and that eventually the soviet union would have won because at the time it was then that they actually had the advantage. strike while the iron is hot. if they engaged each other then soviet would have kept the upper hand
Not to mention a nuke on Moscow would end a war pretty quickly.most important point. Shortly after the war british and american long range bombers equipped with nuclear weapons were deployed to GB before the Soviets had their long range missles. That would be GG for the western forces making tank armys completly useless
You do understand that Guards weren't universally the best troops, nor were Rifles universally the worst. In real life, a Conscript could be a great shot, all people are equally predisposed to dying on the battlefield despite their Elite status. I'm a great shot and I have never been to war. I'm pretty sure that most Americans were great shots then because many went (and as I do till this day) hunting, not as a sport but as a means to survive. The Common Soviet was not a marksman unless he gained that skill on a battlefield.
Being outnumbered means little in a war were both sides possess MGs, and other modern weaponry that could mow lines of infantry in half.
By the end of the war, most Conscripts were part of Strelky and Guard regiments because by then the tide had turned and the Soviets had the equipment and time to give them proper training (which by this point many didn't need)
You do understand that Guards weren't universally the best troops, nor were Rifles universally the worst. In real life, a Conscript could be a great shot,
A total of 101 fatalities were recorded as a result of the operation, including 40 Britons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_people) and 31 Americans,[4] mostly due to crashes. Seventeen American and eight British aircraft crashed during the operation... During the early months of the airlift, the Soviets used various methods to harass allied aircraft. These included buzzing by Soviet planes, obstructive parachute jumps within the corridors, and shining searchlights to dazzle pilots at night. Although the USAFE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAFE) reported 733 separate harassing events, including flak, air-to-air fire, rocketing, bombing and explosions, this is now considered to be exaggerated. None of these measures were effective.- Wikipedia
Morning guys,
Some ideas for your consideration:
Prologue: The land area known as the USSR has never been conquered outright. Overrun yes. conquered no.
- There is little evidence that a Soviet Air defense system would have had been any more effective than the German defenses were against the Anglo/American onslaught. During the Berlin airlift in 1948 the Soviet Anti-air response was in-effective; (A lot of airmen died though). THe air defense of Japan was so effective that LeMAy ordered the Switch of USA Bombing to nighttime operations.
During the Berlin airlift in 1948 the Soviet Anti-air response was in-effective;(A lot of airmen died though). "A total of 101 fatalities were recorded as a result of the operation, including 40 Britons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_people) and 31 Americans,[4] mostly due to crashes. Seventeen American and eight British aircraft crashed during the operation... During the early months of the airlift, the Soviets used various methods to harass allied aircraft. These included buzzing by Soviet planes, obstructive parachute jumps within the corridors, and shining searchlights to dazzle pilots at night. Although the USAFE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAFE) reported 733 separate harassing events, including flak, air-to-air fire, rocketing, bombing and explosions, this is now considered to be exaggerated. None of these measures were effective".- Wikipedia
Information travels so fast now,This brings up the subject of espionage/counter espionage. THe Anglo/Americans were, are(?), the masters of code breaking. During WWII they had cracked the Japanese naval code; (Midway and Pearl Harbor- You don't really think it a coincidence that All USA Cvs were at sea on 12/7/41 do you)? German Naval and Heer codes. Actually the Poles cracked the Enigma Naval code inf 1936(?). THe allies sent advanced notice of Barbarossa to Pappa Joe. (He ignored it just like king George II before 9/11). How would/did this effect the planning or implementation of Operation Unthinkable? At Yalta Stalin agreed to declare war on Japan 90 days after the Nazi's were Kaput. The USSR occupied Korea on August 9-10, 1945. THe JS3 was part of the occupying forces. Presumably Shock guards were too. In 1941 it took the Far East Army 4-5 months to arrive before Moscow.
2. When Eisenhower became president he authorized the Interstate Highway System. (America's Military highway system). He insisted that one mile in every three of highway be straight and flat.... for use as airfields and landing gliders. A little idea he copied from the Third Riech's Autobahn.Were the flat stretches of highway actually used in WW2?
I believe I have confused the issue. German fighters used the autobahn as emergency airstrips when necessary. IIRC in Leon Uris' novel about the Berlin Airlift he mentions a C47/C54 doing likewise. Harrisburg Intl Airport's runway is only a mile long and it bases C130's. My point was that the Autobahn could have been used for advanced basing for air operations in Germany by either side during Unthinkable. To expand upon the difficulties foreign armies would have had in a battle on German Soil: Rail lines airfields and ports were fairly easy to interdict. THe western Allies march into Germany was radically slowed by the Necessity of trucking fuel to the advancing armies from Normandy. From 1936 on all internal truck traffic inside Nazi Germany was fueled by Hydrogen. Fuel for ANglo/American and Soviet armies would have to be continually brought in once the German military fuel supplies were unavailable. The more I consider Logistical problems involved with Operation Unthinkable the more it seems like Mission Impossible. And we really haven't gotten into the land combat capabilities part of the arquement yet!?!2. When Eisenhower became president he authorized the Interstate Highway System. (America's Military highway system). He insisted that one mile in every three of highway be straight and flat.... for use as airfields and landing gliders. A little idea he copied from the Third Riech's Autobahn.Were the flat stretches of highway actually used in WW2?
THe fault (Dear Crassus) is not in our stars but in ourselvesMy bad lads. I hope the correction I made to the post clears things up. I'm very weak on writing skills. Too many years working as a mechanical and civil engineer.
RedGuard: if an Abrams starts driving in the US, and I shoot a heat seeking missile up into the sky in Europe, I'll hit it.
it depends on the war you need to fight.Oh so true.
insurgency and guerilla tactics are how you defeat the americans, wound their morale and break the public support at home.I would add effective propaganda to this list. Bin Ladin's, (may he rot in Gehenna), propaganda campaign to win the heart's and minds of Muslim Fundamentalists was a masterstroke.
The question was what is the best tank
RedGuard: if an Abrams starts driving in the US, and I shoot a heat seeking missile up into the sky in Europe, I'll hit it.
hah, thanks for the laugh. ;D theres no MBT that can defeat the abrams in a slugfest.
the US military, is smarter than that and more experienced than you can obviously imagine. this abstract anti armor system you speak of would be long disabled/destroyed before they deployed/exposed their armored columns
Between 2005 to 2009, 80 M1 Abrams were heavily damagedOf the 80M1 Abrams KO'd in combat (up until 2005?) Only 2 were written off AFAIK. When deemed unrecoverable the local tank crews used their own primary armament to try to destroy the abandoned tanks. (They weren't particularly effective as I understand; apparently demolitions and auto destruct are not features the Amis use in their Tank program), Much, (some?) of the data on RLA penetration of the 105/120 tank and defensive effectiveness of Abrams various armor protection systems come from these incidents. Most of the reported damage to tanks in THe American Follies in Asia seems to come from close range urban assault type operations. Amis countermeasures include providing carbines for each tanker, Hand held AT weapons and the TUSK system (Tank Urban Survival Kit). Apparently All Amis MBTs will be provided with TUSK. It is interesting to note the Reactive Armor (read as skirts and Zimmerit) in TUSK is left up to the tankers as a field applied solution) Note: in a previous post I used the term ECMs improperly. I should have use the term Countermeasures. :Pand totally written off.
Also I've read numbers like that from many nations, regarding the cost of having a soldier deployed in combat zones. Any idea what the cost's of soldiers in WW2 or Vietnam?All numbers are IIRC $162,000-US/soldier/year in Vietnam; $40,000-US/soldier/Year in WWII. I'm stretching here but $1,000,000-US/ day/week(?) for US CivilWar - Federal. Somebody should try to make an honest man of me if they have better figures.
[...]
Also, Italy never was a great nation, Rome was one.
And I'm a history student (university level). Sweden was a powerful nation once, even though you RedGuard might not be willing to aknowledge that. If you used to provide balance suggestions the same way "if I don't think/know then it isn't true" then I'm glad you aren't a part of the balance team anymore.
if you provide stupid arguments they way you do now your head will melt down and you will make other mentally slow by looking at you. slughead ;D
im glad i cant actually see you
Greece never did anything? Well Alexander might have been Macedonia but most of his soldier were Greek. Culture Powerhouse unmatched by any in history. Is there any period of history in one region that has more great works, from Philosophy, to architecture, art, literature.The Poster seems to forget that the Indian and Chinese cultures are way older than said "Cultural powerhouse" and they survive to this day. On topic, the British had control of the middle east and Iran. They could have used it as a spring board to launch an invasion of the Caucasus. No Oil for the Ruskies!!!
Tigerclaw, I'd say a feasible option would be to do a naval invasion on St. Petersburg and then either expand that territory a bit so that you can split the Soviet attention on multiple fronts. The other option, albeit risky, would be to do a naval invasion in st. Petersburg, and then march on to Moscow. The downside to this is that you'll be left with a very long corridor for your supplies which is easily attacked.
Greece never did anything? Well Alexander might have been Macedonia but most of his soldier were Greek. Culture Powerhouse unmatched by any in history. Is there any period of history in one region that has more great works, from Philosophy, to architecture, art, literature.The Poster seems to forget that the Indian and Chinese cultures are way older than said "Cultural powerhouse" and they survive to this day.