Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Dot.Shadow on May 27, 2011, 03:36:18 PM
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The conscripts were praised as amazing in the donors forum with their veterancy. Unfortunately I have a hard time seeing them being good at anything. Most of my time I have them back at some point reinforcing them or healing them, as they die of practically right away.
Now, I do realise that they are supposed to be bad, but it leaves the soviets at at such a disadvantage early on. The Wehrmacht have MG teams, snipers and the absolutely fantastic MP40 upgrade. A player with any kind of micro skill can easily beat the soviets with a MG and a mp40 volks squad.
I also realise that the molotov cocktail is supposed to be a counter to these problems, but at 50 munitions and 20 fuel (I think it's roughly that fuel cost at least) it's much better to tech for a sniper/AT gun or a PTRD/mortar squad which will get the job of clearing out those pesky MGs much faster than a costly charge and throwing a molotov.
I am also concerned with their veterancy progression. From what I gather they earn recrewing capabilities at vet 1, a full set of rifles at vet 2 and become un-suppressable at vet 3. I've so far managed to get a squad to vet 1 in a match, and that was at the very end destroying the enemy's base. Even if one puts a great deal of effort into vetting them the unit is still far weaker than easier options.
I'd like to suggest changing the vet 1 and vet 2 bonuses around. This will make it easier to give the squad veterancy, and it does make sense in terms of weapon experience. The squad starts off with minimal training and only a handful of guns. At vet 1 they've managed to acquire regular rifles (perhaps even looted kar98k's?), and at vet 2 they've earned enough combat experience to know how to operate a heavy weapon.
I'd also like to suggest removing the molotov's munitions cost, and instead giving it a manpower cost, on par with the Panzer Elite's incendiary grenades.
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The conscripts were praised as amazing in the donors forum with their veterancy. Unfortunately I have a hard time seeing them being good at anything. Most of my time I have them back at some point reinforcing them or healing them, as they die of practically right away.
They are fine, I'll gladly show you in a game. You still get strelky after 35 FU if you don't like them.
Now, I do realise that they are supposed to be bad, but it leaves the soviets at at such a disadvantage early on. The Wehrmacht have MG teams, snipers and the absolutely fantastic MP40 upgrade. A player with any kind of micro skill can easily beat the soviets with a MG and a mp40 volks squad.
I also realise that the molotov cocktail is supposed to be a counter to these problems, but at 50 munitions and 20 fuel (I think it's roughly that fuel cost at least) it's much better to tech for a sniper/AT gun or a PTRD/mortar squad which will get the job of clearing out those pesky MGs much faster than a costly charge and throwing a molotov.
I am also concerned with their veterancy progression. From what I gather they earn recrewing capabilities at vet 1, a full set of rifles at vet 2 and become un-suppressable at vet 3. I've so far managed to get a squad to vet 1 in a match, and that was at the very end destroying the enemy's base. Even if one puts a great deal of effort into vetting them the unit is still far weaker than easier options.
I'd like to suggest changing the vet 1 and vet 2 bonuses around. This will make it easier to give the squad veterancy, and it does make sense in terms of weapon experience. The squad starts off with minimal training and only a handful of guns. At vet 1 they've managed to acquire regular rifles (perhaps even looted kar98k's?), and at vet 2 they've earned enough combat experience to know how to operate a heavy weapon.
How you describe it was initially how it was. It was a last minute change to swap vet1 and 2. Instead I would suggest to keep it the way it is but lower the vet requirements to 6/12/24.
I'd also like to suggest removing the molotov's munitions cost, and instead giving it a manpower cost, on par with the Panzer Elite's incendiary grenades.
No reason to.
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They are fine, I'll gladly show you in a game. You still get strelky after 35 FU if you don't like them.
Bring it on mate ;) I'm called Manslayer3 ingame. The first few units in the match can make or break an entire game. CoHO showed this clearer than ever before.
How you describe it was initially how it was. It was a last minute change to swap vet1 and 2. Instead I would suggest to keep it the way it is but lower the vet requirements to 6/12/24.
I suppose this could work as well. What are the requirements now?
No reason to.
I'd say there is a reason. Especially if the vet requirements are not lowered. It would give the Soviets a proper counter to their problems.
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The vet requirements are currently 8/16/32 I think, which is too high for lowly Soviets.
The change you propose to the upgrade is meaningless.
It would give the Soviets a proper counter to their problems.
This makes no sense. It doesn't actually change anything but make molotovs easier to get. Molotovs are actually quite OP. They need their cooldown increased.
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^^ right after axis hmgs get some fair nerf (like slower movement, or higher cost)
As for xp, it NEEDS to be set lower - these guys are 37 hp ffs.
As for mp cost, I don't think soviets need yet another mp draining upgrade.
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yeah conscripts got nerfed, they died in hordes to begin with and STILL they give 2XP a kill, when facing PE they give vet faster than US or Brit, it should be changed and lowered
the correct vet bonus' are as follows
vet1 .95 received damage
vet2 rifles
vet3 unsupressable
and its 8/16/24 vet, which is actually very hard to attain - Im not so sure it should be changed however if anything I think there nerfs should be reversed
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Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.
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Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.
mods plz make sure dennis' account hast been hacked this must be some imposter :P ;D
I've always agreed with that dennis if you put a few mg42's in the right place it will effectively win you the game, and that early on the game shouldnt be decided by such a mindless unit
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Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.
There wasn't much of that to begin with, IMO. But ATM it's just fxcking insane >:(
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Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.
You dont need a nerd yo mg42, you need to do a 2 - 3 sides atac. MG 42 only can atac to 1 flanks.
The nerf will sopose an anothoer advedtange to soviets men, also you have 2 sniper men team! if you can kill a mg team with 1 usa sniper, or only with british sniper hability, with 2 men snipers you cant ?!?! O.O you need a neerf to the mg42!! OMG the Wer is suposed to be little defensive at first and need a good mg because if it dont have Wer player can lose all ground! The prices of the units are too expensive (volks 280 -> USA riflemen 270) Riflemen are better and are more cheaper because you can use volks with sniper or with mg at early game but when you have this usa player have 3 squads you understand? and you cant take ground if usa player dont do mistakes.
With USSR snipers are shit vs 8 men squads, then you only can do a MG with volks and moto or swin. with wer you are limited to a concrete tactic and you want to nerf the wer unique early tactic to nerf all wer players early game or what?
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This is not a personal attack but it seems like you've missed the point, and have an unsatisfactory understanding of balance as a whole
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Now why you guys think the soviet mortar has it's mortar ability again. Btw remeber: Research the molotov cocktail upgrade. They will burn the shit out of those MGs. Also use the charge ability of your Command squad...
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Guys, could we keep it to the conscripts? ^^
I've noticed as of late that the molotovs seem to have a near 100% chance to damage a vehicles engine. This seems rather OP, and is extremely annoying. A fair chance is okay, but the near 100% is really annoying.
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Yeah they were supposed to have only a small chance but I theorise the damage over time aspect of molotovs lets them reroll this chance 8 times a second (once per tick). It's yet another OP aspect of the molotovs now.
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Actually I agree with a nerf to MG42s. There's no longer any skill to using them if they just pack up and rotate faster than you can flank. I was disgusted at how easily a rather crap player fought off my rifles yesterday. The pack up speed should be reverted.
You dont need a nerd yo mg42, you need to do a 2 - 3 sides atac. MG 42 only can atac to 1 flanks.
The nerf will sopose an anothoer advedtange to soviets men, also you have 2 sniper men team! if you can kill a mg team with 1 usa sniper, or only with british sniper hability, with 2 men snipers you cant ?!?! O.O you need a neerf to the mg42!! OMG the Wer is suposed to be little defensive at first and need a good mg because if it dont have Wer player can lose all ground! The prices of the units are too expensive (volks 280 -> USA riflemen 270) Riflemen are better and are more cheaper because you can use volks with sniper or with mg at early game but when you have this usa player have 3 squads you understand? and you cant take ground if usa player dont do mistakes.
With USSR snipers are shit vs 8 men squads, then you only can do a MG with volks and moto or swin. with wer you are limited to a concrete tactic and you want to nerf the wer unique early tactic to nerf all wer players early game or what?
Dispite the very messy appearence I think I get what he's trying to say:
Use 2-3 way attacks to "flank the MG42" (The pack up time and set up makes it harder to micro manage.)
You can't do it with two men sniper team (kill MG42 crew members). Alright I'm going to have to cut you off there. The sniper team has 1 sniper and 1 observer. In other words, there's only one man that "snipes" the other has the binoculars and uses an ordinary rifle! If you haven't grasped that fact you can't argue that point, you understand? They have no more advantage than recon sections really.
He reckons the wehr is very defensive at the start because of the riflemen blobs can take more advantage cause they are cheaper and easier to reinforce and there are just so many of them. Therefore the nerf of the MG42 does not make sense. But my question is what about the players that do WSC (weapon support) starts and not Barracks?
He then literally says "The wehr relies on concrete tactics and now you want to nerf that for all wehr players" I'm sorry, your line of logic aint follow.
My conclusion: Nazi fanboy (plz ignore his post) Balance > Nazi fanboys
However, as awesome as you are GodlikeDennis, are you sure you haven't overlooked something? :-\
Conscripts are cannon fodder. It even says so in their description. People that rely on them too much will be in trouble. I agree with you that the vets should be made easier at 6/12/24 but can you really demand a nerf because they are not like that?
No, I am not a Nazi fanboy (I much prefer allies) and perhaps I haven't seen the bigger picture but I don't really think they need to be nerfed since .30 cal also has a similar stat now. If I have missed something could you please enlighten me. Oh and that game vs crap player. Can you post it?
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Guys, could we keep it to the conscripts? ^^
I've noticed as of late that the molotovs seem to have a near 100% chance to damage a vehicles engine. This seems rather OP, and is extremely annoying. A fair chance is okay, but the near 100% is really annoying.
I've replaced those criticals (kept them for red damage level) for destroy secondary weapons ones. Also doubled the recharge time.
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If it weren't for insane molotovs, conscripts would be perfect the way they are. They're decent but the impetus to upgrade to strelky or other better troops would still be there. At the moment, insane OP spammable molotovs means everyone blobs and charges throwing fireballs at everyone who resists.
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Now, what exactly is OP about these molotovs?
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Now, what exactly is OP about these molotovs?
Well, damaging engine of vehicle almost everytime is OP, especially for a 224mp squad.
With 3 molotovs, I managed to destroy a puma in some second. And remember that CS and N.I also get them.
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Well, damaging engine of vehicle almost everytime is OP, especially for a 224mp squad.
Why? It doesn't immobilize a vehicle. You can still drive away, if you wish. And the upgrade cost has been risen, and it no longer gives you 7 rifles 1 ppsh UNSUPPRESSIBLE squad. And after all that NERFING you say those pathetic molotovs are OP? Give it a brake, people!
With 3 molotovs, I managed to destroy a puma in some second. And remember that CS and N.I also get them.
That is impossible, unless the puma was already dead.
Replay to the studio!!!
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Come on! Dont get so angry, we are discussing about balance, and everyone can throw his impression/ideas. It's for a constructive objective!
You can still drive away a vehicle with a damaged engine; its easy when you are facing only conscript that cant do much by themselves after their molotovs. But when you are facing an AT gun, or TH/guards with AT nades, the lowered speed mean that your vehicle will take more damage from them. It wouldnt be a problem if a single molotov would almost always damage the engine.
I'm not saying that the molotov shouldnt damage the engine at all; its nice that you can expect at some point to stop a tank, but a FREE molotov which can slow down for a while a KT (or whatever) each time is OP, at least for me.
As for the puma, I dont usually keep my replays anymore. You can accuse me of being a liar, a hypocrite or whatever you want, it wont hurt me. It's just a lesson, and the next time I will keep replays when strange thing happen. Consider my previous statement with the puma wrong. 'nuff said.
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I'm not angry :)
I'm just saying, that a more powerful molotov, which it is, is a mere (and far from fair) compensation for all the drawbacks done to soviet tier1. So, if you want it reversed, it would only be right, that all the nerfs, or at least most of them, should be reversed as well.
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AFAIK, it was never intended that molotovs destroy engines so, that will be rolled back in the next patch.
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AFAIK, it was never intended that molotovs destroy engines so, that will be rolled back in the next patch.
I think damage engine criticals are in order for Molotovs. Reducing the chance of a critical engine hit may be jn order but I've found that micro is the most effective way to avoid the problem. When a Sov squad throws a molotov dance away from it. One idea that might be considered for Petrol Bombs is adding a 5 Fuel cost per use. The coctails were developed as an ad hoc anti-vehicle weapon and extensive use should delay the production of vehicular units. This would be a fair trade off to compensate for all those damaged engines. The comment was made that the molotov upgrade comes too early. I tend to agree with this. I think the armory upgrade cost needs modified to place it more in line with PE's incendiary grenade research cost. (Increase the fuel cost not the muni cost).
Why is it necessary to increase squad size to conscripts when the petrol bombs are introduced? The commisar is no longer there and the upgrade effects three different squads.
It was stated that conscripts become unsuppressible at vet 3. Why? A low grade infantry unit shouldn,t have this ability. Why not reduce the received damage a little?
As far as balance concerns go how do the stats for PE incendiary grenades damage/duration stack up to molotovs? Gasoline burns pretty quickly.
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AFAIK, it was never intended that molotovs destroy engines so, that will be rolled back in the next patch.
As far as I remember, it was one of the most popular ideas having to do with molotovs. And I regret, it is going to be taken away, especially since all those t1 nerfs are there to stay.
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what does everyone think of the new conscript vet? is it any good or is it useless? is it too hard to obtain or too easy?
ive personally never gotten a vet3 con squad in pvp Im looking for some feedback I have a hunch that vet values should be lowered a tiny bit
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AFAIK, it was never intended that molotovs destroy engines so, that will be rolled back in the next patch.
As far as I remember, it was one of the most popular ideas having to do with molotovs. And I regret, it is going to be taken away, especially since all those t1 nerfs are there to stay.
Molotows work the same way as Incendiary nades of rifles damaging all light armor up to a Stuart. The only difference is that allies use less really light armor (like BREN carrier or Sdkfz 22x) and that molotovs are free.
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what does everyone think of the new conscript vet? is it any good or is it useless? is it too hard to obtain or too easy?
ive personally never gotten a vet3 con squad in pvp Im looking for some feedback I have a hunch that vet values should be lowered a tiny bit
Tovarich,
I like the vet1 and vet2 alot. There seems to be a problem at vet two where you not only lose the vet1 advantage of weapons pick-up but previously acquired weapons as well. The notion of an 8M/8R squad with with rifles, light weapons pick-up (do they get the un-natural suppression from moving while firing Sov LMGs like Guards and Naval Infantry too?), molotovs and no suppression is a horrible idea. I.E. A five squad run up the center, (with maybe the ability to suppress infantry in its path), molotov the 88s, recrew them, and just for kicks add The Red Tide at 4 CP. Conscripts? Balance? I don't think so.
At vet3 a lower received damage from direct fire weapons might be appropriate to offset the low hit points. Maybe not, (PE 55/210HPs/255 MP cost vs Consripts, (37/296HPs/224MP cost)?
I don't think it is necessary to decrease the vet requirements. Vet1 and vet2 conscripts are fun to play with. But in all fairness they are no longer meat shields.
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At vet 1 they have a 5% received dmg bonus, but i added that as place holder, they could have a 15~10% i guess :-\.
Currently i'm not able to find a way to give them the capture weapon ability at any given time without crashing the game (it works, but when they get heavy fire coh crashes) XD.
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At vet 1 they have a 5% received dmg bonus, but i added that as place holder, they could have a 15~10% i guess :-\ .
Currently i'm not able to find a way to give them the capture weapon ability at any given time without crashing the game (it works, but when they get heavy fire coh crashes) XD.
The -5% received damage at vet1 seems OK at this point.
I have retrieved several weapons with Conscripts at vet1. They frequently don't make it back to a reinforce point but I've not had a crash because the squad is eliminated. I sorta think when you lose a squad that is heavy fire.
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At vet 1 they have a 5% received dmg bonus, but i added that as place holder, they could have a 15~10% i guess :-\ .
Currently i'm not able to find a way to give them the capture weapon ability at any given time without crashing the game (it works, but when they get heavy fire coh crashes) XD.
The -5% received damage at vet1 seems OK at this point.
I have retrieved several weapons with Conscripts at vet1. They frequently don't make it back to a reinforce point but I've not had a crash because the squad is eliminated. I sorta think when you lose a squad that is heavy fire.
Oh, that only happens with my current conscripts so don't worry about it.
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And they STILL supress grenadiers when focus firing. Seriously, please reduce the supression to Volks/Riflemen values. It's ridiculous how a bunch of guys with 4 rifles and 224 can supress wehr/pe t1 units.
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And they STILL supress grenadiers when focus firing. Seriously, please reduce the supression to Volks/Riflemen values. It's ridiculous how a bunch of guys with 4 rifles and 224 can supress wehr/pe t1 units.
They already have the half of the suppression values of those units.
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And they STILL supress grenadiers when focus firing. Seriously, please reduce the supression to Volks/Riflemen values. It's ridiculous how a bunch of guys with 4 rifles and 224 can supress wehr/pe t1 units.
They already have the half of the suppression values of those units.
Then I don't understand why they still supress :/
Does that have to do with nearby supression modifiers maybe? Or with the supression modifiers from command squad/ingenery?
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And they STILL supress grenadiers when focus firing. Seriously, please reduce the supression to Volks/Riflemen values. It's ridiculous how a bunch of guys with 4 rifles and 224 can supress wehr/pe t1 units.
They already have the half of the suppression values of those units.
Then I don't understand why they still supress :/
Does that have to do with nearby supression modifiers maybe? Or with the supression modifiers from command squad/ingenery?
I don't think so :-\. I've made a test without commissar and they still suppressed a pioneer squad.
Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong part, i'm looking at the suppression table located on the weapon file.
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[quote author=blackbishop link=topic=5959.msg73350#msg73350
I don't think so :-\. I've made a test without commissar and they still suppressed a pioneer squad.
Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong part, i'm looking at the suppression table located on the weapon file.
[/quote]
Strange. Have you changed every value? Like nearby supression value etc?
http://dow2.info/coh/Weapon_Wehrmacht_Kar98K_Elite.html (http://dow2.info/coh/Weapon_Wehrmacht_Kar98K_Elite.html)
That's an example for the supression tables of the Gren Kar98k. Maybe it helps. Dunno though.
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This is the current suppression table of conscript and engies rifles:
L 0.003
M 0.002
S 0.0005
Nearby Supp. Multiplier 0.1
Nearby Supp. Radius 10
Suppression values for Grens:
L 0.006
M 0.004
S 0.001
Nearby Supp. Multiplier 0.1
Nearby Supp. Radius 10
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Suppression modifier for target types?
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Suppression modifier for target types?
Yeah, i forgot about those.
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At vet3 the conscipts are unsuppressable, right?
Why not give the squad the commissar with PPS at vet3? He takes care that no soldier runs away
Vet1: recrew
Vet2: every soldier gets gun
Vet3: unsuppressable by commissar
The molotovs stays an independent upgrade (and will be hopefully nerved in the next patch)
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At vet3 the conscipts are unsuppressable, right?
Why not give the squad the commissar with PPS at vet3? He takes care that no soldier runs away
Vet1: recrew
Vet2: every soldier gets gun
Vet3: unsuppressable by commissar
The molotovs stays an independent upgrade (and will be hopefully nerved in the next patch)
That's the idea :-\... but it's the same reason that is keep us from add capture at vet2 that doesn't allow to add a commissar at vet3.
Hopefully conscripts suppression bug is now fixed.
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When i remember correctly the Landsers should get a officer too as upgrade
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I've changed my mind. The conscripts are as they are, with the exception of the vet requirements.
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When i remember correctly the Landsers should get a officer too as upgrade
Nope, it's not the same, not even similar.
You got a 5 man squad, and the upgrade grants the squad leader a MP40 and grenades, that's all. No change needed.
The Conscript upgrade will require a different soldier, in this case the commissar that is a total different entity than a conscript. Hence not possible.
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When i remember correctly the Landsers should get a officer too as upgrade
Nope, it's not the same, not even similar.
You got a 5 man squad, and the upgrade grants the squad leader a MP40 and grenades, that's all. No change needed.
The Conscript upgrade will require a different soldier, in this case the commissar that is a total different entity than a conscript. Hence not possible.
If I understand correctly, You have a 7 man squad, and the upgrade grants the squad leader aka commissar, a pistol or smg, still a 7 man squad, thats all; no change needed?
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one of soliders would have to chnage his skin, model and so on... maybe give them at Vet3. additional solider to reinforce - the Commisar?
Oh, and please, make Conscripts' number of guys in squad like the others ones, no 0/0.
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The Conscripts pop count is 0 and COH is unable to display the number of squad members if pop count is zero. I think that's how it was.
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just a question, but why don't you do it like the PE squads when you reaserch incresed squads sizes. you just make it so the need to reinforce to get the commissar and new squads will get him off the bat?
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The Conscripts pop count is 0 and COH is unable to display the number of squad members if pop count is zero. I think that's how it was.
If the pop count is 1 would the number of squad members be displayed properly? If so this might be incorporated when the upgrade occurs.
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When i remember correctly the Landsers should get a officer too as upgrade
Nope, it's not the same, not even similar.
You got a 5 man squad, and the upgrade grants the squad leader a MP40 and grenades, that's all. No change needed.
The Conscript upgrade will require a different soldier, in this case the commissar that is a total different entity than a conscript. Hence not possible.
If I understand correctly, You have a 7 man squad, and the upgrade grants the squad leader aka commissar, a pistol or smg, still a 7 man squad, thats all; no change needed?
Nope, the idea is to see the NKVD officer as part of conscripts. That is not possible (at least for now) unless you use it as part of the squad since the begining.
The Conscripts pop count is 0 and COH is unable to display the number of squad members if pop count is zero. I think that's how it was.
If the pop count is 1 would the number of squad members be displayed properly? If so this might be incorporated when the upgrade occurs.
Nope, they cost zero pop, if you increase it to one, they will cost 8 pop and they don't worth it.
just a question, but why don't you do it like the PE squads when you reaserch incresed squads sizes. you just make it so the need to reinforce to get the commissar and new squads will get him off the bat?
There's no such thing in CoH. You will only get one more member for each soldier loaded in the squad. E.g. PGrens have 3 soldiers of the same type, if they get one more member, will be of the same type of the existant one.
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How about just put a commissar as the squad leader from the start purely for the sake of art purposes?
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How about just put a commissar as the squad leader from the start purely for the sake of art purposes?
That could be possible... don't know if could be accepted though.
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and give him a mosin :o ?
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and give him a mosin :o ?
Nah, give him a pistol and treat him like any other concript until vet. The commissar is just a politico not a soldier and iirc from one of Stormovic's (sic), posts many commissars were executed for incompetence.
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and give him a mosin :o ?
Yes. He would use a mosin, like all the other conscripts. I think that would look weird and i think is the main reason to not change them.
and give him a mosin :o ?
Nah, give him a pistol and treat him like any other concript until vet. The commissar is just a politico not a soldier and iirc from one of Stormovic's (sic), posts many commissars were executed for incompetence.
Nope, changing the art file would be easy, mixing the pistol with the mosin rule wouldn't be wise at this stage. That's why we won't implement him as squad leader.
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what about giving him a Ppsh with semi-round fire? Like squad's leader Mp44 in Grendaiers and Volks squads? make stats exaclty same as mosins one and juts change model? We would have then 7 mosins and ppsh, which is exacly the same as mosin.
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what about giving him a Ppsh with semi-round fire? Like squad's leader Mp44 in Grendaiers and Volks squads? make stats exaclty same as mosins one and juts change model? We would have then 7 mosins and ppsh, which is exacly the same as mosin.
And when he dies another conscript will grab his ppsh, the officer will arrive without weapons if there are 4 conscripts left or more.
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what about giving him a Ppsh with semi-round fire? Like squad's leader Mp44 in Grendaiers and Volks squads? make stats exaclty same as mosins one and juts change model? We would have then 7 mosins and ppsh, which is exacly the same as mosin.
And when he dies another conscript will grab his ppsh, the officer will arrive without weapons if there are 4 conscripts left or more.
lol, didn't think about that ;D
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what about giving him a Ppsh with semi-round fire? Like squad's leader Mp44 in Grendaiers and Volks squads? make stats exaclty same as mosins one and juts change model? We would have then 7 mosins and ppsh, which is exacly the same as mosin.
And when he dies another conscript will grab his ppsh, the officer will arrive without weapons if there are 4 conscripts left or more.
thats ok hes there to inspire
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What if the only weapon he gets is a tokarev from the beginning? Would the pistol also be replaced by mosin after vet2?
I think to be unsupressable should be a timed ability like the command squad. If the comissar dies the ability is gone till he is reinforced.
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What if the only weapon he gets is a tokarev from the beginning? Would the pistol also be replaced by mosin after vet2?
I think to be unsupressable should be a timed ability like the command squad. If the comissar dies the ability is gone till he is reinforced.
That Idea is actually quite good. Add a commissar to the squad and give them the "unsupressable" timed ability unlocked @vet 3.
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What if the only weapon he gets is a tokarev from the beginning? Would the pistol also be replaced by mosin after vet2?
I think to be unsupressable should be a timed ability like the command squad. If the comissar dies the ability is gone till he is reinforced.
That Idea is actually quite good. Add a commissar to the squad and give them the "unsupressable" timed ability unlocked @vet 3.
Don't you mean more or less resurrecting the Execute ability from Penals :P. But yeah sounds better than the current arrangement for conscripts +1
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Like DOW
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MG42 don't need to be changed in any way, as in 2602 it is perfectly balanced. Players talking about MG42 "too overpower", "packing time too fast", etc, its because they don't know how to flank correctly with Riflemans (or Molotov Conscripts/PPSH RBS ;)).
About topic subject: I think Conscript Veterancy needs a buff. They are gaining veterancy tooooo slow. Its to dificult to have a Vet2 conscript in a 30 min game!!!
PS: posted just to give my opinion, as I already read that dev's are tweaking the Conscript vet for next patch.
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Conscripts will not have veterancy at all next patch.
2.602 has awful balance. Volks are far too cheap and the MG42 buff was unnecessary. The pack up speed makes MG + bike combos extremely strong at the start and sets the Wehr player up for a steamroll mid/lategame.
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yeah but the changes the devs made to the conscripts are a good compromise to the vet i think
but you will see it when the patch becomes final :D
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Conscripts will not have veterancy at all next patch.
2.602 has awful balance. Volks are far too cheap and the MG42 buff was unnecessary. The pack up speed makes MG + bike combos extremely strong at the start and sets the Wehr player up for a steamroll mid/lategame.
LOL. Denis, I play CoH since beta and can say that the 2.602 has the best balance EVER on all patchs of CoH since introduction of Brtit/PE on OF.
The buff on MG packing is too smal and necessary because the great buff on flamer (also necessary) that is used for flanking.
But i'm ok with conscripts don't having vet if they receive 4 aditional rifles on a cheap upgrade.
PS: I tottally disagree with vet 3 Conscripts being unsupressable, this would make useless the CS fire up, and make obsolete PPSH RBS. And beside that, Soviets already have so much ways to deal with mg's (CS art, sharpshoter, sharpshoter art, mortar, PPSH RBS, normal conscript flanking, etc).
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^^2.602 is one of the biggest fail patches ever released in cohs wacky history
gamereplays is ripe with rants from well respected and skilled players
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Why you say that RedGuard? I like to hear.
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I do not understand how the Molotov cocktail does damage to a TIGER! :o!
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Volk miniscule reinforce cost makes med bunker strats even better than before. MG packup time means that with bike push, it's extremely difficult to take out even a single MG. Wehr loses practically no MP in the early game from reinforcement but US has to pay out the ass for it. G43s are fucked now. Too much early game balance was messed with in the last patch. PE only needed the AT buffs. Wehr only needed a slight reduction to volk reinforce and the volk capping speed buff at skirmish phase. 2.601 had better balance in total barring roos. Brits were already fucked before, and completely fucked now.
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I'm curious to know WTF happened with G43. It was supposed to be a minor to medicore buff. They used to suck so badly. Now they rape face pretty damn hard. I used to never get them. Now, I don't even get Mp44s anymore lol
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Amazing how often Dennis uses the word fuck :D
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It's an Australian thing I guess. I try to tone it down but I was in a bad mood when I posted that one.
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Ha ha, I don't believe its an Australian thing, my friend, we all try to be civilised when we can :P
(Though its pretty ironic since the word originated in Britain when a TV producer said it by complete accident :D)
Post Merge: July 02, 2011, 01:42:38 PM
I'm really looking forward to the conscript changes though :P
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What was the purpose to delete the conscipts vet?
Plp dont build Strelky because of the conscripts, but of the op Guards. The lack of strengh of the guards in the next patch and the weakness of the cons leaves the player no other choice than to build strelky (even tech to RBS).
Deleting vet for conscripts is needless and makes this unit even more weak. Currently even the full rifles and the unsupressable ability at vetIII gives me no reason to waste my MP for a new squad in late game.The soldiers health is so weak that you will loose the squad even if you retreat in time. Saying that even the full rifles dont do enough damage against vetII or vetIII gren squads.
Currently i build 3 Squads of conscipts in early and no more. I keep them alive till late game where i usually loose them by ninja capping (as a fighting unit they are useless). So vetII or even vetIII conscipts are common. To support my Strelkys i build guards or Sturmovie ingenery NOT conscipts.
With deleting vet (and balance that by maybe make them cheaper by buying other upgrades, which is senseless because nobody will buy them later on) i dont know why is should waste my mp on them in middle game. On the other hand, wheni keep them in base, the lack of the soldiers would make a difference at the front.
The acutal vet system is ok i think:
Vet1: nothin yet (recrewing is chancelled) -> early game
Vet2: full rifles -> middle game
Vet3: unsupressable (which sould be a timed ability) -> late game
With the actual system their health per man and armor type wont change by gaining vet. So they will remain in late as weak as in early game
PS: pls change the MP cost. 224 MP??? to keep the balance i would make them even more expensive but not more than 250MP
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The conscript vet removal was not a balance change. We had nothing to do with it. It was a design decision by the devs.
What we are implementing is having conscript reinforcement cost reduced throughout the game. For each tech research you get (close range support, medium range support, light tankovy, heavy tankovy) it will reduce the conscript reinforcement by 2MP. So conscripts begin with a 16MP reinforce which will scale down to possibly 10-8 in lategame.
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The conscript vet removal was not a balance change. We had nothing to do with it. It was a design decision by the devs.
Wonder what made the Devs delete vetting for one unit other than balance. I know that consis are buggy but full rifles and unsuppressability always worked for me (Recrewing doesnt work when gaining it by vet, i know)
Is it possible to link lower reinforcment costs to vet?
vet1: lower reinforcment costs
vet2: full rifles
vet3: unsepressable (timed ability)
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Yes, it's possible.
But as looks like conscript vet bonii won't return...
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Killar, its normal that some units turn obsolete as the game go on. You can see wher: Volks is useless in mid/end game, except to recrew.
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Killar, its normal that some units turn obsolete as the game go on. You can see wher: Volks is useless in mid/end game, except to recrew.
No its not. Vet3 Volks are still powerful in lategame. And conscripts are not the same as Volks
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any wehr infantry is a potential powerhouse late game, med bunkers? ;)
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Killar, its normal that some units turn obsolete as the game go on. You can see wher: Volks is useless in mid/end game, except to recrew.
No its not. Vet3 Volks are still powerful in lategame. And conscripts are not the same as Volks
The problem is, Conscripts were designed in that way, to be obsolete after mid game.
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I don't wanna badmouth the devs, even though I thoroughly disagree with that change. Maybe we should lock this thread.