Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => General Discussion => Topic started by: jcraven33 on April 12, 2012, 12:55:43 AM
-
I enjoy playing the comp, but at hard the hard level I cannot imagine what would be required to beat the soviets with germany. I use FOW cheat, pause to see what is being developed so I can counter, and even then the overwhelming mass of infantry by the 10-15 minute mark is just incredible. I would give anything to see a good player as Germany against hard or expert Soviet on Angoville with the new patch. I know you can't post comp stomp replay in the replay section so I am not sure where I might be able to get one of the experts to partake in the challenge? If it's not possible I understand. Maybe some advice then. I would imagine mg's to block them from fuel and in the buildings, but they cocktail me with a 2nd unit (Ai is getting craftier everyday it seems :-) or cocktail the building and when I exit they pounce hard and force a retreat with maybe one survivor. I mine all over the place, I guess I could just go for quick AC to wipeout infantry but I would like to accomplish other ways if possible. Thanks for any input.
-
The AI get more resources as you go up in difficulty which is why you may be experiencing this............. dilemma :P
-
I checked out the numbers. On normal it is easy for me, but hard just blankets the field. I am going to do expert just so i can laugh my ass off at the whole battlefield being covered in soviets over running me LOL
-
I checked out the numbers. On normal it is easy for me, but hard just blankets the field.
Hard AI = 125% more MP
Expert AI = 150% more MP
That is why bridge maps are so desirable. Since so many units swarm the field, people need a easy solution to contain the enemy.
I accept your challenge to beat the Soviet AI on hard or expert
-
Cool. Let me know if it was easy for you (like first or second attempt success) or if it challenging even for the better players. Thanks. I look forward to seeing how it goes ;D
-
It'll please you to know I have completed the task you requested :P. I did it on the 1st attempt
Edit: I was Wehr against SU Hard AI on Langres with 500VP so it is possible on a balanced map (compared to a bridge map) but its hard :-X. I'll try PE later ;)
-
Where is the proof, man? ;D
-
I believe him....but I want replays so I can see where I am going so wrong. I just dont understand what I am missing :P
-
I'm not that good but playing as Wehr on Leningrad i couldn't block of the bridges fast enough to stop an onslaught of 2 russian enemy's on Normal. My pioneers just die too fast then i cant put up buildings and if i do get them my MG's/Volks die so fast do to mass hoards of Conscripts/Ingy/Command Squad. I'm not even sure how to stop them on Normal :P :'(
-
I took out Hard AI SU on Angoville as PE with 500 VP just now :P. Pretty hard :-X. So it IS possible, just requires some work ;)
Replay? Well, I was having a......strange conversation with someone in my Wehr Game but here is the PE game:
Its a pretty long game (and certainly not my best played game >_<). Bring popcorn :D. Oh and just so you know I forgot to uncheck Schwimm and Hetzer from my last game which is why they're there XD
-
Our conservation ruined your game? Sorry :P
-
No it's just that I'd rather keep it private ;). I'll play another game for jcraven33 so that he can learn :) (even though my 1st game had an epic Tiger Ace destroying everything :o. I really like the TA now)
Edit: Okay so here is a new Wehr game I played on Semois. Same scenario as b4. Pretty short game (alot of carnage on SU side :P)
-
@Fish: yeah, that's why it's a PM:P
jcraven33: AI hate snipers, they will try to preserve their squads and retreat from 1-3 sniper shots, give you more room to breath. After that try to have 2 Puma to deal with mass infantry, let them run around the map and kill everything on sight, just don't lost Puma and you can build more stuffs and win. You don't have to apply any specific tatic to AI, just keep cool head and win ;D
-
... You don't have to apply any specific tactic to AI, just keep cool head and win ;D
+1
Hi guys! From what I am reading here it sounds like quite a few people are having difficulty coming to grip with Sov AI. Here are some suggestions that may help you turn the Red Tide:
- "Know your enemy" -Sun Tzu: Play as the Sov faction and learn how the Heer AI factions work. If you easily defeat Wher or PE increase the AI difficulty. Watch how the AI operates at various levels. Then Switch back to play vs Sov's
- "Know yourself" -Sun Tzu: The AI is very inflexible (rigid?). It is all to easy to find a strat or Doctrine that beats the AI at almost any level. PE Scorched Earth is the most effective Doctrine to use against AI. Don't use it. Don't use Your favorite Strats. Don't use Doctrines at all. (When you have learned this lesson then Ignore my advice and Play as you please -The object IS to have fun). Be Flexible.
- "An Army marches on its stomach" Napoleon. Pay attention to your Economy. The AI receives that 1.25 or 1.5 multiplier on MP, muni and FP. In pvp good tactics overcome good economics. Not so in stomp play. The AI has the numbers on its side in resources and as a tactical advantage. (The AI responds 8 times a second. Human response time is 1/sec average). It is necessary to use your economy. Cost effectively. "Psst! Here's a little secret" - I can't use Corsix but I can read LUA (aka SCAR) files. I don't read the unit stats. I Study the AI routines and programming; The AI runs on a economics based model for almost everything. Its not the best model to use because it can't react quickly enough to events happening on the map. In this regard the human player has the tactical advantage in response time).
- "Those who do not Learn the Lessons of History are Doomed to repeat it" -George Santa Anna: All to often I see the words: "Its not History its a game". Each of my suggestions has a Historically relevant adage associated with it. -the lessons of History. The difficulties you'all describe in this thread relative to difficulty levels and the CPU mode baffle me. I always play at Hard or expert level and frequently 3v4 AI or 2v3 AI. I win maybe 80% of the time.
Maybe George was right. Hope this helps.
-
IMO you are worrying too much about your economy. Is it important? Sure. Can it make or break a game? Most definetly! But while you're playing you don't sit there saying to yourself "Alrightly, I bought 3 volks squads and 2 snipers. Therefore my opponent must have maybe....errr.....(pulls out calculator)....ah! 6.54 conscript squads!"
That doesn't happen in RL. We all know your opponent has more things in general. Simply getting things that supposedly stop spam don't work all that well (MG). You need to utilize cover to over power your opponent as Axis and not panic which in turn will prepare you for PvP. In my Hard AI games I had like what, 1 MG that I usually lost and never got back? Its all about micro and counters. The AI can make as many conscripts as it wants, as long as it has no AT, my Tiger Ace will destroy everything.
And you don't necessarily need to pay both sides to know how to win. it's helpful but not required. I have a friend who's been kicking my ass as PE lately and he's played US like once and lost XD.
-
Ok....Cat thank you for the replays. I am going to review them today and see what I can learn. To Otto, I love playing as soviet and the odd part is I crush everyone with soviet and can beat Wehr on hard with them. I think they are the strongest power by far but I don't want to get into that because I have seen boards where it just gets a war going (and its against comp so it does not get the same validity in the argument). Since i do so well with soviet I figured I would understand them and be able to beat them just as I do in the reverse scenario, but that is definitely not the case (on hard) :-) I do agree with the sniper comment by Dann and will try to incorporate another one or two and see how that goes. My puma's get waxed by the SU naval BIG TIME. They always seem to go with that doctrine against me and they really do alot of damage to my pumas so I will have to work on my micro with them and I am sure that will help matters. Great thread (for me) thanks for all the input so far.
-
I think they are the strongest power by far but I don't want to get into that because I have seen boards where it just gets a war going (and its against comp so it does not get the same validity in the argument).
Its not that everyone hates the comp it's just its not a good determinant of balance. Lots of ppl play against the comp which is fine but when they start suggesting changes based on comp games, balancers usually get upset. For example:
"Oh conscripts need to cost more. The AI has like 5-6 of them before I can have 3 MGs"
The reason the AI has more is due to the high resources, NOT balance. AND the AI cheats sometimes. That's why you see these "Wars" ;)
-
Yea, I see the reasoning Cat. That's why I will avoid the factor strength issue as that is not what's important to me :-) And Otto, it sounds like you have a good grasp of the AI so if you do play a Wehr vs SU hard game on Ango that was fun and you would like to share it, I would love to see your style of play ;)
-
Have you tried a PvP game yet ???? Just wondering ;)
-
Grrrrr!!! I had a long reply and I got logged out so I have to redo it. This will have to be shorter. I basically said.... WOW!!! I watched that P.E. v SU game on ango and it was great. I can't believe SU had such map control at one point and you were still able to come back against the overwhelming resources ;) That hotchkiss taking out two hurt tanks and the heavy armor coming off map late really sealed the deal. Fun to watch. I noticed two things I do very wrong. Grouping....you and all the expert replays have way bigger groups than I do (i lose map control doing that so I MUST work on it) and you had two halftracks early which allowed you to finish off a couple units and not allow them to replenish. I may not seem like a big deal but looking at my games where almost no units die due to my not having the power to finish off a unit and allowing them to come right back is really a big factor I believe. I can;t wait to watch the Langres one now. I tried PvP awhile back but it was not my cup of tea. I have become to used to the pause button and like to be able to observe the battlefield and plan. When I play pvp things get really screwed up without this ability. Sad I know :-\
-
That's fine ^^. When I first played COH all I did was play comp games. Then I started venturing out to PvP (getting my ass kicked all the while :-[) and eventually got used to the notion of PvP. But as you said:
I tried PvP awhile back but it was not my cup of tea.
Hotchkiss with the upgun and APCR can be pretty powerful. And plus I forgot to uncheck it XD. Just like the schiwwm.
As Axis I find (and have been told) that focusing on one side is better which is why throughout the replay I am mainly on the right side of Angoville. Later I venture out to the left side but not all out. The Semois game isn't AS fun but it still has the same principle ;)
-
That Semois was funny. Great use of the Mg and Mortars. Those mortars were just incredible at keeping those huge swarms retreating. I think i will use this map and see with all my little tricks, tips, and unfortunately cheats (FOW and pausing) :-\ I might be able to pull off a win before moving to the ango map as I believe this one is set up better to lock down some choke points. That was very helpful ;D
-
Your stomp replays and analysis are great. I will have to save some games. Cat the notion of working on the flanks is the right way to go. APCD on a Hotchkiss! +3
Kraven: If your planning on a long post or it happens anyway save on a stickypad (works better than notepad) and C +P.
...To Otto, I love playing as soviet and the odd part is I crush everyone with soviet and can beat Wehr on hard with them. I think they are the strongest power by far ...My puma's get waxed by the SU naval BIG TIME. They always seem to go with that doctrine against me...I will have to work on my micro with them.
1. try 2v3AI SOV vs Wher
2. If you see A sov sniper start, anticipate Propaganda Doctrine will come next. MGs and mortars screened by some infantry works best vs NI.
3. The converse: If you are Stomping Sov vs Wehr (usually the case?): when you see an ATG or mortar, (Wehr-T2), the pumas and stugs are next. Anticipate this. Research T2a and get a mortar out, I prefer 107mm. and concentrate on produing THs until I can research the upgrade. Mortars yield a lot of criticals on Pumas, That will slow them down. Use the I/F mortar attack move on Pumas. (A cat and mouse game to be sure). As you damage the Pumas they will pull back and the AI will bring up Pios to repair. That is the time to use Mortar barrage abiltiy. Move in your TH to mop up.
4. Nobody wants flame wars. The Class wars with MP and Stompers is equally unpleasant. It is one of the reasons I started these Stomper threads - to avoid needless conflict.
You are both correct. Cat I don't pull out a calc in game. I plan in advance. Thats the reason for the 17muni/rifle bull shit and studying the Economics. Its preplanning that allows me to pretty guess what the AI or another player is going to do so that my counter to my opponents next move is being produced and on the field before the threat appears. It doesn't always work. but thats the way the game goes.
Your comments regarding balance are 1000% on the nut. I don't try to change the game when I get into balance discussions, (it might seem that way but I really don't). There are balance issues in comp play that effect how the DevTeam develops the game. If these issues can be addressed the PVP game will ultimately be better. I am A Player-Sort of. I am a Stomper for Certain. Foremost I am a Game Designer. And that is a different POV entirely.
Jcraven: A rhetorical question. Are you addicted to that stupid pause button. I am and I hate it.
Your stomp play style 1v1 IS A DIFFERENT GAME from Stomp team play. In 2v2,3v3, 4v4, 2v3 and 3v4 play you are dealing with 3MGs, 2 snipes, 3 ATGs at a time. 1v1 stomp play doesn't have this overwhelming enemy superiority aspect. It is as close to PVP as a stomper can get. The AI is ignorant. It doesn't know anything. It is not clever or sneaky like people are.
The classic 1v1 maps in COH are great. My Game designer jinn makes me mostly use the EF maps. My favorite is Smolensk. IMO Sylver makes the hardest Stomper 1v1 maps to play. My hat is off to you - I really hate you sometimes. 8) :P I am not happy unless I am playing 1v1 stomps at expert well. It is a 50-50 w/l proposition most of the time.
-
Well I just did semois Wehr vs hard SU and I crushed them. It was almost too easy so I am now going to try ango again. I am assuming it is the open layout of ango with wehr that is giving me such problems. It might be that I just learned alot over the last day about how to play it as well ;D (I'm hoping) And Otto....YES!!!!!!!!!! I am so addicted to the stupid pause button it sickens me :P LOL The good part about the Semois game i just played is that in all my excitement to play I forgot to do the FOW cheat so I could see the map (I only use it against hard and expert) and by the time I realized I had not used it I was well in the lead and realized I didn't need it which was really cool for me. Only cheat I used is my addictive pausing. I like those number 2 and 3 tips. That will help alot if I can remember that while playing my Ango hard try. I also will have to give some other maps a try that you talked about after I finally get by this Ango issue I am having >:(
-
You are both correct. Cat I don't pull out a calc in game. I plan in advance.
This was meant to be a joke. Sorry for any misconception ;).
And Otto....YES!!!!!!!!!! I am so addicted to the stupid pause button it sickens me :P LOL
You should try not to use the pause button :P. Its okay for starters (I never used it b/c I didn't know what button it was XD) but if you're going to tackle harder and harder enemies, you need to let go of this "crutch" so to speak. And semois is kinda easy for Wehr against AI b/c it's easy to hold the enemy where you want them and AI wont flank. In open maps you are much more susceptible to flanks.
-
Well I am definitely learning something cause I just won on ango with Wehr v Hard SU. I had 461 left and it wasn't even close??? The only thing I can think is that it is easier with Victory points because I normally do annihilation. I was south base (which I think is harder) so I capped right side and got an mg in the house closest to their base in the north on the right. That along with one infantry to draw them in and I completely dominated. had those 2 vp's and eventually had enough advantage to go to the left side. Was fun but a little to easy. So now I guess I should do it without FOW on and try to start limiting my pauses until I get to where I don't need them anymore. Going to be a hard habit to break though. Veterancy really helped as well as using that northern house as a new command post to reinforce ;D
-
That's good to hear ;). I (finally >_<) took out expert AI on Langres with Wehr. Balance with SU and PE is a bit shaky right now so I won't even attempt it but at least I managed to do this :D. I almost thought I lost :-[. Lost like 6 pio squads and VPs were ticking down XD
-
I will definitely take a look at that replay. Expert Ai must have so much infantry running around for SU that I will get dizzy trying to follow them all :-)
-
Hmm, Im not sure. But your problem is beating Exp Soviet CPU only? Or you have trouble by beating Axis CPU as Soviets as well. Tbh, I never have problems with exp AI... Best conter vs AI are Snipers and fast vehicles.
-
Best conter vs AI are Snipers and fast vehicles.
Yeah AI doesn't really make an attempt to focus on snipers and when tanks hit the field they don't rush for AT IMO. They continue to do what they were doing. I had a sniper right in front of a conscript squad and instead of focus firing it I think they focused on the volks also in front of them. At least I think.
-
Just playing against SU expert and only on certain maps ;) If i play as SU I clean house most of the time. It's just the massive Russian swarm of infantry Russia sends. And there naval forces kick the Wehr pumas around pretty good because they can produce so many with the extra resources.
-
That replay against expert was good Cat. Tiger ace to save the day :-) Those anti tank guns didnt even dent it and that off map artillery strike was hilarious ;)
-
Hmm, I uploaded 4 replays vs Exp AI on speedyshare as I cant attach files in forum atm. IMO AI behaves pretty stupid sometimes...
http://speedy.sh/WmxDm/CPU-stomp.rar
-
Yeah AI loves to run towards MGs rather than around or away ;D. And honestly the AI should NOT be allowed to lock down ZiS guns. They do more harm than good. I literary just have Ostwinds go around locked down ZiS guns XD
-
Thanks donthateme. I will look at the replays to see how you do things ;D And Cat I agree with the ZIS lockdown
-
Hmmmmm.....I just watched donthateme's angoville expert replay. I really don't know what to say. I take it he is at the expert expert level because that wasn't even a game. He didn't even have to get a krieg barrack til around 10 minutes and used a motorcycle and two mg's as his starting units. I am going to have to watch it a few times and try to figure out he made it look absolutely effortless. Didn't have to vet or use command points but he did at one point just to test things out and put them out of there misery I am assuming? I will watch the langres replays as well. Those replays will certainly show me areas I am lacking in and help me improve. Thank you.
-
How do you think the Sov ATG Lockdown should work for AI?
-
That is a tough question Otto. Since I am not a programmer I am not sure what is possible. I love the concept of the lockdown, but I wish there were a way to ensure it only set up with a support unit (unless in base) and it instantly started to pack up when attacked from the side or flank. I doubt that is possible though :( When playing against Ai I guess I will just have to take into account its weakness and not exploit it to be fair :)
-
That is a tough question Otto. Since I am not a programmer I am not sure what is possible. I love the concept of the lockdown, but I wish there were a way to ensure it only set up with a support unit (unless in base) and it instantly started to pack up when attacked from the side or flank. I doubt that is possible though :( When playing against Ai I guess I will just have to take into account its weakness and not exploit it to be fair :)
What do you think about this:
- setup only if shooting enemy vehicle and facing enemy vehicle -> no setup if shooting infantry so he can runaway from infantry
- unsetup if under attack and not shooting enemy vehicle
-
Good suggestions jojorabbit. Certainly would improve its survival ability, only thing it would take away is its devastating attack when locked down on an unsuspecting vehicle that comes into range :P
-
I dont know where you people came with 125% hard income and 150% on expert. It is pretty simple to look at the numbers after youve played a game. You can play with an AI teammate to compare his income to yours. To cut all this short, I went and played with a hard teammate. Results were.
AI on hard gets 150% income of both manpower and munitions, however no bonus on fuel, I guess to keep the AI from outteching you.
Some time ago I did this with expert too and results were something like 180% for both manpower and muni, no fuel bonus.
-
TomasK, The 125/150 is what game Documentation suggests. Some folks have Stated expert AI is 200% MP. I don't think the AI gets a muni bonus in v1.6. The end game stats are suspect in many cases. (IE both you and your AI teammate can have the same accumulated muni or FP at end of game).
I post this because I'am working on improving AI and all input in this regard is useful.
-
AI cheats in several ways, not only by resource-income.
Brit AI for example allways gets a Lieutenant instantly build with a normal Tommy-squad. PE can build Grens in a building which was upgraded to heal-station. EF AI also can see your mines without detecting them and will mortar them.
-
AI cheats in several ways, not only by resource-income.
Brit AI for example allways gets a Lieutenant instantly build with a normal Tommy-squad. PE can build Grens in a building which was upgraded to heal-station. EF AI also can see your mines without detecting them and will mortar them.
It will even attack cloaked units like pak38 with mortars and artillery.
-
AI cheats in several ways, not only by resource-income.
Brit AI for example allways gets a Lieutenant instantly build with a normal Tommy-squad. PE can build Grens in a building which was upgraded to heal-station. EF AI also can see your mines without detecting them and will mortar them.
The AI is SAWA. -Sees All Knows All. PE 251_HT comes with 2- PG/TBs.
Do you know what routine allows AI to call-in PGs at "aid station"?I know it was used in OF-Market Garden. Why, you ask? I could tell you but then I would have to kill you. ;)
-
maybe non-mod CoH it was 125 150 but didnt it include fuel bonus too ?
I know of those cheating spawns but they are outside of what I want to say. Why would end game stats lie I dont know. Normal is pretty much dead while hard just outspams you. If end game stats are off how do you know anything it calculates is correct and useful at all ?
as in another thread I said, play for example Wehr, play with an ally wehr. Due to different upkeep in yours and AI´s upkeep on manpower the raw number of bonus to MP cannot be easily calculated, however munitions are very simple, because there is no such thing as a muni upkeep anymore (dint look as sovs with sturmovie if they still got it according to patch notes)
these numbers are easy to calculate the gap between your and AI´s income. If even these numbers are sort of fail I dont know why should you trust some unknown 125 150 numbers that are just totally off, as they are just a little differences between normal 100 and supposedly hard 125 %, while normal is as easy as it is boring, playing hard is lets say hard, a real big difference. At the same time when you have the same income of fuel the AI doesnt really outtech you, so I find the endgame stats to be clearly correct. Especially when you play low-fuel maps it does really take time.
In what the AI is clearly superior and what you have to count for, they always run exactly where you dont have LoS try to cap where you have the least amount of units even though it shouldnt know things like that ...
The most annoying thing is when the AI uses mortars to kill your invisible units, it doesnt use "barrage" it just targets them as if nothing happened. things like luft kettens or sov spotters get hit like that when no other units are around.
-
AI talk with forked tongue. Kimosabe. There are more than enough anomolies in the end of game stats that I generally am suspicious of the Comp Scores. I find the capping summary, total elapsed time and the final VPs counts are the only useful information provided. You have to calculate the VP ratio yourself. Standard VP analysis for wargames is 5:1 -overwelming; 3:1 Strategic victory; less is a tactical victory.
One of the biggest advantages the AI has is reaction time . Comp can react 8 times, (ticks), per second. Normal Humans 1/sec. 17 year olds are faster.
Keep moving your units around. Tactical map shows mortars, (when or after they fire?). If mortars are close by you can see when they fire and move, (sometimes). :P I don't see much problem with the mortar cheat. A player can use IDF attack rounds. With any kind of Situational Awareness you can do the invisible unit thing too.
-
the last time I played for VPs it was like 3-4 years ago ... always annihilate.
as for invisible units, I dont see why the AI should have some ability which you cannot have. It is an annoyance nothing more. When a unit is unseen and doesnt fire at all, why would I need to relocate it if its location was meant to stay there from the enemy and at the same time spot/spy on the enemy ? To me there is no justification for AI to have this particular cheat at all.
-
Because what would be the challenge :P? AI is pretty easy already. Might as well give them a leg up.
-
...
as for invisible units, I dont see why the AI should have some ability which you cannot have....When a unit is unseen and doesnt fire at all, why would I need to relocate it if its location was meant to stay there from the enemy and at the same time spot/spy on the enemy ?.... To me there is no justification for AI to have this particular cheat at all.
THe AI is SAKA.That is a given. It operates on a set of rules which are different from player rules. THat is the game engine....How can you be sure your hidden unit has not been spotted in accordance with the rules? Have you ever had a squad in camo and unengaged that was hit by AI indirect fire? I don't think the AI does this. Blind fire IMO is an acceptable AI tactic.... When the AI mortar fires on your individual mine locations I consider it to be an AI exploit; which should be prohibited in the AI rules.
I like the direction this conversation is developing. Keep bringing up your Kvetches about the AI. Jojo and Otto are working to get rid of AI stupidities.
-
I like the direction this conversation is developing. Keep bringing up your Kvetches about the AI.
Too bad the question just got answered :P. And whats a "Kvetches" ?
-
Kvetch: Yiddish for bitching or complaints.