Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: RedGuard on May 28, 2011, 06:26:30 AM
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Ok so I hope everyone knows the new changes to strelky in general and more importantly RBS and their various weapon upgrades.
What does everyone think of the new 1.4 strelky? Do you even bother with PPSH anymore since its more expensive? Do you like the new DP-28's and their new ability?
I thought the RBS change would be the most controversial of the patch, I wont hide I was adamantly opposed to it.
Personally I dont even bother with the RBS upgrade anymore its been completely removed from my strategy, just too expensive at 100muni AND 70 fuel now. Whats your views comrades?
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I think RBS upgrade should definately be cheaper so they are easier to obtain and come earlier, at a time when Soviets desperately need improved troops, but the weapons themselves need a minor nerf still. This would also apply to the Sturm Ingies, which are really still abusive right now.
Hence, the upgrade is too expensive early game, and a tad too strong late game, mostly because of the veterancy Soviets get.
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Never liked RBS - ppsh are shit, 'cause the troopers are so low-health, and now it's expensive, and the upgrade is expensive too...
DP is better though, but the upgrade cost...
Overall: forget it! I'm not using them any more, that's for sure.
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The only way to beat it is to spam Guards or Veteran Guards - those totally OP guys are cheap as chips and fucking awesome :o
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Never liked RBS - ppsh are shit, 'cause the troopers are so low-health, and now it's expensive, and the upgrade is expensive too...
DP is better though, but the upgrade cost...
Overall: forget it! I'm not using them any more, that's for sure.
ppsh being upped to 75 kinda made them a non factor anymore, dp28 synergizes a lot better. last game I went strelky I lost, Ill stick to my new strat
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I never used RBS strelky since 1.00000.
PPSH were OP, now they seem fine, but are costly, which is necessary. But all in all strelky are clearly outmatched by conscript/guards.
And anyway, it's so stupid when 2 or 3 retarded guys point a red flag to the ennemy...
No coolness factor, limited use compared to other soviet infantry... ;D
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RBS are cool infantry, but since 1.4 they get... well, costly. Their upgrading in armoury cost is way too high, while upgrading better Guards is far cheaper. I personally build one squad of basic strelky at the beginning, then I just skip to Guards and Veteran Guards. They perform better ( nades, nades, nades xD ) and have this crayze DP-28 run&shoot. After Vet.1 MG42 isn't a trouble anymore... Strelky can't do this.
I guess the overall point of Strelky/Guards was to make Strelky main line infantry, while Guards are those 'bad guys' who everyone is feared of. And we have exactly opposite situation. I think GodlikeDennis has replay where me, him, Killar and other guys are playing. Since half of a game I just were using Guards, never bothered using RBS - too expenisve, too much teching ( 100 mun + next 75 for nerfed PPShs), too low health and overall they don't perform as they should.
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I'll be interested in the results of this poll.
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Personally, I don't.
I the games that I played yesterday I see only Guards and Naval Infantry spams (with TH).
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Now that Guards get DP-28 with the upgrade (only 25 fuel as I remember) Id rather have them (and a medic truck) than RBS.
Also 175ammo is too much for first PPSh squad, Id rather upgrade my Command Squad and get Molotovs.
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RBS is way too pricey compared to Shock Guards. And I don't want to see much more expensive Shock Guards. I guess the upgrade could take a fuel increase, but the RBS upgrade needs a serious reduction to be even halfway there worth it.
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so, 19-4 just as I suspected. thank you all for sharing your opinions and letting the team know that the RBS price increase is too expensive!
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Poll is biased.
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price is biased :P
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bias? perhaps there is someone who really use those upgrade, but honestly I have never saw one..
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Poll is biased.
price is biased :P
Oh for fucks sake will you two stop arguing and come to an agreement? >:(
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Poll is biased.
price is biased :P
Oh for fucks sake will you two stop arguing and come to an agreement? >:(
Are they arguing?
I don't use red banner strelky. I figured its way easier just to tech Shockys for a way more better infantry and earlier tanks.
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I don't use red banner strelky. I figured its way easier just to tech Shockys for a way more better infantry and earlier tanks.
RBS is my lowest priorty upgrade. I use it only to equip strelky with DPs for rear area defense of my outposts. I seldom employ Strelky at all in the role of line infantry. Why bother? The Shoot on the Scoot DPs the SG and NI obtain are so potentially useful Strelky are obsolete. Perhaps someone got confused and switched the upgrade costs for RBS and SGs?
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Guys, its about the same price as BARs. After the research Strelky can access the most powerful weapons package in the game, and also there might be a reenforce cost reduction as well. Just trust Dennis on this one.
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well, I wouldn't call this 'the most powerful package' - either ppshs or DP-28 upgrade isn't making RBS even 50% as effective as NI or Veteran Guards. Not to mention that Guards get DP-28 with possibility to shoot during movement, and 4 SVT-40. They also have granates, which RBS lack of. Oh, and after Vet.1 they are totally unsupressible. Tell me, does any faction have so powerful unit like Veteran Guards? The prices of RBS and Veteran Guards in Armoury should be switched, IMHO.
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its not the most powerful weapons package in the game, axis mp44 are they get the best stats and mods against elite armor - also BARS equip troops that get mahy other global upgrades and the best vet in the game
strelky have none of that, and they also have no AT ability like riflemen who get bars do. so theyre not versatile global best vet in the game troops. thats why its over priced
how come you dont realise this? dont ever compare strelky to riflemen plz, they're far from comparable. riflemen come from the start, have better vet, have better global upgrades, have target versatility both AI and AT ability, are cheaper and more survivable
strelky do none of that, thats why its overpriced - its sad really
spen 100 muni and 70 fuel just so you can buy weapons packages which cost another arm and a leg - and then your teching ability is ruined unless you were winning by a landslide. not balanced what so ever lol
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Granted the RBS and SG upgrade costs are inappropriate. Granted the cost for squad weapons/unit is lower than comparable costs for other factions. Granted that standard and upgraded Sov infantry squad sizes are larger than their opponents. - these are to some degree or another acceptable or fixible. The underlying problem is that the Strelky was designed with no anti-vehicle response. Add the option of a heavy weapons package or a PTRD or KRAK upgrade and most of the gripes will go away. We have experts to balance it.
I don't use red banner strelky. I figured its way easier just to tech Shockys for a way more better infantry and earlier tanks.
+1
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I'm gonna sound a bit like an elitist with this next statement here, but that is not my intent.
Here is a quote from DaRealRocky:
"A noob is a noob and doesn't understand the full potential of game mechanics and therefore can not talk about balance properly. Of course they are allowed to and give their opinion, it's just that their opinion isn't going to be worth much. Luckily enough balancing a game is not a thing of fair democracy. But a thing of knowledge and expertise."
So, it really doesn't matter if the vote is 19-4.
I'm wondering if any of you guys actually play at a competitive level. When you guys start playing at higher levels, you'll see what I mean. The RBS is fine, really. I've used it and won with it, and all it does is make you choose. It's kind of like how USA has to choose between BARs, M8, or WSC for a while. Its the same thing here or with any other faction, you need to choose. If its too cheap, USSR will be able to get the weapons packages plus support teams or T90 too quickly.
I'm just gonna end with that. Its too hard to explain why why why to everyone who just doesn't play on the higher levels of play (which there's nothing wrong with, please don't misunderstand me here).
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Oh another thing as well, Polls are very unreliable because the only people that vote in them are those interested in the topic :).
On second note, wouldn't replays be a better argument than mere speculation? Bad micro skills means no amount of upgrades can do jack for you. :)
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The problem is that even if the upgrade is at the correct price, players usually skip it and go for guards/shock guards because they have best value.
@Yauz
If its too cheap, USSR will be able to get the weapons packages plus support teams or T90 too quickly.
I should admit I won't expected that, there's really a thin line here. I agree that the cost is too high but only makes everyone and their dogs use guards/shock guards strats.
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I'm gonna sound a bit like an elitist with this next statement here, but that is not my intent.
Here is a quote from DaRealRocky:
"A noob is a noob and doesn't understand the full potential of game mechanics and therefore can not talk about balance properly. Of course they are allowed to and give their opinion, it's just that their opinion isn't going to be worth much. Luckily enough balancing a game is not a thing of fair democracy. But a thing of knowledge and expertise."
So, it really doesn't matter if the vote is 19-4.
I'm wondering if any of you guys actually play at a competitive level. When you guys start playing at higher levels, you'll see what I mean. The RBS is fine, really. I've used it and won with it, and all it does is make you choose. It's kind of like how USA has to choose between BARs, M8, or WSC for a while. Its the same thing here or with any other faction, you need to choose. If its too cheap, USSR will be able to get the weapons packages plus support teams or T90 too quickly.
I'm just gonna end with that. Its too hard to explain why why why to everyone who just doesn't play on the higher levels of play (which there's nothing wrong with, please don't misunderstand me here).
Yeah well my ladder rank speaks for itself which was at lvl 14 solo auto when I stopped doing auto every day, the latest patch and ladder reset we're all back at lvl 10 but still kept my good number rank even after the reset. so my credentials are intact if they're ever in question im not a top 25 player but I can compete at a very high level, so I can speak for everyone else that doesnt have a voice or maybe opinion would be ignored if they didnt have someone whos known supporting them
and I agree with rocky too yauz, hes one of the few experts I enjoy reading his rants - but you cant discredit this poll the people have spoken and they demand change!
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Polls are very unreliable because the only people that vote in them are those interested in the topic :).
This is very true. Also, the poll should be set up differently.
Rate 1-7 how much you agree with the following statement:
Regardless of whether you personally use something better, you find the Red Banner Strelky upgrade to be worth the purchase cost.
7- I very strongly agree
6- I strongly agree
5- I somewhat agree
4- I do not agree or disagree
3- I somewhat disagree
2- I strongly disagree
1- I very strongly disagree
And if you haven't used it much don't vote. This would be a more accurate poll. Either way, polls are inherently bad for judging things because there is always a sampling bias and something usually wrong with the question or options.
I don't use red banner strelky. I figured its way easier just to tech Shockys for a way more better infantry and earlier tanks.
This pretty much sums what I guessed the community thought of RBS. It's an excellent upgrade but there are currently better/more OP options available. It is not overpriced but rather everything else is just too good. This will not be true in the next patch where we have done more balancing and fine tuning than ever before.
To anyone who doubts that they're the best weapon packages in the game, have a check of the stats of DP-28 compared to Bren or PPSh compared to MP44/MP40. You'll find that the DP-28 is 62.5% better than the Bren and the PPSh is pretty much a more inaccurate version of the MP40 but you get 6-7 of them. MP44s are only good because their damage isn't mitigated by armour and they're excellent on the move. MP40s and PPShs actually outdamage them when stationary, especially against infantry armour targets.
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Off topic, but Red what faction were you level 14 1v1 auto? In your profile there's no auto ranking. We should play 1v1 vCoH some time. What's the name of your ranked profile? It should already be level 10 1v1 automatch ranked?
Franky son, judging from the way you played in our last 1v1, I don't believe you are level 14 1v1 auto.
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Off topic, but Red what faction were you level 14 1v1 auto? In your profile there's no auto ranking. We should play 1v1 vCoH some time. What's the name of your ranked profile? It should already be level 10 1v1 automatch ranked?
Franky son, judging from the way you played in our last 1v1, I don't believe you are level 14 1v1 auto.
haha I was waiting for someone to attack my ladder rank, rather predictable :) :P
>>how can you criticise my play when your strategy going into the game was to blob and abuse/exploit as many things as possible? :-X :o
I certainly do not play like that, as you already know - but I guess you gotta do whats necessary to get the win
also, not to mention you were attacking me personally and trash talking me incessantly the very first time we met and in game, that was potentially a shoutcast game. which is not a very professional thing to do nor is it a sign of a skilled player. I'm sorry you felt the need to act so immaturely
we only played one game, so the both of us could only get a basic understanding of each others true skill levels - I've beaten the invincible dennis more than once but he'll probably say only because certain things in the past were OP like the su85 and strelky >:( and that hes leading on the total win count which he is. but that should give me credability which cannot be discredited if nothing else
thats because my EF account is different, all my EF accounts are Red... something. my last vcoh account was chris0316 - plz feel free to check it out, I am an honest player. would you be willing to share yours as well? its only fair to question someones character and skill level if yours will be open to scrutiny as well
I am an american player, and a PE player(sometimes) - I dont play brits or wehr because they're broken 8)
and quite frankly, I believe Im still ranked higher than you even though I have not played a ladder match on that profile in months - correct me if I'm wrong
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Lets play vCoH when you have time then. Keep it simple, I challenge you, and it is because I think you are lying about your 14. There is absolutely no need to talk with your excuses, I see through them. I'll add your Chris account. Seems you are level 10 USA, with 73 wins 41 loss lol.
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right on, as classless as usual - I'll be looking for you add me
you dont care to post your account name, as I have, to validate yourself? Or shall you cower behind anonymity?
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Son, my account name is SublimeYauz, level 12 1v1 automatch position 122 Wehr. Cry all you want about me or how Wehr is broken, etc, but that is what it is. I have already added you. No more talking, lets play.
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and what excuses are these that you speak of? im in coh mods channel get some, "son"
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You are offline when I PM your Chris0316.
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This is why Relic needs to add observer mode to their games.
Wehr is broken? Someone alert Relic!??! :P
To be fair, you did beat me because strelky were OP. 10% global CS bonus, 40FU RBS and the, then recent, DP-28 buff combined. Now we find ourselves in this thread and things have come full circle.
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lol owned in vCoH as I expected. Level 14 1v1 automatch my ass. People's balancer my ass. Lying noob, yes. Big talker, yes. Fit to talk about balance, hell no.
Go on, talk more Red, that's all you are good for. Talk, talk and more talk.
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@yauz haha! noob ;D you barely beat me and had to abuse wehr to do it - good job! :thumbs up:
i held map control rather easily for all but the last minutes of the game. until your rather gay abuse finally ground me down, in 2.602 theres nothing ami can do to beat that strat.
I believe your the talker, yauz -not me
This is why Relic needs to add observer mode to their games.
+1
Wehr is broken? Someone alert Relic!??! :P
the same ppl that balanced this game supposedly(gamereplays), agree with that statement *shrug*
To be fair, you did beat me because strelky were OP. 10% global CS bonus, 40FU RBS and the, then recent, DP-28 buff combined. Now we find ourselves in this thread and things have come full circle.
I dont mind playing with u denniss ur a classy guy, in victory and defeat - this yauz character is just garbage though, sorry yauz son
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I hate to intervene as this is going to turn on me...
OI, YOU TWO. YEA, YOU. This is a thread about RBS, not who can beat who in a god damn automatch.
Take your god damn flame war into another thread. This was a civilized discussion until you guys brought the "Well I'm better" "lol no noob" argument.
We don't want to fucking hear it. Handle it on your own time.
I apologize if I offend either of you but this isn't a brag thread, this is a balance discussion on how to potentially rework the RBS. I know you are both powerful players, however that doesn't mean you need to express it by challenging others and calling each other down in a BALANCE thread.
At this point I'm recommending this thread for closing the following:
- Off Topic
- Poll has been said and done
- Flame War breaking out
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I hate to intervene as this is going to turn on me...
OI, YOU TWO. YEA, YOU. This is a thread about RBS, not who can beat who in a god damn automatch.
Take your god damn flame war into another thread. This was a civilized discussion until you guys brought the "Well I'm better" "lol no noob" argument.
We don't want to fucking hear it. Handle it on your own time.
I apologize if I offend either of you but this isn't a brag thread, this is a balance discussion on how to potentially rework the RBS. I know you are both powerful players, however that doesn't mean you need to express it by challenging others and calling each other down in a BALANCE thread.
At this point I'm recommending this thread for closing the following:
- Off Topic
- Poll has been said and done
- Flame War breaking out
+1 I was actually thinking about saying the same although less politely.
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Was a good replay though.
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Was a good replay though.
Except dirty comment from players ! :P
I never had to support that, but well it was long ago, players change I suppose - and behaviour too.
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This topic became crazy, Strelky changes are been discussed internally and this topic has come to an end. RedGuard and Yauz, you should try to get along with each other or at lest discuss in a civil way, without disacreding each other in the process, I don't think we need to reach these levels.
So I'll lock this now.