Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Suggestions => Topic started by: Walentin 'Walki' L. on June 24, 2011, 03:55:31 PM
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Here is a suggestion which I posted on a other thread a couple of days ago it's called Tiger Hunt.
Every wehr player spawns with one Tiger but only one gets the tiger ace. Every players tiger has unique abilities for example one can use Tank Assault, the other one can call in artillery. Also one should be able to call in light infantry support or recon/air strikes. The Tiger Ace should be able to have a Overkill ability: It shoots faster and deals more damage but after the ability has run out he will get slower for 10 seconds.
The allies have a fuel upgraded HQ sector so they can choose their strategy on their own. The map should be big so that the allies spawn around the axis also the axis shouldn't be able to enter the "safezone" of a allied player (maybe place mines?)
There should be a victory points counter. The allies lose points every 10 seconds (maybe 25 points) but they gain points if they manage to destroy a Tiger tank (200 points) (not tiger ace).
If tiger ace has been destroy the axis lose the game (even if there are still tigers on the field).
Maybe there should be a level up system too.
I think it wouldn't be that hard to make because there are already a lot of icons from the Tiger ace campaign. I would personally make the map if possible :P.
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hmm sounds like Panzerkrieg from ToV
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Not really, only one group gets Tanks, the other gets all types of units ;D
Seems fun, I would love to play something like this, and there are tons of Tiger skins so its easier to differentiate from each tank, but would they have randomized abilities or would each skin get a stock set of abilities each game?
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That sounds fun! :D
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@walki1- you have my sword ;D
what about an huge and powerful arty which secures he HQ sectors? Or hidden Heavy AT guns?
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1 Player has gotta be a Bergetiger! ;D It can repair the other Tigers, and can call in the most support, but is near useless in combat. Maybe has self-repair.
Who should be the Allies, though? The Westerners, or the Soviets? Or both?
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Na i think each Tiger should have self-repair, so they won't have to rely on an easily destroyed piece of crap. Maybe though we can get Tank variants. Maybe one gets the Ace, another gets KT, somebody gets Schultz's Tiger, and somebody gets the regular Wehr Tiger. Could be nice, but since we have so many different Tiger skins, I don't think that would even be necessary.
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EASILY DESTROYED PIECE OF CRAP?!?!! It's a fucking TIGER, man! Have you never tried to bring 1 of those down before!? :o ::)
I really think it's important to use all Tiger variations available. Maybe include the Königstiger, but i'm not sure... :-\
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If you don't understand why i said easily destroyed piece of crap, I was referring to the Bergetiger, not regular Tiger, because your post before the one you shouted at me, mentioned at least one guy with the Bergetiger, which to me was a giant green light to scream at it
Bro, I always use Beregetigers with PE (my most often used faction for your info), and they lack HP and armor. I once tried to use them to repair a bridge on Vire and it was 3 shotted by a 57mm to the frontal armor. I thought, geez, its a Tiger ain't it, should be able to stand up to some punishment as it reps the bridge, but boom and no it just blew up.
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Well, it must have received some major nerf in some stupid patch, because in my experience, it's pretty much exactly the same strength as a regular Tiger... If they made it to get destroyed by 3 A-T Gun shots to the front armor, even with Armor Piercing, that's just fucking pathetic...
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Bro, I always use Beregetigers with PE (my most often used faction for your info), and they lack HP and armor. I once tried to use them to repair a bridge on Vire and it was 3 shotted by a 57mm to the frontal armor. I thought, geez, its a Tiger ain't it, should be able to stand up to some punishment as it reps the bridge, but boom and no it just blew up.
Serves you right for repairing under fire. :P
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Bro, I always use Beregetigers with PE (my most often used faction for your info), and they lack HP and armor. I once tried to use them to repair a bridge on Vire and it was 3 shotted by a 57mm to the frontal armor. I thought, geez, its a Tiger ain't it, should be able to stand up to some punishment as it reps the bridge, but boom and no it just blew up.
Serves you right for repairing under fire. :P
Exactly.
Plus 57mm's have AP rounds.
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Nope - Bergetigers don't seem to take any more damage when repairing/recovering from what i've seen. I wish they would, though...
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You need to think about this: If 4 tigers support each other... that's hard :P. If a tiger gets destroyed the player gets an ability to call in a bergetiger & maybe the same reinforcments group like the generic Wehr gets. The other Tigers need to support it if he wants his tiger back :D. I mean noone would just give you another tiger for free.
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I don't think a "Player Revive" aspect can happen like that. Maybe the dead player recieves a call in berge for his tiger?
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No, players shouldn't be revivable. Once you're dead, you stay dead.
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Bro, I always use Beregetigers with PE (my most often used faction for your info), and they lack HP and armor. I once tried to use them to repair a bridge on Vire and it was 3 shotted by a 57mm to the frontal armor. I thought, geez, its a Tiger ain't it, should be able to stand up to some punishment as it reps the bridge, but boom and no it just blew up.
Serves you right for repairing under fire. :P
Exactly.
Plus 57mm's have AP rounds.
Gotta go with pariah on this one, I don't believe they take anymore damage if they are repairing, then if they are just stationary.
And please do tell how else am I supposed to fix a bridge guarded by my opponent with AT guns, MGs and bloody arty (note. I don't really play bridge maps to often anymore, because they are balanced totally in favor of the Allies, no matter where you start, they always use arty doctrines and snubb the arty less Axis into the ground)
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Use your Hotchkiss and/or Mortar Halftrack to bomb them first, then start repairing. And you could always go doctrinal Hummel. A Flak36 could help too, with its extreme range.
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Well, what if they bomb your base into crap with their endless arty barrages leaving you with only an HQ and 1 building that can only produce Stubbys, ATHTs, and Bergetigers. Plus they Hummel is kinda useless against all that arty spam, and the Flak more-so.
Anyway gotta get back on topic
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...Any questions/suggestions?
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No, players shouldn't be revivable. Once you're dead, you stay dead.
That's the point. That would get boring for players who got killed... they would just drop... we need to find something here...
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No, players shouldn't be revivable. Once you're dead, you stay dead.
That's the point. That would get boring for players who got killed... they would just drop... we need to find something here...
Respawn time or like in Left for Dead, when you reach a point and you lost a survivor it can be respawned :P.
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I figured it should be a last stand scenario. The Axis with their strong Tigers are holding off the never-ending wave of Allies. A Tiger can take out many Shermans, so the Allies will have to do their best to micro and flank, whilst the Axis have to try to prevent it. Allied players should get access to unlimited units, gradually getting more and better units over time. The Axis simply have to hold them off for as long as possible.
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So eh? No why here is no comment of Rizz? Is it possible?
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What about making it in this way:
1. Players select their heavy tanks: like Panther, Tiger, Tiger II or ... Maus? Each tank has it's advanteges, but also suffers some disadventages ( KT is powerful, but really slow).
2. Enemies ( Allies or Soviets in this case) don't have base - they are calling-in units from out of map. They should have possibility to call a lot of infantry and tanks. No arty or AT guns.
3. Panzers must defend themselves from enemies or map - they should have disabled 'heavy crush' , so they can use hedges for their own. They also should have 2-3 'special points' to hold on - like garage ( allows tanks to self-repair'), Spotting Tower ( allows them to use rechargable 'recon flights' over an area), or munitions dump ( allows them to call arty or something else). Those points should be scattered around the map, so players should decide: to split their forces and claim as many points as they can, or stick together.
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Eh, i figured it should only be Tigers...
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Well the KT is still a Tiger, its just the King. I was thinking we should in fact get choice of Tiger, KT, Jagdtiger, 1 Ace Tiger.
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I don't recall a Jagdtiger being in the game...
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@Pariah, it was in EF, it was a replacement for the KT if I'm not mistaken.
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@Pariah, it was in EF, it was a replacement for the KT if I'm not mistaken.
That
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Well, i never saw it in the rewards list. It must have been patched in or something. Anyway, yeah, we could probably use it in this game type, if you think it would fit.
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@Pariah, it was in EF, it was a replacement for the KT if I'm not mistaken.
Yes, it was a reward unit, don't you remember that a even a poll was started to try to convince the Devs to let the Jagdtiger stay in ???.
Jagdtiger was a reward unit for the King Tiger until the last patch, 1.40.
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I remember a poll about keeping a unit a long time ago. If that was it, then that's sad. Would it be possible to resurrect it for this game type, if you decide to even make this game type?
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First of all, this is a very cool idea. Pretty MMOish, so you have a range of Tigers based on the role you want to have. I like the idea of including the bergetiger player as the healbot type guy. So you have like, 1 ace, 3 other tigers (Tiger I, KT, Jagdtiger, berge) vs 4 normal allied players.
The berge has the same health/armour as a Tiger. It takes triple damage while repairing or recovering.
Bridge maps are actually axis favoured. Axis has a better endgame with powerful tanks and vet, and they have better arty. Stukas are good against all target types, and are much better against bridges than allied arty. Axis also get goliaths which are an instant kill to any bridges they are on. Flaks are very deadly on bridge maps as well.
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Putting someone inside the "role" of the bergetiger is stupid it has no gun execpt the hull mg.
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Tell that to all the people who play priests or healers in MMOs. The healing role is very important in team things like this. I'm sure some people would get their kicks from it. Plus, it's not like you'd have to choose berge if you didn't want to. You have a choice between Tiger I, KT, Jagdtiger or berge) unless you are the ace player.
The roles would be anti-infantry DPS (Tiger), anti-tank/long range DPS (Jagdtiger), tank (KT) or healer (berge). Ace is an all round player who is good against infantry and tanks, has loads of health, and could possibly have a self-heal ability. The game is lost if he dies.
This gametype does sound pretty fun to be honest. Much better than the operations already in the game. It's pretty similar to Panzerkrieg but much cooler. If you were limited to 3 tank choices like Panzerkrieg you would have to get rid of Jagdtiger or KT since they have pretty similar stats/roles.
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whos the tiger hunter, IS-3? ;D
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whos the tiger hunter, IS-3? ;D
No, would be too easy :P
Sound a fun game though! 8)
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Maybe the bergetiger should also be a kinda building unit which can place mines & goliaths and also it should be able to use defensive shotgun rounds like in the Tiger Ace campagin.
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...What "defensive shotgun rounds"? ???
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The things in the side of the tank, or is that smoke?
I would love this to be implanted. Shermans and Firefly swarming tigers ;D
But this will mean changing Vanilla stats tremendously, sorta like BKs ones.
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You mean the S-Mines, for clearing infantry?
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But this will mean changing Vanilla stats tremendously, sorta like BKs ones.
Unit stats of TOVs Ops are also heavily altered.
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I think the Ace should get S-Mines cause he needs all the protection he can get. Though it shouldn't be exclusive, others should get it as the battle rages
Maybe with each doctrinal point you have, the Tiger you use unlocks a new ability and on the first doctrinal point you can change your tank. So, for example you start with a Tiger it has Smoke Launchers and Light Infantry Call-in. You kill and stay alive for 4 or 5 mins of game time and you get access to your choice of upgrade trees, Defensive, Blitzkreig, or Terror. Depending on which one you choose, your tank either stays a Tiger (Blitzkreig), becomes a KT (Terror) or becomes a JagdTiger (Defense obviously). Each tree then splits into the usual 2 branches at first, but as you gain Doctrinal points you unlock more branches. The choice of Doctrine doesn't necessarily dictate your playing style because, F.E. the Defensive tree can have a Counter-Attack Branch, in the same way Blitz can have a Stealth Operations, or Terror can have Assualt branch. Anyone like this as the system of playing for the Tiger team?
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Changing tanks? How would that work? Your Tiger magically becomes a Jagdtiger? Um, no...
Call-ins won't work, either; You will be surrounded in the middle of the map, after all.
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No I think the game mechanics would be similar to Panzerkrieg. One player starts the game automatically as the ace and has the full Tiger Ace upgrade trees from the campaign to play with as he unlocks CPs. The other 3 players do not spawn until they choose their "doctrine" which will be their tank tree like Panzerkrieg. For instance: Player 2, 3 and 4 start the game. The doctrine choice is automatically brought up. They can choose between Tiger 1, Jagdtiger and Bergetiger. Once their "doctrine" is chosen, their tank will automatically spawn. As they gain CPs, they can choose to unlock powers from their doctrine in the normal manner.
Some ideas for the trees.
Bergetiger - Healer/support
Infantry support - MP44 PG squad with all upgrades? Grants self-repair
S-Mine launcher - same as ToV campaign Removes repair penalty/increases repair rate
Mine/goliath laying Gains overrepair capability
Tiger 1 - Anti-infantry DPS/speedy harassment
Speed boost Smoke launcher ability
Tank shock - like churchill Range boost
Rapid fire ability Long range shot ability
Jagdtiger - Anti-tank DPS/Tank
Site main gun ability Health boost
Damage boost Ability that slows and makes the jagd more resistant to damage
Treadbreaker Stun shot
While player 1 automatically spawns as the ace and gets:
Power shot Panzer group zeal or heroic charge type ability
HE shells Firestorm
Fast reload boost Henschel run
So is either a mega tank or a command tank depending on your tree. If that's not enough he can just have access to the entire ToV ace upgrade tree since it's already been done up for us :D.
How should victory be determined? Maybe the Tigers should have to hunt AI controlled Allied supply trucks as they pass through the map. Each one reduces the allies VP score by 1? The allies win automatically if the ace is destroyed? There's also random buildings around the map the Tigers can capture like repair bay, radio tower (for recon runs), mortar bunkers etc.
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That sounds too similar to Panzerkrieg to me. Granted, i haven't played it that much because relic were too fucking lazy to include A.I. players...
I think it should be like a cross between Panzerkrieg and Stonewall. You know, the Axis tanks are in the middle fighting off endless waves of Allied tanks.
What tank you use should be decided before the game, in the same manner as choosing your army.
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That's not much of a hunt though...
It'd be more fun if the allies are humans too rather than AI controlled tank waves.
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That's the idea - With 8 players, 4 are Tiger variants in the middle, and 4 are Allied players deploying waves of tanks from off-map, gradually getting access to more and stronger tanks.
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I prefer my supply truck idea personally. It's a bit closer to the real war I guess than some last stand some Tigers make in a village. To be honest, your mode sounds exactly like stonewall whereas mine is a cross between a standard game (with the allies building things normally) and Panzerkrieg (with axis having hero tanks). Personally, my idea sounds a little more tactical and team based than yours. To each their own though. Operations aren't exactly known for being the pinnacle of strategic planning.
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I don't think base building would work, because the Tigers could just run in there and destroy everything. And if you make the buildings indestructible, they can just wait and tear apart Shermans as they exit.
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To be honest, your mode sounds exactly like stonewall whereas mine is a cross between a standard game (with the allies building things normally) and Panzerkrieg (with axis having hero tanks).
+1
I'd also recommend the Allies to build up bases like in standart games. Make them unaccessable for the Tigers to prevent an early base rush (4 Tigers vs 1 Engi squad :-\). Could be something like Panther turrets, only for Americans (maybe also mines which reduce the Tigers health by the half when triggered).
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Yeah just put a minefield there that has insane damage modifiers vs Tiger armour and does no damage to anything else. Plus a few Pantherturms can't hurt. If you're worried about base camping, just design the map so the supply convoy doesn't go near the Allied bases. Axis will be forced to split up the Tigers so you will take out the base camping ones easily.
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Allies having Pantherturms doesn't sound right. They could be captured, though.
This to me sounds like a standard game on the American side. Not very interesting...
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You have another target than in normal games, this IS something unique. Plus the Brit, if playable, has also its advantages. There would be problems when setting up your mobile HQ in an unprotected sector, though.
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each tank should have it's own 'comander tree'.
+1 for idea of diversity, but sincerely, I don't see Jagdtiger there.
Oh, I think allies shouldn't have heavy AT weapons, like fireflys or AT guns.
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The same standard buildings and tech trees is far from unique, even if it's just on 1 side. This mode should have no bases.
And the Allies should definitely have their anti-tank tanks, but they should obviously be much rarer than the standard Shermans.
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I'd also say Bergetiger should be a time-limited callin ability for the Tiger ace player, he can call in the Berge, is able to control it, but after a certain amount of time it is overtaken by an AI player and driven to a map exit point and vanishes again.
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No, i like the idea of someone in a purely support role. Although, it would probably be good to have A.I. allies for the Axis, if possible...
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Fine, give the allies all their units from their HQs. Let them build riflemen, rangers, AT guns, M8s/T17s, HTs, Shermans and M10s
OR
Bren tommies, bren carriers, PIAT commandos, PIAT sappers, stuarts, cromwells, cromwell command tanks, comets, fireflies, Lt and Cpt.
Disable the construction of mines and emplacements.
Later you can add in an EF themed map where the Russians can build THs, AT guns, Guards, Naval infantry, T70s, T34s, and SU85s.
Give the allies loads of resources at the start, enough to protect the supplies decently. Make each supply truck that gets through give you resources.
The problem here is that the allies don't need to tech anywhere, so they may as well just mass produce fireflies unless you make them really expensive in this mode. Also, what would the doctrines bring?
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It could be quite boring for the Bergetiger player because he only has the task of repairing. How is he supposed to get cp rewards if he can't kill anything?
I'd set it up like this:
Tiger Ace
Jagdpanther
Panther
(Brummbär)
@Dennis: Nice ideas
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...When did the idea of supply trucks come in? ???
And if this is going to be set on the Western front, the allies should get access to both American and British units. Or, you could totally mix it up, and throw the Soviets in there too.
As i said before, the Bergetiger player should get access to the most abilities. That is the support role, after all. It could call in Henschels and such.
The Allies should get free tanks.
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Berge player can call in PG squads. He can also get mines, goliaths and S-Mines. Or he could just crush enemies :D. You make a good point though. Maybe make the CPs gain passively thoughout the game, rather than based off kills. It wouldn't be a Tiger hunt if there were panthers in there would it? :P
Maybe instead of Jagdtigers, have the Jagdpanther as the AT/tanking role. I like having the berge in there though. Promotes the team aspect. Lots of people like playing the healer.
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What use would Command Points be?
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I described some command tree ideas earlier.
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Give the berge an effective MG, just like Axis vet2 ones, but crushing might also work :P
Agreed with Panthers, but what do you think about the Brummbär thing (when Ostheer is released), it could do the heavy support role. I'd also think about a player controlling two Panzer IIIs because together with one Tiger they formed a Tigerzug in 1942 or so.
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I don't think Company Commanders are necessary. Although it can't hurt to look into including them, if they would fit.
I think A.I. controlling some lesser tanks would be cool. Just for some support. Machine guns, however, would be unnecessary. This is a tanks vs tanks game, after all.
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Why? Rangers, Recoilless Rifle Airbornes, ATGs, Piats and on and on can do the same thing and that's what variation means.
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Well i was thinking this was going to be a tank game, but if you want i guess it can't hurt to have SOME infantry...
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One word:
STURMTIGER
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Is that in Eastern Front?
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One word:
STURMTIGER
Also thought about it when I wrote down Brummbär, but then I realized there was a clear NO from the devs towards its inclusion in EF.
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Don't misunderstand us ;D... we are not going to include such units to EF meaning that they won't be for normal gameplay, but that doesn't exclude them to be on a different game type.
As long as we have a model :P.
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Maybe, if you beg very politely, HGN mod will give you their Sturmtiger :P
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So there's a chance, blackbishop, that you could bring the Jagdtiger back for this game type? The larger the Tiger variety available, the better!
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I just googled HGM and Sturmtiger and found this:
http://hq-coh.com/forum/index.php?topic=18081.30 (http://hq-coh.com/forum/index.php?topic=18081.30)
There it says that they use Halftrack's model from Battle of the Bulge.
And yes, i'm sure if Rizz wants it EF could feature a new game thingy about german super tanks against allies super tanks... putting aside we don't have too models to use.
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Cool. Thanks, blackbishop. Also, because it's worth stating before someone suggests it: NO MAUS! ;D
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The idea with the supply trucks is quiet nice. The problem the operation should be called: Tiger Hunt not Supply Truck Hunt xD.
I think the bergetiger should spawn with two 3 men sqauds PE grenadiers and enough ammo to upgrade them to STG, Gewehr 43 or Panzerschrek (vet 3 = 4 men squad).
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I think it would be best to keep any non-Tiger allies A.I.-controlled.
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there should be only axis tanks >:( no grenadiers at all.
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^^Yes.
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i realy like this idea
but i also think bergetiger is not so good.
for the player of the berge it would be to 95% a boring game
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Why wouldn't Tiger Hunt be suitable walki? The Tigers are both hunting and being hunted in this mode. Remember the allied aim is to kill off the ace.
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So I got another idea. Maybe the Axis need to defend a convoy which is driving across the map to a map exit point.
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Ehh, I don't like that idea, truthfully. Not much of a Tiger Hunt anymore and i don't trust the A.I. to drive a Convoy anyway. This could be a different game mode. Something like a "Tiger Hunt" for the allies, where we hunt the Shermans and one Pershing Ace
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I like the idea of a gametype involving a convoy, but i don't think it would fit here.
I was thinking maybe once a players tank has been destroyed, it could be possible for the Bergetiger to recover it, giving them another chance. So the Allies will have to make sure to destroy the corpse.
And the Bergetiger should be able to Overrepair, like the Sappers.
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I like all the ideas, but please, all resources to the Ostheer first :P
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But of course - This is just something to think about when the campaign is done. ;)
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About Bergetiger:
IIRC there were only a few real Berges in WWII but often normal Tigers were used for recovery, as it was much saver for the crew to sit in a Tiger than in a recovery-halftrack.
So what about a in-field-modification:
Every Tiger has an ability to become a Berge, (not magicaly changing the model, maybe just add Berges crane to the rear of tigers turret, maybe as a Gunupgrade like for Hotch and sherman) disableing the Maingun and making it very vulnerable, but being able to revive an Ally.
Modification takes ~15sec and u cant move while modifying and the same for demodifying, makeing u a normal Tiger again.
If Allies kill a Tiger they get their extra Victorypoints, no matter if it is recovered later or not.
This would make the tigerwrecks to highvalue strategic Tagets, as the Axis lose much of their strength if not recovering an ally, but they´re vulnerable to allied ambushes if the do.
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Please do be aware if you want ANY type of AI (eg. supply driving), that will remove 1 player from maximum available.
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Oh, i wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the heads up, mate.
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So only 3 Tigers! Tiger Ace, Jagdtiger and King Tiger
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No, any supporting units will simply have to be controlled by players. Besides, if any side is going to have less players, it will be the Allies; They have by far the most units at their disposal, after all.
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I agree. 3 full Allies vs 4 Tigers. Sounds fair enough. Just script the supply trucks to travel along some major roads. The Tigers have to eliminate these, while the Allies must aim to defend the convoys and hunt down the Tiger ace.
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Supply trucks in Tiger Hunt? No, i don't think so...
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Defend the caravan sounds good ;D. I would like to try it ;D.
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Me too, but not in Tiger Hunt. ;)
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I actually think that's a great combination, the Tiger Ace players have another target besides keeping the Ace alive, maybe destroying a supply truck could grant the Tiger players some additional ressources.
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1. Resources won't have any use.
2. ALL Tigers will have to survive, or the game will be lost.
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1. Ressources are needed to use abilities (I'm refering to Operation Panzerkrieg here).
2. If a mates HQ goes down, you still live, so it should work with the Tigers, except if the Ace is destroyed, then the game will be over.
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Well, i guess we could figure a way for abilities to cost resources, but i figured it would just be on a timer, since there will be no resource acquisition. Unless you maybe want to have a fixed income?
And the Ace should be no more 'valuable' than the others. ALL Tigers should have to be killed for the game to end.
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So let's take a map like King of the Hill (would fit perfect here).
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zNRbviXS084/SxOVj5GouOI/AAAAAAAAAAs/zojNDmB3EHY/s1600/relic00351.jpg)
You see the two mainroads? The convoy should annouce to the allied players which road it will take then 30 secs later the axis will get a hint were the convoy is.
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I'd say a 4 player version of Hedgerow Siege could be used, You have also a main road going across the map:
(http://60frame.gamechosun.co.kr/bbs/data/coh_map/Hedgerow_Siege_%286%29.jpg)
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Can't we discuss other gametypes in another topic? ;)
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It's still about Operation Tiger Hunt, we're just discussing the convoy thingy ;)
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Urgh, why is it so important to you to have a convoy in this mode?! ???
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Red Bull Express Single Player Map?
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Too small I think, not enough room for the Tigers to evade the Allies. I like the idea of hedgerow siege/king of the hill. The hedges will limit the allies mobility but not the tigers'. 2 roads with seperate convoys would be ideal. Otherwise it's a little too predictable where the Tigers will strike.
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Hee hee, King of the Hill...
Post Merge: June 27, 2011, 12:16:47 PM
Wait isnt that an 8p map? Oh well its a nice map to try this mode on :D
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King of the Hill seems ideal actually.
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I figured we'd make a new map for this gametype...
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Ah, and who should do that? You? :P
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I wouldn't mind; I do have some idea of what it should be like. Although i'd rather leave that task to the people who can actually use the WorldBuilder. ;)
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So Rizz tell us if you will make it! :D
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How about if the Bergetigers Repair ability is upgradable over time?
-Rudimentary Repair.
-Normal Repair.
-Expert Repair.
-Over-Repair.
-Recovery.
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That sounds like a nice idea, however, it's to decide yet if the Berge will be player- or AI-controlled.
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Nope - It's a very important role, plus it's a Tiger. If there are to be any A.I. players, they will use lesser units, such as the Panzer IV.
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Wtf happened to the original idea?! No AI units man, it should just be 4 Tigers VS allies. I like the KT, Jagdtiger, Tiger I and Tiger Ace roles.
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I want no A.I. players as well, but i'm just thinking of ways they may be included, to give the Axis some more units. Still not sure if it's a good idea or not, but i'm leaning against it...
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I think it gives the axis players more of a goal in the game. Otherwise they'd just be running away the whole time and it wouldn't be very fun.
I don't like including both KT and Jagdtiger since they fulfill basically the same role.
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I think it gives the axis players more of a goal in the game. Otherwise they'd just be running away the whole time and it wouldn't be very fun.
Nobody said that the convoy are only trucks :P. Some light vehicles will cover it.
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...Guys, why are we talking about convoys again? ???
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...Guys, why are we talking about convoys again? ???
Because Dennis is right if there are no bonus or alternative objectives other than just staying alive what incentive is there to do anything than just camp in a corner which imho would make a really boring gametype.
Perhaps the convoy comes on a timer, destruction of a single vehicle rewards that Tiger a small sum of munitions for their abilities (Same as TOV Tiger ace) and if the Tiger's are able to destroy all vehicles within that convoy they all earn a larger sum of muitions. (Perhaps Berge players receiving the most since they lack the weaponry to destroy vehicles)
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The Tigers are in the middle of the map, and the Allied tanks come from the edge of the map. So the Allies will have them surrounded. That's the whole idea of this gametype.
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To do that just have all four axis players in stonewall rush for Tigers... It's exactly what you are describing.
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As i've said before, it works similar to Stonewall and Panzerkrieg - You have the Axis in the middle with the advancing Allies (like Stonewall), but the combat is all tanks, with unique special abilities and such (like Panzerkrieg).
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I understand what you are saying but unfortunately that wont do, they'll just rush/camp.
I don't mind convoy idea. I think not only should the convoy give munitions but if it reaches its "final destination" i.e. reaches other side of map, there should be a penalty like a VPs system, if they destroy convoys then the allies lose VPs, if it survives, axis loses VPs.
lol, the convoy would have to be pretty slow since the trucks can outrun tigers in real life!!!
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^^+1 try to imagine the cheesiest most abusive things you could do, and this is what the game will eventually degenerate to. so measures should be taken to avoid this being possible and becoming routine.
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"Get back into the fight, we're down to 25 points!"
Post Merge: June 30, 2011, 08:20:16 AM
I would feel sorry for the allies, they'll be running around like headless chickens... then again, most players are like headless chickens so...
What do you guys think of a VP system?
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That's originally the point of my suggestion. Make axis reduce allied VPs by destroying the convoys. Make allies win automatically when they destroy the Tiger ace. That way, the Tigers are constantly attacking the convoys to slowly head towards victory while axis must try to be conservative and not risk themselves too much while doing it. Leads to an interesting dynamic where the Tigers are hunting the nearly helpless convoys while the allies hunt the Tigers. No point in the match should be boring since neither side can win without engaging the enemy.
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It's funny you bring up Victory Points, because i had this idea when i was in bed: What if there's a Victory Point in the middle of the map, similar to those 'King Of The Hill' missions in the campaign? The Axis will lose when the Point is taken, or when all their Tigers are destroyed. I figured that would be a good way to combat them hiding in the corner, as Dennis stated earlier. Is that a good idea?
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Hiding in the coner gives them a element of surprise!
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And cowardice. ;D
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SO Let's think of a final result!
(first) Map: King of the Hill
4 Tigers:
-Jagdtiger
-Tiger Ace
-King Tiger
-Bergetiger OR Tiger 205 EDIT (only for pariah) OR Sturmtiger
The commandtrees of Dennis are nice:
Bergetiger - Healer/support
Infantry support - MP44 PG squad with all upgrades? Grants self-repair
S-Mine launcher - same as ToV campaign Removes repair penalty/increases repair rate
Mine/goliath laying Gains overrepair capability
Tiger 1 - Anti-infantry DPS/speedy harassment
Speed boost Smoke launcher ability
Tank shock - like churchill Range boost
Rapid fire ability Long range shot ability
Jagdtiger - Anti-tank DPS/Tank
Site main gun ability Health boost
Damage boost Ability that slows and makes the jagd more resistant to damage
Treadbreaker Stun shot
While player 1 automatically spawns as the ace and gets:
Power shot Panzer group zeal or heroic charge type ability
HE shells Firestorm
Fast reload boost Henschel run
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Don't forget the Sturmtiger!
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I just don't think jagdtiger AND the KT are necessary since they're rougly the same. The way I see it, the three tanks should follow fairly standard MMO roles: DPS (Tiger 1), Tanking (KT/Jagd), Support (Berge) + Tiger Ace who is either support or another DPS. Obviously all the DPS roles somewhat converge but you could make the Tiger 1 effective against infantry mostly, the KT/Jagd anti-tank (longer range than Tiger and more damage but poor mobility) and make Tiger ace good at both AI and AT (longer range than standard Tiger + maybe an extra powerful shot ability). Maybe add the Jagd back in as a reward unit but only for this game mode? As in, Jagdtiger - Replaces KT as a controllable tank in the Tiger Hunt Operation.
Berge's would be very important in calling in allied units perhaps, and in repairing the tanks (which otherwise would have to have some sort of rudimentary self-repair). You could make the Berge player able to call in PGs (upgradable with either shreks or MP44s) as its basic ability, so the Berge player has some combat use and force the allies to use a little combined arms rather than spam fireflies or M10s. Also, PGs will add to the repair capabilities.
Maybe give each of the Tanks a beginning ability that doesn't need to be purchased with CPs:
Tiger Ace - Critical shot (like a treadbreaker cross power shot)
Tiger I - Blitzkrieg (as the Blitz ability, for this Tiger only)
Jagd/KT - Juggernaught (slows the tank further but increases defensive capability)
Berge - PG callin
So a quick revision of the command trees I suggested earlier with some alterations:
Bergetiger - Support tank: Has healing and group support abilities.
Basic abilities: PG call in, slow self-repair, repair and recover wreck
Agressive Support Defensive support
S-Mine launcher Build roadblocks
Creeping smoke barrage Improved repair (PGs as well)
PGs can plant teller mines/goliath laying Overrepair capability/quick fix ability (instant heal)
Tiger I - General combat tank: General all round fighting capability against infantry and tanks. Has some decent speed.
Basic abilities - Slow self-repair, Blitzkrieg (personal)
Blitz Power
Passive speed boost Range Boost
Smoke launcher (personal) Armour/Health boost
Tank shock (suppresses infantry/stuns tanks in a radius) Power shot
Jagdtiger/KT - Rolling Fortress: Nigh indestructible and excellent long range damage against Tanks. Weak against infantry. Slow and unwieldy. Terrifies and distracts enemies.
Basic abilities: Slow self-repair, Juggernaught (slower speed, less damage received)
Destruction Terror
Site Main gun ability (damage/range boost, immobile) Health boost
Passive reload boost Propaganda War ability
Heavy impact (shells briefly stun opponents ~1sec) Passively reduces enemy stats in a radius
Tiger Ace - Elite Panzer: Victory objective for the Allies. Can become either a command tank or engine of destruction through command trees. Is fast, resilient and deadly against all targets.
Basic abilities: Slow self-repair, Critical shot (long range, damaging ability that causes engine/main gun damage on target)
Commander Hunter
Panzer group zeal HE shells
Passively reduces cooldowns of friendly abilities in radius Increased range
Henschel attack run Faster reload
These command trees highlight the roles within the group. Berge is healer and general support. Tiger I is DPS, focusing on either speed/harassment or general combat boosts. Jagd is the slow tanking player, soaking up damage for the team. Has access to disruptive powers and/or DPS boosts. Tiger ace is either support player with good DPS or a super DPS player.
Self-repair would be a toggleable slow heal. It would completely disable the tank for the duration. It'd only be useful if a berge player wasn't on the field and you weren't seen by the enemy.
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Quick question: What does "DPS" mean?
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Damage per second. In MMOs, it is the player archetype that typically does the most damage for the group. For instance, a Sorcerer with his magic would be long range DPS while a berserker or something would be melee (close combat) DPS. A warrior with a shield might be the tanking role (KT/Jagd). His job is to hold the line, distract foes, and beat them down in a 1v1 fight over a long time with relatively low damage compared to DPS but huge health. Disruption is the name of the game with the "tank" player, which is why I focused the KT/Jagd abilities around this. It also strangely fits with the fact that both of these tanks belong to terror doctrine in normal games.
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I don't think that the berge nor PG need roadblocks. Remeber the convoy is almost unarmed and can't blow them up
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That's most interesting, Dennis. Your knowledge of M.M.O.R.P.G.s could come in handy for designing this gametype...
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I don't think that the berge nor PG need roadblocks. Remeber the convoy is almost unarmed and can't blow them up
You can make special roadblocks for this gametype, that cannot be built on roads.
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Haha, that would be so funny! :D
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Haha, that would be so funny! :D
Indeed ^^... perhaps we would need to change the name of that :P.
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errr.... this is going be a Tiger Hunt or a Convoy Hunt ??? ?
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That's what i would like to know - I like these ideas for a Tiger Hunt gametype, infantry-only gametype, and a convoy gametype, but they shouldn't be mixed...
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The huntend becomes a hunter..
As a secondary target for the Tiger players, then it's not just about to survive for them.
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I actually think that's a great combination, the Tiger Ace players have another target besides keeping the Ace alive...
I think it gives the axis players more of a goal in the game. Otherwise they'd just be running away the whole time and it wouldn't be very fun...
This should be enough to explain it :).
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I prefer the idea that the Tigers are the last remaining remnant of a decimated division, and rather than surrender, they choose to fight to the death.
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they should be the vanguard, because they would be the first things in and/or knocked out if you look at it that way
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These are the toughest tanks and most skilled crew of the division, so i figured they'd be the last to die.
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yeah thats one way of looking at it, more of a romantic/fictional theme to it though than the way real battles happened
on the eastern front the heaviest weaponry in the german arsenal were actually the first to be destroyed abandoned or break down
and as wel all know the most skilled and heroic soldiers were also the first to die, thats one of the reasons they lost cus they lost all their best divisions first
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Not necessarily - Just because you are the spearhead of an assault, it doesn't mean you will be the first to die.
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I know just tryin to help :) the storyline is up to you(whoevers doing it)
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How many generals were there that have lead their troops into battle, and survived? ;)
I guess walki1 should have final say, since it's his idea, and the devs should have final final say, since it's their mod. ;)
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in WWII? yeah the generals survived because they werent on the front lines, or the second lines they were not in the battle. and the german generals were sacked a lot so they werent around with any longevity :P
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I meant throughout history.
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@pariah: in Ancient times and medieval times, more then enough generals died in battle.
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I know many did, but i'm saying not all did. ;)
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The vast majority did in ancient Greece, where the generals fought on foot in the front row of the phalanx. Tactics were less important in hoplite battles and it was all about morale and leadership.
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In other words you are saying that it was about two groups of guys smashing into each other and trying to wipe the other mass out. (Hee hee, this reminds me of the good old days of Rangers vs Stormtrooper blobs)
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Pretty much. The only strategy required was to find the right battlefield, choose the correct shaped rectangle (8 men deep, very wide or 16 men deep, not as wide etc.) and charge at the enemy. There weren't actually too many losses on a hoplite battlefield, since they weren't professional soldiers and had to go back to work when they got home. The economy would collapse if all the working men were killed. Instead, hoplite battles were decided by who broke and ran first. A general's leadership would be instrumental in this.
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I guess walki1 should have final say, since it's his idea, and the devs should have final final say, since it's their mod.
For me: Yes
And I believe the devs will say: yes too
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So the Axis will have the choice between Bergtiger, Tiger Ace, KT and Jagdtiger/Jagdpanther. Should we add allied player too?
And how will the Allies work? (Im totally for 4 v 3 since Covoy will take up 1 slot being computer controlled.) I suppose the Allies should have a choice between Brits and America since both participated in convoy trains. Allies control 1 of 3 Companies and aim to destroy the Tank Ace, the convoys should have CPU controlled Greyhounds (lol at least its gaurded) but how will the Allies work?
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Well, first we need to work out what front it will be on - Will it be sticking with the theme of this mod and be on the Eastern front with Soviets, or on the classic Western front with Allies? Or do you want to mix it up, and have a totally unhistorical mixture? Or maybe an option, with multiple maps?
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At the moment it's 3 US Army Player vs 4 Tigers (Tiger Ace, Tiger I, King Tiger, Bergetiger)
The US Army starts with a "generic" basesector covered with tellermines, undistructable mg nests & pantherturms. Also they get a big ressource boost. After 1 or 2 minutes the first convoy (4 trucks, 1 jeep, 2 greyhounds (full upgraded)) will spawn.
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No, man! Why give them a base?! ???
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Because there is enough space on the map and do you want to balance a whole new gamemode?
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Yes. I wouldn't mind helping with balance. But giving the Allies/Soviets a base is not helping! Why not just have them come from off-map?
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Quiet simple: More scripting :P
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So what if it's more work? There's no excuse for cutting corners, if the end result will be inferior to what more work would get you!
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No I mean why creating a whole new call in faction if the base sector is already setted up :P.
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No I mean why creating a whole new call in faction if the base sector is already setted up :P.
+1.
Bases and convoys ARE needed ;)
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It's not a new faction, man; It's just the units called in from off-map, rather than built in a base. Just like Stonewall! Well, half of Stonewall...
Maxi, care to explain how bases and convoys are needed?
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You probably mean similar to the Men of War multiplayer.
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Haven't play Men Of War mate, so i can't compare it to Company Of Heroes. How does Men Of War work?
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Like walki already said, it would be much easier to create a base-based version of OTH, plus other things would ne too much Stonewall-like (off-map untis attack you in the middle). What if we just exchange these two aspects and make the attacker the one with the base and the attacked without base? Americans have bases, Axis have their Tiger Ace as victory target to keep alive.
Convoys are, like I said several times before, an extra goal for the Tiger players to reach, not just campy boring survival, you know?
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I don't know much about logistics, but it seems weird to me to run your convoy straight through enemy territory...
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Look at Red Ball Express SP mission. Germans try to flank your convoy all the time. According to the German situation in Normandy in summer 1944, it would be indeed possible that some isolated Wehrmacht units are roaming in enemy territory.
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The Red Ball Express over-extended the advance, which was clearly a mistake. These Tigers are on the defensive, fighting for their very survival, and not trying to sneak into enemy territory to eliminate a convoy.
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What would you suggest then as a secondary target for the Tiger players? Just camping is boring.
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Spoken like a true Panzer Elite player. ;D
They won't be just camping; The Bergetiger will be carrying out repairs!
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They won't be just camping; The Bergetiger will be carrying out repairs!
I like your sense of humour, but try to suggest something better/else than the convoy idea. ;)
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They won't be just camping; The Bergetiger will be carrying out repairs!
I like your sense of humour, but try to suggest something better/else than the convoy idea. ;)
The convoy, if it reaches it's designated area should give US players extra resources and some extra units or upgrades... like possibility to upgunn shermans to 76mm.
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I was serious - After each wave is dealt with, there will be repairs that need doing. No time for anything else!
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They won't be just camping; The Bergetiger will be carrying out repairs!
I like your sense of humour, but try to suggest something better/else than the convoy idea. ;)
The convoy, if it reaches it's designated area should give US players extra resources and some extra units or upgrades... like possibility to upgunn shermans to 76mm.
Nice idea actually! :D
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I think the allied players should have a fixed income, say +270MP +30FU, plus a large starting bonus. Each supply truck that makes it through would grant munitions to all the allied players. These munitions can then be spent on doctrine powers. Due to the fact that they won't really be gaining CPs from fighting the Tigers, give them set powers from the start. They will have to earn munitions before they can use them. Maybe just give them:
Recon run
Arty strike
Field Repairs
Allied War Machine
Bombing run
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The Allies/Soviets will need a lot more than that! Field Repairs, for example. Not sure what the Soviets have, but they could have some useful abilities...
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If the Tigers wanna survive isolated in enemy territory the have to ambush enemy convoys or they will run out of supplies before being able to fight till death, so its not that unreal.
I would suggest replacing the Panther-turrets with 17-Pounder as there are brits in there and its much more appropriate if the allies use their own weapons for base defence.
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But they're not in enemy territory; They're trying to hold their own territory.
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Regarding the Base-or-no-Base question:
I know from similar mods in WarIII where on side has to spam down a few heros of the other side, that it can be quite annoying to lose whole armys and dont see any effects and the "Hero"-side is much more fun to play. So i guess there wont be too many Players who want to play Axis in OTH.
Regarding this, if u give allies a base i guess it would be much simpler to add a AI, maybe the normal AI would work without bigger changes. (I dont know what CoH-AI does if you just lock some Units).
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But they're not in enemy territory; They're trying to hold their own territory.
They are fighting in "Null" Territory = No Man's Land
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How do you figure?
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How do you figure?
Maybe because I'm the one who is making it?
All US abilities:
-- Paratroopers
-- Paradrop AT Gun
-- Supply Drops
-- Air Recon
-- Strafing Run
-- Rocket Strike
-- Improved build times
-- Rangers
-- Off-Map Reinforcements
-- Riflemen build defenses
-- Off-Map Artillery
-- Howitzer
-- Vehicles Capture Points
-- Calliope
-- Pershing
-- Improved production
-- Vehicle Self Repair
-- Strength of Production
Already in:
-- Air Recon
-- Rocket Strike
-- Off-Map Artillery
-- Vehicle Self Repair
-- Strength of Production
Every vehicle which leaves the map safely will award the allied players 50 ammo & 10 action points (44 action points = 1 Command point)
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Ha ha ha, nice :P
So the convoys will virtually spawn on one side of the map and try to make their way to the other. So they will be going slow? (I recommend Churchill speed it'll be fast enough I think yet slow enough for the Germans to catch up and destroy it) and of course the Germans will know where its coming out from and its destination too.
If you can make an overview (on the V. first post so we know what's going on so far ;P)
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So the convoys will virtually spawn on one side of the map and try to make their way to the other. So they will be going slow? (I recommend Churchill speed
There will be three different kinds of convoys. The first ones will be "light"
Jeep
Truck
Truck
Greyhound
Truck
Truck
Greyhoud
The next "level" will be "medium" (slow)
Sherman Crab, MG
Sherman
Truck
M3 Halftrack Quad
Truck
Greyhound
This one is "medium" too
Sherman Croc Bulldozer
Sherman
Truck
Truck
Greyhound
Truck
M3 Quad
The last "level" is "heavy"
Sherman Crab, MG, Better barrel
Pershing
Truck
Truck
Sherman MG
Truck
Truck
Hellcat
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what's the point of 'light' convoy? Jeeps are dangerous to Tigers? :P
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Jeep has a good view range which is helping the allied players and it can damage the bergetigers PGs.
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How do you figure?
Maybe because I'm the one who is making it?
I meant in regards to the setting. Maybe i'm trying to make too much sense of it, but why are they fighting in "no mans land"?
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The frontline is no mans land. You don't know if there is an enemy and the opponet thinks the same.
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I know what no mans land is, but why are the Tigers there?
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To ambush the convoy...
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...And why would the convoy be in no mans land?
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...And why would the convoy be in no mans land?
Do you want to ask everything like a small children?
BECAUSE I SAID SO! HAHA!
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Mommy, walki1's being mean! :'(
;D
You're probably right - Maybe i am looking too far into it... :-\
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Yeap remember: Company of Heroes is a game not a realism simulation.
btw ask relic why there is no mans land in Operation Assault and why a hero can get invisible :D
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Yeah, but it would just feel better if this had some grounds in history and realism... Oh well. If i can live with Völksgrenadiers on D-Day, i can live with this! ;D
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It's pretty much the Red Ball express except with Tigers. Not that far fetched.
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Don't fuck with scar!
(http://walki12.wa.funpic.de/relic00008.jpg)
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HOLY ****!
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Love it lol
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Hahaha great :D
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Seems awesome.