Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Strategy and Tactics => Strategy and Tactics for Wehrmacht => Topic started by: Catblind on November 29, 2011, 05:54:32 AM
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Hi! I'm new to the forums but I've been playing EF for a while. It's a great mod.
Now, does anyone know how the Tiger Ace compares to the Blitz Tiger, Pershing, and IS-3?
I was using a Tiger Ace the other day in a multiplayer game vs the soviets, and although it proved to be a very good anti-infantry tank, it fell short of my expectations for AT and durability. An IS-2 and two nearly dead SU assault guns pushed back my full health Tiger Ace and killed it, despite the support of four shrek-grens. All shots penetrated my Tiger's front armor. I thought it would have more HP and armor than that, it's a freaking one-time-use Tiger Ace, not a Pershing.
Can anyone please provide this unit's stats? HP, armor rating, damage/penetration, accuracy vs infantry and tanks, max gun range, etc, in comparison to the other heavy tanks, namely the Blitz Tiger and King Tiger.
Also, does the long-range shot ability increase damage?
Would a Tiger Ace lose 1 on 1 vs an IS-3? How about an IS-2?
And for a little discussion, how would you use your Tiger Ace? Run it straight into the enemy like a Jagdpanther? Or use it as an anti-infantry version of a firefly, at a distance? I'm opting for the latter.
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From the design view of the game, a Tiger Ace should be better in a duel vs IS-2... why? Because that tiger is a special call-in(aka doctrinal and one time call-in) while IS-2 is a "normal" unit.
While testing balance this fact was reported(along with other observations), and the Balance Team is making sure the Ace is good enough for it's cost(Yes, it will be tweaked :P).
The long shot ability should fire a shell that always penetrates, same dmg, accuracy and probably a slight increment of range... and ofc, better penetration. Or at least that was the idea, probably it is a little bugged at the current release version ^^.
For the other questions, I think that will wait until the experienced players share their opinion ;D.
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Thanks for the feedback bishop!
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No problem, welcome to the forums btw ;D. Edited some parts of my previous comment to make it more readable :).
IS-2 is like an Axis panther, in fact it should be able to fight face to face vs the panther. Tiger ace has better armour than Tiger but worse than KT, has the same weapon that Blitz Tiger and is as faster as a Panther, HP is 1500 atm. This tiger is very fast, you should use it as spearhead of your vanguard forces, but also it cannot attack alone, it should always be supported.
IS-3 is like an IS-2 Ace :P.
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In 1.5, IS-2s have higher damage modifiers vs Tiger armour than they should, so the Ace is very vulnerable to them. This is fixed in 1.6.
Tank Health Armour type Range Damage AoE Speed
Tiger 1064 Tiger 40 138 Huge Slow
Vet3 Tiger 1383 Tiger X 0.85 40 138 Huge Slow
Tiger Ace (1.5) 1500 Tiger 40(70) 138 Huge Fast
Tiger Ace (1.6)* 1300 Tiger X 0.9 40(70) 138 Huge Fast
King Tiger 2000 Tiger X 0.8 45 165 Small Very Slow
Jagdpanther 1600 Jagdpanther 45 165 Small Fast
Panther 742 Panther 47.5 138 Tiny Fast
Pershing 990 Pershing 40 138 Large Moderate
IS-2 1100 IS-2 (Pershing) 40 150 Small Moderate
IS-3 1250 IS-3 45 165 Huge Moderate
*these are current stats only and subject to change.
For armour types, JP>IS-3>Tiger>Pershing.
The modifiers to Tiger armour mean that (armour wise), JP>KT=IS-3>Tiger Vet3>TA>Tiger>IS-2=Pershing
Tiger Ace would lose to an IS-3 but easily beat an IS-2 (in 1.6). It should be used to harass units that stand no chance against it, rushing in to deal a whole heap of damage and then retreating with fast speed. He can easily kill Shermans, T-34s and infantry before escaping. AT guns are also easy prey for the Ace with good speed and AoE. If it needs to fight an IS-3, he should weaken it first with some Crack Shots before trying to take it on head-to-head. He can use superior speed to kite.
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Wow thanks! The chart is very helpful. That pretty much answered most of my questions.
But one more thing - if I recall correctly, the Tiger Ace was 800 mp up front, though I might be wrong. But considering the following...
- The Jagdpanther has 1800 hp, and up to 2282 hp w/ def vet. It costs 5 minutes of 100 mp drain, around 500 mp total. It has even stronger armor than the KT.
- The King Tiger has 2000 hp and cost 500 mp up front, at least in vcoh.
- The Tiger ace has 1500 or 1300 hp with inferior armor, compared to the aforementioned german tanks. It's gun range puts the tank well within firing range of other tanks. Crack shot can only be used so often. Even if this tank is fast, it is less survivable overall imo.
- There are so many other factors to consider. AI and AT competency, speed, accuracy, gameplay style, etc. I'm getting a headache thinking about it.
All in all, I want to know, will the cost be tweaked?
Also, can you find the Tiger Ace's firing rate?
Thanks again, I really appreciate your work here.
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Tiger Ace cost has already been set to 500MP upfront with -100MP/min drain over 5 min to match KT and Jagdpanther.
Tiger Ace fire rate matches Blitz Tiger. As said before, it actually uses the same weapon file. The speed is the single most valuable part of the Ace's arsenal. It makes it so it can strike whatever target it wants, usually something that can't fight back. It makes it very difficult to counter. It can also outrun any serious threat except perhaps T-34/85s or a vetted Pershing. Tiger Ace is the best anti-infantry weapon in the game and is very powerful against a variety of tanks.
*Edited previous post to include Jagdpanther
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Ah I stated the cost and HP wrong, huh.
Anyways, I'm satisfied! thanks for everything. ;D
Will put your chart and advise to good use when I get the time to play EF again, haha.
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Speaking of the Tiger Ace, could the sound of the ace be that of the mini campaign tiger? It would make it feel more Ace-y :P.
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Speaking of the Tiger Ace, could the sound of the ace be that of the mini campaign tiger? It would make it feel more Ace-y :P.
The generic Tiger 105 (replacment of Blitz Tiger) has the speech of Hauptmann Voss
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Yes, that is what I am suggesting.
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I would also like to see the Tiger Ace improved in some way shape or form as it just doesn't seem worth it in my eyes, you may as well go for the Blitz Tree to get a Tiger over and over rather than just one as a one time call in.
I tend to favour the Classic Tiger II otherwise known as the King Tiger over the Tiger Ace as it seem like it takes much more punishment and also has the 42 on the top of the turret.
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i think the tiger ace is one of the fastest tanks. you are right, it doesn't have the armour of the tiger2, but i believe it has better accuracy and speed. this makes the KT easier to be ambushed, and caught by off-map/ calliope arty.
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Aye it may be a bigger target but it can take a hell of a beating, when I was using the Tiger Ace most shells didn't seem to do damage they just bounced off it may be more accurate making it good in that sense but when your shells can't penetrate a T34 front armour it seems rather strange.
So I would personally use the Tiger II over the Tiger I, but saying that people may have different tactics than me you may favour a hit and run or simple circle and shell tactic, where as I prefer to have a hard hitting slower tank that can take the pain :p
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well thats whats great about reward units. use em if you like.
Edit yes the KT is a beast.
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Correction KT is THE beast.
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I'm not going all in on this position,
but I feel like as is, when I'm playing against wher I would much rather see him pop the KT than the Tiger Ace. The speed is really everything, making the Tiger Ace just as survivable in a way, because it can get out of a scrape and go get repaired. 500 HP difference, less shell damage, FAST move speed and turret speed and as a result, maybe more effective at dishing out damage
it seems more effective to me as a game changer because it can actually push the enemy off more than one vp, and just as effective as a game clencher. That may just be that it is more effective against my style of play, but I have the concern(though possibly unfounded) that it is due to being the better unit.
That apparently doesn't seem to be the consensus though, and the verdict is out here too, but thought it worth mentioning.
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I'm not going all in on this position,
but I feel like as is, when I'm playing against wher I would much rather see him pop the KT than the Tiger Ace. The speed is really everything, making the Tiger Ace just as survivable in a way, because it can get out of a scrape and go get repaired. 500 HP difference, less shell damage, FAST move speed and turret speed and as a result, maybe more effective at dishing out damage
it seems more effective to me as a game changer because it can actually push the enemy off more than one vp, and just as effective as a game clencher. That may just be that it is more effective against my style of play, but I have the concern(though possibly unfounded) that it is due to being the better unit.
That apparently doesn't seem to be the consensus though, and the verdict is out here too, but thought it worth mentioning.
QFT
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I kinda agree. Someone might have the KT sitting at a VP, beating back soliders. The Tiger Ace, however, has the speed to defend say, 2 VPs :P. Maybe not as effctively but you get the point :P
@Joshua9: Are you suggesting the Tiger Ace is too powerful ???
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The KT can be used as a Steamroller, to just barge its way toward the enemy without needing to stop, kite or micro. With support, a KT is absolutely unstoppable. An Ace must be used as a precision tool and requires a lot of micro. It is better when used by itself to harass forces weaker than itself and dominate small groups on infantry. Both are good in their own way. I personally prefer the Ace, other good players prefer the KT. It's all about personal choice really.
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Tbh I just think it needs something new some sort of ability to make it worth getting... Why go for the Tiger Ace when you can go Blitz and get an unlimited amount of Tigers that are just as good as the Tiger Ace and not have to worry about losing the Tiger as you can always replace it with another Tiger same stats etc.
The Tiger Ace just needs something to improve it otherwise a player may as well choose the Blitz doc over the Terror or just use the KT over the Ace
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Tbh I just think it needs something new some sort of ability to make it worth getting... Why go for the Tiger Ace when you can go Blitz and get an unlimited amount of Tigers that are just as good as the Tiger Ace and not have to worry about losing the Tiger as you can always replace it with another Tiger same stats etc.
The Tiger Ace just needs something to improve it otherwise a player may as well choose the Blitz doc over the Terror or just use the KT over the Ace
New sounds and new abilities?
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Did I say something about sounds? What do you mean by new sounds?
I meant upgrading the Ace with a new ability would make it worth getting over the Blitz Tiger
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What I meant was that the ace has the same sound as the Wehr Tiger. Adding new sounds would make it more unique. Of course this will be a cosmetic change. Personally, I would like the ace to cloak itself or an auto repair ability.
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LMAO, a cloaked TANK?? that is hilarious, lol, not to mention a tiger. that's a good one. anyways, the "abilities" it has is manuverability and speed. its a reward unit, therefore if you like the KT better, use it. the tiger ace doesnt need a buff IMO.
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@Tankbuster So you mean like a Camo scheme allowing it to get off one shot before engaging in combat much like the Pak 38?
Its a nice idea to think of but it may prove to be a little OP, but the Dev's could tweak and balance it somehow I presume?
@Stealthattack1 but saying that a player may as well just choose a "Normal" Wehr Tiger that they could call in numerous times rather than having a one time call in with essentially the same stats maybe a little stronger
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LMAO, a cloaked TANK?? that is hilarious, lol, not to mention a tiger. that's a good one. anyways, the "abilities" it has is manuverability and speed. its a reward unit, therefore if you like the KT better, use it. the tiger ace doesnt need a buff IMO.
Umm Hetzers can cloak. And those mofos are huge. Dont even get me started on the "diminutive size" ::). Cause if you cant see that thing then u should not have a gun.
Anyways I think the Tiger Ace needs something unique, not just powerful. Just like why get Grens instead of sticking to Volks? Not only are they powerful, they can use shrecks and MG42 and nade. Why use rifleman over Rangers when it comes to AI? Cause they have sprint and submachine guns and elite armor. I could go on but I wont :P.
Maybe the Tiger Ace can get something sorta useless or not game changing, but special :P. And use the old Tiger Ace sounds if possible :D
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Umm Hetzers can cloak.
i didnt know that. anyways, my point was to say that the tiger ace is good as it is.
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Umm Hetzers can cloak.
i didnt know that. anyways, my point was to say that the tiger ace is good as it is.
But it needs something so it doesnt just look like a Tiger with like double the horse power and black camo (which is kinda is atm)
BTW I notice you're a Guard now. Hooray ;D
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why thank you fish. and i do agree that some improvements for the tiger ace would be nice, i just feel that it doesnt need it.
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TA already has the Crack Shot ability that grants extra range (70) and damages engines. Nothing else will be added.
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TA already has the Crack Shot ability
I never knew that ???. Was that recently added or was it there b4 cause when I used te TA I didn't see crack shot ??? Gitch?
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I'm fairly sure we put it in for 1.5. It received further improvements for 1.6.
Crack shot is a 70 range ability that damages engines and has high penetration. It allows it to compete with the opposing 1-timer, the IS-3.
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Could you spill the beans on the improvements?
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Well, in 1.5 there is a bug so that Crack shot has very low penetration and actually does LESS damage than a normal shell. It is also more difficult to use because the aim times aren't as fluid. These were corrected in 1.6.
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Good. I used to wonder why it was so crappy.
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now Tankbuster can bust more tanks!
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now Tankbuster can bust more tanks!
Oh you guys and your play on words ;D
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now Tankbuster can bust more tanks!
BOOM
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Has the tiger ace been tested in the context of the "beloved" old brit faction? I'm wondering because by the grace of its ridiculously lumbering speed, fireflies will fend off a King tiger, at least keeping it at bay, and there is plenty of time to react to a kt on the field, getting out a second firefly as needed.. my experience against this bastard is that it can just blitz in and make scrap out of my only tank that can hurt it, and then have free reign to do whatever it wants.
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It has a little over half the health of a KT. Fireflies will always penetrate and kill it very quickly. Against anything less than a Firefly or 17lber though, the TA will dominate the field.
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Actually, with a bit of micro you can dominate the Firefly. The comet has no chance against it.
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I thought it hat 1500 to the KT's 2000 hp, is that not right?
on edit:
I see, the updated version will only have 1300 hp. Am I right in reading that its armor type is higher than the KT? Does tiger armor x .9 mean less than a standard tiger? The armor value is another area where I think this should take a bit of a hit...and I'm really interested in seeing what happens when it also gets its special range shot.
As to the fireflies dealing with it...you mean fireflies plural obviously, which is just hard to have on the ready against a very agressive gren strat, because those puppies are a huge cost sink until that tank hits the field. Is the tiger ace the same cost of 500 upfront and then a drain over time? If that is the way it works, I don't think it reflects it's immediate shock value. The KT is a force of slow domination, and a slow drain makes sense to me. Tiger ace should pay upfront in my opinion.
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No, that's not how the armour works in CoH. When I say x0.9, that is the modifier to penetration vs for enemy weapons. So say a 17lber has 100% penetration vs Tiger, it now has a 90% chance vs the TA. *Example only
King Tiger armour is better than the TA. The ace will have the same drain as KT, Jagd and IS-3.
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The Tiger Ace is most effective vs. American and British units, against the stronger soviet tanks the King Tiger performs better due to having superior armour . However, it depends a lot on your playstyle. If you can utilize its speed advantage somehow by hunting down enemy tanks or flanking AT-Guns it's definately a good choice.
King Tiger is for spearheading a frontal assault to soak up damage, while the Ace is better at causing chaos in the enemy frontlines during an assault by attacking, retreating once the enemy notices and then attacking from a different angle again.