Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Other discussions (Read-Only) => Eastern Front => Topic started by: Sommarkatze on June 29, 2011, 02:36:05 PM

Title: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Sommarkatze on June 29, 2011, 02:36:05 PM
Okey. First of all. Skip the flamewar boys. This is just a question and if we are going to debate I want common sense and nice friendly tones to each other.

Thank you ! <3

We are not suppost to talk about if Wehrmacht was better than the SS or anything like that. We are not going to even mention the word fascist, nazi, commi or fag. I Just want to get it clear which one they are based one. XD

Now to the point. Where ever I go on the internet. I always see somebody saying that PE is the waffen SS but with a familyfriendly name :3 Now I want to get this clear. Is PE the Waffen SS?

I got some notes here.

* They call themself kampgruppe Lehr. There was a Panzer Lehr in the wehrmacht. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_Lehr_Division (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_Lehr_Division)

*Hans Voss the commander of kampgruppe lehr is having SS insignias on his tabs. (Kind of farfetched.)

*They have the Hotschkiss panzer. I read somewhere about something like Rommels circus? A wehr unit in normandy mostly equipped with captured vechicles and stuff.

*The PE foot soldiers are all wearing camo. camo was much more common in the waffen ss than the wehr.

*They are called Panzer elit XD Everybody always seems to see the waffen SS as the elite of the third reich? ( We are not going to discuss that here.)

So. Entertain me fellow forum members! <3
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 29, 2011, 03:00:21 PM
Ghost Division. ;)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. on June 29, 2011, 04:51:37 PM
Anyone can answer this question at the moment.

Out of my view Kampfgruppe Lehr could be a mix out of the different Kampfgruppen that were positioned in the Netherlands. This Kampfgruppen were training units for new soldiers. This Kampfgruppen were bad equipped.
All in all they are - like Panzer elite - a mixed formation where u could everything and anything ;)

BUT one point is clear: it isnt germanys elite division Panzer-Lehr ;)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Killar on June 29, 2011, 04:58:15 PM
More interesting question is how got relic get the idea of implementing the bergetiger? Its still not clear if it was designed to recover damaged tanks at all

But this is another topic
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 29, 2011, 05:02:02 PM
Just to clarify, "lehr" means to teach, right?
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Blackbishop on June 29, 2011, 05:05:17 PM
Just to clarify, "lehr" means to teach, right?
Yes :P, and lehrer means teacher, i wonder how many teachers were there, remember Rommel was(iirc).
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 29, 2011, 05:07:05 PM
Thought so. I always wondered if the Panzer Lehr was some kind of training regiment, or just a name...

Yeah, i know "lehrer" means "teacher". That's how i worked that out. ;)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: RedGuard on June 29, 2011, 05:48:23 PM
teachers of the nazi ideology!  :P
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 29, 2011, 05:50:48 PM
Yeah, i guess, but i think learning to fight is more important that learning what you're fighting for. ;)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Killar on June 29, 2011, 05:54:18 PM
teachers of the nazi ideology!  :P
dont mix the wehrmacht with the political army which was the waffen SS
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. on June 29, 2011, 06:14:42 PM
The word "Lehr" of the Kampfgruppe Lehr can mean "to teach" or it is the name of the commander.
Lot of this improvised "Kampfgruppen" were named by their commanding officer. Perhaps Relic had some names and perhaps they had changed or modified one of those names ;)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 29, 2011, 06:18:10 PM
Thanks for the info, mate. So is the Panzer Elite somehow related to the Afrika Korps?
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Walentin 'Walki' L. on June 29, 2011, 06:36:58 PM
Quote
The Panzer Elite faction, called the Kampfgruppe Lehr, draws its inspiration from the mish-mash of German units that opposed Operation Market Garden, including the 2nd SS Panzer Corps and Luftwaffe paratroopers.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_of_Heroes:_Opposing_Fronts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_of_Heroes:_Opposing_Fronts)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 29, 2011, 06:41:33 PM
Cool, thanks for that, walki.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: vonklaus on June 29, 2011, 08:56:23 PM
There is no way they are SS. They have almost all obsolete equipment compared to Wehr. They are just meant to be the German forces defending Holland.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Chancellor on June 29, 2011, 09:01:52 PM
Their dark purple in-game flag looks awfully similar to the actual SS one, and they actually do have better infantry equipment than Wehr, such as being able to equip each man with Mp44s.  I think they ARE SS, its just Relic was trying to be politically correct.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Killar on June 29, 2011, 09:03:22 PM
The weapons they r using arent especially for SS. Read what rommel wrote
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 29, 2011, 09:04:58 PM
Politically correct? No, i think they have something to do with the Afrika Korps... I don't think they are very related to the SS, except of course for the fact they are all National Socialists.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: vonklaus on June 29, 2011, 09:07:58 PM
I always thought Strumtruppen were suppose to be SS infantry.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 29, 2011, 09:09:49 PM
I don't think so. The Blitzkrieg Doctrine doesn't have much grounds in history, anyway. ;)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. on June 29, 2011, 09:18:01 PM
There is no way they are SS. They have almost all obsolete equipment compared to Wehr. They are just meant to be the German forces defending Holland.

Well. The two SS-Division (9. und 10. SS-PzDivision) were badly equipped. Both divisions had fought in Normandy. Both division had high casualties- Both divisions had lost a lot of material and weapons. C. Ryan said that just most of the SPW (Schützenpanzerwagen - armoured halftracks) had survived the last battles. Most of the tanks and wheeled trucks were lost during the last battles. That e.g. the reason why both division got some Panzer III Ausf. J and N as reinforcement. So u cant talk about "well equipped SS-troops" when u talk about the 9. and 10. SS.-PzDiv. during Operation Market Garden.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Tico_1990 on June 30, 2011, 11:31:57 AM
Pariah, not every member of the WM, and it's subdivisions are members of the Nazi part
There is no way they are SS. They have almost all obsolete equipment compared to Wehr. They are just meant to be the German forces defending Holland.

Like LordRommel said, by the time the SS were defending the Netherlands, they lost a good portion of their equipment.
Also, Market Garden did not fight in Holland, they fought in the Netherlands. Holland is a part of the Netherlands, and not the entire country. Just like England is not the same as Britain, Great Britain, or the United Kingdom, Holland is not the same as the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 30, 2011, 03:36:49 PM
Pariah, not every member of the WM, and it's subdivisions are members of the Nazi part
Hmm, i'm no expert on that time period, but didn't everybody in the German military have to swear allegiance to Hitler? :-\
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Red_Stinger on June 30, 2011, 05:46:55 PM
Pariah, not every member of the WM, and it's subdivisions are members of the Nazi part
Hmm, i'm no expert on that time period, but didn't everybody in the German military have to swear allegiance to Hitler? :-\

Probably, but that doesn't mean that they were real nazi!
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 30, 2011, 05:59:31 PM
Hmm, so if i was to pledge allegiance to Hitler right now, you wouldn't think of me as a Nazi? How does that work? ???
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: cephalos on June 30, 2011, 06:04:39 PM
Hmm, so if i was to pledge allegiance to Hitler right now, you wouldn't think of me as a Nazi? How does that work? ???
Finland for instance. They were IIIR allies, but they weren't nazis at all. Enemy of my enemy is my ally.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Otto Halfhand on June 30, 2011, 06:34:06 PM
What part of the Lowlands constitutes Holland? I am Pennsylvania Dutch, German, Alsatian and Holland Dutch. This is a necessary distinction in PA because all Colonists who spoke German languages were considered Dutch. Swedes and Swiss are included but Jews speaking Yiddish are not. Should I refer to myself a lowland Dutch or what?
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Tico_1990 on June 30, 2011, 06:48:41 PM
Holland are two provinces (north and south holland), they are two out of twelve provinces, Holland are the provinces in the west of the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: RedGuard on June 30, 2011, 10:48:45 PM
yes every soldier in the wehrmacht had to swear allegiance to hitler, not just the SS
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Tico_1990 on June 30, 2011, 11:10:03 PM
yes every soldier in the wehrmacht had to swear allegiance to hitler, not just the SS
Again, pledging allegiance to Hitler did not make you a nazi party member.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on June 30, 2011, 11:12:52 PM
You're still a National Socialist, man. You still support that ideology by going to war and fighting for it.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Red_Stinger on July 01, 2011, 12:04:22 AM
You're still a National Socialist, man. You still support that ideology by going to war and fighting for it.

Or you just dont have the choice, because you and your family are threatened. You aren't obliged to commit war crime though.

Finland for instance. They were IIIR allies, but they weren't nazis at all. Enemy of my enemy is my ally.

Finland's non-belligerance is a myth. Finns executed a lot of people, and let much of their remaining prisonner (civil or soldier) starve to death. Moreover, their was a high number of finnish volunteers in the SS (more than its commonly accepted today, even in a liberal country like Finland). And even Finnish "ultimate" goals weren't too far from nazi ideology: razing St-Petersburg, and starve/deport all slavian population from the Greater Finland area.

Still, it doesn't mean that every finn is a convinced nazi, but people who present Finland like an angel fighting against the evil commie (not you Cephalos! you are at least rather objective) make me laugh  :P


About topic ;D , I think we should listen to LordRommel ^^
My opinion is that PE could represent SS, but also element of the Heer. But as Relic never really answered this question, we are going to debate this for a long time I suppose !
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on July 01, 2011, 12:08:52 AM
The idea that you are forced to go to war is, quite honestly, idiotic.

Back on topic, though, i think you are right; The Panzer Elite isn't likely based on anything specific in history. I still wonder what it has to do with the Afrika Korps, though...
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Sommarkatze on July 01, 2011, 01:31:17 AM
-Children Children..! (volksgrenadiers squad leader voice!)

What did I say in the first post. No argumenting over nazis or SS or wehrmacht and all that. Hell, Some of you even seem to be discussing geografic? XD

Its about the PE. And thanks everybody for the info! :D
I dont know though what to believe myself. I think I will go with COHwikis ;P

So, Now I got my ansver. You cute boys continue your debats, its fun as hell to read XD
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on July 01, 2011, 01:35:09 AM
"Stop touching me!" ;D

Well, if somebody could please clear up this whole Panzer Elite/Afrika Korps thing, it would be much appreciated...
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Sommarkatze on July 01, 2011, 01:44:51 AM
Now when you say it Pariah its actually quite intreesting to found out where this Afrika korps rumours is coming from XD

-looks like we are up for a mystery Scoob!

Where did it start? Did somebody say - Well, PE are former Afrika korps units.
I dont know. Discuss! <3
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on July 01, 2011, 01:52:24 AM
As you could probably tell by the second post in this topic, i figured this had something to do with it:
Sabaton - Ghost Division Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5V6sxZ8-eg#)
I don't know shit about history, but i think this is about Rommels Afrika Korps. Please correct me if i'm wrong. :-\
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Sommarkatze on July 01, 2011, 02:00:32 AM
Now I see. I think you are mixing up that part Blackbishop mention about Rommel.
He was refering to that Rommel was a teacher.

Or did my detective work got fuckd up big time here? XD
 ( fuck you LA NOIRE! FUCK YOU.)

and no. That video is about Operation Barbarrosa. The invasion of Soviet ^^ I think, I didnt listen to the music sorry XD I just got my new Perfume cd and was rocking that out ;>
 ( Yes. the japanese girl pop band.)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on July 01, 2011, 02:02:57 AM
Barbarossa, ey? How did you find that out?
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Sommarkatze on July 01, 2011, 02:05:17 AM
Well the little bit of the song I actually heard was the invasion has begun XD And In the video there are mostly tanks from that era.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on July 01, 2011, 02:09:49 AM
The video doesn't matter - It's fan-made, so it doesn't necessarily fit the song perfectly.

Here's the lyrics:
Quote
Ghost Division Lyrics

Fast as the wind
The Invasion has begun
Shaking the ground
With a force of 1000 guns

First in the line of fire
First into hostile land
Tanks leading the way
Leading the way

Charging the lines with a force of a furious storm
Fast as the lightning phantom's swarm
200 miles at nightfall taken within a day
Thus earning their name, earning their fame

They are the Panzer Elite
Born to compete
Never retreat
(Ghost Division)
Living or dead
Always ahead
Fed by your dread

Always ahead as the Blitzkrieg rages on
Breaking morale with the sound of blazing guns

First in the line of fire
First into hostile land
Tanks leading the way
Leading the way

Leaving a trail of destruction through a foreign land (Waging war with conviction)
Massive assault to serve the Nazi plan (Wehrmacht's pride ghost division)
Communication's broken
Panzers are far away
Thus earning their name, earning their fame

They are the Panzer Elite
Bound to compete
Never retreat
(Ghost Division)
Living or dead
Always ahead
Fed by your dread

Pushing the frontline forth with a tremendous force (far ahead, breaks resistance)
Crushing the way for Panzer Corps (shows no fear, self-subsistence)
First in the line of fire
First into hostile land
Tanks leading the way
Claiming the fame

They are the Panzer Elite
Bound to compete
Never retreat
(Ghost Division)
Living or dead
Always ahead
Fed by your dread

Panzer Elite
Bound to compete
Never retreat
(Ghost Division)
Living or dead
Always ahead
Fed by your dread


Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Sommarkatze on July 01, 2011, 02:14:52 AM
Hmm. I really dont know. But I would say yes. Its for Operation Barberossa.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on July 01, 2011, 02:18:55 AM
Well, maybe the famous historian Lord Rommel can clear this up...
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Tico_1990 on July 01, 2011, 08:57:19 AM
The Ghost division was the name given to Erwin Rommel's panzer division during the invasion of France. They moved so fast that even German high command didn't always know where Rommel was, hence the name "Ghost division".
As for what the panzer elite represents, given the missions that you fight with it, I'd go with what has been said earlier in the thread, they represent the forces who are defending the Netherlands (specifically, the area of Market Garden, so that would be the Eastern part, centred around Arnhem).
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: pariah on July 01, 2011, 03:05:17 PM
...But i thought general Rommel operated in Africa? ???
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Sommarkatze on July 01, 2011, 03:17:51 PM
He operated in both France and Africa :3
Hm. This means I was wrong about the song. DAMN :C
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Tico_1990 on July 01, 2011, 03:23:10 PM
He first fought during the invasion of the Netherlands, Belgium and France. He was redeployed to Africa, but when the Africa Korps was beaten, he was again redeployed, this time to France to defend the Atlantic wall (which is the line of defences at the French coast), which as you might know was defeated in this little thing called D-Day.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: vonklaus on July 01, 2011, 06:09:46 PM
Rommel has a real interesting story from rise to fall I recommend spending a few minutes reading it. Shame his alternate universe self migrated to the USA in T-191 or the South might have won the 4th Civil War.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: maxi1991 on July 01, 2011, 10:03:22 PM
...But i thought general Rommel operated in Africa? ???

He operated in Africa. But before that he commanded a tank division in france, the(if i remember it right) 7. Panzerdivision. This was the Gespensterdivision or Ghost Division.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Otto Halfhand on July 06, 2011, 09:10:36 PM
From my point of view the PE Faction represents generic KampfGruppen,  regardless of their TO&E,  OKW affiliation or political associations. PE does not deal exclusively with Market Garden but also with The Normandy Campaign (around St Lo and Caen in CoH and OF) and Remagen (CoH).

The poem cited below almost certainly refers to THe Ghost Division of 1940.  Rommel was particularly known for relentless advances and for being out of communications. He frequently broke his LOC deliberately when he received an order he wished to circumvent. 200 miles in a day? Poetic licence. Maybe the MC battalion could do 200 miles in a day but no other equipment had near that range of operation. Eight hours in the saddle would most certainly hurt the Heinies Hineys big time as well.

Danger Will Robinson! Rant alert!

(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/firefly_3.jpg)
 Well Sommarkatze; thats my take on what the PE faction is supposed to represent. I hope it was entertaining.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Mattdamon07 on July 17, 2011, 06:36:12 AM
Panzer elite must represent them.

1. They have panzer greens
2. They have more camo then most units
3. In campaign them represent the SS panzer divisions defending Arnhem.
4. They have that scorched earth tatic which is kind of SS work to me
5. The upgrade group zeal sounds like the SS to me
6. The narroter for them sounds brutal
7. The pe are a very mobile faction like the SS divisions
8. They are given very unique vehicles Such as jag panthers




Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 17, 2011, 06:49:00 AM
I think they're just ad Hoc divisions formed to defend against Operation Market Garden since they didn't have time to mobilize properly. They're a collection of lots of different units.

1. Panzer Grens are any infantry working with Mechanized/Armoured divisions aren't they? Not necessarily SS
2. Camoed units could be anything but are likely more elite units like SS
3. In the campaign they aren't stated to be SS divisions. Kampfgruppe Lehr division is a collection of the units training in the Netherlands (Lehr = to learn).
4. Scorthed Earth has been used by armies throughout history. Has nothing to do with SS
5. Group zeal could be appropriately applied to any German unit due to their use of combined arms, communication and coordination.
6. The narrator is German and Germans do sound brutal. Especially the awful German accent he puts on :S
7. Mechanised infantry were in the Heer as well as SS divisions
8. They also have Hotchkisses and Marders, old style equipment. Lends further support to the fact they're a hodgepodge of different units that just happened to be in the Netherlands at the time.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Mattdamon07 on July 17, 2011, 06:55:49 AM
No I think it was SS that had PG's
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Tico_1990 on July 17, 2011, 10:48:21 AM
Mattdamon07, Panzergrenadier is (losely) translated to: armoured/mechanised grenadiers. They are mechanised infantry, which is not an SS exclusive, both the Heer and the SS had panzergrenadier regiments. For more information on the subject (even though it is not a great source): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadiers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadiers)
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Mattdamon07 on July 18, 2011, 03:20:39 AM
Just saying they were commen in the SS regiments.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. on July 18, 2011, 08:16:56 AM
They werent commen in the SS ;)

Panzer-Division had Panzergrenadiers. Like Tico already explained: They were trained to fight with armoured vehicles like tanks and half-tracks.. Panzergrenadiere were equipped with half-tracks and motorised weapons and smg to got as much firepower as possible.
The SS need some month longer to transform their "SS-Schützen" into "SS-Panzergrenadiere".
So Panzergrenadiere arent NO indicator for SS.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: tigerclawstyle on July 18, 2011, 09:28:34 AM
This is off topic but the initial posts about the allegiance of the Wehrmacht, and Rommel intrigued me. This is a passage from one of my favorite books. The author is trying to summarize reasons he's thinks the German Army was so easily manipulated. Quoted from the book.

1) The army of 100,000 men to which we were entitled under the Treaty of Versailles was deliberately trained to be nonpolitical. As a result, the officer corps lacked perspective.

2)Hitlers initial successes (the elimination of unemployment and the Communist threat, as well as the repatriation of former German territories to the Greater German Reich) restored self-confidence to the German people and the growing Wehrmacht.

3) The young people who were called up for military service were recruited mainly from the Hitler Youth and other National Socialist organizations and were correspondingly motivated, if not fanaticized.

4) Most decisively, it seems to me: the oath of allegiance was the creed of the officer corps. Hitler knew this and exploited it shamelessly.

End quote. For those of you interested the book is called "Panzer Commander, the personal memoirs of Colonel Hans Von Luck", the youngest man to achieve that rank (in the German military at least) during WW2. Rommel was his teacher in War college, and served with his ghost division in the invasion of the lowlands and France. After being transferred to the Russian front and fighting there, he was again transferred back into Rommel's command in Africa (Rommel asked for him personally). If you want to read a good war memoir and learn more about Rommel from a man who actually served under him and knew him, then I highly recommend this book.

Sorry for getting off topic.
Title: Re: Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?
Post by: Mattdamon07 on July 19, 2011, 02:29:07 AM
wow i will learn from my mistakes, but there is one thing i know is that Panzer gren adiers from the SS were usaully better such as 12thSSPanzerDivision< my fav divi, dispite war crimes