Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Strategy and Tactics => Strategy and Tactics for Americans => Topic started by: Monos on February 27, 2012, 07:58:26 PM
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I did it again, i tried to go airborne and OMG i lost soo hard because AirBorne are shitty and overprised.
Their don't do shit against infantry, they die like flies, they often die before they hit the ground if there is any superduperranged AA you didn't look for nearby. AND! Their Recoilless rifles have 10% accuracy.
They get two of the suckers and they hit once every 10 times. I'm serious, it takes 10 shots for them to hit anything... ONCE.
My opponent vehicle spammed T3 units, so i got AT-guns and Airborne. Darn riflemen does more dmg with sticky bombs, atleast the sticky hits and is more worth the ammunition.
Infantry gives you rangers who are the heroes of the American army, they are strong vs infantry and vehicles and they don't die so darn fast.
The only usefull thing with airborne is their sathel charges, which is too weak to destroy a bunker. And recoilless rifles does so little dmg and almost never hits the bunker so what is their purpose? Behind enemy lines opperations? They got killed by VET 3 pioneer squad that defended the 16ammo on semois.
I now know the reason why i never see these guys used in any shoutcasts nor replays with americans.
Only way to beat early puma + Pak strategy when you go fast bars is rangers + Riflemen. Airborne is the worst infantry in the game.
"Fire up so usefull for flanking"
Like those idiots will ever kill anything after you have flanked, un-upgraded volks beat them easily close up. Stupid useless bullshit.
Tip for total newcommers @ coh:
Want to play americans and take over teritory behind enemy lines?
GO ARMOR, choose raid and take over territory early with your jeep.
What about airborne you ask? They die faster than the jeep, so they are not worth it... NEVER
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Strange to read this...Airborne giga-blob is a very widespread tactic of USA players, due to the strenght of Paratroops vs veichles and inf.
You play against Human or AI?
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trololol?
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All what you say may be, but what would EF do against it? Nothing, because we decided not to change vanilla gameplay.
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This ain't suggestion forum, this is strategy section. Strategy is, do not choose them.
You play against Human or AI? Does playing a test game vs AI with airborne affect their accuracy in any way?
I almost allways go infantry doc.
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maybe you use them wrong.
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Maybe we can get an advice from an experienced player that has used plenty of times this doctrine? (Waiting for it...)
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maybe you use them wrong.
You mean like PIATS that get more accurate when in buildings? So i should place them in specific cover for bonus hit chance?
Actually PIAT's on the airborne would be more usefull since i stickied and destroyed engine\imobilized the fast PUMAS before hitting them with the recoilless. To bad my 3 squads of airborne had to be retreated at 1man left before they had hit the imobilized PUMA once. Thats 6 RR's total =P
Maybe we can get an advice from an experienced player that has used plenty of times this doctrine? (Waiting for it...)
Second that.
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IMHO using RRs to hunt pumas is not a good choice, because of the "phase-in" bug(I think that's how it is called). You should use them vs tanks.
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I did it again, i tried to go airborne and OMG i lost soo hard because AirBorne are shitty and overprised.
Their don't do shit against infantry, they die like flies, they often die before they hit the ground if there is any superduperranged AA you didn't look for nearby. AND! Their Recoilless rifles have 10% accuracy.
They get two of the suckers and they hit once every 10 times. I'm serious, it takes 10 shots for them to hit anything... ONCE.
My opponent vehicle spammed T3 units, so i got AT-guns and Airborne. Darn riflemen does more dmg with sticky bombs, atleast the sticky hits and is more worth the ammunition.
Infantry gives you rangers who are the heroes of the American army, they are strong vs infantry and vehicles and they don't die so darn fast.
The only usefull thing with airborne is their sathel charges, which is too weak to destroy a bunker. And recoilless rifles does so little dmg and almost never hits the bunker so what is their purpose? Behind enemy lines opperations? They got killed by VET 3 pioneer squad that defended the 16ammo on semois.
I now know the reason why i never see these guys used in any shoutcasts nor replays with americans.
Only way to beat early puma + Pak strategy when you go fast bars is rangers + Riflemen. Airborne is the worst infantry in the game.
"Fire up so usefull for flanking"
Like those idiots will ever kill anything after you have flanked, un-upgraded volks beat them easily close up. Stupid useless bullshit.
Tip for total newcommers @ coh:
Want to play americans and take over teritory behind enemy lines?
GO ARMOR, choose raid and take over territory early with your jeep.
What about airborne you ask? They die faster than the jeep, so they are not worth it... NEVER
Yea I go airborne often. You're definitely using them wrong.
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IMHO using RRs to hunt pumas is not a good choice, because of the "phase-in" bug(I think that's how it is called). You should use them vs tanks.
So thats what up with the RR, a BUG. No wonder shit don't work. So Airborne = Go fast Motorpool or die?
Yea I go airborne often. You're definitely using them wrong.
Enlighten us with your wisdom.
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Airborne infantry have Airborne Armor, meaning that on the move they have a .75 recieved accuracy modifier. Their M1 Carbines also have the smallest moving accuracy penalty, meaning that on the move the troops lose accuracy the least of all American weapons.
That said, the Carbines are also the weakest of the 3 common American rifles because of it's range modifiers and other factors. (BAR> Garand> Carbine)
Because of this, you are correct Airborne suck against infantry. Not sure why you're intending them to be used like that.
HOWEVER,
Airborne should NEVER, EVER be the main stay of your army. They should support troops for your Riflemen regiments or for your WSC units with Flame Engineer support, you need some sort of better anti-infantry dominance to be able to use the Airborne efficiently.
Use Airborne as dedicated AT squads, like Rangers. The two are similar in that they have large upkeep and cost (Which is why they should NEVER be your main army) but have well-to-do anti-tank weapons and are similar in that they have the Fire-up and grenade capabilities.
Their differences are that Airborne can be called in anywhere, and can be reinforced anywhere. While fighting behind enemy lines (IE You call them in and you lose a couple guys) if you noticeably win an engagement then you can reinforce on the spot. Their Satchels are nice at destroying or at least weakening bunkers for a final blow and if MGs are your issue you can use Fire-Up to flank around it quickly and lob a grenade in there to try and decrew it. Your other infantry, supposedly pinned, will be able to assist you in moments.
Now for RRs. I don't even know where you got that stupid "lol 10%" figure but I can assure you RRs are fine. Perhaps you should try to focus fire and stop your squad before firing as most heavier weapons are more accurate when still in COH. It's just the way it works.
Compare them to Bazookas, for instance. Both have similar-ish accuracies (RR Comes out on top IIRC), however Bazookas deal more damage while RRs deal much more penetration. This makes RRs very effective at dealing with tanks that have lower health and better armor. The only exception really is the Puma which has the phase-bug, but I don't even see it all too often anymore. It still has plenty good capability to kill the Puma or AC as long as you don't charge at it like a moron and use cover to your advantage.
Of course a freaking vet 3 flaming pio squad is going to kill your airborne. Vet 3 Pios have Elite armor, health regeneration, he was likely in cover, and you must not have been paying attention. IIRC Airborne armor is in the same as Elite armor and takes more damage from flames. Not to mention Airborne are not good against infantry as stated above.
If you see an AA Vehicle or emplacement (Flak 38, Whirlbel, Puma, Ostwind) Why the hell are you calling in airborne ANYWHERE near it? ??? They are helpless while dropping so those tanks can just fire away as they drop. If you visibly see weapons like this then call them in somewhere more convenient.
Airborne are just as useful as Rangers I feel. Neither can be used as a main force of an army primarily because of reinforce cost and upkeep, along with the fact that rangers are suspectible to snipers and fire, and airborne offer more tactical use but do not fare so well against infantry. Use BAR Riflemen to help support your airborne and use the airborne to lob grenades, decrew MGs in both buildings and bunkers, disrupt capping operations and offer decent counters to vehicles.
If you really want to preserve your airborne RR troops build a Triage Center
TL;DR:
Airborne are weak unsupported as they are not viable against infantry. Build a triage center, and PAY ATTENTION to their health.
Keep them supported! Use BAR Rifles or combine arms help from WSC units and flame engineers.
Use the Fire-up and Satchels to your advantage to flank around weapons teams and make short work of enemy units garrisoned.
Call them in at strat points to help cut off enemy supply lines. They can be called in and reinforced anywhere.
Use their RRs to make short work of vehicles and tanks. Work well against most tanks except maybe the KT. Still a threat to Tigers. Sure they're expensive but if you're not looking to tech to 57mms or Hellcats it's what you have to do.
NEVER EVER CALL THEM IN NEAR AA WEAPONS.
Suggestion: Use Rifle Stickies to stop a vehicle cold and finish it off with RRs at range in cover. Works well against Pumas and vehicles of the like.
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About AA, you don't allways know if it's buildt. =P
Btw, The PIOs did also shoot them before they landed, i didn't know they was there though. They were non flamer on their way to cap the point IIRC, could have had flamers though.
Triage center was up to heal mah snipahman, vet 3 sucka.
I faced almost exclusively PUMAs and used as said earlier (because they suck against inf) the airborne for AT, and mainly had them in Yellow cover. Still they almost never hit, and when they did the PUMA lost about 20% hp, meaning you need 5 hits if you get fucked over by the 5% bug. Through the whole game i hit the PUMAs a total of twice. Destroying none of them, or i did destroy some but that was with M10's i made after my Airborne had got roflstomped in 4 engagements.
Rifles will allways be the main of the army, they rock at Anti-inf and at some vet they throw sticky's far so your AT can get in. But using airborne as AT ain't working for me the same way as Rangers. Not even close.
Sticky'd puma still didn't drop. So that did not help, and rumor on the forums is that this Phase-Bug is crazy ass deadly.
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I got this from a CoH:O guide for Airborne, but still applies for CoH:
They are[squad of paratroops] very useful against bunkers. One satchel charge doesn't quite destroy a bunker, so you'll need to shoot it first with your recoilless rifles once or twice. Do not attempt to throw satchel charges at bunkers with MGs inside them, if the MG is firing at you! Paratroopers in fire up mode are unable to retreat for about 10 seconds after throwing a satchel charge, leading to them being cut down by the mg before the satchel goes off - or by any supporting units afterwards.
Note also that airborne troops are NOT a counter to puma armour cars - recoilless rifles will mostly just "phase through" pumas, causing no damage.
Where paratroops shine is knocking out damaged tanks, and supporting your own. They have the best infantry anti-tank weapon in the game, with the longest range. With fire up, you can chase down wounded tanks and finish them without the risk that using your own tanks to do this incurs.
Source (http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?showtopic=691174), I know it is kind of outdated but still :P.
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You know the last time you were here we told you about the "phase through" bug that RR suffer from. I think you need to revise your strategy, not de-fame the Airborne doctrine. Even if Paratroopers do suck (which they kinda do :P) there are still 5 other abilities you can choose from. There will always be abilities in a doctrine that aren't really useful and are semi-situational. Airborne are situation in that they are (kinda) good flankers and okay AT. Use nades (if you have it upgraded or the muni) as they are pretty powerful. And you can drop them behind lines to flank or decap and harass. And as Cranial said, they are good vs damaged tanks as they are usually guaranteed to penetrate, meaning you can finish off a tank.
You play against Human or AI? Does playing a test game vs AI with airborne affect their accuracy in any way?
I almost allways go infantry doc.
It doesn't matter whether its Human or AI, the stats will still be the same. It kinda sounds like you play vs comp.
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There IS an explanation about that in the official CoH forum, something about scatter and how bazookas are better against vehicles and RRs against tanks, something like "bazookas have high scatter, so if they miss the hit roll, they still have a chance to hit, unlike RRs that don't benefit from that, if they miss they freakin' miss."
Puma's buggy hitbox had something to do with that too, but I don' t remember the details, but it translated to:
Use rangers against vehicles, and to help destroy really weakened tanks. (Alternatively, bumrush infantry with thompsons)
Use paras to harass points, flank weapon teams, and engage bunkers and tanks with little AI capabilities (a.k.a. StuGs and Panthers)
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You know the last time you were here we told you about the "phase through" bug that RR suffer from. I think you need to revise your strategy, not de-fame the Airborne doctrine. Even if Paratroopers do suck (which they kinda do :P) there are still 5 other abilities you can choose from. There will always be abilities in a doctrine that aren't really useful and are semi-situational. Airborne are situation in that they are (kinda) good flankers and okay AT. Use nades (if you have it upgraded or the muni) as they are pretty powerful. And you can drop them behind lines to flank or decap and harass. And as Cranial said, they are good vs damaged tanks as they are usually guaranteed to penetrate, meaning you can finish off a tank.
You play against Human or AI? Does playing a test game vs AI with airborne affect their accuracy in any way?
I almost allways go infantry doc.
It doesn't matter whether its Human or AI, the stats will still be the same. It kinda sounds like you play vs comp.
Worst ability in that doctrine is the Paradrop AT Gun, next is the Bombing run.
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Their recoilless rifles are almost litteraly automatic? They reload in like 2 secs and are DEVASTATING against light/ medium vechicles ?
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RRs are the best infantry AT weapon in the game IMO. They have very good accuracy and penetration.
In my opinion, the phase bug isn't a bug but a balance design put in so that the low-scatter RRs don't completely dominate Pumas. Indeed, zooks are generally better against Pumas.
Airborne suck at AI until they pick up a few weapons. Get them some BARs or even an LMG42 and they will destroy, especially with the potent US veterancy (which they gain quickly when killing tanks). Use nades against weapon crews and satchels against Paks, flaks and bunkers.
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RRs are the best infantry AT weapon in the game IMO. They have very good accuracy and penetration.
In my opinion, the phase bug isn't a bug but a balance design put in so that the low-scatter RRs don't completely dominate Pumas. Indeed, zooks are generally better against Pumas.
Airborne suck at AI until they pick up a few weapons. Get them some BARs or even an LMG42 and they will destroy, especially with the potent US veterancy (which they gain quickly when killing tanks). Use nades against weapon crews and satchels against Paks, flaks and bunkers.
Mostly what I said except in a nutshell :P
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Worst ability in that doctrine is the Paradrop AT Gun, next is the Bombing run.
Why do you say that ??? I thought AT gun drop was good against quick armor. And you can reinforce it in the field.
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Worst ability in that doctrine is the Paradrop AT Gun, next is the Bombing run.
Why do you say that ??? I thought AT gun drop was good against quick armor. And you can reinforce it in the field.
It's way overpriced. You can build a ground one for much cheaper and while it's dropping it's a complete liability. What if he rushes in a puma real quick? Bye bye ATG.
Bombing run isnt that bad its just that it's the least useful of the three on the RHS. The recon run can reveal paks and other cloaked stuff, and strafe is just loltastic if you don't see a med bunker. Bomb run is pretty pricey.
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Also, the RR is WAAAY better than the Bazooka against the T - 34
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Yes, Airborne = Useless. Play soviets instead :D
rofl
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Worst ability in that doctrine is the Paradrop AT Gun, next is the Bombing run.
Really?
AT-gun-drop is the only thing to use against Puma without fast motorpool with airborne. So i expected it to be very usefull.
Seen some really good bombingruns, those are powerfull but 250ammo.. Damn...
Yes, Airborne = Useless. Play soviets instead :D
rofl
Good idea! I'll win then =D
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Worst ability in that doctrine is the Paradrop AT Gun, next is the Bombing run.
Really?
AT-gun-drop is the only thing to use against Puma without fast motorpool with airborne. So i expected it to be very usefull.
Seen some really good bombingruns, those are powerfull but 250ammo.. Damn...
Yes, Airborne = Useless. Play soviets instead :D
rofl
Good idea! I'll win then =D
And that's the problem. It takes about 10-15 seconds for the ATG to drop, land, gather, and lock the gun down, and if a Puma rushes in it can target them even while they fall, and might just circle the poor thing. It's a huge manpower investment to reinforce too.
RRs are by far one of the best AT weapons in game.
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And that's the problem. It takes about 10-15 seconds for the ATG to drop, land, gather, and lock the gun down, and if a Puma rushes in it can target them even while they fall, and might just circle the poor thing. It's a huge manpower investment to reinforce too.
RRs are by far one of the best AT weapons in game.
So fast MotorPool is only way to go with airborne?
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No, fast TD is also an option. A Sherman with RR support will stomp anything that comes out of Wehr T3.
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No, fast TD is also an option. A Sherman with RR support will stomp anything that comes out of Wehr T3.
But it's 90+50+80? fuel to get it :-\
Even if you drop bars, will it be fast enuff?
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Yes, if you get a map advantage and/or OP on a good fuel point (semois etc.) then it's actually very easy to do.
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How do you get map advantage against MP40's without Bars and just afjew rifles? =P
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U CANT WIN AXIS ITS
(http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6632/memeimpossibru.jpg)
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;D haha
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this thread has evolved too fast, so i wont really try to adress everthing, but airbourne support is a great command tree, and also, IMO one of the most fun. strafing run is extremely effective against blobbing PG's, and any other infantry. also you dont need map control because you get paradrops.
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i love airborne, they are highly useful against wehr or PE players with recoiless rifles. For anti infantry, get their grenade upgrade, and then get bars on your rifleman. Any bars the rifleman drop, get your airborne to pick up, then airborne become Iron Men. Also, try using satchels against slow moving heavy tanks, they are funny to see die in that fashion.
Another thing to consider is that Airborne can reinforce anywhere. So if you lose them like mad, make them sprint and find a place for them to hide an reinforce. Also, it helps greatly to get the supply yard upgrades, for it applies to airborne as well as rifleman.
Also, to wehr players, if you want to screw with airborne, get either vet 3 KCH or strom troopers, and then build Ostwinds, those will kill airborne fairly well. For PE, go Luftwaffe and counter their airborne with Fallschrmijagers and flakwerwing or Wirbelwind. Also, butterfly bombs can be used to protect choke-points and high munitions point.
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i love airborne, they are highly useful against wehr or PE players with recoiless rifles. For anti infantry, get their grenade upgrade, and then get bars on your rifleman. Any bars the rifleman drop, get your airborne to pick up, then airborne become Iron Men. Also, try using satchels against slow moving heavy tanks, they are funny to see die in that fashion.
Another thing to consider is that Airborne can reinforce anywhere. So if you lose them like mad, make them sprint and find a place for them to hide an reinforce. Also, it helps greatly to get the supply yard upgrades, for it applies to airborne as well as rifleman.
Also, to wehr players, if you want to screw with airborne, get either vet 3 KCH or strom troopers, and then build Ostwinds, those will kill airborne fairly well. For PE, go Luftwaffe and counter their airborne with Fallschrmijagers and flakwerwing or Wirbelwind. Also, butterfly bombs can be used to protect choke-points and high munitions point.
Only one problem.
RR's don't work against Pumas, and sticky spam is expensive and you need to get close. Satchel on Puma.. nah man, the dude gotta be quite non-carefull to die to that.
Thats the whole point about this thread. Me pissed because:
Rangers kill Pumas, Airborne refuses too to. Ergo you lose the game unless you go fast MP or TD.
Which means.. If you play against an amri player, go T3 if he goes fast bars and airborne.. He is chanceless if you go quick and cap all the fuel with dual or maby tripple puma =)
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where did you think that RR's dont work against pumas? they do great. also, command tree's are meant to accent your armies, not make up for them. if someone is "chanceless" because they so called picked the wrong doctrine, then this game is not balanced in the least. if you play as doctrine reliant, you should learn to not be so reliant on your dictinal pick. its more of off- map support, nothing more, nothing less. i sometimes dont even pick a doctrine because i am still undecided, and then i win the game and i say to myself "whups, didnt mean to do that." mines combined with sticky bombs shred pumas. you are correct though, i heavily doubt that any vehicle, unless immovable will die by satchel charge. the timer is just too long.
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Also, paras don't cost fuel, get an AT gun, M8 or rush to get some X-men (wolverines).
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where did you think that RR's dont work against pumas?
Phase-bug? And also excessive testing lately. They just don't hit them, ever. Or maby my game is broken but i doubt it.
Only other option for anti-puma weapon is eather fast teching, rangers or 30'Cal AP rounds. Like when you skip tier 2 with wehr when you go blitzkrieg and use stormtroops as main infantry instead of grenadiers. Doctrines do matter alot.
But you are right about one thing, maby i should wait and see what my opponent does. Fast Puma = Infantry doc.
Maps are quite large, you need alot of mines to cover every choke and only engineers can make them without infantry doc\m8.
Though mines are awesome, placing all your trust in acouple mines to make you win seems... You get the point.
Sticky's won't hit unless your really lucky. And you need 4-5 of them to destroy a PUMA. You slow it down alittle but then your squads allready at 2men, and he has his volks supporting.
Tanktraps at all chokes to enemy base is a more reliable strategy at semois. As long as they don't see you place them and kill you. Just to buy time to get AT guns and M8's ofcourse.
This is not possible on langres or angoville. Unless you try to cover the whole map.
Also, paras don't cost fuel, get an AT gun, M8 or rush to get some X-men (wolverines).
Rangers and AT guns don't cost fuel eather? Whats your point? AT-gun and M8 requires fast teching and thus little to no infantry play early on. Since you don't get infantry upgrade by just advancing to tier 2. You need upgrades which depletes your fuel and leaves you with one choice.. Use rangers or get stomped by the Puma.
LAST NOTE:
We all have agreed allready that airborne do not work against PUMA's. So is there any other way than fastteching\chosing infantry doc when you need to counter fast PUMA?
Is 30'Cal viable for PUMA hunting?
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i would doubt it. the only time i use that ability is against PE's halftracks and scout cars. its great against light vehicles, but not light tanks.
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Also, paras don't cost fuel, get an AT gun, M8 or rush to get some X-men (wolverines).
Rangers and AT guns don't cost fuel eather? Whats your point? AT-gun and M8 requires fast teching and thus little to no infantry play early on. Since you don't get infantry upgrade by just advancing to tier 2. You need upgrades which depletes your fuel and leaves you with one choice.. Use rangers or get stomped by the Puma.
Now, look here. You should never have problems with a Puma since those usually should be hitting the field at the same time as your ATs if you didn't spend everything on other things.
If you're getting stomped by a puma, you did something wrong earlier in the game, like relying solely on infantry which, funnily enough, is countered effectively by (who would have guessed?) Pumas. So my point, Monos , is that you're making a mistake somewhere down the line.
I'm guessing you get your rifles some BARs, nades and stickies as soon as you can. Don't. At most you just give them some BARs if you're dominating early game, if that's not the case, forgetting about BARs and teching to motor is practically a must. You can then upgrade stickies to help against vehicles.
As for hunting Pumas, it's been said already that mines do help a lot, so do rangers' bazookas (don't just charge rangers in though, they're infantry too you know?), besides mines, an AT gun or an M8.
And, hey, it also turns out that even if axis isn't rushing pumas, an M8 still gives excellent support to rifles against everything but paks.
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But i like to tech for snipers to countersnipe win engagements. Thats extra fuel used + bars. I usally don't get grenades and reserch sticky's if the PUMA is out before my MP. Since the wehrmacht will cap the whole map if i don't slow them down, and then it's GG.
PIATs and BRENS can take out PUMAS.. Tank-hunters destroy PUMAS and are much quicker to tech for.
Just like the Wehrmachts grenaders destroys that M8 with bazooka, same with PE.
It's only against americans you don't need to support your vehicle with nothing. You can just spam PUMA's ... Use 1 engi-squad with mine-sweeper.. And if he's M8 ain't up in time, you can fortify the perimiter with all the AT you need to counter it. THEN it's GG. Since 2 PUMAs destroy one squad of men in one volley if not unlucky.
Axis ain't forced to skip infantry upgrades to get vehicles, since they got a straight tech-line. Unfair.
Now if you go infantry tree, you don't need vehicles right away and can keep some of your mapcontrol until you tech on up. Since a puma won't rush in towards 2 rangersquads with no support and destroy them. Also when you got mines and stuff on the field and generally try to play smart you can trap the PUMA and destroy it. (unlike airborne)
But you say, WSC shouldn't be used alot, rather start going for vehicles then if i don't go infantry tree.
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You do know that snipers are not the only counter to snipers, right?
With barracks you get the, admittedly a bit weak, jeep, it works wonders against snipers, and helps a lot when flanking mgs or supporting rifles against volks. A WSC the beginning is nothing but a liability if you intend to build both it and the barracks.
Also, it's not recommended to have a wsc from the get-go unless you are on a 2v2, for the simple reason that it does not provide Amis with what they need to win in the early game, namely rifles. The usual build order is:
Barracks
Supply D.
Motor pool
If axis is too entrenched with AT guns and bunkers you can then backtech to WSC and get the now helpful and viable mortars and snipers.
While not set in stone, this is usually the ideal way to go for Amis.
Anyways, I repeat and stress, you do not fight pumas with infantry, Pumas eat and shit infantry for breakfast, your best solution is an ATg coupled with some mines and/or a M8.
Also, M8's mines can and will destroy Puma.
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I didnt read EVERYTHING but in you are right in the RR aren't so hot vs Pumas. HOWEVER you should have an M8 by this point or an AT gun from your Motor Pool so it shouldn't really matter just how great RRs are against Pumas. Unless you lost control of the map. Then thats your fault, sorry :P. Just to compare fuel cost if you teched straight for vehicles and skipped T2 wehr (so you don't think its unfair)
US: 15+50+45+30 = 140 total
Wehr: 15+35+50+50+35 = 185 total
So honestly you have no reason to think Wehr is at a fuel advantage. Even if you do get WSC you will have less fuel needs as Wehr. Just use RRs against tanks like StuG and Panther. Even Panzer IV or Ostwind if you must.
Now the AP rounds rounds for the .30 cal WILL kill it, granted it can get enough shots off. BUT it is highly unreliable and extremely situational. Chances are the Puma will just go around you and gun you down. So I recommend using mines to paralyze the Puma. Put one at a choke point or near you MG team (I've done that with AT guns and it worked ;D) to stop the Puma from circling. However this will cost a reasonable amount of muni and I suggest you do it only if you expect to be delayed with your M8.
i would doubt it. the only time i use that ability is against PE's halftracks and scout cars. its great against light vehicles, but not light tanks.
A Puma is not a tank :P. It can take bullet damage (although not alot ofc)
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Thanks for the backup, fish. ;D
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US: 15+50+45+30 = 140 total
Wehr: 15+35+50+50+35 = 185 total
Corrected your fuel cost to match Puma rush. Looks like you had a T2-T3 outlook but forgot the 50 cost to tech and 50 to build.
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A Puma is not a tank :P. It can take bullet damage (although not alot ofc)
thanks, for clearing that up fish, sorry for the confusion, its really an armored car :-[
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US: 15+50+45+30 = 140 total
Wehr: 15+35+50+50+35 = 185 total
Corrected your fuel cost to match Puma rush. Looks like you had a T2-T3 outlook but forgot the 50 cost to tech and 50 to build.
TY for that fix Cranial ;). And that brings up another point. If your opponent get Pumas and M8s are already running around like a pain in the ass he will surely get 75mm upgrade to halt any further M8s. Which means they will be ALOT more ineffective vs Paras and you might simply be able to walk past it since it cant hit you anyways :P
A Puma is not a tank :P. It can take bullet damage (although not alot ofc)
thanks, for clearing that up fish, sorry for the confusion, its really an armored car :-[
NP ;)
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Puma: 35(skirmish)+50(assault)+35(sturm)+35(puma)=155
ATG: 95FU
M8: 120FU
M10: 195
If you have a little bit of map control, just go for an M10 which will fuck up any pumas. From there just build Shermans and RRs as necessary.
Never go WSC start in a 1v1 IMO. If you're keen on Snipers then go 2-3 rifles, WSC.
The phase bug has been overstated in this thread a little. RRs still counter Pumas, just not as well as zooks. They're vastly better against all tanks though. Airborne + fast TD is doom for Ami T3 IMO. Strafe will smash volks, Sherman will smash all except Stugs, RRs will dominate Stugs. Just work on having a good early/midgame and get some map control. Maybe OP a fuel point if you can find a good one. An example might be the one outside your base on Semois, or the main fuel on Sturz. Make sure you are harassing his fuel if you see lots of MP40 volks and assume a T3 rush.
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well put. this pretty much sums it up.
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I suggest getting the Hellcat rather then the M10. From what I hear there is still some "misfire" bug that I still dont understand. Also they have a MG to help stop Volks + suppres them to be run over ;D. But it wont really suppress them :P. Two will I think :P
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Yeah Hellcats are much better. Misfire bug (or burp bug) is where the M10 goes to shoot but the turret turns, LOS is blocked, you move too fast past the target etc. The gun will still shoot out smoke from the gun and will enter the reload cycle (you can't shoot again until it reloads) but the gun never actually fires. Lots of other weapons in the game do a similar thing, like the Soviet T70, and will constantly fire until they can ACTUALLY fire on the target. That way it looks like they're rapid firing. However, due to the fact the M10 firing animation is tied in (because it's open topped), it has to start the reload cycle even if it didn't fire properly.
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I never start WSC, but i like getting support weapons to play with. Even mortars are really nice to have to avoid to much sneaky capping.
35(skirmish)+50(assault)+35(sturm)+35(puma)=155Fuel still with Mp40's
US: 15+(60)+50+45+30 = 200 total if you want Bars.
Guess your right though, the allies can rush vehicles really fast.
I also know that jeeps are good for recon and sniperhunting. But they fall off their game when Panzerfaust and such get's on the field. Sniper is not affected by that =P
The phase bug has been overstated in this thread a little.
No, i've tried it alot, RR's do not hit.. I have never even managed to destroy a immobilized one with RR's. But they seems to hit STUG's and Panzers like crazy. =)
Going to test more now. :)
I suggest getting the Hellcat rather then the M10.
Sure thang.
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First, you don't count the first 15FU for the barracks because you start with 15. Second, BARs aren't necessary in a vehicle rush.
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He previously said he wanted BARs in order to fight off infantry and maintain fuel control. Thats why he has factored in the 60 fuel :P. However getting BARs will delay you ALOT if your intentions are fast vehcles. Unless you are like dominating the map and have like all the fuel then its not advised. Just get 4 rifles IMO. They do fine. BARs will drastically improve AI but certainly not AT. And if you do see a Puma dont get stickies as a counter if you dont have your motor Pool up. You will just get kited to death.
You can also Jeep Push early in the game. Pretty useful :P
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Jeep pushing is fun. ;D
Btw, fast M8 first, then BAR's and\or WSC wasn't as bad as i thought.
Airborne Fire-Up + Satchel charge on AT-guns feels so good, don't know why i've never used Satchels on anything else than buildings before =P
NEW QUESTION!
Do you EVER get second SupplyYard upgrade? 140 fuel! O.o
Side question
When do you use tanktraps?
I close of chokes on maps like semois sometimes and then mine gap on the other choke.
Another question
Why does the Hard Wehr AI earn 16000MP and I just earn 10000. I also keep all the points of the map for most of the game but it earned 25% more fuel and munitions.
Does wehr just earn more MP than US?
Another game now, he made PUMA's and FLAK cannons + other AT.. Couldn't use infantry nor vehicles.
Got him down to 100 points while i had 480, had all sectors on the map and all looked good until he flipped it.
I checked the stats afterwards. He earned 700 Fuel, i got 500. 10,000 manpower, i got 6000.
I had the game all the way until he started pumping out vehicles like no tomorow. I destroyed like 15 out of 36 made tanks. I made 4 vehicles that game and was out of fuel, didn't even get BARS at all.
I got this weird feeling that it cheats when it starts losing. Thats real bad programming of AI. Why not make it smarter instead of giving it twice my amount of fuel.
I cut off his fuel, woho, i'm winning!
No wait.. he earned twice as much as me but didn't have any fuelpoints.. WTF?
So stupid.
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Yeh, tank traps are used to either close a gap like a hedge, or use it with an ATg so that they can't flank, or just make a funnel and put mines in the (hopefully) only exit. (Mind ya, there's a crapload of strategies besides what I just said, these are just the more obvious uses)
As taken from TVtorpes, the computer is a cheating bastard. To provide a challenge in hard and above it gets bonus resources to burn. You'll see it crank up units like they cost nothing and the like. EF improved the AI quite a bit, but it still wouldn't be able to compete without the resources boost.
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Yeh, tank traps are used to either close a gap like a hedge, or use it with an ATg so that they can't flank, or just make a funnel and put mines in the (hopefully) only exit. (Mind ya, there's a crapload of strategies besides what I just said, these are just the more obvious uses)
As taken from TVtorpes, the computer is a cheating bastard. To provide a challenge in hard and above it gets bonus resources to burn. You'll see it crank up units like they cost nothing and the like. EF improved the AI quite a bit, but it still wouldn't be able to compete without the resources boost.
Cool, cool =)
Did 3, 1vs1 against humans just now. Won all games vs Wehr as amri. Really something else that is.
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Tank traps are good for small spots like hedge groove gaps. But don't waste your time on making a lot of them. Well road blocks are fun and can be easily built and provide green cover.
And the comp gets extra resources depending on the difficulty. And they get free units.
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Tank traps are good for small spots like hedge groove gaps. But don't waste your time on making a lot of them. Well road blocks are fun and can be easily built and provide green cover.
And the comp gets extra resources depending on the difficulty. And they get free units.
Damn computer cheats like a bitch!
I've never used the traps for cover.. Wire on the other side to avoid the enemy use your cover. Why am i making sandbags? :o
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No no no. Regular tank traps and Wehr Dragons teeth do NOT provide cover. HOWEVER PE Road Blocks are uncrushable, provide green cover, take a while to destroy, enable PG to also build wire, and any PG squad can build it. They can be useful if used right :P
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Ah, PE roadblocks.. They like sandbags. :P
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@Monos: They're actually much better. Sandbags are crushable, and only provide light (yellow cover).
I've found that comps like to frag wire/tank traps to get through. They're really not the best tool for area denial, more like a "slow the enemy down for your guns" tool.
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@Monos: They're actually much better. Sandbags are crushable, and only provide light (yellow cover).
I've found that comps like to frag wire/tank traps to get through. They're really not the best tool for area denial, more like a "slow the enemy down for your guns" tool.
In PVP it's 100% easier to cut because the enemy can just see if you attacking it and then will deploy reinforcements.
We're off topic gang. We can move this to American tactics or get back to the airborne discussion
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LOL I like your new avatar :P. No more Italian mob boss? ;) Would that happen to be the icon for the foreign reinforcement troops?
Can you explain the Strafing Run for Airborne doctrine. I heard the latest vCOh patch made it weird and by bunchong you troops you actually take less dmg overall :-X
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Strafing run used to do more damage to singular units. Bunched units took less damage. Now it has been reversed so blobs take more damage.
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LOL I like your new avatar :P. No more Italian mob boss? ;) Would that happen to be the icon for the foreign reinforcement troops?
Vito may be making a return. I'll see how I like this :)
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Strafingrun was crazy against blobbed units. Blobbing vs airborne is not a good idea, took out this one guys whole army with one run ;D
And CranialWiz ... Your not at scary without the vito pic ;)
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@Monos: They're actually much better. Sandbags are crushable, and only provide light (yellow cover).
Pardon me but I think sandbags provide green cover
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Yep, sandbags give green cover.
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Yep, sandbags give green cover.
lol yeah, used sandbags quite some.
Roadblocks are just sandbags with Tanktraps in them.
:)
Airborne aren't as stupid as i first thought. Used bombingrun to destroy some tanks the other day.
Maby it's expensive since you can use "Drop supply" ability to get extra munies.
And Manpower blitz of the germans ain't too bad of an ability is it?
It gives you 900MP and 3 mins with 50% ... 3 mins of resourses is about 810 depending on upkeep.
900 + 405 = 60% more resourses on the same three min.. Though you lose 125 munitions. But most often i'm low on manpower not munition. Or am i totally wrong?
When you need 2 stormtroopersquads and a tiger fast.. You can just use some of those 250 munis you have and use the rest on weapons for the troopers.
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As blitzkrieg doc has no artillery ability it does have something to spend ammo on :P. Also ressource blitz is a really powerful ability which allows you to trade ammo for manpower... it can be compared with the red tide ability.
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Thats what i'm saying, almost in the same words. But why do people on GameReplays say that it's useless along with blitzkrieg ability? Don't they all have their usefullness and strategies they can be implemented on?
O_o The MPblitz and blitzkrieg abilities is nice in my eyes.
They gladly pay for flankspeed on other units, but when you can speed up your entire army it's not cool? whaddup with that.
Blitzkrieg assault taken from company of heroes wiki:
"This ability will give every single unit you have on the field a firing and running/speed bonus. ... The Blitzkrieg assault also gives a great suppression resistance along with heavy crush on your tanks."
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Blitzkrieg assault taken from company of heroes wiki:
"This ability will give every single unit you have on the field a firing and running/speed bonus. ... The Blitzkrieg assault also gives a great suppression resistance along with heavy crush on your tanks."
Your units also cap faster. Btw don't forget that the Blitz doc has the Assault nades ability which is quiet abusive :P.
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Your units also cap faster.
Nice!
Btw don't forget that the Blitz doc has the Assault nades ability which is quiet abusive :P.
For what? Making squads retreat? :P
[[I like advanced warning ability from defence Doc Nobody can enter your sectors unseen. =D (except snipers)]]
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Assault nades are like Grenadier nades only they do additional stun and make you soldiers spaz around. Its best used with Volks as they will throw 3 nades at a time. Even if your units do dodge it they will still get stunned, meaning they wont be able to dodge the second barrage. Very powerful. Just don't use it on units in a building cause they can just leave and then the assault ability is canceled but you lose 50 muni. Its good vs MGs or blobbed infantry.
Thats what I'm saying, almost in the same words. But why do people on GameReplays say that it's useless along with blitzkrieg ability? Don't they all have their usefulness and strategies they can be implemented on?
The reason they don't necessarily like it IMO is because as Wehr munitions are extremely important. While US and PE must spend fuel in order to get better Wehr and Brits must spend muni to get significantly better. Fuel is important but it can be argued muni is even more important for Wehr.
With that said both abilites cost 125 muni or more which could be spent on say a shreck and MP40s or Sual flamers and a mine. Getting heavy crush and fast capping is cool but dont spend 125 on it for that sole purpose ::).
The resource blitz is a cool ability. BUT it is a heavy investment and if you choose wrong you are screwed. Most people use it to get say, a Tiger, a Panther, or StuH and stormtroopers; is that a fair statement? Lets say you get the Tiger but your enemy decided to get heavy AT to counter an anticipated Tiger. Now you need AI. But chances are you used Resource blitz because you didnt have the mp for anything else. So now what do you do? You are both down on mp for 3 min (which is actually a long time) and you are down 175 muni. But lets say that doesn't necessarily happen and you went dual, even triple stomtroopers because you saved some mp. Now you want shrecks for them (cause dual shrecks storms are so fun :P.). But you just spent your muni and unless you were sitting on alot of muni prior to resource blitz, you cant get shrecks for them can you? Or use ability for that matter :(.
So resource blitz IMO is okay BUT risky IMO. But I'd be better if a balancer weighted in on this :P
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Assault nades are like Grenadier nades only they do additional stun and make you soldiers spaz around.
I know. but they are weaker in dmg than grenadier nades. They just stun ALOT and kind of force a squad to retreat officer or die. Should try them out and hope my enemy forget to retreat. ^^,
So resource blitz IMO is okay BUT risky IMO. But I'd be better if a balancer weighted in on this :P
but it should be able to use it to win games. Because if you didn't use blitz and got that tiger the normal way anyways. You'd just use 3more min to get it and.. 3 min is quite alot in the heat of battle.
NEW QUESTION
What was my biggest fail in this game?
http://www.gamereplays.org/companyofheroes/replays.php?game=25&show=details&id=256438&st=0#9071870
Now i don't know much about wehr, i just improvice. I did a quite good job in the start with the MG's and taking out the M8 and Halftrack. But i did a lot of mistakes and he took out my tanks and i didn't even see.
Was that the turning point? Or the fact that i had too little infantry against the rangers?
Maby i wasted to much MP's on pointless deaths. But so should he have done, since i killed more men than he did.
I wasted the sniper before he paid for himself by doing a huge mistake. BUT! why didn't my mortars seem like they was even fire'ing on his blob in middle before i lost. I put all my trust in it but it didn't seem to fire. Just one hit would've been devistating. It died with 0 kills.
I'm such a n00b :P
Lots of knowlage about individual things, little experiance. Tell me every mistake please and what i must work the most on.
I'd be really thankfull :)
(I went defence to avoid sneaky capping and have easier time seeing flanks. AND! I was going to use my medic bunker to reeinforce in the field. But i forgot too. Maby because i've never done it before. It got me two Grenadiers though)
WAKE UP CALL
Maby it's the booze i drank that makes my reaction slower and make me fuck up extra much and lose track of all the things that goes on. ::)
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The reason I say its risky is because you will probably immediately use that 900 mp and then you will be stuck with w/e path you just went down. Yeah a Tiger i powerful but there are appropriate counters. You might think "well I'll just support it". Chances are you are using this out of desperation, not as a game ender. And what if you desperately need muni? And you might think 3 minutes is not alot but it kind of is. A game is usually 30 minutes anywho so 3 minutes is like 1/10 of the game right there. In addition once you call in your new units with the new manpower you upkeep will see an even further drop, meaning you will be trickling mp.
And you should really not ask all these random questions on a thread called "Airbone = Useless". Just lock this thread if you have nothing more to say and ask your questions on the appropriate topics ;).
And I might not be a balancer but I could watch the replay if you want :P
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And I might not be a balancer but I could watch the replay if you want :P
Yeah please :)
And you should really not ask all these random questions on a thread called "Airbone = Useless". Just lock this thread if you have nothing more to say and ask your questions on the appropriate topics .
But it's nice to talk here :(
Playing this good guy over and over now.. Damn i'm bad, but atleast i don't give up :P
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I'll be typing errors as I watch you video :P
Okay I finished watching the video. These are some simple mistakes I noticed that can be easily fixed. If anyone else feels differently about what I typed you are free to correct me as Im not a expert :P. I know its a long list
- You dont use your second pio to help build your barracks. And for a while they just sit there.
- You send all your units to stop one engineer squad from capping. It only takes one squad.
- IMO you needed to consolidate your forces to one side, not try to fight for the whole map. You were spread too thin and the rilfes were capping everything.
- You also capped with your MGs which is not such a hot idea, especially in enemy territory.
- You also have alot of idle units. They should cap or something else. Like make your pios lay mines. Which is another thing. Lay mines
- You cap under fire which is a bad idea. Unless you are almost done dont do that.
- You have your units get really close to rifles just to utilize yellow cover. Stay at long range. Thats when Axis infantry do best.
- You needed to buy some vet. You were floating alot of fuel anyways
- You fausted a full health armor skirts M8. VERY bad idea. It gains you nothing, especially cause his engineers were right next to his M8, ready to repair. Yo should have saved + spent your muni on a shreck to support you PaKs
- Considering how you had defensive doctrine and you saw his 3 rifle squads coming towards your mortar and Paks, you should have retreated. Also there is no reason to have 2 paks right next to each other.
- You didnt use the first panzer at all. When those rifles charged you that thing should have helped. And when you call arty don't have your volks walk into the middle :P
- When your panzer is next to an AT gun and its firing at your tank's ass dont just simply turn around. Get behind that AT gun and blow that crew to hell >:D
- When you are HEAVILY outgunned (2 wounded KCH and a badly damaged panzer vs 2 vet 1rangers and 3 vet 2 rifles) dont try and fight them off. Retreat immediately. Its not worth giving them veterancy. And you pios are just sitting around. You should have repaired you tank
- You got panzers but I think you needed Ostwinds which are probably better AI
- Later you weren't really using cover. You just blobbed and charged. I know its tempting and I do it sometmes but dont. You also left his BARs for him to take back. Later you pick his BARs up with KCH. Try not to do this. The reason KCH are so effective is because of their MP44s. With BARs they get worse!
- You're too defensive later on. I know you went def doctrine but take it with a grain of salt. You had 3 gren squads and for a bit they just sat there. Then they started building sandbags which the enemy started using. You probably would have been better getting a sniper. Even two
- It only takes 1 unit to cap. Dont have all your squads cappng one point >_<
- And the reason he had so much resources was because he retained map control and kept cutting you off. Strategic pinots dont grant you much but they are still important.
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It's scientific, you start blobbing when you lose.
Can you build faster with more PIO's?
Most of those things you wrote down i knew allready and are obvious errors, like capping with more guys, thats another part of the blobbing issue. You just choose all your guys and click a point and forget to get the others doing their stuff.
About mines.. I was really low on munitions all the time it feelt like. Never got too much.
That i was too defencive, i haven't even noticed! :P
I play kinda like this no-matter what doc i choose. Or i think, but i might be wrong.
I know that axis bolt rifles are best at range, but is beeing at range more important than cover? If yes.. I've been wasting alot of potential.
Hehe, paks can't retreat.. i had them cloacked, hoping he wouldn't see them xD ... lolol
The infront of AT gun thing worked out, since he retreat his AT gun after his last shot, wich would've hit anyways. Then it was just to go back and repair.
And at the time of those KCH, dmg panzer.. It feelt like i was beaten allready. Last resistance.
Panzers was because i expected more armor and my packs were destroyed\decrewed.
My first sniper died before getting kills, so i never feelt i could afford another :(
The second mortar thing.. i still think it should've killed afjew rifles instead of 0.. it was nicely hid behind the hedge with support from grenaders.
Tnx alot btw! :)
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Losing a sniper sucks but never be detered from getting another sniper. Its that second sniper shot from a new sniper that pisses the enemy off (well for me at least :P)
Yes, the more builder units the faster. Thats why when units are done building, they usually go and help another unit build. Cause it speeds things up.
I feel you choose defensive doctrine just for the increased sight range. That was not good on your part. You were floating alot of mp. Blitz would have been the most helpful. Especially StuHs.
Yeah, when it comes to Axis troops, range is probably better than cover. Riflemen are deadly at lose range. I assume you werent paying attention but a vanilla rifle squad actually killed your KCH at close range and got vet 1 (that was painful to watch :() And there was enough cover where you fought that you didnt need to worry about no cover. And if cover really is a problem nade them out of their spot. Hoever I dont recomend assault nades with KCH. Expensive + not worth it.
Just because being in front of an AT gun worked once doesn't mean it will work again. That was a bad move on the US player IMO when he moved his AT gun. Losing the crew of a AT gun is always worth it if that means they will kill the panzer. He was about to kill ur panzer and just decided to scoot backwards. It can always be recrewed. Panzers cant
You can always recrew paks which you never did. And when I said "retreat you paks" I meant moving them away from the rifles, not just standing still. You could have moved them foward where he would have never looked. His troops were all in the south, not the north (I checked). And your paks should not be literally on the front lines. They should be a little behind just in case infantry come first. And if you must have them on the front lines pull them back if you see a rifle blob coming towards you. Dont just stay still >_<
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Just thought about it.
"Why didn't i move them when steathed?"
That was lame.
:)
Yeah, when it comes to Axis troops, range is probably better than cover.
Noted, but KCH i thought was good at close range. Never got more than 2vet lvl's on them and the same on tanks. =P
How early do you advice me to get vet? When should i use fuel on vet and not teching?
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Depends on your strategy.
When I play wehr I usually build the Kampfkraftcenter when I'm teching to tier 2, then build a Kriegs barracks, queue either a gren (if enemy got bar upgrade) or a pak (if there's no bars). Then I get another Grenadier and buy vet 1 and 2.
This way you have 2-3 Volksgrenadiers and 2 grens with vet 2 + 1-2 mgs. Pretty much all you need ^^
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Honestly like darcreaver said it depends. If you intend on going infantry heavy its a good idea to get vet soon. Vet 2 is sort of a counter to BARs and Vet tanks are sort of a counter to 76mm upgrade. The same concept applies to SU. I'm not 100% sure about Brits as they are sort of a wtf faction :P. If you are rushing T3 or T4 then don't get vet. Spend it on teching.
And honestly you should really close this topic and go to the appropriate place for any new questions. We have answered all you questions and the topic's original complaint has been resolved. Now this has sort of become a question lobby for you :P
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Yeah :) Tnx again. :D
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