Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Paciat on March 09, 2011, 08:54:14 PM
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I allways belived that Soviet Strelky rifle stats are copied Garand stats with minor changes.
Suprise :o
The dmg of the Mosin is 12 and the long range accuracy is 0,5 compared to 0,35 of the M1 and 0,45 of the Gren k98.
I wont just say "nerf the Mosin", I wanted an opinion first.
Did you got raped as Germans by long range Mosin fire just becouse you didnt build a Med bunker?
Can youre MP40 Volks get close to a Strelky squad without being raped (just like they would with a US squad)?
IMO Mosin should get a dmg Nerf (10dmg), the Strelky global upgrade should be cheaper, DP-28 should cost 50 ammo while PPSH 100ammo (or even 125ammo so that 7 men PPSH wont be spammable). NKVD rifles should be more powerfull to (8 or 9dmg) since they are a joke compared to a squad that can retreat, has more HP and costs only 40MP more.
I also wanted to start a discussion about PTRD squads. 8 pop cap is really a bad nerf. Why not just give PTRD teams shitty constript rifles and maybe raise their reinforce cost?
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I hate the 8 PopCap. Before they were spam able. Now there a waste of Popcap. I thought tank hunters were used in large numbers, 2 or 4?
8 is to much, I would prefer 6 so I can build at least 3 before I reach 20 cap, with is a third of my force.
I didn't think of mosins as op. Though am guessing now they might be since all those people are carrying them.
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Now you mention it, I hardly can charge against Strelky with MP40 volks, but i thought it was bad luck xD. Also, always I'm raped as wehr(97% of the cases) i didn't build a med bunker.
Agree with nerf dmg && range acc of the Mosin.
I'm not sure about the DP-28 cost though, but you are the experts ;).
I agree with the PTRD suggestion. I think that's a good solution.
I agree with the NKVD proposal.
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IMO, unsuppressible NKVD (it's bugged, but said to be corrected in the upcoming patch) shouldn't receive any more firepower, than it does right now.
Strelky is not a unit you can build from the start (like US basic infantry), by the time you build them US would already have BARs. Besides, they are about totally useless against tanks (unlike US infantry). So, it seems fair to me, that their ranged fire is a bit more effective. And if you don't build med bunkers, while playing against soviets as wehr, then you are only to blame yourself, I think.
Considering tank hunters, my opinion: ATM they suck for their price (taking into account support barracks upgrade, that is required).
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Agree Strelky mosin nagant is abit too powerfull atm, ive seen Strelkys vaporize PE grens in matter of seconds.
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I didn't think of mosins as op. Though am guessing now they might be since all those people are carrying them.
They apear after 35 fuel so you can say that they should be better than M1s. But the dmg output is 47% higher than non BAR rifles (84 compared to 57) and the long range acc (the medium and short range acc are the same) is also more than 45% higher.
I allways thought Strelky as a spammable but realiable cheap infantry and usually they did what was expected of them. But come to think of it they could do much more than US infantry.
I dont want to nerf the long range acc and the dmg, just one of those 2.
I'm not sure about the DP-28 cost though, but you are the experts ;).
With the Mosin dmg nerf DP-28 squads wont be that efective. Thats why I want to see more of them. But the PPSH wont be affected by the nerf and thats why it should be expensive.
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What about that: decrease squad members to 6 ( for Strelky). It would be faaar easier to hide them ( operating with 7-men squad is quite difficult, not saying about finding cover for them; conscripts don't count; they will be dead anyways :) ) and would decrease their firepower about 1/6.
Tank Hunters need total rebalance. 8 popcap for 4 men squad armed with 2 AT rifles which can't even scratch PzIV.... I'd have 4 men squad with camo, bundlet nade, 2 shrecks and far more health.
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Comparing THs to doctrinal stormies is foolish.
I agree only to the TH changes. I thought it very unusual to change them to 8 pop when the problem with their effectiveness stems from their excellent rifles. At the moment the unupgraded squads are essentially a PG squad + AT rifle with cheaper reinforce.
Strelky are not general purpose like riflemen and cannot harm vehicles. They are a little better than a base gren squad. They have far less health but more firepower. Perhaps they could be slightly reduced ranged accuracy to prevent a blob being good at all ranges. DPs are good IMO, roughly equivalent to brens but with a shitter ability. PPShs should probably have a cost increase by a bit.
NKVD being unsuppressible will be an excellent addition to your forces. Though they should make it still possible to build both units since they differ drastically in function.
I think the greater issue at the moment is the penetration increase of mosins against PE. Conscripts swarm towards halftracks and dominate them.
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Honestly I never noticed all this power in Mosin Nagant, maybe because it's used by weak infantry (Conscript, NKVD and standard Strelky) and some good german inf + 1 MG42 can stop them easly.
I'm talking about in a good game (no spam, bridges, etc..).
But yes, with a Strelky spam it's very powerfull.
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I forgot.
Version Tag. ::)
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Probably nerf the Mosin only a little bit (not too much). PPsH seem very strong too. I suggest allowing them to drop like DPs in the future patch and also a slight nerf. DPs seem fine to me.
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I forgot.
Version Tag. ::)
Seeme did it. :) 8)
Post Merge: March 10, 2011, 10:06:51 PM
DPs seem fine to me.
But their so late. :(
And everyone uses PPSH anyway. I just want them cheaper than PPSH. But I guess fixing that what isnt broken was never a priority. :P
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DPs seem fine to me.
But their so late. :(
And everyone uses PPSH anyway. I just want them cheaper than PPSH. But I guess fixing that what isnt broken was never a priority. :P
I would like to see some change in DP: FE give DP squads suppression ability, the one like guards have, or HMG-like. Just make them DP of some use, don't copy-paste BARs, since these are no real alternative to a decent machine-pistol (=sub-machine gun), that ppsh certainly is. Though this isn't any sort of top priority at all, of course.
Dropping ppsh would be nice, but game-breaking, since it would be the only droppable macine-pistol in the entire game, 'cause mp40 & thompsons are not, as well as mp43 sturmgever, which are very similar to machine-pistols game-wise.
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SMGs and assault rifles are not droppable for a reason. They are too common and the ground would be littered with them. Even if you reduced the drop rate, a single dropped weapon has nowhere near the effect that a dropped bazooka or LMG has.
DP is fine, could perhaps do with another ability since the current one stops movement which is more a detriment than benefit. PPSh needs cost increase to 80-100 munitions.
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Strelky are not general purpose like riflemen and cannot harm vehicles. They are a little better than a base gren squad. They have far less health but more firepower
And that is the reason for their Damage12 mosin, because they do drop like flies. We used to have them with Damage10 and they didn't even scratch Axis infantry before being wiped out.
Overall they are inferior to US rifles.
Tank hunter's pop was raised to 8 because they were too spamable which in turn made them numerous enough to be used as line infantry (they are supposed to have the damage 7 mosin) holding their own against axis troops let alone vehicles. A specialist unit like that can never be spamable as its open to abuse(much like rangers/airborne used to be before upkeep and reinforce increase). 2 units should be all you really need combined with the re-crewable AT gun
I'm not a fan of needing 3 squads of them just to hold off 1 PzIV. On the other hand, soviet infantry units should not feel expensive/elite really.
PPSh at 80-100muni is waaaaaay too expensive given the fragility of the squad carrying them. Spend 75muni on an Lmg and see how you stand up against a charge...
DPs/AT rifles will be drop in the next patch (trusting the coders did what they're supposed to do)
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"soviet infantry should not feel expensive/elite" ? so why every german unit is getting wiped out by those "non-elites"
Strelky cost 280mp, they have 7 rifles. and they are superior to grens, who cost 300mp and have 4 rifles.... I;ve always been bad in maths, but should they be either more expensive or squad should be smaller?
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"soviet infantry should not feel expensive/elite" ? so why every german unit is getting wiped out by those "non-elites"
That maybe (MAYBE) is due to the fact, that grens are a basic (and all purpose) infantry unit, while strelky are absolutely exclusively anti-infantry.
Get those grens sturmgewehr 44 (and extended squads as well) and see those poor ppsh-rushers vanish in a matter of seconds (not mentioning basic ones, that are supposed to be met by anti-infantry half-trucks, not by 3-men unupgraded gren squads, if you're playing as PE).
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(they are supposed to have the damage 7 mosin)
What?
Not sure I understand. They have 7dmg Mosins now? ??? That would mean 4 PTRD teams have the same anti infantry firepower as 1 Strelky squad. (12Mosinsx7dmg=7Mosinsx12dmg) Blobs like that should be easy to counter. Even with 10dmg constript Mosins (low medium and long acc) they would suck vs infantry.
...unless you want to counter 4 infantry squads with 1 "all purpose" gren unit. :P
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I have idea for Strelky. They could have 2 improvements for PPsh i.e. one improvement for 50 ammo gave them 4 PPsh and the second improvement also for 50 ammo gave 3 for them PPSh. This is like in Stormtropers. The same it could be for DP- 28.
To mosin nagats. Indeed they are strong but must be a bit better than M1 Grand or Kar 98, because how wrote Zerstörer up, stenkly have to some more chances to kill germans, because their health is very low like flies.
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I have idea for Strelky. They could have 2 improvements for PPsh i.e. one improvement for 50 ammo gave them 4 PPsh and the second improvement also for 50 ammo gave 3 for them PPSh. This is like in Stormtropers. The same it could be for DP- 28.
To mosin nagats. Indeed they are strong but must be a bit better than M1 Grand or Kar 98, because how wrote Zerstörer up, stenkly have to some more chances to kill germans, because their health is very low like flies.
The gren/storm double upgrade is so you can make a choice if you want them more efective vs infantry or tanks. Upgrading some men with short range weapons while leaving others with long range guns makes the whole squad less efective at everything.
Just look at partisants. They cant defeat a Volks squad (upgraded or not) no mather how much they would try.
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Just look at partisans. They cant defeat a Volks squad (upgraded or not) no matter how much they would try.
You sure about that? Last time I checked they can easily beat unupgraded volks and even grens. Mp40 volks will only win if the partisans charge.
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Just look at partisans. They cant defeat a Volks squad (upgraded or not) no matter how much they would try.
You sure about that? Last time I checked they can easily beat unupgraded volks and even grens. Mp40 volks will only win if the partisans charge.
Unmicroed grens sure. But every volk carries some sandbags with him. A 5 man PPSH squad should be able to push any rifle squad out of cover.
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Just look at partisans. They cant defeat a Volks squad (upgraded or not) no matter how much they would try.
You sure about that? Last time I checked they can easily beat unupgraded volks and even grens. Mp40 volks will only win if the partisans charge.
Unmicroed grens sure. But every volk carries some sandbags with him. A 5 man PPSH squad should be able to push any rifle squad out of cover.
I'm pretty sure even if the unupgraded volks / grens are sitting in green and the partisans have to charge to the green the partisans still win.
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I think that partisans would lose in charging green cover troops. However, they ARE very good troops against infantry. Partisans would never lose against volks I would think.
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Partisans would never lose against volks I would think.
Except if the Volks are vetted to II or III and upgraded with MP40s or without the upgrade on long range ;)
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Vet doesn't do much for volks. Obviously they would win with MP40s since those are death.
I was also just checking out some stats on Corsix. It seems strelky/TH mosins are actually slightly better against elite/heroic armour than most other weapons. Also, as an interesting sidenote, they're slightly better on the move than most, with only a 0.6 accuracy modifier instead of 0.5. For those that might be interested, Guard SVTs are actually really good on the move, with only a 0.7 moving modifier.
While the mosin does have slightly better long range accuracy it actually has worse mid/short range accuracy than the gren/storm k98 (which kind of nullifies the usefulness of the better moving accuracy).
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Dennis can you check the values for the Soviet small arms against Pgren Soldier / Grenadier Elite / KCH Heroic armor?
Last time I checked the Western Allies small arms have a 25% penalty against Grenadier Elite and are going to have a 22% penalty against KCH Heroic in the coming patch.
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Yeah I already did. They have the same values against soldier armour but have 5% less of a damage loss against elite/heroic armour. So the modifiers are (with normal values in brackets):
Mosin_nagant/con_rifle/con_rifle2
Dmg Acc
Soldier 0.6 (0.6) 1 (1)
Elite 0.8 (0.75) 0.75 (0.75)
Heroic 0.8 (0.75) 0.85 (0.85)
Interestingly, I found out that BARs have awful modifiers against PGs:
0.4 dmg and 0.75 acc vs soldier
Also, BARs and Thompsons do the same damage to infantry armour targets as elite armour targets, they have 0.75 dmg modifiers for both.
After some working, I also concluded that G43s suck.
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Then perhaps its not the Mosin base damage that needs to be changed, but the damage penalties it should have against specific armor types.
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Yeah I already did. They have the same values against soldier armour but have 5% less of a damage loss against elite/heroic armour. So the modifiers are (with normal values in brackets):
Mosin_nagant/con_rifle/con_rifle2
Dmg Acc
Soldier 0.6 (0.6) 1 (1)
Elite 0.8 (0.75) 0.75 (0.75)
Heroic 0.8 (0.75) 0.85 (0.85)
Interestingly, I found out that BARs have awful modifiers against PGs:
0.4 dmg and 0.75 acc vs soldier
Also, BARs and Thompsons do the same damage to infantry armour targets as elite armour targets, they have 0.75 dmg modifiers for both.
After some working, I also concluded that G43s suck.
right.... so what does it mean to EF gameplay ???
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Basically, vet 2 elite armour on grens/pios etc. is less effective against Russians as it is against other factions.
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I think should make them all according to the historical fact. And the only differences between different unit is the accuracy since some of the units are much better trained. ;)
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I think should make them all according to the historical fact. And the only differences between different unit is the accuracy since some of the units are much better trained. ;)
No, constripts do dumb dangerous things. Veterans know when not to poke youre head out.
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whr dont forget to use your stielhandgranates against strelky! it tips fight in your favor greatly
as for balance its fine soviet infantry has been nerfed to hell and back
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Russian troops should throw rocks. (I'm taking this from CoHO, where kiddies on both sides bitched constantly--there were over 100 threads where the BAR was labled as gamebreakingly OP because it beat some of the rediculously OP Wehr Volksgrenadier cards; over half of the topics suggested doubleing volk squad sizes and reducing the Riflemen squads to 4 guys with Carbines--it's the mental defectiveness of this new generation of gaming kiddies--yes, KIDDIES, that miffs me to no end).
And Grenadiers need to shoot V1s from their rifles. Pfff >.> balance be damned xD
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Russian troops should throw rocks. (I'm taking this from CoHO, where kiddies on both sides bitched constantly--there were over 100 threads where the BAR was labled as gamebreakingly OP because it beat some of the rediculously OP Wehr Volksgrenadier cards; over half of the topics suggested doubleing volk squad sizes and reducing the Riflemen squads to 4 guys with Carbines--it's the mental defectiveness of this new generation of gaming kiddies--yes, KIDDIES, that miffs me to no end).
And Grenadiers need to shoot V1s from their rifles. Pfff >.> balance be damned xD
No, man, you got the wrong view on what balance is, that's all.
"balance is...":
"...when you can kill at least two conscript squads with your unvetted volks with rifles",
"...when a motorbyke automatically finds a shapshooter team and chases 'em down even as they retreat"
"...when a wehr sniper does a double-shot against a sharpshooter team"
"...when a pak38 costs less than a soviet ZiS, and yet performs twice as good, and has a greater shooting range"
"...when your unsuppressible squads get pinned by a bike and volks squad"
"...when a pak38 one-shots 5 consripts at a time"
Well, relent you, axis fanbois, - it's more of a joke-post than the opposite. ;D ;D ;D
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@MaxiKing6
Oh! He was? I mean, what, really? Well, who could have guessed, right?
And BTW, I won't forgive you, - I'm gonna track you down by your IP and than, eventually, I'll come upon you, like thief in the night, and you will not know, when I will do so...
In other words - wake up, man ::)
EDIT: Hey! How am I supposed to make fun of people's comments (not the people themselves, of course), when they just remove those ridiculous things :o ;D ;D
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If russian troop throw rocks what next? rocks are OP! ??? :D
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If russian troop throw rocks what next? rocks are OP! ??? :D
Depends what stats will those rocks have. ::)
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they do 15 damage and have 60 range! with a moving modifier of 1 :P
the gunless conscripts learn to improvise and gain new tactic
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I like to thank everyone reading.
I'd like to thank the academy.
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I like to thank everyone reading.
I'd like to thank the academy.
What?
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I like to thank everyone reading.
I'd like to thank the academy.
What?
Just a bot :P.
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I hate the 8 PopCap. Before they were spam able. Now there a waste of Popcap. I thought tank hunters were used in large numbers, 2 or 4?
8 is to much, I would prefer 6 so I can build at least 3 before I reach 20 cap, with is a third of my force.
I didn't think of mosins as op. Though am guessing now they might be since all those people are carrying them.
Reducing squad members to 3 then?
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No way. Just live with this 8 pop thing.
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No way. Just live with this 8 pop thing.
I wont. :P
1.4 Beta changed them to 4 pop again since PTRD dmg vs infantry has been fixed (no more 1 shot kills).
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No way. Just live with this 8 pop thing.
I wont. :P
1.4 Beta changed them to 4 pop again since PTRD dmg vs infantry has been fixed (no more 1 shot kills).
And so this topic meets it's end ;).