Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Terenas on July 05, 2011, 01:46:16 PM
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Hello Guys, after 4 Years i decided to post again because i found back to this mod.
And i am very pleased, the most balance issues are gone, i will never play the normal game again, Wehrmacht and Soviets are balanced, but there is 1 small thing which needs still improvement i guess..
So this is my problem: Long Games with Wehrmacht vs Soviets
All in all you can win them yes, but i mean Defense lines become more and more useless when the game becomes longer and longer, also vs Brits.
The reason is that the German Bunkers and defense lines are extremely week in the endgame, i think thats unlogical. How can a brit build trenches and Germans not? i mean its known that the germans builded heavy defense lines and had extremely strong bunkers. But a Bunker in the game becomes destroyed too fast that it is nonsense to play defensive.
Game all in all is balanced if game lasts short time and if wehrmacht attacks too, but building bunkers and defense lines is nonsense with wehrmacht and that is annoying because in no limited units games russia is really unbalanced so i WHICH i really WHICH you to modify the Defensive Doctrin... maybe change the Registred artillery with the normal artillery and and instead of the normal artillery the V2 for 4 points and after that "Bunker Specialisation" for 5 Points, which improves Bunker strenght so they are.. useful and makes the player able to build trenches. (and form them like you can form sand bags, so that player can really build systems and comine them with his bunkers. Also give this Abilty to build such "Bunker systems" to every army, Americans Brits and even Soviets, but they should have normal trenches while germans build conrcete trenches (which are much stronger)
That would be very nice,.. what does the community think
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Vanilla factions (USA and Wehrmacht) will not be changed by Devs.
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First of all, nice that you found your way back to EF.
V2: no go.
And please don't use long no popcap skirmishes to argue about balance, that doesn't work. Balance is only a valid argument for 1v1 and maybe sometimes 2v2 VP games, nothing else.
It's logical that you lose your bunkers to against Soviets in no popcap games because your opponent, just like you, is able to spam infinite units (well, at least until your manpower income is=0).
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1. devs won't change vanilla factions.
2. Trenches promote 'camping and passive game' ( not sure who said that, I like trenches). But everyone else here hates them, so they won't be included.
3. No pop cap games suck.
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Dont see he said it a nopopcap game, but hell yeah, some players build trenches in choke points defend from enemy's crush (very good against hard and expert AI) but keep them too long make game became lame >:(.
Bunkers are reliable only in early game, you should not expect from them in late game, when the allies have tanks and lot of arty to use.
Did the dev change command point to call in Stuh42 from 3 to 2?
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late game wehr is hands down the strongest faction, hello vet 3 units. Maybe your problem is that you are building to many bunkers?
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wehr is OP in 2.602 if your losing its your fault not the soviets, but maybe we should nerf some more things just to be sure
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Are you seriously complaining that Wehr endgame is too weak? Lol
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Are you seriously complaining that Wehr endgame is too weak? Lol
Ha ha, I might make this a sig!
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Did the dev change command point to call in Stuh42 from 3 to 2?
It's already 2 CP and 500 MP in 2.602, only in EF it's 3 CP but I think it will be fixed.
wehr is OP in 2.602
What? ??? Don't say that a faction is OP just because you hate it. ;)
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Despite the fact that Red is a massive fanboi, axis ARE in fact slightly OP in 2.602. The volk reinforce was set too low, 25 would be enough, and the MG setup time was completely unnecessary. G43s are also death eaters now. These early game changes messed up the balance a little.
The StuH has already been fixed to match 2.602.
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Red is a massive fanboi
+1 ;D arent we all :P
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i think wehr is in lategame nearly unbeatable (vet ftw)... btw: wehr bunkers are sooo strong when u go def doc... one snip arty plus commissar arty the same time wont kill it...
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Sniper Arty kills it in 1 shot I am sure. Commissar dose not.
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It usually takes me 2+ sharpshooter arty call-ins to bust a bunker,vet1 or vet2). I Don't know about interim repairs though.
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well i just had a game where i tried it.... enemy was def doc and my snip and commissar shot at the same time arty fire at the bunker... it hits it perfect but it didnt got destroyed... only when there is no def doc, u can destroy bunker... bunker recieves more health when def doc is choosen...
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When the Major gets his heavy artillery Strike will that one shot a bunker?
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the command squad arty strike will never destroy a full health bunker, not even if its a vet3 heavy strike.
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So then its made for infantry only?
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The accuracy of the sniper's arty is not high, even the position of the first wave of it is so random, so I think sniper's arty cannot be use to measure.
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So then its made for infantry only?
I believe Redguard is talking about one shotting a bunker. Multiple artillery strikes can take down two or three base buildings including bunkers in one salvo if you have been working on them for a while. Also Find 2-3 batteries doing a ShootnScoot Katyusha raid on a base are very effective at ripping up multiple base structures. I've used my observer to well observe the action.
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2. Trenches promote 'camping and passive game' ( not sure who said that, I like trenches). But everyone else here hates them, so they won't be included.
To be fair, I only hate trenches because they're nigh invincible. :-\
If they actually had a weakness other than fire, like perhaps CQB, they wouldn't be so bad.
They are weak to fire, but most fire weapons are extremely inaccurate (barrages), expensive (inc. grenade), or a glass cannon (flammen pioneers).
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melee should have been implemented into this game, its the only thing that was left out. and it would fix a lot of imbalances
conscript bayonet charge doh! :o
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melee should have been implemented into this game, its the only thing that was left out. and it would fix a lot of imbalances
conscript bayonet charge doh! :o
That would be a new experience. Vet 3 conscripts charging heavy machineguns could be the new box art of COH EF.
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I cant tell if your being sarcastic :D
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Take a guess. ;)
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melee should have been implemented into this game, its the only thing that was left out. and it would fix a lot of imbalances
conscript bayonet charge doh! :o
That would be a new experience. Vet 3 conscripts charging heavy machineguns could be the new box art of COH EF.
that would look nice and authentic remind me of old soviet propoganda posters. not one step back!
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Bleh. The whole trenches thing gets pathetic. They have been watered down to pointlessness due to constant whining. If the brits actually get anything with teeth, it gets watered.
The trenches are hard to kill, guess what, thats not a surprise.
The men in trenches are pointless.
The enemy can walk up to trenches and walk around - especially at any vet levels. I have yet to see any viable killing power from a unit in a trench. One squad of pios can walk up and decimate a trench even when the whole trench is firing at them.
The Wer can deal with trenches in short order care of Pioneers and snipers.. Especially at any vet level.
Men in trenches are actually hobbled because they are immoble, and sit there quite uselessly. It can be quite advantageous to find your oppo is simply trenching up.
PE get the options to take grenades early game, and again, as these are counters to trench play, whats the whining about?
And lastly, the taking of a brit trench is a prize worth snagging, because if you put troops in them, the brits really struggle to counter it.
2. Trenches promote 'camping and passive game' ( not sure who said that, I like trenches). But everyone else here hates them, so they won't be included.
To be fair, I only hate trenches because they're nigh invincible. :-\
If they actually had a weakness other than fire, like perhaps CQB, they wouldn't be so bad.
They are weak to fire, but most fire weapons are extremely inaccurate (barrages), expensive (inc. grenade), or a glass cannon (flammen pioneers).
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Holy shit, you're back?!?
Not worth responding to your ridiculous post. Trenches haven't been "watered down". They haven't ever been touched.
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Hey brits-got-epic-nerf guy welcome back to the forums.
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Bleh. The whole trenches thing gets pathetic. They have been watered down to pointlessness due to constant whining. If the brits actually get anything with teeth, it gets watered.
The trenches are hard to kill, guess what, thats not a surprise.
The men in trenches are pointless.
The enemy can walk up to trenches and walk around - especially at any vet levels. I have yet to see any viable killing power from a unit in a trench. One squad of pios can walk up and decimate a trench even when the whole trench is firing at them.
The Wer can deal with trenches in short order care of Pioneers and snipers.. Especially at any vet level.
Men in trenches are actually hobbled because they are immoble, and sit there quite uselessly. It can be quite advantageous to find your oppo is simply trenching up.
PE get the options to take grenades early game, and again, as these are counters to trench play, whats the whining about?
And lastly, the taking of a brit trench is a prize worth snagging, because if you put troops in them, the brits really struggle to counter it.
2. Trenches promote 'camping and passive game' ( not sure who said that, I like trenches). But everyone else here hates them, so they won't be included.
To be fair, I only hate trenches because they're nigh invincible. :-\
If they actually had a weakness other than fire, like perhaps CQB, they wouldn't be so bad.
They are weak to fire, but most fire weapons are extremely inaccurate (barrages), expensive (inc. grenade), or a glass cannon (flammen pioneers).
Looks like a brit version of Red.
BritGuard?
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Looks like a brit version of Red.
BritGuard?
LOL ;D
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AT least he dosent troll around ;D
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AT least he dosent troll around ;D
God forbid he join the balance team :P
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Yeah. I guess that explains his rank. On topic: A bunker with a heavy MG42 in most respects than a heavy MG42 bunker. Let me explain. Pros and Cons
PROS
*A bunker with a MG42 team inside it has a wider arc of fire than a MG42 bunker
*It can counter fire from multiple directions
*You save munitions which can be used to hurl grenades at BRIT TRENCHES
*You can upgrade the bunker to a repair/medic station and still fire at soldiers
CONS
*Team is vulnerable to snipers, flamethrowers, mortars and pineapples.
RESULT MG42 team in bunker wins.
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Or you could just be offensiv.
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Read the topic name
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Yeah. I guess that explains his rank. On topic: A bunker with a heavy MG42 in most respects than a heavy MG42 bunker. Let me explain. Pros and Cons
PROS
*A bunker with a MG42 team inside it has a wider arc of fire than a MG42 bunker
*It can counter fire from multiple directions
*You save munitions which can be used to hurl grenades at BRIT TRENCHES
*You can upgrade the bunker to a repair/medic station and still fire at soldiers
CONS
*Team is vulnerable to snipers, flamethrowers, mortars and pineapples.
RESULT MG42 team in bunker wins.
MG42 team in a med bunker is the best combo if you want to put your HMG in a defensive position. You still have to watch for flanks as they are more vulnerable to flanks because they turn slowly and only at command. They also are slow to retreat because they have to exit. Throwing grenades in the bunker makes it easy to clean it out.
Keeping snipers, flame pios or volks/grens near a bunker to help protect VS flanks is a good idea. Flame pios in the bunker deny some troops getting too close when flanking.
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MG42 team in a med bunker is the best combo if you want to put your HMG in a defensive position. You still have to watch for flanks as they are more vulnerable to flanks because they turn slowly and only at command. They also are slow to retreat because they have to exit. Throwing grenades in the bunker makes it easy to clean it out.
Keeping snipers, flame pios or volks/grens near a bunker to help protect VS flanks is a good idea. Flame pios in the bunker deny some troops getting too close when flanking.
In truth, hardly a good lvl player will place a MG inside the bunker. Thats because MG is completelly in "auto aim" mode and the player can't change direction of fire or alternate fire. Yet, MG inside bunkers is so much vulnerable to flanking that MG's on the open and they take much time to pack - rearm AND have a narrow arc of fire.
High lvl players frequently use tatics like:
- Changing focus of fire to supress more squads (ie: 2 rifles separated but close to each other, then the whermacht player shots one burst in the first rifle and the second in the second rifle). A secret: normally this is done on burst invervals ;).
- Packing and unpacking MG to change arc direction or send it to a safer position, all the time.
- Shot flamer first.
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In truth, hardly a good lvl player will place a MG inside the bunker. Thats because MG is completelly in "auto aim" mode and the player can't change direction of fire or alternate fire. Yet, MG inside bunkers is so much vulnerable to flanking that MG's on the open and they take much time to pack - rearm AND have a narrow arc of fire.
High lvl players frequently use tatics like:
- Changing focus of fire to supress more squads (ie: 2 rifles separated but close to each other, then the whermacht player shots one burst in the first rifle and the second in the second rifle). A secret: normally this is done on burst invervals ;).
- Packing and unpacking MG to change arc direction or send it to a safer position, all the time.
- Shot flamer first.
Yes, Bunkers are very vulnerable, was just returning the thought on the bunkers.
Flamers are very dangerous and are typically targeted first. I usually use my volks to kill Flames as despite some peoples thought they are still pretty fragile, you just gotta keep them moving.
I typically keep 2 MGs in the area, one closer to the front lines and one a bit further back to protect the first one from flanks. I use MP40s to clean up and Mines/Grens/Flames to clean up any flankers.
Setting wire and placing mines in small cut corners that units will travel through when set to "Auto-Pilot" are a nice way to stop flanks dead in their tracks, just redeploy flames or MP40s to the area to clean up the mess.
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If having your mg dying in you bunker is such a problem then you could always upgrade to HMG :P. That would allow your mg to do other things. You would need a squad to protect it though as its very vulerable to flanking manuveurs
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If having your mg dying in you bunker is such a problem then you could always upgrade to HMG :P. That would allow your mg to do other things. You would need a squad to protect it though as its very vulerable to flanking manuveurs
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MG Bunkers are potentially one of the worst upgrades to the bunker itself. MG bunks are not reliable because they are easily flanked and easily destroyed. Granted the MG can't be killed but the bunker is susceptible to flames, demo charges, AT weapons, etc.
Repair stations are good in team games when your team mates need a hand with their vehicles but your pios are fighting elsewhere.
Medic Bunkers are the best option because they have the capability to give you free grenadier squads with only 4 troop recoveries. That's 300MP for free. Within the first 4 men recovered the medic bunker pays for itself twice over. Plus vet is globally applied so if you get vet 2 you're getting elite armor troops for free. It also supports multitudes of strategies, such as a heavy T2 Paks+Vetted Grens with a later T4;Or even a T1-T3 blitz, it can recover your lost volks and turn them into grens, which you have no access to.
You can also reinforce from bunkers which supports defensive strategies.