Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: bopokippo on February 25, 2012, 12:05:59 AM
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Ok I'm just trying to say that veterancy for units is really lackluster compared to U.S.
I understand that maybe it should be a little weaker because of the Command Squad bonuses (btw what bonuses do these exactly give for each defensive or offensive vet?), but I still feel that for some units like conscripts, that things like vet 3 should really be good considering how difficult it is to get vet as them. Just slightly better veterancy would be great for me.
On a side note ;D, I got vet 3 conscripts today for the first time. It was a 4v4 compstomp with all experts and I only made a conscript, command squad, sniper ace, and KV-2. The Command squad got vet 3 offensive and my conscripts got an amazing 35 kills (full rifles). They got helped by some molotovs and combined with the (45 kills) command squad with off. vet 3, the full rifles demolished volks and grens. The sniper ace got 70 kills. :)
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Originally conscripts were not suppose to recieve vet (the scary days of 1.5 :P) so the fact they have vet now is suppose to be a plus. However I too have no idea what the vet for SU units are. Its never really explained anywhere. IMO there should be a specific, locked page for it :P
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eh my info was from the patch notes 1.6 page on the changed veterancy notes so that's that but yeah, agreed. Some list should be there. However, from the Command Squad Vet and weak individual unit vet, it encourages relative blobbing and makes it hard to spread out (like the vetted riflemen which can cap like no end and are strong individually, especially with nades and BARs). I mean, vet 1 conscripts get like a reduction in reinforcement? It seems really weak.
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The veterancy for CS doesnt encourage blobbing :P. Its a GLOBAL veterancy effect, so no matter where you are in the battlefield, you recieve tha bonus. Its like Wehr vet. Always applies to your troops, so long as the CS is alive :P
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WOW!!! :O I never knew that! I thought it was like lieutenants
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if of course you can vet up your CS. which i personally try and fail.
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Not only do Soviets have a little weaker vet than US, they get it quite a bit faster too. You'll have more vet3 squads running around than a US player would.
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What receive other armies ( bonus ) for the level of CS? ???
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As far as I know the CS veterancy only affects your own units, not allied units.
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As far as I know the CS veterancy only affects your own units, not allied units.
What receive my armies ( bonus ) for the level of CS? (sorry) ::)
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Each level in offensive: +10% dmg, each level in defensive: -10% received damage. However, I havent found the values in Corsix, this is from my memory and I dont claim to be right on this.
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Not only do Soviets have a little weaker vet than US, they get it quite a bit faster too. You'll have more vet3 squads running around than a US player would. And are you sure they get it faster? because my conscripts hit vet 2 at 15 kills and vet 3 at 30, which seems average for a riflemen squad.
Are you sure? Maybe its fine for red-banner-strelky and guards, but conscripts I feel could really use a buff in veterancy, considering how fast they die usually.
Each level in offensive: +10% dmg, each level in defensive: -10% received damage. However, I havent found the values in Corsix, this is from my memory and I dont claim to be right on this.
Hmm... Seems a bit weak. Was expecting more of something like PE veterancy.
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Are you kidding? 10% plus in off or def is huge once it starts stacking up with other veterancy :P. I honestly dont know any veterancy bonuses for SU units but lets take Conscripts for example. At veterancy 3 they get like +20% to attack efficiency (something like that). Add that to 7 rifles from FTML and a additional +20% from say the CS and you are looking at a total of +40% offensive bonus with 7 rifles :o. And they are cheap to reinforce.
That also means your vanilla units can reciee a additional +30% to any region. And then some (for example, RBS)
PE vet IMO gives you a small bonus but for serveral regions. CS vet gives you a large bonus but for one region.
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CS vet 1 also unlocks the heroic charge ability, the CS Artystrike and grants a bonus on you manpower upkeep. Getting veterancy on your CS is really powerful, you should always try to get him to high vet levels.
The values are multiplied with each other, means individual bonuses become even stronger when combined with CS vet. They also make most your units quite a huge bit tougher.
You'll notice the quite huge difference between dual def vet Shock Guards and Guards without command vet bonus.
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Conscripts shouldn't be the main stay of your army in the late game anyway.
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CS vet grants a offensive (5% more accuracy) or defensive (5% less received accuracy) bonus. Its all about accuracy not damage.
Dunno the exact values for upkeep reduction per vet level but afaik its 15%.
Remember: Every buff for conscripts makes strelky less attractive.
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Remember: Every buff for conscripts makes strelky less attractive.
Especially this. Why the hell would you pay more for strelky whom also can carry 7 rifles if you just buff the hell out of conscripts?
There's no need for a change I feel. If you get vet 3 on Conscripts you're just a lucky guy.
It's like trying to get vet on a jeep in the late game where there are panthers and tanks going everywhere. Why? What are you going to do kill the panther with a jeep? It's just not practical.
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Conscripts gain no combat bonuses from vet IIRC and it'll stay that way. Instead, they become cheaper and better at capping etc. to help them scale a little bit in a fodder/capper role lategame. For main infantry you should be switching to Strelky.
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So the CS vet will make squads 15% better accuracy/received accuracy at vet 3? ???
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Not necessarily. It not added. It multiplicative.
So 105% of 100 is 105
105% of 105 is 110.25
105% of 110.25% is 115.8
Therefore a 15.8% increase
So there is slightly more accuracy. Not a huge amount but still
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To be honest what squads get from with vet 3 compared to USA is a bit UP if you ask me. 20% more damage is nothing to the Riflemen's 50% along with all the other accuracy bonuses it has. Considering the 15.8% more accuracy still id rather have the Vet3 Riflemen vet than global vet and a vet3 Soviet squad. With the supply upgrades and barracks upgrades BAR riflemen can get their vet not much longer than the soviets can and are somewhat better. Vet 3 Bar riflemen can take on vet 3 Knights Cross or even vet 3 dual STG44 upgrades if in cover. I cant think of any other vet 3 Soviet unit even with a vet 3 Command Squad who's vet is that powerful other than the unsuppressable vet 3 Russian Guards.
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You must realize rifles are the USA's ONLY non doctrinal infantry. SU has access to Guards which ROFLPWN everything up to vet 3 Storms and KCH.
And AFAIK vet 3 rifleman squad will lose to vet 3 KCH unless the rifles surpress them and nade them to death. But even then KCH have assault which breaks it. IDK what gave you the notion they would win. Especially if FTFL or IA activates.
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Try to get a vet 3 BAR riflemen squad and see how much it rapes vet 3 grendiers/Volks or kch and you will never underestimate them again, just keep them stationary vs kch. No really, at vet 3 they have 55% more accuracy and 50% more damage for their offensive compared to when they first started off not including the BARs which increase the squads fire power by another 50%. The last thing you want is for them to pick up a Schreck.
Note all other infantry, airborne, rangers, engineers, etc have a 50% bonus to damage at vet 3. Don't even get me started on how veterancy 3 thompson rangers kill everything (although they are very rare since they don't get veterancy reduction requirements that BARs give to riflemen and don't kill tanks that easily like airborne).
You know what I should do? Soviet vs USA. Using NHC mod and see how vet 3 riflemen or rangers stand up to vetted soviet infantry :P. unfortunately there is a bug in which if I do this soviets get 2x more manpower rate (500+). Or 3 vet 3 Lieutants Brit blob vs soviet blob ;D. This will be stupid but very interesting.
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You can do that already in EF by using automatch.
Vet3 rifles are indeed awesome but Soviets have MUCH lower requirements. This changes by endgame for US of course but Soviets also have a heap of global upgrades and CS vet to keep them going. Also, Soviets were never designed as a quality infantry faction like US. They have spam infantry that is economical and then they tech to their excellent tanks.
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You can do that already in EF by using automatch.
Vet3 rifles are indeed awesome but Soviets have MUCH lower requirements. This changes by endgame for US of course but Soviets also have a heap of global upgrades and CS vet to keep them going. Also, Soviets were never designed as a quality infantry faction like US. They have spam infantry that is economical and then they tech to their excellent tanks.
I think I am using the Soviets the wrong way all this time them :( . Almost never made T34s hehe or used the tank depot at all unless it is really late game. I usually just spammed either stormovie engineers or PPSH Strelky and relied on the AI to lend me his paks right after I decreed them. :D
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Try to get a vet 3 BAR riflemen squad and see how much it rapes vet 3 grendiers/Volks or kch and you will never underestimate them again
No one said vet 3 rifles sucked. I just don't think they can beat vet3 KCH. KCH are powerful too you know.
And tbh if you're fighting AI all you need to do is spam certain SU units :P. Like Sturmovie
And pitting US vs SU is not a true test of balance. The two factions work and perform differently. Its like COH mirror matches. They don't test balance.
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As I stated above, try out yourself and you will know who the winner is ;). Also US is backwards for SU I just noticed that. I almost always play against the AI on this mod because I can't seem to find anyone who isn't multiplayer compstomping or doing a 1v1.
Anyways, I am not testing for balance, just for the fun of it. Inenery vs Engineers or conscripts vs riflemen, stumovie vs up-gunned rangers, etc. Just screwing around with the EF mod. :P
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I have tried it. Thats why I know. But in a larger fight with more than just 1 lone rifle squad and 1 lone KCH. Most of the time it won't JUST be those two head on. I play COH to you know :P. I don't just read statistics.
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Try to get a vet 3 BAR riflemen squad and see how much it rapes vet 3 grendiers/Volks or kch and you will never underestimate them again
No one said vet 3 rifles sucked. I just don't think they can beat vet3 KCH. KCH are powerful too you know.
Afaik even vet 2 riflemen already beat up vet 3 kch quite easily. USA vet >>> Wehr vet in terms of power. Balanced by the fast that USA needs to earn it by fighting.
However, what you guys are forgetting is: Soviet smgs and rifles deal higher base damage in general, and are much better on all ranges than US rifles, so even if soviets get weaker veterancy boni they're still on par USA vet.
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@ Fish, your math is wrong. For the most part as far as I know, veterancy like Accuracy that's multiplied stacks.
So, Accuracy [Base] x 1.05 (vet1.)
[That #] x 1.05
and so on (afaik).
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So then what's the health/accuracy bonus for a vet 3 defensive/offensive command squad? I'm confused ??? ??? :-\
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15.76%