Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Hamasei on March 28, 2011, 11:33:09 PM
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I have some questions, balance issues, posible solutions about tanks in EF:
I undestand why panther dont kill infantry in vcoh, its balance, you have the rest of the army to kill infantry.
Jagdpanther its the same, dont kill everithing because is a tank hunter.
I understand why Tiger And KT kill everithing, tiger is too expensive 800MP , and you only can call a KT ones by 500MP, 2 tanks need 9 CP points, are docTanks, their role is a doc role like Howitzer, Pershing, Hummel ETC all Doc "super werapons" but I dont undestand why Is-2 kill everything with no doc and no CP and a bit expensive than the panther why? in my oponion Is 2 could be a AT tank for balance the game, in Aniquilate with no pop cap no way to kill 5 Is2, they are like a tiger 1, destroy everithing.
Posbile solutions:
- Limit the IS2 possible ingame at the same time to 2.
(the best ideia in my opinion)
OR
- Unlimit the tiger1 ingame possible units to be able to use blitzdoc in aniquilate no pop cap, or put the limit to 2. (other good idea in my opinion)
( i have readed a argument to disscus this idea in other topic like this: IS2 tank in ww2 was 2313123 tiger only 500 or something like that but in ww2 only was 87-105 wirbelwind and 45!! ostwin please how many tigers was in fiel in ww2 is not an argument for COH balance.)
OR
- Change the accuracy of the panther to be able to kill infantry. LOL
(i dont like this idea but i dont like IS2 all role is unfair balancing)
OR
- Change the accuracy of the IS2 to only be able to kill tanks like panther.
(will be more fair and fun, soviet player have easy long game win presently)
In a 4v4 nopop mach if 3 soviet players take heavy assault doc they can build 3 Isu152 at the same time and 6-7-8-9-10 O.O IS2 is totaly unstoppable with katiuxka spam to destroy all AT infantry and all At guns-weak axi tank hunters, axi players only can do 4 super heavy tanks ones or 4 tiger1 at the same time..
Please searh a solution for this :) it will make the long nopop games more fun and gg.
Another question where is the KV1? i did not play past V.EF and KV1 is interesting tank.
Plese if you dont like this post disscus it with balance arguments thx.
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I'm doubtful that unit changes should ever be done with any regard to any none-traditional multiplayer game mode (i.e. no pop cap).
Basically, if you choose no pop cap, you agree, that it (the game) is already crippled. Otherwise, it appears, as if you turned on some cheat mode, and then started complaining about balance.
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Indeed no pop-cap essentially breaks the game. It shouldn't be used for balancing.
Also, Panthers are actually pretty good versus infantry...
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IS-2 has lower speed, turret speed, accuracy, accuracy on the move gun range and reload speed than a Panther.
Panthers are much better at circlestrafing, chasing damaged tanks and you can get them to vet 3 without fighting or call-in 2 of them for only 1000MP. PE also has the AT halftrack that can brake treads leaving IS-2 outranged.
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Indeed no pop-cap essentially breaks the game. It shouldn't be used for balancing.
Also, Panthers are actually pretty good versus infantry...
mmmmm sure? LOL
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IS-2 has lower speed, turret speed, accuracy, accuracy on the move gun range and reload speed than a Panther.
Panthers are much better at circlestrafing, chasing damaged tanks and you can get them to vet 3 without fighting or call-in 2 of them for only 1000MP. PE also has the AT halftrack that can brake treads leaving IS-2 outranged.
Na we tested the IS-2 in beta. It actually has the exact same reload speed as the panther, and in a head-on slug fest, can beat the panther shot for shot and live with half its health remaining.
All the other things you said are true though. The Panther seems more agile.
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Indeed no pop-cap essentially breaks the game. It shouldn't be used for balancing.
Also, Panthers are actually pretty good versus infantry...
mmmmm sure? LOL
What part of my post were you referring to? ??? Either way, i'm pretty sure about both...
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IS-2 has lower speed, turret speed, accuracy, accuracy on the move gun range and reload speed than a Panther.
Panthers are much better at circlestrafing, chasing damaged tanks and you can get them to vet 3 without fighting or call-in 2 of them for only 1000MP. PE also has the AT halftrack that can brake treads leaving IS-2 outranged.
your arguments are good yes, but think about the pop game and the no pop game, if you put pop game you cant do alot of IS2, 2 limit is ok for have other things in your army or not? it will be good for make no pop game more fun.. :)
Post Merge: [time]lun 28 mar 2011 14:20:19 GMT+8[/time]
Indeed no pop-cap essentially breaks the game. It shouldn't be used for balancing.
Also, Panthers are actually pretty good versus infantry...
mmmmm sure? LOL
What part of my post were you referring to? ??? Either way, i'm pretty sure about both...
Panthers arent good vs infantry men learn about the game first and then speak please.. :(
no pop cap limit break the game if in the game are units like IS2 with overpower. with other units dont break the game.
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OP panther blob definitely breaks the no pop game in my opinion. It's just so frustrating to see them being frequently called in in pairs and practically for free. So lets limit them as well, to, say, no more than 1 panther battle group in, like, 10 minutes (time needs to be adjusted a bit), and no more than 5 panthers on the field at any given time. ;D ;D ;D
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OP panther blob definitely breaks the no pop game in my opinion. It's just so frustrating to see them being frequently called in in pair and practically for free. So lets limit the as well, to, say, no more than 1 panther battle group in, like, 10 minutes (time needs to be adjusted a bit). ;D ;D ;D
Lets talk about balance please, panther cant beat good the AT guns and de AT infantry IS2 yes, then, panther blob is stoppable by AT guns men! try to use the weak of the units to kill it, IS2 dont have a weak point in spam. 8) 8) 8)
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I am talking about balance:
panther battle group is practically free, it is especially well illustrated, when one loses most of the map, has nothing but his bare ass, and then, all of a sudden, he pops up two second best (first best among mass productive) tanks! WTF??
Besides, AT guns take forever to kill a panther and are easily wiped out by infantry, so you shouldn't refer to these here. It's like saying: "Hey! Germans have 88 to kill IS2!"
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Unless Panthers were nerfed in a patch or something, they are very accurate versus infantry, and blow them up real good. How is that not good versus infantry?
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Unless Panthers were nerfed in a patch or something, they are very accurate versus infantry, and blow them up real good. How is that not good versus infantry?
Ok in Vcohtov Panthers arent good vs infantry and never will be good vs infantry because balance. I will try it in VEF
Post Merge: [time]lun 28 mar 2011 14:52:01 GMT+8[/time]
I am talking about balance:
panther battle group is practically free, it is especially well illustrated, when one loses most of the map, has nothing but his bare ass, and then, all of a sudden, he pops up two second best (first best among mass productive) tanks! WTF??
Besides, AT guns take forever to kill a panther and are easily wiped out by infantry, so you shouldn't refer to these here. It's like saying: "Hey! Germans have 88 to kill IS2!"
1000 MP is free for you? LOL, no, germans have pack 38 to kill al tanks and pack 88 to make a "No enemy tank Area" LOLLOLLOL
mmmm dont lose the map :D! and combine units, guards, AT guns, Tanks, Arty you want to play alwais with 2-3 same spam units ? ahha OK but i want more fun game.
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Don't be too picky: 1000 mp is free, compared to the real cost.
And in the absence of 24 pop I find this frustrating (or simply unfair, if you will), if not overwhelming. ::)
Yeah, about paks: right now, these are only symbolically more expensive, a lot better, stealthy, and vet without fighting.
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What is this "real cost" you speak of? ??? I find that Manpower is the post restrictive resource, particularly late-game.
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^^ Too bad for you.
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That doesn't exactly answer my question... ::)
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Sorry, was away: 600 mp (+100 mp more than called-in ones), 110 fuel, 12 pop
So, yeah, called-in ones are pretty much free in comparison, plus, they just "appear" out of nowhere!
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Unless Panthers were nerfed in a patch or something, they are very accurate versus infantry, and blow them up real good. How is that not good versus infantry?
Ok in Vcohtov Panthers arent good vs infantry and never will be good vs infantry because balance. I will try it in VEF
I trayed in EF, Panther are the same, shit vs infantry. Please dont use Ilogical Arguments, if you dont understand good the game dont send me to test units!
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Panthers have 60% accuracy against infantry and virtually no splash damage. Essentially they kill 1 man every 2 shots which isn't very good.
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^^ No one (except paria) here posed, that they're "good" against infantry. They have other strong sides. See Paciat's post, so I won't have to repeat it.
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1000 MP for 2 VS 1200 MP and 240 fuel for 2 as wehrmacht. Considering they also come at once rather than separate, I find that's a pretty good deal.
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^^ No one (except paria) here posed, that they're "good" against infantry. They have other strong sides. See Paciat's post, so I won't have to repeat it.
sorri but the problem is the diferece acuracy betwen panther an IS2, I think people is very hapy the overIS2 but is unbalanced that its all.
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1000 MP for 2 VS 1200 MP and 240 fuel for 2 as wehrmacht. Considering they also come at once rather than separate, I find that's a pretty good deal.
Do you ever actually read the thread before posting ???
Yeah! That's a good deal! Too damn good!! Especially with pop limit raised.
@Hamasei
Aren't you forgetting something? Like cost (including teching up), muni upkeep, low (starting) accuracy (which is important, unless you're fighting at point-blank distance), lower (than panther's, and even AT trucks) range, unavailable non-combat vetting, etc.
Anyway, you started off at saying there should be a limit on these things for no pop cap games' purposes. And now you come down to just saying, it's simply OP? I don't follow, sorry ???
Besides that, I'm not happy about IS2:
I'd like to see it stronger (more like tiger, only better), with 1/2 limit, but only along with lowering teching up price for t-34/85
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Unless Panthers were nerfed in a patch or something, they are very accurate versus infantry, and blow them up real good. How is that not good versus infantry?
Ok in Vcohtov Panthers arent good vs infantry and never will be good vs infantry because balance. I will try it in VEF
I trayed in EF, Panther are the same, shit vs infantry. Please dont use Ilogical Arguments, if you dont understand good the game dont send me to test units!
What the fuck is your problem, man? ??? You're the 1 who decided to test it! ::) As i said, it could have changed in a patch. There is nothing illogical about that.
Panthers are a tank-killer. For a tank-killer, they are quite good against infantry. Compare them to, say, the Marder III, which can barely hit any infantry ever, and they are pretty good. I like to use Panthers as general-purpose tanks. When playing as the Wehrmacht, i find no reason to buy a Panzer IV unless i'm low on resources and desperately need more tanks. Panthers aren't as good as Panzer IVs or Tigers vs infantry, but they're still pretty good.
Please, try to test the unit when testing the unit, rather than just look at the 2 in the unit stats. ::)
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Killing 1 man every 2 shots is not good at all. It's no use comparing them to a marder when they still suck. That's like saying pio MP40s are better than engineer grease guns, therefore they must be good against infantry. Panthers have some use against weapons teams because of their low number and have decent infantry crush with their speed, maneuverability and shape. That is the extent of their AI capability. They are excellent tank "hunters" though because of their speed and ranged penetration. Panthers are a joy to control in tank battles. P4s are vastly better against infantry by firing faster, hitting most of the time and taking out several per shot sometimes. There's also more of them, since they're cheaper.
Back on topic: The IS2 is fine. It has a ton of health and great damage but is a brick on the battlefield. It's like a weak KT. The thing is simply a shell magnet until it dies, while not doing any great amount of damage back against a prepared foe. It has a slow reload and worse accuracy than panthers against infantry but have a 4m blast radius (which only kill infantry with a direct hit and enemy infantry on the outskirts of the blast radius lose ~1/2 health). It is much more of a general heavy tank than the Panther and a little more like a Tiger in role.
Personally I've never really thought IS2s were very scary. Their slow speed just makes them targets. Panthers are much scarier since their speed allows good players to attack anywhere with them and escape from trouble to return.
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Don't forget that the Panther has pretty heavy armor. Rifles, of course, can't do anything to it, but infantry anti-tank weapons aren't so good either. In my experience, Panthers are decent anti-infantry tanks. If you want a REAL anti-infantry tank, buy an Ostwind or Stubby. ;)
But i obviously can't say anything about the balance of the Soviet units, so i'll leave this topic now.
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I agree that, even if the panther isnt a AI tank, its quite useful vetted, as they get their MG42.
For the IS-2, I dont really use them, mainly for the reasons GodlikeDennis mentionned: lack of speed, low accuracy and reload speed... They arent really the beast they are supposed to be in my eyes. T34-85 are deadly in comparison.
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If you're looking for a AI tank go with the Ostwind. It's armor is weak but will clean up tank hunters. Panthers are meant to be tank hunters but instead are more well-rounded tanks than anything. It excels at AT but can do decent at AI because of MG42 and MG34 additions with Wehr Vet.
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another wehr fanboy wanting more buffs for a noob dominated faction
learn to play first then come to balance discussion
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another wehr fanboy wanting more buffs for a noob dominated faction
learn to play first then come to balance discussion
Watch it buddy, that's not going to get you good praise on the forums, considering you have 1 measly post, which is that negatory comment. I don't have OF so I don't have a choice for an axis doctrine.
And if anything Wehr tanks need some adjustments that will nerf, not buff it. Burst fire on the Ostwind is absurd. You hear 6 pings in .2 second succession and you've got a platter of riflemen fried.
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I didnt come here in search of praise
nor did I come looking for trouble comrade just got a good laugh after reading OPs thread
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^^ What is this senseless ranting for, companero? - Leave him alone with his dreams. (I guess, you were referring to the topic starter's point of view, right?)
Just don't forget to justify all the contras to 'em, so you won't find yourself in situation, that these come true, one day. ;)
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yes i was referring to OP, however my italian comrade is right I shouldnt have spent my first post in such a angry way
I dont think however that the panther should be buffed to kill infantry easier, its a rediculous request.
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Thought you were referring to me, my apologies.
But yea, panthers don't need a buff.
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yes i was referring to OP, however my italian comrade is right I shouldnt have spent my first post in such a angry way
I dont think however that the panther should be buffed to kill infantry easier, its a rediculous request.
Use more respectul words and balance arguments thx! I will not disccus with you if you brak like a dog.
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"If you behave like a bitch, I'll slap you like a bitch!" (c) ;D ;D ;D
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yes i was referring to OP, however my italian comrade is right I shouldnt have spent my first post in such a angry way
I dont think however that the panther should be buffed to kill infantry easier, its a rediculous request.
Use more respectul words and balance arguments thx! I will not disccus with you if you brak like a dog.
Modifying the stats of Panthers is a no-no. Eastern Front won't modify vanilla stats, unless is in the expert's changelist (and will be nearly obsolete since the upcoming patch) or is a clearly glitch (e.g. stug's glitch fixed in the last patch, read changelog for further reference ;)). We won't modify stats for axis tanks (other than reward units implemented in EF if necessary or future Ostheer tanks) in any way. About the IS2, afaik it won't be changed.
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I agree that, even if the panther isnt a AI tank, its quite useful vetted, as they get their MG42.
For the IS-2, I dont really use them, mainly for the reasons GodlikeDennis mentionned: lack of speed, low accuracy and reload speed... They arent really the beast they are supposed to be in my eyes. T34-85 are deadly in comparison.
If I recall the IS2 has the same movement stats as a Pershing so its not really slow. However, like that Panther it is an expensive specialist tank in most respects so you cannot really spam them. Its just a 'big boy' that will take on most german heavies 121 and kick their ass...an 'anti heavy tank'- tank if you'd like. The slow firing gun means it cannot deal with any significant infantry threat.
Your main tank is meant to be the T34. the T34/76 will loose a straight up fight with a PzIV, especially at vet1. A PzIV should always keep on the move when facing T34s.
T34/85s on the other hand will always just about win with a sliver of health left even vs vet3 PzIVs
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ive seen t34's win against PIV's plenty of times, its main gun actually has the same penetration as the upgunned sherman, you just have to keep it close to the PIV to make up for its lack of accuracy
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I agree that, even if the panther isnt a AI tank, its quite useful vetted, as they get their MG42.
For the IS-2, I dont really use them, mainly for the reasons GodlikeDennis mentionned: lack of speed, low accuracy and reload speed... They arent really the beast they are supposed to be in my eyes. T34-85 are deadly in comparison.
If I recall the IS2 has the same movement stats as a Pershing so its not really slow. However, like that Panther it is an expensive specialist tank in most respects so you cannot really spam them. Its just a 'big boy' that will take on most german heavies 121 and kick their ass...an 'anti heavy tank'- tank if you'd like. The slow firing gun means it cannot deal with any significant infantry threat.
Yeah, my argument about speed was flawed... But what annoy is that it cant deal properly with anything, if it has a so low accuracy and rate of fire. It cant even deal properly with buildings - T34 do that just better.
I agree that these tank shouldnt be spammable, but, IMO, their low combat effectiveness makes them useless, unless you have resources to waste.
I'm pretty sure that it happened at least 4 times, that my IS-2 missed 3 times successively its target. I was like :o --> :'( and ceased to use them.
I would recommand a slight accuracy buff, but I'm not the most experienced player there.
Keep the same rate of fire though. Dont want it to be a real big -bad- boy.
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ive seen t34's win against PIV's plenty of times, its main gun actually has the same penetration as the upgunned sherman, you just have to keep it close to the PIV to make up for its lack of accuracy
Thats why it is so important to get German tanks to vet 1. Both T-34 have an increased dmg multiplier vs PzIV (1.15) but when you will get tank vet it will take only 85% of dmg.
As for IS-2 accuracy. Stop before shooting. Same goes for Cromwells and Tigers.
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As for IS-2 accuracy. Stop before shooting. Same goes for Cromwells and Tigers.
I can swear that I know how to micro my tanks, and especially my IS2 as I tried to maximise their effect.
EDIT: Also I could have been victim of my own luck. But still. :)
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despite the bad accuracy of the IS2, its armor seems to more than make up for it.
it has 1100 health (compare to pershing- 900 and tiger- 1060) and has the same armor type of the pershing as well. i would rather trade the armor though for a better gun
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1000 MP for 2 VS 1200 MP and 240 fuel for 2 as wehrmacht. Considering they also come at once rather than separate, I find that's a pretty good deal.
Don't forget, that PE don't have artillery, just the Hotchkiss' stuka, that is only good for vs. infantry, Also, PE units cant crush hedges, and tank traps to go open a new front on a digged in US or brit front. With the new patch, all factions quite balanced, but there is bug what I don't know they fixed, that a second panther don't come in, even if you have the pop cap, so someone can be happy. :)
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PE can use the battlegroup, jagdpanther or the bergetiger to crush hedges. The second panther won't build if you initially have the 24 pop for the two, but somewhere between the first arriving and the second arriving you drop below 12 remaining pop because of a unit being built or reinforced, or losing territory. The patch will reduce the time it takes for the second panther to arrive to minimise this window.
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PE can use the battlegroup, jagdpanther or the bergetiger to crush hedges. The second panther won't build if you initially have the 24 pop for the two, but somewhere between the first arriving and the second arriving you drop below 12 remaining pop because of a unit being built or reinforced, or losing territory. The patch will reduce the time it takes for the second panther to arrive to minimise this window.
Sometimes this happens when you got the pop cap. For example, this happened wit 80/12 pop cap, so it's clearly a bug. And thanks for the tip, I overlooked the Bergetiger. :D I just wrote down the non-doctrinal units.
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I see the logic in your argument regarding mass production of Is's but what I can say is that they are extremely expensive, it takes a while to gather the resources to produce even your first Is before even producing a second.
What I would suggest in this case (Since they are no trouble in Pop cap mode, there is no need to nerf the pop capacity) Either increase the manpower or fuel cost of the IS-2 to give disincentive to save up for an Is-2 since if one dicides to, they'll have to issue some spending cuts on reinforcing and deploying other stuff.
Or it could be done that the accuracy of IS-2's against infantry is decreased, I agree with you when you say they are too accurate against infantry, that needs to be decreased.
Although in no pop cap game mode I think this will make the game "fairer" I myself am a soviet player so. *Decrease costs of IS-2.....*
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uhm if anything the is-2 is over priced.dont suggest increasing its cost in place of population!!!1 ill cry
my suggestion is to adjust t34/85 upgrade so its a viable option instead of the popular straight to is-2
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how you can ask for increase price of soviet stuffs youre crazy all red army its very expensive now im asking for the oppsite i think that you want to rush without ressistance lol