Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: mrxplek on January 13, 2012, 03:33:05 PM
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my concern is its faster to build a panther,actually you can get a vet2 panther faster then an is2.
suppose the wehr player skips t3 and goes directly to t4.
i have divided the panther fuel cost as follows
skirmish phase 35 fuel
krieg barracks 25 fuel
assault phase 50 fuel
battle phase 50 fuel
panzer command 50 fuel
building a panther 110 fuel.
the wehr palyer gets an initial fuel of 20
15 fuel is spent on wher quarters
wher player will have an extra 5 fuel.
so the total is 320-5(initial extra)= 315 fuel.
i have divided for is2 fuel cost below
tankhall 55 fuel
light tankovy upgrade 55 fuel
heavy tankovy upgrade 80 fuel
close range support 35 fuel
medium range support 35 fuel
is2 135 fuel
total cost of is2 will be 395 fuel.
this is ideal condition where you don't spend any fuel in armoury.
the difference is almost 395-315=80 fuel
you might think that instead we should go for t-34,t-90,t-70 but the strategy of skipping t3 is to hold you're line with grenadiers and paks.if blitz doc then storms.you can get shreks or mp44 or mg42 upgrade to hold out against infantry and tanks and then go full offensive with t4 tanks and kch against infantry.
suppose we get tank hunter and zis upgrade then we will waste 80 fuel.he can get vets for both his infantry and tanks and if he sees tank hunters and zis he will use his infantry to beat them and get infantry vet.if we get infantry upgrades he can use the panther,p4s to kill infantry. we can not roll out is2 cause we have to get upgrades for infantry like sterlky and guards which is another 100 fuel.there is no way to roll out an is2.
t-34/76 and t-34/85 are not as good as is2 against panther i have checked it t-34/76 can reduce the panther's health by a fraction in a one on one battle.
t-34/85 is better it can reduce it to half health in a one on one battle.
is2 is good against a panther one on one,but it wont fare well against a vet 2 panther.as mentioned the wehr player will have grenadiers with shreks and paks as backup.with these he can easily beat an is2 and base rush.
i suggest that the armoury upgrades be changed with tank hunters and zis2 requiring manpower+fuel.
shock guards and red banner requiring manpower+munitions.
i love to play as Russians but for some reason most of the time they seem to suffer from a resource shortage (fuel and munitions).
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You can't just take all the fuel together and say only because the total full count is more the IS-2 is getting out latter. You have to understand that a game IS NOT LINEAR! Not everybody has the same ressource income and the same capping power. You also have to think about the players mapcontrol, the more fuel points you have the faster you'll get the IS-2 out, and soviet has a lot of capping power in the beginng so it's ok that they need to pay more for the IS-2 in the end.
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but in most maps,there are usually five fuel sectors with one being 16 fuel other being 6 fuel.now if he controls two of them and ops one of them because he has extra manpower skipping t2.there is an addition of 10 fuel.the point in skipping t3 is to create a defensive line.im not saying about building bunkers or wires.you can use a mobile force to defend like a force of grenadiers,paks and volks.bikes against ingery.the situation is aggravated in 2vs2.where one player can go t4.while other keeps pressure using all tier units.
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I'm not sure of the exact prices for Soviet tech so correct me if I'm wrong, but to unlock the IS-2 you need the light and heavy tankovy upgrades, right? And to unlock the T-34/85 you need the heavy tankovy upgrade and the 85mm gun upgrade from the armoury. I think the 85mm gun upgrade is more expensive than the light tankovy upgrade, so it's actually cheaper to unlock IS-2s than T-34/85s. That seems about right.
I got to admit I haven't used the IS-2. When I find myself with that much fuel I just get T-34/85s. And if your Wehrmacht opponent is able to rush to vehicles as well as buying vet then he has a hell of a lot of fuel points and you shouldn't be trying to get your own vehicles anyway.
is2 is good against a panther one on one,but it wont fare well against a vet 2 panther.as mentioned the wehr player will have grenadiers with shreks and paks as backup.with these he can easily beat an is2 and base rush.
And this doesn't mean anything. The vet 2 panther supported by grenadiers with schreks and paks will defeat an IS-2? So what, are you saying it shouldn't? Why is the IS-2 unsupported?
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IS2 is similar to a panther battle group of PE. You have to tech all tiers to get it. Thats how it is designed.
Other than that the patch comes soon and you have to rethink or abandon your suggestion anyways after that.
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I'm not sure of the exact prices for Soviet tech so correct me if I'm wrong, but to unlock the IS-2 you need the light and heavy tankovy upgrades, right? And to unlock the T-34/85 you need the heavy tankovy upgrade and the 85mm gun upgrade from the armoury. I think the 85mm gun upgrade is more expensive than the light tankovy upgrade, so it's actually cheaper to unlock IS-2s than T-34/85s. That seems about right.
I got to admit I haven't used the IS-2. When I find myself with that much fuel I just get T-34/85s. And if your Wehrmacht opponent is able to rush to vehicles as well as buying vet then he has a hell of a lot of fuel points and you shouldn't be trying to get your own vehicles anyway.
is2 is good against a panther one on one,but it wont fare well against a vet 2 panther.as mentioned the wehr player will have grenadiers with shreks and paks as backup.with these he can easily beat an is2 and base rush.
And this doesn't mean anything. The vet 2 panther supported by grenadiers with schreks and paks will defeat an IS-2? So what, are you saying it shouldn't? Why is the IS-2 unsupported?
if he ops one or more fuel sectors.he will get a resource bonus.since there op costs 200 manpower,whereas russian op is 250. if you spam t-34s he can use panthers agaisnt them.i know that is2 should be supported by infantry but they are better with there upgrades.guards are good but by that time he will have kch.
im not emphasizing on my suggestion.i just want the modders to consider such a scenario.
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Question: If you see a enemy tank do you go for atgun or a tank to counter it?
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you go for a at gun.but you need the zis and tank hunter upgrades to beat a panther.you will have to sacrifice on sterleky upgrades and shock guard upgrade.but with his infantry of grens he can get vet for them and easily kill your at gun and tank hunter.
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How can the Wehrmact possibly get T1, T2, vet and a panther before you can get some appropriate counters? Not to mention all the paks, grens with shrecks, and kch this guy has.
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Vet isn't free you know. Vet 2 is more expensive than RBS or MAT and vet won't save him against Snipers, mortars and guards - all of these options are available to you if you are rushing IS-2. Remember that rushing IS-2 is not a favourable strat. The game should've gone on for at least 20min already before you even think of IS-2s. The counter to Panthers with gren support are T-34/85s, snipers and AT guns. IS-2 is more for being agressive against a lategame, heavily entrenched position with Paks where the T-34s aren't much good. They are also better against Tigers and other endgame heavy tanks.
Remember that if you rush an IS-2, you have every Soviet unit buildable. Use the correct counters.
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this is a strategy i would follow as a wehr player.
get two pio to cap and build wehr quarters.one volks to cap and fight infantry,mg42 or volks will be second squad.if i don't have enough fuel another volks or a bike.
now i go t2.get a mortor or a pak depending on the scenario next get grenadiers.i can get one or two of them depending on the ops i have built.if i take blitz doctrine i can get storms.now shrek upgrades if i see a t-90s,t-70s.if i see infantry mg42.
next i go for panzer command panther if i see t-34s.now in this scenario Russian player has to get at upgrades as he wont have enough resources to build an is2.in this case either kch or vetrancy for grenadiers.he would get red banner sterelky to beat grenadiers.so he will be short of fuel to get guards upgrades.
if i see mass russian infantry of p4s or ostwind.since i have infantry to support it against tank hunters and at gun.in this scenario the Russian player would've spent a lot on his infantry upgrades munitions wise.and he might not have enough to upgrade for at guns or tank hunters.
i haven't tried is2 against entrenched positions or tigers i will check it. if it fares well in these scenarios then yeah the game is pretty balanced.
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It seems the scenario you're describing is one where you outplay your opponent anyway. If you build an early OP you're going to be low on fighting units and I don't see how you could not get pushed off unless you were just better than the other guy anyway. Even if you do hold an OP the Soviets will have more of the map than you and will be able to tech as freely as you.
In other words, your strat requires a heavy and consistent flow of fuel to you, which you should not be getting if the Soviet player is doing what he should.
in this case either kch or vetrancy for grenadiers.he would get red banner sterelky to beat grenadiers.so he will be short of fuel to get guards upgrades.
I just can't believe you could get T4 units before the Soviet player could get RBS, unless he went T3/T4 first in which case you shouldn't have enough fuel for T4. Also, why would the soviet player get guards/shock guards if he already has RBS?
and he might not have enough to upgrade for at guns or tank hunters.
They don't have to be upgraded to be useful. One regular AT gun can turn back a P4.
I could be wrong but it seems to me the scenario you describe requires everything to be going your way anyway, in which case it doesn't matter what the Soviet player does.
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if this situation actually has happend to you, post a replay. other than that, i will just consider it as all theoretical. but then again, its not me you have to convince, its GLD.
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If you want to save on fuel but still get powerful assault infantry, I would suggest Sturmovie. Be aware that you won't be able to spam them once you access them (like Strelky) because they are expensive and have several anti-spam measures built in. However, they are good in a vehicle rush situation because they can repair and are good at clearing out AT guns. You can also go prop for Navals and Red Tide, which can supplement your vehicle rush needs.
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irrevlevant but I think t-90 is just as expensive but weaker than a puma
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i actually thought that a t-90 could take out an unupgunned puma. anybody want to back me up?
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Yes it can although in a lesser extent than in 1.500, where the sdkfz. 234 didn't have a chance. In the next patch the match between these units should be fairer though.
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i actually thought that a t-90 could take out an unupgunned puma. anybody want to back me up?
+1
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Isn't the IS-2 like a buildable Tiger?
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IS-2 should match a panther. IS-3 should match a Tiger cause they are both callins.
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IS-3 should match KT/ TA as they are a 1 time call in.
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actually kt is slightly better then is3.is2 could knock out a non vet panther.but vet2 panther and is2 are almost at same level.
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actually kt is slightly better then is3.
He didn't say KT, the KT should still hold power against all heavy tanks, so should the JP5.
IS-2 should match a panther.
IS-2 should match PBG, not the Panther. IS-2s will win in 1v1 with Panthers. In a 2v1 situation it's a toss-up. Unless you have incredible micro, you can not kill a IS-2 with a Panther alone. You'd need some other type of AT support. (I've managed to kill 2 IS-2s from Dennis with a single Panther.) This does not work with the IS-2 has Vet, you definitely need 2 Panthers
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WHy does the IS-2 perofrm so much better than a Panther? I thought they cost the same (speaking from that point). IDK what they difference in teching is (cost wise) but I'd imagine its similar :P
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A large part of it boils down to luck. If your IS-2 shots bounce of the panther thrice while the panther penetrates thrice, you can kiss your IS-2 goodbye. It is WAY better against PE blobs tho.
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Panther<IS2<Tiger<IS3<KT
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IS2<Tiger
WAT ???
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IS2<Tiger
WAT ???
Whats so suprising about this? Tiger get pre purchased vet and has better armor and more health IIRC. And it may do more dmg (not actually sure about that one). And its a call in that cost more :P
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No, I was reading about the IS-2 in Wikipedia and it came as a shock to me.
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Realism =/= balance
IS-2 would beat a Tiger in reality, and would probably be on an equal footing with an OH Tiger but a Wehr Tiger will outmatch it.
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How does a 3xDefensive vet PE panther match up against the IS-2?
It will have super speed (7.9 m/s), be harder to hit by 19% and have 19% damage reduction - a fearsome opponent!
http://companyofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Panther_(Panzer_Elite)
And ofc: a whopping 940 HP!
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How does a 3xDefensive vet PE panther match up against the IS-2?
It will have super speed (7.9 m/s), be harder to hit by 19% and have 19% damage reduction - a fearsome opponent!
http://companyofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Panther_(Panzer_Elite)
And ofc: a whopping 940 HP!
Vet 3 Panther should beat a Vet 0 IS-2. (In 1.6) Because a IS-2 has not very good accuracy at long range, if your micro is good, and you keep distance, you should be able to swing around the IS-2 because of it's bad turret turn rate and hit him where it hurts.
Offensive vet might help you penetrate better but it's a gamble.
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But what about Vet3 panther vs Vet3 IS-2?
I imagine the panther cirklestrafing the IS-2, and generally being able to either escape or chase it
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You can assist the turret rotation of a tank by also turning the tank.
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i dont think we can account for bad/good micro, but i tihnk on the vet 3 level, is2 will win.
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Vet 1 IS-2 will beat a Vet 3 Panther
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hey just wondering, what is the penetration rating of pak 38s vs the frontal armor of IS-2s? Also, at one point in a game a few days ago, I had my IS-2 facing a pak frontally. There were 3 others paks behind it (somewhat far, maybe half a screen) and it might have just been a coincidence between firing times of one pak, deflections, and firing times of paks behind (which I'm not sure were even firing) but it seemed that when a shot was deflected, it still did some decent damage. I assume this is just PAKs penetrating but actually if so they penetrated very often and I'm sure they were all hitting my front. Maybe ONE pak was hitting a corner of the side. What are the armor strength (in terms of deflection) for the IS-2 per side?
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When shots deflect they still do damage. But you say "decent damage" so im assuming that it still took a good chunk of your heatlh out, regardless ???. If so maybe thats a statistical problem that needs to be looked into :P. Paks are suppose to damage IS-2s but not that well :P. You need a few Paks, or a tank and a pak
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On paper, IS2 > Panther. In-game, its still usually a very close 50-50 toss-up most of the time, even if the IS2 is vet 3. These theories about Panther vs IS2 1v1 battles or circle-strafing the IS-2 are ridiculous.
You will rarely have a 1v1 tank engagement. 99% of the time, the tanks will have support, and Axis can usually support their tanks better than Allies can, which is probably why Panther vs IS2 engagements are a toss-up instead of a clear IS2 victory.
Also, even if it really boils down to a 1v1 tank fight, you will never be able to completely circle-strafe any tank with a turret if the other fucker knows what he's doing. Yes, the turret on tanks like the KT and IS2 turn fucking slow, but if the prick you're facing is good, he'll Michael Wittmann your ass by turning the tank direction WITH the turret at the same time, which lets the cannon catch up with your circle-strafing tank.
Finally, I kinda do think that the IS2 does have a bit too many requirements to unlock. It already costs a ton of resources to build one, and I think it places undue burden on the Soviets to unlock building upgrades they won't use just to be able to build a certain tank, while the Wehrmacht can build a comparably powerful Panther with much less red tape. Its kind of like Panther Battlegroup, which also has a fuckton of requirements, but its not half as good. If the resources required for all the IS2 prerequisites are equal or only a bit higher than the resources for Wehrmacht to tech to T4 (Tank Hall and Panzer Command costs included), then I'm wrong about this.
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Pak 38 penetration vs IS-2:
0.3825/0.405/0.5625
This is exactly the same as against a Pershing but IS-2s actually have more health and will last longer. I don't know why you think an IS-2 would be able to take on 3 Paks. Paks have 0.5 deflection damage, so even when they fail to penetrate, their damage only drops by 50%. Compare this to a Panzer 4 for example that will deal 85% less damage if it fails to penetrate.
IS-2 prerequisite cost:
35+35+55+55+80 = 260
Wehr Panther (assuming T2-T4):
35+25+50+50+50 = 210
PBG requirement:
25+35+30+40+30+60+20 = 240
The IS-2 cost is only a little higher than the others and it is easy to assume the Wehr player will get tank vet1 which closes the gap by a further 30FU. All 3 of these options allow almost every unit to be buildable.
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Wher has Shreck, PaK, and smaller tank support (like a StuG or a Panzer). SU has TH, ZiS, and smaller tanks (T-34 or KV). So I kinda agree, Wher has better AT support to complement a semi weaker Panther. And quite honestly I have yet to see a lone panther fight a lone IS-2 :-\. So I kinda agree with Yauz :P
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Consider that the Wehrmacht player has to go out of his way to get a panther whereas the Soviets will have some of the upgrades required to get an IS-2 already, and its army gets free vet.