wait to play with RMC + a mate choosing the normal RC and celebrate a little D-Day revival match with them (Marine Commandos + Glider Guys  ;D)
Thank you again for this awesome piece of modding.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Desert_Fox on December 09, 2010, 01:09:02 PM
celebrate a little D-Day revival match with them (Marine Commandos + Glider Guys  ;D)

A little Market Garden Operation  :D
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Max 'DonXavi' von B. on December 09, 2010, 01:17:33 PM
celebrate a little D-Day revival match with them (Marine Commandos + Glider Guys  ;D)

A little Market Garden Operation  :D

2 free slots for American Airborne and British Royal Engineers (30th corps) than it would be perfect.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: ChocoboKnight88 on December 09, 2010, 01:45:40 PM
Before I start my questions, I'd like to thank and applaud the EF team for attempting to make the British a more popular addition to the game.

Exactly how are the SAS going to be implemented? Are they going to replace the normal Commandos? Are there going to be four per squad? If so, are their stats going to be boosted (to make up for their decreased numbers) to match a Commando squad in terms of damage output and health? Are their anti-tank weapons going to need an upgrade requirement, so we can choose between anti-infantry and anti-tank power?

I kinda have mixed feeling about the SAS being put in the game. While I do have the utmost respect for them, there are just too few of them make them realistically replace Commandos. In a documentary talking about modern-day SAS I watched a few years back, I they said there were only over 100 SAS soldiers in the whole country because the standards of joining them were so high. I don't know if I want to see them used as expendable soldiers in COH.

Moving on from the SAS... I don't know if I like the idea of moving the Bren Carrier to a glider. That means the British will have no mobile HMG during early game, making it much harder for them to fight off HMGs and massed infantry if the German player is using bikes to destroy any mortar emplacements being built.

If the change was made to combat Bren-in-Bren, didn't we already take care of that when we increased the damage it takes when Auto-repairing? Isn't this really unnecessary?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Rikard Blixt on December 09, 2010, 02:54:08 PM
SAS won't replace commandos or anything. See these changes as a new faction instead of a reward unit.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on December 09, 2010, 03:08:30 PM
I see no problem with the bren being moved. Even now in EF without BiB being horrendously OP, it's still a bitch to deal with early game. Remember that Brits will have a much easier time fighting MGs now that their infantry can effectively flank. They'll probably be even better at it than Americans to be honest since a tommy squad could probably take on a volk squad and MG crew if the suppressed tommy squad helped out a bit as well. Brits will also have more map control now and the Wehr player won't be able to move so far up with his MGs without opening himself up to a flank. Recon sections are much more attractive and might be able to take on an MG from the front with the use of snipe. They still have heroic charge from the LT too.

I'll have to see SAS performance ingame before I judge them.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 09, 2010, 05:29:38 PM
Ouuhh yeah.. finally the brits will be playable for me  ;D Can't wait to play with RMC + a mate choosing the normal RC and celebrate a little D-Day revival match with them (Marine Commandos + Glider Guys  ;D)
Thank you again for this awesome piece of modding.
The changes that are shown in this list will be done. That means, the doctrines still the same only the normal units were changed(plus vet stacking, buffed speed); you can play by yourself RMC + Commandos any day :).
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: CreeperFIN on December 09, 2010, 06:33:12 PM
I WANT FINLAND =D
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Max 'DonXavi' von B. on December 09, 2010, 07:03:07 PM
Ouuhh yeah.. finally the brits will be playable for me  ;D Can't wait to play with RMC + a mate choosing the normal RC and celebrate a little D-Day revival match with them (Marine Commandos + Glider Guys  ;D)
Thank you again for this awesome piece of modding.
The changes that are shown in this list will be done. That means, the doctrines still the same only the normal units were changed(plus vet stacking, buffed speed); you can play by yourself RMC + Commandos any day :).

Good.. After explaining it a dozen times to all of us, I still don't get it, but doesn't matter. I'll see how it works when the patch is out. By the way: When does it come? And I don't want any "when it's done" please.

I WANT FINLAND =D

Then do them by yourself. Anyway this is OT.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 09, 2010, 07:22:11 PM
If you want to use RMC you need to go to reward section and activate RMC. Then go to the match and select brits as usual. After the loading screen you will see the difference.

The release date is still unknown due to the balance part.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Max 'DonXavi' von B. on December 09, 2010, 07:29:34 PM
Okay thank you. Now I got it.  ;D
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Zerstörer on December 09, 2010, 08:17:03 PM
Balance wise, you won't really need the bren carrier early on because
a)Troops move at normal speed and therefore flanking is quite legit
b) Recon squad is no longer a handicaped squad compared to other tommies
c)You get access to alot of sexy new jeeps and the bren carrier which can be filled with SAS for some nice flanking and raiding, only slightly later at more appropriate time.
d)You can get engineers with normal move and piats from the 'get go' to also help against early cars etc.

SAS are not going to be a spamable unit to replace commandos. They're just there to help promote the use of small fast moving flanking groups. The whole SAS command is effectively the Tier2 missing from the original brits. Also a useful assault unit if you don't go for commandos.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Walentin 'Walki' L. on December 09, 2010, 08:44:47 PM
Somehow I feel that the new brits will be overpowerd.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 09, 2010, 09:21:11 PM
Somehow I feel that the new brits will be overpowerd.
I feel the same about Ostheer, but I'm sure that Reborn guys will lead the new brits to a good balance.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: HyperSniper999 on December 09, 2010, 09:47:27 PM
A little unfair if they get the luxury guns with 100-round drums when they come out. :P.

I would like that to be an upgrade actually from M1A1 to the M1928-style model, with better accuracy at long range and a 50 round-drum. But lets save the Royal Marine upgrades till later.
Actually, the M1A1 would be the upgrade. The M1928 was the earlier model and had a few problems (like Drum magazine jamming) That is also why the M1A1 isn't compatible with a drum magazine, only strick magazines.
And the design for the M1A1 a whole was more refined, like better sights.

Anyway, how do you propose to release this as part of 1.30 when you can't finish the Ostheer?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 09, 2010, 10:08:02 PM
A little unfair if they get the luxury guns with 100-round drums when they come out. :P.

I would like that to be an upgrade actually from M1A1 to the M1928-style model, with better accuracy at long range and a 50 round-drum. But lets save the Royal Marine upgrades till later.
Actually, the M1A1 would be the upgrade. The M1928 was the earlier model and had a few problems (like Drum magazine jamming) That is also why the M1A1 isn't compatible with a drum magazine, only strick magazines.
And the design for the M1A1 a whole was more refined, like better sights.

Anyway, how do you propose to release this as part of 1.30 when you can't finish the Ostheer?
I don't know what this has to do with ostheer.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: HyperSniper999 on December 09, 2010, 10:41:38 PM
A little unfair if they get the luxury guns with 100-round drums when they come out. :P.

I would like that to be an upgrade actually from M1A1 to the M1928-style model, with better accuracy at long range and a 50 round-drum. But lets save the Royal Marine upgrades till later.
Actually, the M1A1 would be the upgrade. The M1928 was the earlier model and had a few problems (like Drum magazine jamming) That is also why the M1A1 isn't compatible with a drum magazine, only strick magazines.
And the design for the M1A1 a whole was more refined, like better sights.

Anyway, how do you propose to release this as part of 1.30 when you can't finish the Ostheer?
I don't know what this has to do with ostheer.
I thought 1.30 was going to be released on the OH's completion. So if the OH can't be released yet because of needing animators, then how will there be 1.30? That is, unless 1.30 will be just more Soviet tweaking and the British.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: IJoe on December 09, 2010, 10:47:37 PM
1.30 will be just more Soviet tweaking and the British.

I think, it will.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 09, 2010, 10:56:02 PM
[...]
I thought 1.30 was going to be released on the OH's completion. So if the OH can't be released yet because of needing animators, then how will there be 1.30? That is, unless 1.30 will be just more Soviet tweaking and the British.
Who told you that? Afaik, devs haven't said that Ostheer was going to be released at 1.30. Just recrewing, tweaks on soviet's balance and new brits.

There's no ETA for Ostheer, but it's most likely that will be out on 2.00 than in 1.40, let alone 1.30.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Zerstörer on December 09, 2010, 11:04:07 PM
Quote
Just recrewing, tweaks on soviet's balance and new brits.

'Just'...ain't you lot greedy  ::)

We're not aiming for OP Brits, just better balanced,less on the knife edge and more importantly fun to play with/against
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: HyperSniper999 on December 09, 2010, 11:14:52 PM
Quote
Just recrewing, tweaks on soviet's balance and new brits.

'Just'...ain't you lot greedy  ::)

We're not aiming for OP Brits, just better balanced,less on the knife edge and more importantly fun to play with/against

Sorry, I was confused. :-[
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 09, 2010, 11:24:02 PM
Quote
Just recrewing, tweaks on soviet's balance and new brits.

'Just'...ain't you lot greedy  ::)

We're not aiming for OP Brits, just better balanced,less on the knife edge and more importantly fun to play with/against
Yeah, sorry about that :-[.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: sovietwarmachine on December 10, 2010, 02:42:12 AM
Recon Element would be cooler if the rest of the squad were equiped with Stens.

I'm just sayin'.  ;)
However the "coolest" option isnt always the most balanced... unfortunately.

tompsons and stens arent very different what made comandos OP was the fact they had 6 stens and they were not all that worse than rangers with tommy guns so it could be a fesable option
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on December 10, 2010, 03:53:36 AM
What made them OP has always been the glider crush. They're really not that good and never have been.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Walentin 'Walki' L. on December 10, 2010, 01:35:29 PM
they are good on a map with much bridges ;). They can plant explosives while the are invisible.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: elrohirtwin on December 10, 2010, 04:26:55 PM
Really interested here, and just in time for the December break  ;D I haven't played Eastern Front in a long time (somewhere like 3 months) and I recently just thought of checking out the site only to be greeted by the news that there's gonna be a rehash of the British Forces.

A few questions though:

1.) So in essence the SAS are now the tier 2 infantry unit of the British Army? Effectively plugging the gap between uber powered vanilla Royal Commandos or will they function as having their own niche compared to commandos and the new Marine Commandos?

2.) If What I read is correct, activating this faction would not override doctrines so it would still be possible to encounter AI who would use, let's say,the Royal engineers or Royal Artillery?

My 2nd question is really the one that's piquing my interest right now. It would be reaaaallly awesome to play lightly armed, lightning fast units in support of artillery fire with my mates.  :D

Oh, and I await the coming of the Ostheer. By then, I wanna see how playing the SAS will end up with playing against my Axis-oriented co-players.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 10, 2010, 05:10:35 PM
AI would behave as usual, but won't be using new brits.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on December 10, 2010, 06:26:57 PM
So if someone who was using RMC were to drop from a game they would not leave a com in control?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: sovietwarmachine on December 10, 2010, 06:33:54 PM
What made them OP has always been the glider crush. They're really not that good and never have been.

well they are not very good vs armor (unless you use PIAT blob) but the regular commandos were always great vs infantry ;)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 10, 2010, 06:50:57 PM
So if someone who was using RMC were to drop from a game they would not leave a com in control?
I meant, if the user plays a game with a AI from  the start. I don't know how works the AI, but imo yes; I think the AI should be tweaked to use the reward brits if the human player drops, because it's different than normal brits.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: One-eye on December 10, 2010, 07:31:42 PM
Wow, i'm impressed, a major revamp of the Brits has been long overdue!

If your thinking of running with this as a more long term idea might i suggest opening a new forum section for British suggestions?

I know i certainly have a couple of ideas i'd like to share!
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: cephalos on December 10, 2010, 07:58:13 PM

If your thinking of running with this as a more long term idea might i suggest opening a new forum section for British suggestions?
+1
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Raider217 on December 11, 2010, 10:40:45 AM
Using this same setup couldnt you technically give two rewards units for a single unit, of course only using one at a time but using the whole 1 overriding the other thing?


If your thinking of running with this as a more long term idea might i suggest opening a new forum section for British suggestions?
+1
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: ChocoboKnight88 on December 11, 2010, 11:33:57 PM
So what are the SAS going to be capable of that sets them apart from Commandos? Is there a risk that they will preferred over them?

By the way, a thought occurred to me... If the SAS are going to be tier two infantry equipped with PIATs and Sappers are coming a tier earlier -- Why not give Marine Sappers Boys AT Rifles and let the SAS get the PIAT upgrade that normal Sappers get now? Because honestly, I think the early PIATs might be a little overpowered vs the Panzer Elite's early vehicles. But then this is purely theory crafting after all...
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 12, 2010, 12:34:20 AM
So what are the SAS going to be capable of that sets them apart from Commandos? Is there a risk that they will preferred over them?

By the way, a thought occurred to me... If the SAS are going to be tier two infantry equipped with PIATs and Sappers are coming a tier earlier -- Why not give Marine Sappers Boys AT Rifles and let the SAS get the PIAT upgrade that normal Sappers get now? Because honestly, I think the early PIATs might be a little overpowered vs the Panzer Elite's early vehicles. But then this is purely theory crafting after all...
Those PIATS damage could be toned down, but i would like to see Boys AT rifle being used on EF! Such a shame that Relic didn't put it on normal game.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: ChocoboKnight88 on December 12, 2010, 12:52:08 AM
I wouldn't want the PIATs to be toned down though for the sake of consistency. PIATs are finally useful now so they really ought to not be touched. That's why I suggested the Boys AT Rifles since it will have a good excuse to be in the normal game now.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on December 12, 2010, 05:43:41 AM
I agree, give marine sappers the AT rifle instead.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Versedhorison on December 12, 2010, 10:46:47 AM
This is great stuff Dev's, my hat goes off to all of you. This will definantly make brits more fun and competative and versitile that the vanilla faction.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Desert_Fox on December 12, 2010, 01:13:57 PM
I agree, give marine sappers the AT rifle instead.

+1 Boys AT rifle rulez! 8)

"Stop that Tank!" Canada (ca.1942) 1/3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov4lOcD7O5c#)

(Canadian propaganda against nazis feat. Walt Disney  ;D)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Paciat on December 12, 2010, 02:38:29 PM
If the SAS are going to be tier two infantry equipped with PIATs and Sappers are coming a tier earlier -- Why not give Marine Sappers Boys AT Rifles
Great idea, but I hope that BOYS will be more efective vs infantry than PTRD is now. Or make it cost less (50ammo).
Quote
I think the early PIATs might be a little overpowered vs the Panzer Elite's early vehicles.
Just like early PE shrecks are OP vs British early vechicles right now? :D
PE have no problems with PTRD blobs. Earlier AT weapons (and Bofors, 17 pounders) will only decrease the possibility of British base raping. But noone will move their trucks anyway becouse they dont generate extra resources.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Zerstörer on December 12, 2010, 03:19:56 PM
AT rifle is something we prefer to keep for the soviets to be honest.
Also, you have to understand that we don't really want to change the British stats too much to reduce the chance of imba all things considered.

Finally, you need to understand that with the RMC british do not enjoy the resource advantage they used to. Getting early piats for PE isn't really as easy or would probably be less beneficial than getting an SAS squad in bren carrier or some jeeps with recoiless rifles

I'm sure we'll discover what's best in time.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: sovietwarmachine on December 12, 2010, 04:58:00 PM

Truck lock down sectors, but do not gain additional resources unless an upgrade is researched.



when you say this i hope you really mean they gain resources like an American or German observation post ??? as opposed to the massive resources they to gain with upgrade...other wise you could be hampering them and giving massive concessions to axis because event PE can lock down points with scout cars though it is easy to take care of and, cost a little population and muni.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Wariscool on December 12, 2010, 11:13:56 PM
 :) Looks good guys keep up the good work ;D
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Zerstörer on December 19, 2010, 03:26:51 PM
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9115/relic00879.jpg) (http://img152.imageshack.us/i/relic00879.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: omya on December 19, 2010, 04:06:57 PM
wow gr8 :)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Desert_Fox on December 19, 2010, 05:03:51 PM
Sexy Jeep!  ;D

But PIAT+Bren Carrier scared me!  :-\
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Walentin 'Walki' L. on December 19, 2010, 05:50:26 PM
Those Recoiless rifle jeeps in the back are nice.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: mikronim on December 19, 2010, 08:37:39 PM
Quote
Just recrewing, tweaks on soviet's balance and new brits.

'Just'...ain't you lot greedy  ::)

We're not aiming for OP Brits, just better balanced,less on the knife edge and more importantly fun to play with/against

with / against?? being working as a reward unit will they be able to played against?? (AI controlled?)
or will this be posible after they replace the brits all together?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on December 19, 2010, 09:02:03 PM
with / against?? being working as a reward unit will they be able to played against?? (AI controlled?)
or will this be posible after they replace the brits all together?

with -> you choose them.
against -> your human opponent choose them.

Currently AI doesn't use them.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: darkmatter on December 21, 2010, 07:55:33 AM
i can see players just spamming those jeeps it will be funny
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Seeme on December 21, 2010, 11:41:35 AM
Spamming might be a problem as dark matter said.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Paciat on December 21, 2010, 01:33:24 PM
Spamming might be a problem as dark matter said.
Spamming jeeps? :D
2 RR jeeps cost 450MP and Stug 1 shot kills them. You also cant see if both of them are slightly damaged or 1 of them is badly damaged. In mid game their as usefull (or useless) as Constripts when you have Strelky.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on December 21, 2010, 01:55:26 PM
What Paciat said. They're fairly decent as a support unit but you really can't spam them and they're very vulnerable.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Seeme on December 21, 2010, 09:03:56 PM
They Could Flank a Stug or another heavy tank though.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Rikard Blixt on December 21, 2010, 09:34:03 PM
They Could Flank a Stug or another heavy tank though.

And that is the point of them...


If some1 spams RR jeeps, just get some Shrecks out and problem solved.

If some1 spam Recon jeeps, just get some Pumas out and problem solved.

If some1 spam both types, I'd say Shrecks and AT guns - problem solved.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Seeme on December 22, 2010, 11:56:09 AM
Alright. Though it is Expensive to get a 75 Muni Shrecks For some pesky jeeps.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Versedhorison on December 23, 2010, 11:54:25 AM
75 munitions is the best way to go since using panzershrecks will be out of the question for against a squad of jeeps.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Walentin 'Walki' L. on December 23, 2010, 01:09:00 PM
Hehe. PE ftw. They don't need ammo to build schrecks.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: nico97one on December 23, 2010, 02:08:15 PM
True but you need A LOT OF fuel before having those schrecks, and I prefer using this fuel to build some marders or any other tank.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Versedhorison on December 24, 2010, 09:25:46 AM
True but you need A LOT OF fuel before having those schrecks, and I prefer using this fuel to build some marders or any other tank.
because 55 fuel minimum is a lot to get shrecks for PE  ::)
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Griptonix on December 28, 2010, 06:54:18 PM
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/9115/relic00879.jpg) (http://img152.imageshack.us/i/relic00879.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
They seem like they'll be just as weak and worthless mid-game as the bren carriers and pumas.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Paciat on December 28, 2010, 07:09:35 PM
They seem like they'll be just as weak and worthless mid-game as the bren carriers and pumas.
Pumas weak and worthless? In mid (not late) game?
I love using pumas as much as I hate fighting them. Cant say the same thing about BRENs and RR jeps. :(
Wehrmacht T1 T3 strat FTW!!!
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Griptonix on December 28, 2010, 07:16:36 PM
They seem like they'll be just as weak and worthless mid-game as the bren carriers and pumas.
Pumas weak and worthless? In mid (not late) game?
I love using pumas as much as I hate fighting them. Cant say the same thing about BRENs and RR jeps. :(
Wehrmacht T1 T3 strat FTW!!!
I meant the fact that there is either a MBT, anti-tank gun, or bazooka in mid to late game waiting for it whereas in early game none of these tend to make an appearance.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Paciat on December 28, 2010, 10:25:39 PM
I meant the fact that there is either a MBT, anti-tank gun, or bazooka in mid to late game waiting for it whereas in early game none of these tend to make an appearance.
But puma circlestrafes AT guns well (allies have no camo) and can fire at infantry from max range. Its armor is also good at avoiding fire (while on the move). Its also faster than vet 0 M-8s or Stags.

Id rather have 1 234 puma than 2 PE 222 ACs.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on December 29, 2010, 04:30:18 AM
I'm with Paciat, Pumas win games. They are ridiculously difficult to hit sometimes and pump out monstrous damage when vet 3. Most of the good 2v2 Axis strats involve hordes of Pumas.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Griptonix on December 29, 2010, 08:05:05 PM
Alright, I'll concede on that. I tend not to micromanage a unit such as the puma as best it could. I favor the large group attack move to a certain area and let them do what they do. It is true though, a 3 vet puma is a formidable enemy.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Pathfinder777 on December 31, 2010, 08:46:54 AM
What I would like to know is:

I know that, reward units are usable for the standard Brits when RMC is switch off. Comets can replace firefly's and so on. But what if RMC is switch on and I decide to switch on comet over firefly, what then? Or have you decided that when RMC is on the other 3 reward units for the original Brits are disabled?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on December 31, 2010, 05:02:51 PM
RMC already has the stag and the comet. Roos will not be making an appearance. RMC overrides your other reward units. So it doesn't matter what else is on if RMC is, because you will be playing with the RMC unit list.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: nico97one on December 31, 2010, 06:06:16 PM
True but you need A LOT OF fuel before having those schrecks, and I prefer using this fuel to build some marders or any other tank.
because 55 fuel minimum is a lot to get shrecks for PE  ::)

If you play on low resources, at the beginning or mid-game, 55 fuel is important.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on January 01, 2011, 04:08:12 AM
Not to mention, you would normally be getting incendiary nades and halftracks before even thinking about shreks. It's always been the PE weakness.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Versedhorison on January 02, 2011, 01:40:22 PM
True but you need A LOT OF fuel before having those schrecks, and I prefer using this fuel to build some marders or any other tank.
because 55 fuel minimum is a lot to get shrecks for PE  ::)

If you play on low resources, at the beginning or mid-game, 55 fuel is important.

I always play on regular resource start and I find I can get shrecks in a few minutes of holding on to even a medium or low fuel point.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: nico97one on January 02, 2011, 09:21:19 PM
True but you need A LOT OF fuel before having those schrecks, and I prefer using this fuel to build some marders or any other tank.
because 55 fuel minimum is a lot to get shrecks for PE  ::)

If you play on low resources, at the beginning or mid-game, 55 fuel is important.

I always play on regular resource start and I find I can get shrecks in a few minutes of holding on to even a medium or low fuel point.

And how can you hold this fuel point without spending them on half-tracks or anything else ? Are you playing SP ?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Versedhorison on January 03, 2011, 08:55:54 AM
True but you need A LOT OF fuel before having those schrecks, and I prefer using this fuel to build some marders or any other tank.
because 55 fuel minimum is a lot to get shrecks for PE  ::)

If you play on low resources, at the beginning or mid-game, 55 fuel is important.

I always play on regular resource start and I find I can get shrecks in a few minutes of holding on to even a medium or low fuel point.

And how can you hold this fuel point without spending them on half-tracks or anything else ? Are you playing SP ?

Haha no I'm most usually on 1v1 automatches. Depending on who Im against. If its brits I can hold a decent number of fuel points since I can cap faster and brits hardly ever cap more than half the map in the early stages. Against Americans I tend to lock down on at least one or two sectors with Panzergrenadiers (although I do buy increased squad cap early on). Otherwise I try and decap the rest of the map with kettenkrads. Against soviets I can just spam Panzergrenadiers since they will most usually beat conscripts. I'll post up some replays in a day or two if your interested in seeing how I play.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: JohnSchwartz on January 03, 2011, 11:10:12 PM
It looks like the Brits lose all ability to make slit trenches. Would that be the case?

Personally I'd like to see more defensive fighting positions in the game. Digging in has kept soldiers alive since at least the American Civil War. It seems odd that only one country in the game thought to give its soldiers entrenching tools.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Versedhorison on January 03, 2011, 11:29:20 PM
It looks like the Brits lose all ability to make slit trenches. Would that be the case?

Personally I'd like to see more defensive fighting positions in the game. Digging in has kept soldiers alive since at least the American Civil War. It seems odd that only one country in the game thought to give its soldiers entrenching tools.

All other factions can build sandbags too. Its just slit trenches are better.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Tico_1990 on January 03, 2011, 11:43:14 PM
Personally I'd like to see more defensive fighting positions in the game. Digging in has kept soldiers alive since at least the American Civil War. It seems odd that only one country in the game thought to give its soldiers entrenching tools.

Entrenched positions is what gave artillery nice targets and made blitzkrieg effective to be quite honest.
Cheers
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Rikard Blixt on January 04, 2011, 12:15:16 AM
It looks like the Brits lose all ability to make slit trenches. Would that be the case?

Personally I'd like to see more defensive fighting positions in the game. Digging in has kept soldiers alive since at least the American Civil War. It seems odd that only one country in the game thought to give its soldiers entrenching tools.

Commandos from the Commander Tree will still be able to build slit trenches.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Paciat on January 04, 2011, 01:07:30 AM
Commandos from the Commander Tree will still be able to build slit trenches.
Who needs trenches anyway?
Sandbags rule, especially for the British. Without a flamethrower its really hard to retake a trench.
If a Tommy dies in a trench, he cannot be saved by a medic.

Also US have MGs and WH bunkers. Both can be occupied.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on January 04, 2011, 08:49:39 AM
Trenches are both shit and too good at the same time. They make you keep a squad static and are extremely vulnerable to some weapons but they're ridiculously strong against other weapons and force PE players to tech for inc nades or mortar halftracks, no exceptions. PE players must spend valuable fuel to counter a free trench, which can be deleted anyway once you force him to spend that fuel.

I'm not sad to see trenches go for the RMC. It allows them to have a more fluid gameplay style like the US. Regular Brits and commandos can still build trenches though.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: bigjo on January 04, 2011, 02:15:16 PM
Okay, I feel stupid having to ask this, but just how to I activate the RMC changes?

I am patched to 3.1.00 and the launcher says I am updated fully.

I go to the rewards tab and I can see the vehicles (the comet and jagdpanther, jumbo sherman) and the medals tabs, but I can't find where to activate the RMC! Do I have to get the campaign medals?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Walentin 'Walki' L. on January 04, 2011, 02:25:31 PM
They will be available with the next patch.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: bigjo on January 04, 2011, 02:27:41 PM
Ah  ;D

The way people were talking about it I thought it was done!
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on January 04, 2011, 06:28:23 PM
A few of us have played with the RMC but the patch will be out for everyone soon (don't ask me when).
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: nico97one on January 05, 2011, 07:27:50 PM
@GodlikeDennis ... when ?

Well I like the idea of a jeep squad, it's ... different and that's why I love EF, it brings more than an all new faction, I really like the Comet etc ...

But changing original faction by another, by simply choose a reward unit is something (I think) totally new !
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: IJoe on January 05, 2011, 07:44:39 PM
Yeah, I vote "aye" on every faction receiving a reward faction!  ;D
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Blackbishop on January 05, 2011, 08:06:28 PM
Yeah, I vote "aye" on every faction receiving a reward faction!  ;D
lol ;D! I would like to replace PE with something else, like italians :D! Although it's a lot of work and i don't know the limits of that process :-\...
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins! What if...
Post by: p1n34ppl3 on January 08, 2011, 04:16:17 PM
I'm personally a big fan of Eastern Front and I have thought from the beginning that you guys are doing an excellent job!
Thumbs up for you! ;D

But I do have an alternative idea for the British changes. Instead of making it a "reward team" why don't you make it a entirely new country, that just is very similar to the British army...
For example Canada?
I don't mean that you should make anymore changes to the army nor the command tree...
I just think that it would be more cool and realistic to have a new country instead of a "reward British army". In my opinion it would make a great mod even better.

I hope you at least consider this proposal.
Otherwise, keep up the good work. ;D

B.R p1n34ppl3
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Raider217 on January 08, 2011, 06:15:30 PM
The RMC are intended to fix the issues related with the British side and bring it into line with the other factions its not adding a new faction for the sake of adding a new faction. Its a new faction to overtake and fix the old faction (depending on whether you tick the box or not), or at least thats my view of them.

P.S: Canada is represented already as the Artillery doctrine albeit a very small representation
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: revoluzer on January 08, 2011, 08:28:55 PM
I like the  idea of a fourth faction, I don't know the work behind it, but well, it would great that way.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Griptonix on January 09, 2011, 05:13:35 AM
With the fact that the ostheer is on the way as is the RMC, keep in mind when talking about adding another faction that there would be 4 for the allies and 2 for the axis.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Zerstörer on January 09, 2011, 10:26:46 AM
The RMC are intended to fix the issues related with the British side and bring it into line with the other factions its not adding a new faction for the sake of adding a new faction. Its a new faction to overtake and fix the old faction (depending on whether you tick the box or not), or at least thats my view of them.

P.S: Canada is represented already as the Artillery doctrine albeit a very small representation
+1
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: tyson277 on January 13, 2011, 08:17:17 AM
when you consider the fact that britain was in the war from the begining yet they are under strengthed and have far less units this new mod will balance out the game more to mirror  the real world of 1939-1945,cant wait to play it ,thnx guys for giving coh more bench life
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: HyperSniper999 on January 23, 2011, 03:30:08 AM
Is this is a flaw?

When one jeep is lost, is it at all possible to get it back?
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: GodlikeDennis on January 23, 2011, 04:10:56 AM
Not possible.
Title: Re: Who Dares, Wins!
Post by: Zerstörer on January 24, 2011, 07:16:03 PM
Like when you loose a PE panther from the battle group, you can't just get 1 more back  ;)