Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => General Discussion => Topic started by: bopokippo on February 02, 2012, 09:32:03 PM
-
I know it's probably for gameplay reasons, but I was just wondering why it was decided to make the SU-76 like a tank destroyer. As far as I know, it was equipped with a ZiS 3 howitzer designed for close infantry support like a StuG. It wasn't that bad against tanks but its main intended role was an assault gun to take out infantry and soft strong points so I was just wondering why it was chosen to be a tank destroyer type vehicle.
-
i think you are right when you say gameplay reasons.
-
ZiS-3 was a field gun, not a howitzer, it could be used for both AT and indirect fire roles but it was mostly used for AT. SU-76 role is accurate, it was a multi-purpose vehicle... support gun, indirect fire and Anti-Tank. Obviously, it can't have an indirect fire mode for gameplay reasons.
-
ok but my point is that SU-76 is terrible vs infantry and in reality (field gun or howitzer) it should be fairly effective against infantry. As of now, it is basically nothing more than a self propelled anti-tank gun and any purely anti-tank cannon was highly unsuitable for the support gun role as support guns need decent HE shells for soft targets. ZiS 3s were pretty good against light emplacements and infantry fortifications so why in the game is it treated as no more than a tank destroyer? And ZiS 3 was mostly used for light artillery. And yes, it could direct fire and such, but its AT capabilities were lacking compared to ZiS 2s and 85mm D-5T guns seeing as its purpose as a "Field Gun" was demanded to combine direct fire and indirect fire resulting in decent HE and HE shrapnel shells as well.
-
It shouldn't, otherwise we wouldn't need the T-70 or the T-90. It's only role is to be a light Tank Destroyer not an all around light vehicle, no matter if in RL it was.
-
THE GOLDEN RULE
gameplay > historical accuracy
-
It shouldn't, otherwise we wouldn't need the T-70 or the T-90. It's only role is to be a light Tank Destroyer not an all around light vehicle, no matter if in RL it was.
I believe that is why he said in his first post "It is probably for gameplay reason"
-
That's correct, however his arguments doesn't match these words ;D... other than that it was already covered by BurroDiablo's answer.
The only role left in Light Tankovy was the TD, that's why SU-76 took it.
-
Vehicles are fixed in their roles since CoH doesn't make for good AP/HE shell swapping type MoW gameplay... any vehicle would have been alright at taking out 'soft' targets given the right shell was loaded. ZiS3 wasn't terrible at tank destroying, had worse penetration values than a ZiS2 but of course, the ZiS3 was chosen for its 'all encompassing' role in reality, but it can only have 1 role on a CoH battlefield and we have chosen it to be a tank destroyer. To be honest, had the SU-76 been put in a light artillery role, we'd've had a lot more complaints ;D
-
Vehicles are fixed in their roles since CoH doesn't make for good AP/HE shell swapping type MoW gameplay... any vehicle would have been alright at taking out 'soft' targets given the right shell was loaded. ZiS3 wasn't terrible at tank destroying, had worse penetration values than a ZiS2 but of course, the ZiS3 was chosen for its 'all encompassing' role in reality, but it can only have 1 role on a CoH battlefield and we have chosen it to be a tank destroyer. To be honest, had the SU-76 been put in a light artillery role, we'd've had a lot more complaints ;D
heh... didn't mean for it to come off as a complaint ;D but sorry if it did.
BTW since this is already an up and going topic,
What are the advantages of a sniper ace over a sniper other than the following fields
Cloaked Movement Speed Increase
Vet abilities
??Faster Shooting??? (and if so by how much? just a very approximate value is all that is necessary)
-
I think his vet abilities and cloak speed is what really gives him that high cost. IDK what vet grants him though (increased health?)
-
Not sure, but those alone make him a worthwhile unit. IIRC, he cloaks much quicker after firing and can also infiltrate, like Fallschirmjägers and Partisans.
-
agreed. btw burro, i love your new signature pic ;)
-
Encounter an annoying problem in EF (just something i dont get)
Why is the ZU 76 range longer then a tiger tank or jagdpanther? (No, i dont know much about ZU-76)
Imo its quite ridiclous seeing my tiger tank or jagdpanther getting slaughered by the zu 76 cause their shooting mad far away :S
-
Well the SU 76 always had a large range. Tiger has one of the least ranges ingame to begin with. Jagdpanther has good range like the panther tanks, but maybe the SU76 was a few meters back to be able to fire. You can compare the SU 76 to a marder, but the SU 76 has lesser range by quite a bit.
-
ZiS-3 was a field gun, not a howitzer, it could be used for both AT and indirect fire roles but it was mostly used for AT. SU-76 role is accurate, it was a multi-purpose vehicle... support gun, indirect fire and Anti-Tank. Obviously, it can't have an indirect fire mode for gameplay reasons.
Actually the SU-76 has arty fire mode in CoH2. It's easily the most troll thing I've ever seen in CoH.
-
Well, since this thread is about the SU-76, figured i'd as ask a question. Is anything going to be done about the SU-76s size? ??? You could close up the top with canvas and shut the drivers hatch, that would remove the giant people problem i think ;D
Since its huge atm, bigger than a KV :o don't really use it because of that, looks really strange.
(but hey, the Hellcat got the same problems, thats also huge, but since people are übermensch in coh, 2 meters tall and everything, it needs to be big.)
-
So why is the game gonna force me to build Marders or Geschutswagens to be able to have same range as the 76 since thats like the only tank AI builds, they build like 1 t34 or those small tanks.
-
Well, since this thread is about the SU-76, figured i'd as ask a question. Is anything going to be done about the SU-76s size? ??? You could close up the top with canvas and shut the drivers hatch, that would remove the giant people problem i think ;D
Since its huge atm, bigger than a KV :o don't really use it because of that, looks really strange.
(but hey, the Hellcat got the same problems, thats also huge, but since people are übermensch in coh, 2 meters tall and everything, it needs to be big.)
DMz's been working on it I believe, a resized version has been on the cards for a good while now.
-
I know it's probably for gameplay reasons, but I was just wondering why it was decided to make the SU-76 like a tank destroyer. As far as I know, it was equipped with a ZiS 3 howitzer designed for close infantry support like a StuG. It wasn't that bad against tanks but its main intended role was an assault gun to take out infantry and soft strong points so I was just wondering why it was chosen to be a tank destroyer type vehicle.
While it was designed more as a mobile field gun, it was used as a tank destroyer too, since it basically had the same gun as the t-34/76. heres a quote from the memoir of a commander of an SU-76
"The same day we were instructed how to engage Tigers. 2 SPs work together. One SP opens fire, and, backing up, serves as bait for a Tiger. When the Tiger has his side exposed, the second SP opens on him at 300m or less. The trick was so simple!"
and they were used against little things which proved to be a problem as well
"There was an 8-wheeled German gun-armed armoured car at the outskirts of the village, pinning our infantry down by its fire. Lt. Karginov told me to turn the SP to the right and our second shot blew the turret off the German armoured car."
This guys memoirs were interesting, he really had a love for the su-76 and said that it was one of the easiest tanks to drive
-
no answer from a developer why their range is ridiclious and kills the big tanks faster and takes normal hits, why not make pershings as shermans and tigers or jagdpanthers as buildings to train them in if your gonna have it like this
-
They have the same range as a Marder, stop complaining.
-
Actually, they have even less range than the marder
Range comparison:
Marder and geshutzwagon: 60
57mm AT gun: 60
Firefly: 55
SU-57:50
Panther: 47.5
Jagdpanther and other supertanks: 45
Tiger and most other tanks: 40
And if you still want a justification for it being used in game the way it is compared to real life, the SU76 were not that bad against the majority of medium tanks such as the stug and panzer IV, and when supplied with tungsten cored APCR rounds (which soviets seemed to be the only country to have a decent supply of) they could take out heavy tanks at closer range, or at greater ranger when aiming at the sides
-
Maybe you should stop sending tanks to deal with self-propelled tank hunters ;D. I mean, there is a reason they are named "tank hunters".
If you spot a Marder III or a Geschützwagen as US commander, you are not going to send a Sherman to take it out right :P? Specially because no one places these units alone, so you might need infantry based AT support to defeat them. Go solo against it and you risk to being spotted by their auxiliary units or hit a mine and good bye to your tank. Or as Robo described in those memoirs, "lure them with a bait" so they go where you want, but it is likely they will fall back, because no one will send any of these units to pursue a weakened tank if you have the risk to become a sitting duck.
At least that's how I see it, but then again I'm not an expert. I find hard to believe you haven't used the Marder III or the Geschützwagen, because they work the same than the SU76.
-
Well can you guys atleast design the AI so they dont spam 10000000 SU 76 instead builds differents tanks also and not just focus on 1 tank? (No, they do not only build su 76 but 90% of the tanks they build are them) Why should i be forced to spam marders also just to have a chance?
Cause thats all Soviet does, they build 90% SU-76.
-
Well can you guys atleast design the AI so they dont spam 10000000 SU 76 instead builds differents tanks also and not just focus on 1 tank? (No, they do not only build su 76 but 90% of the tanks they build are them) Why should i be forced to spam marders also just to have a chance?
Cause thats all Soviet does, they build 90% SU-76.
Well that is something we can change
-
Awesome if you want i can provide videos with that record replay thing or screenshots if you want and you can see how much su-76 they build, also what is the su-76 enemy (if i am to use that word) What is the thing that they are worst to defend themself at? Infantry or some special tank also? I would love to know some tips instead of spam attacking them with all kinds of shit at onces :) I guess everything in this mod has something its bad to defend itself at?
-
Well, they have horrible accuracy against infantry and basically no splash damage, so any type of infantry AT will work against it. they are also outranged by AT guns as well.
They have weak armor and their turning speed is rather poor, so it is possible to run circles around an unsupported one with fast vehicles, like a hotchkiss h35 or upgunned puma.
If the enemy is also used combined arms and supporting their SU-76 with infantry and other tanks, arty is also an option, and so is using combined arms yourself (like an AT gun or marder supported by infantry.) Also if you are using a long ranged weapon to try and kill it, make sure you have a unit to spot for it, that way you can use range to your advantage
-
Thanks for your reply, gonna use those tips well :)
-
What is the Jagdpanther designed for in this game? Can a developer please answer me this? As tank destroyer or infantry?
And what range does it have compared to su-76 since jagdpanther is a tank destroyer aswell?
-
It's a Tank destroyer, although I'm not sure of it's specific in game attributes.
-
AFAIK the Jagdpanther has crappy accuracy against infantry(at least from my experience long time ago) and it comes from the Tank Destroyer Tactics tree, I'd say it is tank destroyer. Do not misunderstand me, there could be a chance Relic could though of making JP a bit good vs infantry regardless of the way it comes.
Robotnik already posted a comparison like 10 posts above:
Actually, they have even less range than the marder
Range comparison:
Marder and geshutzwagon: 60
57mm AT gun: 60
Firefly: 55
SU-57:50
Panther: 47.5
Jagdpanther and other supertanks: 45
Tiger and most other tanks: 40
And if you still want a justification for it being used in game the way it is compared to real life, the SU76 were not that bad against the majority of medium tanks such as the stug and panzer IV, and when supplied with tungsten cored APCR rounds (which soviets seemed to be the only country to have a decent supply of) they could take out heavy tanks at closer range, or at greater ranger when aiming at the sides
-
Hmm ok, yeah i was thinkin much about this
-
Yes, the jagdpanther is definitely suited for use as a tank destroyer.
It has very poor accuracy against infantry, and it has basically no splash damage.
-
While were at it how was the range differences irl?
-
well, if you are talking about effective range (assuming each gun was used in direct fire and not indirect like a howitzer), the 88 used on the jagdpanther had great enough accuracy to be effective out to about 3000m. The 76mm on the SU-76 was effective to about 2200m. While they probably shoot farther than that, doing so meant much less accuracy and was generally considered as wasting ammo.
If your talking about effectiveness against tanks, thats an entirely different story. genrally tanks were never enganged at more than 2000m, since penetration was not that great. normal combat range against tanks was around 1000 to 1500m
Armor penetration at 2000m
76mm on the SU-76 = 48mm using APBC ammo against armor at 0°
88mm used on the jagdpanther = 132mm using APCBC ammo against armor at 30°
-
so why does the jagd have a shorter range then the su in the game?
sorry if i have missed how realistic you guys wanted to be with this mod since im kinda new to this mod :)
also correct me if i am wrong, but the panther had a 7,5 mm so why did they have longer range then a gun that is longer? sorry again, i am just wondering not saying you guys are making mistakes or anything just wondering since i am new to this mod :) i am just curious :)
-
Well, the panther has a longer barrel on its 75mm, whichs means greater velocity and thus, more range ;D
ingame though, i guess is bacause the marder/su-76 tanks have crap armour, so they need to stay far away to survive battles, the jagdpanther on the other hand has beastly armour, and its range is still good.
although i was suprised how much shorter the JPs range is compared to the marder.
-
Well, its for balance reasons. who would use the SU-76 if it had to go up close to tanks to do damage, since it has very weak armor. remember, balance > realism, meaning we prefer balanced gameplay over realism
also, the bigger the bore of a gun doesnt always mean better penetration. the panther (75mm) and 17 pounder (76mm) both have way better performance than the shermans (75mm) or SU-76(76mm) gun IRL because their shells packed a lot more propellent into their casings. the length of the barrel also helps to, as it allows the propellant to burn all the way
in the picture below, the one all the way on the right is the ammo used by the panther, while the one to the left of it is the ammo used by the panzer IV. as you can see, it packs more propellant
(http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo161/robotnikman/tankgervsuk1.jpg)
-
ok cool :) have you ever thought of having lessons in history for people? :)
-
I was thinking of making history my major at my university :) because i love reading about it. Unfortunately there are not many jobs out there for historians so i went with Computer science instead (which is my other favorite thing)
If you want to know more just post a thread with questions in this section
http://www.easternfront.org/forums/index.php?board=7.0
perhaps maybe we can have a general questions on WWII thread
-
I think that the model of su76 is too big.It has the same underpan as T-70 in real world,but in game it is much bigger than t-70.Almost the same size as t-34
-
I think that the model of su76 is too big.It has the same underpan as T-70 in real world,but in game it is much bigger than t-70.Almost the same size as t-34
Dont worry, we are working on a new model :)
-
Oh good,I would appreciate it.EF is an excellent mod,it has improved AI a lot while the AI's hitpoint isnt cheating(its unit has the same hitpoint as player's,only more manpower).It is challenging and exciting to play with the expert AI,I loss many times.