Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Eastern Front Mod => Suggestions => Ostheer Suggestions => Topic started by: Genzero on February 16, 2010, 04:38:17 AM

Title: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Genzero on February 16, 2010, 04:38:17 AM
What about if the Ostheer could build Tiger tanks out of a factory, Because the Russians can build IS2 out of their factory. :P
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: HyperSniper999 on February 16, 2010, 04:50:50 AM
Place a build limit on them, and make them less effective, but it would be cool to control two tigers at once.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: BDNeon on February 16, 2010, 05:39:01 AM
I like the idea, but they should be decidedly weaker compared to the call in Tiger for Blitzkrieg, and maybe since these are early mass production tigers they could be easier to knock the engine out.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on February 16, 2010, 07:28:14 AM
naw if you want to make them weaker then the Blitz Tiger then don't unit cap it... I say make them as strong as a Blitz Tiger but unit cap them at 2 or 3...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on February 16, 2010, 08:05:10 AM
Tigers out of factory are great, as long as theyll be the only non doctrinal heavy armor. 700MP/150fuel is the right price for a tiger.
No Panthers for Ostheer.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: 250.Inf. Div. on February 16, 2010, 01:37:01 PM
you can make buldable tigers using corsix mod studio is very easy.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ScreamingStukas on February 16, 2010, 02:03:04 PM
Why? I personally don't think it's required...and no Panther tanks for Ostheer? Sorry, can't agree with that. I say keep Tigers a doctrinal weapon. Perhaps in one doctrine there is an ability that allows Tigers to be built out of a factory (w/ limits of course). I'm doing just fine however with Panthers being the best tank being built out of factories however. If you gather up enough resources, you can have as much as 3 Panthers in the field and w/ them in a group along with some support they can be devastating.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: delmar77 on February 16, 2010, 03:22:13 PM

I remember of a time (2006 - patch 1.0) when you could play whith  2 Tigers. It was a glorious time, so why not bring it again the possibility?
Maybe limited by two Tigers.

My opinion but open for sugestions.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GamblerSK on February 16, 2010, 03:28:14 PM
that idea of buildable Tiger and no Panther is good i think but from some doctrine you can call in armor group - 3 panthers for 1500 manspower... :) that should be i think its better to build tiger then panther which should be called in...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on February 16, 2010, 06:57:10 PM
that idea of buildable Tiger and no Panther is good i think but from some doctrine you can call in armor group - 3 panthers for 1500 manspower... :) that should be i think its better to build tiger then panther which should be called in...

I agree with this, buildable tigers with Panther Doctrine call in? It could work
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: berni on February 16, 2010, 07:56:07 PM
with or without tiger there has to be a tank that goes with the role of the panther

what if once you have the building for doing tanks you can call in a tiger, but it will cost man power and exp points. doing this you can have a tiger, but you need more time to have doctrine things, you cant spam. the cost has to be something that makes the tiger a shock unit, maybe this cant be done, but its a idea:P
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on February 16, 2010, 08:32:12 PM
Why? I personally don't think it's required...and no Panther tanks for Ostheer? Sorry, can't agree with that. I say keep Tigers a doctrinal weapon.
If every of 3 german armies had panthers that would suck. Whats the point of having different armies but same units?
Tiger I is a rarely used wermacht unit so it would be great to have it. One on the map limit.
Ostheer tigers would be weaker than veted wermacht tigers.

If allies would start to spam IS-2 or Fireflies 1 tiger wont stop them. Ostheer would then have to use a JagdpanzerIV - the heaviest non doctrine tank destroyer compareble to SU-100.

Even if the Tiger I would cost 800MP/200fuel it would be nice to have a "finish them off" unit.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on February 16, 2010, 08:56:02 PM
If its gonna be that much I would want it to be as powerful as a Wehr tiger that is extremely expensive, the Wehr tiger is only 900 and with a PE ally you can get as many as you want (with in reason obviously)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Toorstain on February 16, 2010, 09:11:39 PM
I would rather see it as a Non-doctrinal call-inn. Like panther battlegroup.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on February 16, 2010, 09:56:12 PM
I would rather see it as a Non-doctrinal call-inn. Like panther battlegroup.
Thats Ok, but then you would have to make an expensive upgrade. That Tiger cant apear too early in the game.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Zerstörer on February 16, 2010, 10:02:05 PM
If you make something normally buildable...it can't really be that good...as a capped one off callin in...we can cheese it up as much as we want really  ;)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on February 17, 2010, 02:24:08 AM
well what if you made the Tiger a slightly less powerful attack but same armor? 700MP 150 Fuel 3 unit cap
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Aouch on February 17, 2010, 12:08:13 PM
If you make something normally buildable...it can't really be that good...as a capped one off callin in...we can cheese it up as much as we want really  ;)
So there's only a small possibity to see them being buildable?
Thanks!  :)
Seriously, allowing the Ostheer to build Tigers would really take away from the Blitz-Doc of the WH, even if the OH-Tigers would be worse...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on February 17, 2010, 05:26:36 PM
Seriously, allowing the Ostheer to build Tigers would really take away from the Blitz-Doc of the WH, even if the OH-Tigers would be worse...
I thought Blitz is about the allmighty British killers - the stormrtoopers...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Freakstar5 on February 17, 2010, 05:51:52 PM
 the Tiger tank was very often used Number of pieces: 1355
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Panzer4life on February 17, 2010, 06:40:22 PM
I don't think the Ostheer should have the Tiger one tank or the Panther as a build able unit. The Panther tanks are not needed if you play wisely. The Panzer elite Tank destroyer tactic makes the Panther tank useless, with the Hetzers and Jadgpanther. The Luftwaffe can use fallschirjager ad attack vehicles from behind with ease, not to metion the butterfly mine drop and HSC-129 strike. And the Scorched Earth could rely totally on the Hummel to destroy the enemy.

  The tiger tank, while its main role was in the Eastern front, it was not built in great numbers, so it could not be built in a factory. 
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Zerstörer on February 17, 2010, 06:49:24 PM
Quote
well what if you made the Tiger a slightly less powerful attack but same armor? 700MP 150 Fuel 3 unit cap


Then it would become a more expensive Panther you can spam in 2v2+ games....no point as it will serve the same purpose...German main heavy is the Panther...Tiger is the 'German special'

No, Tiger has to be a 'legend' like it was...aka in coh terms a super tank
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on February 17, 2010, 07:26:18 PM
Quote
well what if you made the Tiger a slightly less powerful attack but same armor? 700MP 150 Fuel 3 unit cap
Then it would become a more expensive Panther you can spam in 2v2+ games....no point as it will serve the same purpose...German main heavy is the Panther...Tiger is the 'German special'
No, Tiger has to be a 'legend' like it was...aka in coh terms a super tank
Thats why I want a normal, very expensive (800MP/200Fuel) non veted Tiger I with a one on the field limit. There will be no spamming it.
A doctrinal a KT for the wermacht, Jagdpanther for PE and a Tiger ace (or an Elephant) for the Ostheer "can be a 'legend' like it was".
Or maybe 1 legendary unit per German fraction is not enough?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Aouch on February 18, 2010, 01:05:34 PM
Can any mod please change the poll or start a new one?
Right now it doesn't make any sence at all.
It should be more like:

Do you want Tiger-tanks to be buildable for the Ostheer?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Toorstain on February 18, 2010, 03:14:13 PM
What if you want them to be call-inns, but non doctrinal? ;D
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on February 21, 2010, 06:35:00 PM
you should  just make them expensive.I.E.1000 MP, 100 MU, 200 F,pop 20 that way other players really have some time to prepare themselves. The Ostheer needs something heavier, or else people Will just play against them as the US to get heavy tanks and slaughter them.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ThGermanElite on February 21, 2010, 08:17:53 PM
IF the Tiger costs more than the IS-2 then it should perform better than the IS-2.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on February 23, 2010, 12:10:12 AM
It usually does. I haven't tried it but I don't think the IS-2 can take out a tiger 1v1 my post was to resolve the "tweaking" matter, so the stats aren't modified, just the price.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on February 24, 2010, 12:49:12 AM
okay the tiger, for gods sake.

Everybody wants it to be in the Ostheer,
but there has to be a solution which makes it
usefull and also non OP.


Thats the problem.

What are the suggestions which where actually made to
include the tiger IN the ostheer, let me think about it..



1.
the idea of putting it right in the Tank factory next to the panther.

-> the problem of this idea is that its too easy to get a tiger tank like this, because the tiger is still stronger than a IS2. Also no any german faction can build tigers, especially not right away.



2.
The idea of making it being a doctrinal call in. In gernal, a Tiger Ace. The black skin was mentioned several times, for example by me in my earlier concept ;)

-> This sounds probably like the best solution. BUT, this way the Wehr tiger would loose its coolness, because the Ace should be more compareable like a king tiger. In gernal, a upgraded tiger with special abilities.
This would probably kill the feeling of the wehr tiger.





3.

The 3rd solution was the idea of bringing it into your tank factory via a dotrinal late game upgrade. Tiger Number limited to 2 at the same time.


-> This idea comes with a lot of originality. It would rather be another doctrinal call in unit or just a big beast rolling out of your factories right away.
The disadvantage of this solution is, that its hard, i mean really hard to get a tiger like this. But hmmh, maybe its the best solution because remember, its still a tiger ;)




Just to clarify the tiger problem a bit,

//Venoxxis
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on February 24, 2010, 01:17:39 AM
Here is another option that solves the immediate problem and the Call on super tank problem, make it doctrine specific built out of the Tank Factory, this would eliminate the spam with a limit to 2-3 Tigers on the field and the early late game spam because you need to get the CPs for it...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on February 24, 2010, 02:39:11 AM
you got it.
The best solotions in my eyes as well.
for the reasons of balance and originality !
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Genzero on February 27, 2010, 05:14:14 AM
the Tiger tank was very often used Number of pieces: 1355
As Freakstar5 stated there were 1355 Tigers built in the war and most of those were in the eastern front this is why i asked if allowing tigers to be built or called off map but more then "1 tank". Because I don't want 3 factions to have panthers, that's like having the Russians having the Sherman. I want different units for all 3 factions, and sins in the War the Tiger 1 wasn't really a super tank the germans super tank was the Maus( 2 only made it into battle) , King Tiger , JagdTiger, Elefant Tank, Sterm Tiger, and the landkreuzer p. 1000 ratte ( which was never completed, because of perduction was stopped in 1943).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1000_Ratte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landkreuzer_P._1000_Ratte)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on February 27, 2010, 09:40:58 AM
No maus that has been stated I wish people would stop bringing it up! and no only 3 where made and one made it to prototype testing phases and even the germans realized it was a waste of resources after the testing began... so no Maus and nothing of the other ridiculous Super Tanks that never made it off the drawing board
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: BDNeon on February 27, 2010, 12:22:56 PM
For the love of god, NO. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

NO.

For christs sake, this isn't Forgotten Hope Secret Weapons. No Mauses, no Rattes, no diesel powered combat mechs, just NO.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on February 27, 2010, 01:20:23 PM
okay the tiger, for gods sake.
the idea of putting it right in the Tank factory next to the panther.
Ostheer dosnt need a Panther. Wehrmacht can build them while PE can spam them.
Giving a Panther to Ostheer is like giving a lend-lease Sherman to Soviets.
Quote
The problem of this idea is that its too easy to get a tiger tank like this, because the tiger is still stronger than a IS2. Also no any german faction can build tigers, especially not right away.
Then make it more expensive than IS-2 with a 1 on the field limit. 750MP 180fuel.
Quote
The idea of making it being a doctrinal call in. In gernal, a Tiger Ace. This sounds probably like the best solution. BUT, this way the Wehr tiger would loose its coolness, because the Ace should be more compareable like a king tiger. In gernal, a upgraded tiger with special abilities.
This would probably kill the feeling of the wehr tiger.
Vet III tiger will never loose its feeling.
Ostheer also needs an Elephant doctrinal unit.
Quote
The 3rd solution was the idea of bringing it into your tank factory via a dotrinal late game upgrade. Tiger Number limited to 2 at the same time.
Thats not a solution. If 65% want it out of factories, they want to have it in every doctrine and can pay even 800MP/200Fuel for it. Only 17% wants it as a doctrinal unit (Tiger ace).

Heres my solution:
1. Buildable Tiger. 1 on the field limit. 750MP 180fuel.
2. Doctrinal Tiger ace or Elephant (or both in different doctrines)
3. No Panthers and PzIVs.
4. PzIII, StugIII and JagdpanzerIV as medium armor support.

Its all in my doctrine:
http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2681.0 (http://easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=2681.0)
I think its balanced. Without Panthers and PzIVs Ostheer will be unique and different than Wehrmacht/PE tactics will be needed to play it.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on February 28, 2010, 04:45:05 AM
Quote
The 3rd solution was the idea of bringing it into your tank factory via a dotrinal late game upgrade. Tiger Number limited to 2 at the same time.
Thats not a solution. If 65% want it out of factories, they want to have it in every doctrine and can pay even 800MP/200Fuel for it. Only 17% wants it as a doctrinal unit (Tiger ace).


Actually my idea would satisfy everyone, people who want it to be built can get it to build... BUT at the same time it is  doctrine specific so it satisfies the Doctrinal unit people...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on February 28, 2010, 09:02:59 AM
Quote
The 3rd solution was the idea of bringing it into your tank factory via a dotrinal late game upgrade. Tiger Number limited to 2 at the same time.
Thats not a solution. If 65% want it out of factories, they want to have it in every doctrine and can pay even 800MP/200Fuel for it. Only 17% wants it as a doctrinal unit (Tiger ace).
Actually my idea would satisfy everyone, people who want it to be built can get it to build... BUT at the same time it is  doctrine specific so it satisfies the Doctrinal unit people...
People dont want to get it build. People want it in every doctrine. Russians have their command squad in early game, Ostheer would have their Tiger I tank in the late game.(If they can afford it)
Less than 20% wants it as a doctrinal unit, some think about the tiger like they do about the PE panther battlegroup - but then it would be too easy to get.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Versedhorison on February 28, 2010, 10:55:53 AM
I voted off map because making it build-able would break the other tigers being off map.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on February 28, 2010, 11:49:10 PM
Maybe they should take awhile to create, that would make it closer to being historically accurate and more fair for other players.
You guys are complaining about other factions not being able to build Tigers , well the entire point of the Ostheer was to make it UNIQUE
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on February 28, 2010, 11:58:28 PM
Amen brother Amen!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ThGermanElite on March 03, 2010, 02:01:00 AM
Maybe they should take awhile to create, that would make it closer to being historically accurate and more fair for other players.
You guys are complaining about other factions not being able to build Tigers , well the entire point of the Ostheer was to make it UNIQUE

Couldnt agree more, Im sick of these people claiming that the off map Tigers make it unique, but the truth is: Make the tigers biuldable, something new, something......unique!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Toorstain on March 03, 2010, 04:29:48 PM
I think it has to be off-map.

Though I think it maybe should be possible to get it through a factory, but it must come from off the map, and be limited. This is because some of the "magic" of the heavy tanks is that they must be called in and also because of the point of soviet being the only one who can get several heavy tanks.

And if you wonder, I don't like soviet having IS-2s coming out of factories, either.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on March 03, 2010, 06:06:23 PM
Hmm,  not a bad concept, but what would the difference be other then call in time from a doctrinal call on?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: SauerKRAUT on March 03, 2010, 06:25:14 PM
Maybe like all docs can call them like the PE after some perquisites?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on March 04, 2010, 12:02:51 AM
I smell spam?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Versedhorison on March 04, 2010, 06:27:51 AM
you rang?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-J24359,_Rum%C3%A4nien,_Kolonne_von_Panzer_V_(Panther).jpg)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: SauerKRAUT on March 04, 2010, 01:42:16 PM
those are panthers, it is hard to find pictures of multiple tigers but I happen to have one. Even with PE though how can you spam something that costs 1000 MP?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on March 04, 2010, 02:30:53 PM
those are panthers, it is hard to find pictures of multiple tigers but I happen to have one. Even with PE though how can you spam something that costs 1000 MP?
2 Panther BG call-ins and you have a spam. Nobody said it has to be a 1vs1 game. Even PzIV/Cromwell spamming is more difficult (fuel).
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: SauerKRAUT on March 04, 2010, 04:22:56 PM
You need to go through a crudload of fuel and MP first though, even without other vehicles and infantry upgrades it is at least 235 fuel and a couple k MP, you would not survive that way and it is something that is kinda earned if you can make it that long especially against soviets 1v1 with PE I have yet to see that day...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Versedhorison on March 04, 2010, 10:57:30 PM
those are panthers, it is hard to find pictures of multiple tigers but I happen to have one. Even with PE though how can you spam something that costs 1000 MP?

when you get to late game panther spam can get ridiculous at times.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on March 05, 2010, 01:47:11 AM
6 Panthers, 3 vet 3 Defensive 2 Vet 2 Defensive and 1 vet 1 Defensive..... yeah, you wanna talk about spam there ya go, the only time I lost a Panther is when I got surprised by a 152... it died quickly there after...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: luz777 on March 05, 2010, 02:04:01 AM
Personally I could quite happily have an Ostheer without Panthers, Tigers and Panzer IV's, make some room for things we havn't seen before n that.

But I think buildable Tigers would be an ok idea, provided they were weaker/slower than the Wehr one, and had a unit cap.

Call them "Tiger Ausf. H" or something to signify them as early war tigers, compared to the "Ausf. E" late war ones for the Wehr. Or something.

Cheers
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Versedhorison on March 05, 2010, 06:03:31 AM
Problem is that those were some of the coolest and best tanks the germans had. There isn't much after that.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Pollarisz on March 16, 2010, 07:44:14 PM
Tiger's versions

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_hVOW2U7K4-M/SdvNCAjzlHI/AAAAAAAA-I4/gaDEyAgoOBw/s800/rthewthdtfgbhdf.jpg)
 
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on March 17, 2010, 12:34:24 AM
They never even had a Prototype Tiger 3...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ThGermanElite on March 17, 2010, 07:10:12 AM
The Tiger saw action in the Eastern front for the first time during the battle of Prokhorovka/Kursk, and there were ALOT of them, however, they were all recalled by Hitler to Italy DURING the battle, and hence, the battle was lost for Germany. But really, they only saw action there, and slight "pockets" of them from then on...having 2 Tigers max would be a nice little present :)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on March 17, 2010, 03:55:17 PM
yep.... Than as a teaser call them back to off map!!Haha
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ThGermanElite on March 17, 2010, 05:56:30 PM
yep.... Than as a teaser call them back to off map!!Haha
xD
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Versedhorison on March 20, 2010, 05:23:26 AM
They never even had a Prototype Tiger 3...

+1

It looks reminicent of the 'tank that must not be named'.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: OB3R on March 23, 2010, 03:09:41 AM
 ???Question for someone why cant the tiger have the same range and power as the 88 when its the same bloody thing except on tracks???????
OB3R
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on March 23, 2010, 03:34:17 AM
???Question for someone why cant the tiger have the same range and power as the 88 when its the same bloody thing except on tracks???????
OB3R


Balance!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ScreamingStukas on March 26, 2010, 11:06:09 PM
You know what...

I actually take back having Tigers being produced in factories, even with a limit. I kinda prefer them to be call-ins given there severely limited numbers in reality and their absence from the core of the army, normal Wehrmacht panzer divisions didn't have any. I see doctrinal call-ins as like independent/elite reserves that are to support the regular army (i.e. armed Waffen SS and independent Heavy Panzer Battalions), it is a role the Tiger obviously had and I actually think it should keep it in the Ostheer.

I know it'll be similar to the Wehrmacht method given it's a call-in, but the Ostheer Tiger I could be a Tiger belong to the SS, with benefits like perhaps extended view on all sides and ability to command tanks as I had demonstrated in my Ostheer concept.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on March 27, 2010, 01:24:52 AM
I wouldn't call it "Severly" limited , I'd say relatively rare.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: SauerKRAUT on March 29, 2010, 02:17:34 PM
It was essentially what I like to call an "OH SHIT!" weapon. When Russians were threatening to overwhelm a sector, they call in the tiger company to fix that little "problem." Call in makes sense, like the PE panthers but much cheaper than the nerfed god forsaken wehrmacht tiger but defiantly not doctrinally constrained.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ford_prefect on March 29, 2010, 02:24:07 PM
I've always called it the "pest infestation company"  ;D whenever my friends were feeling all high and mighty with some Shermans I just call in the pest infestation company
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Gen. Patton on April 06, 2010, 01:26:31 AM
that would be a good idea nut the tigers should either have engine damage oy tracks destroyed because the tigers made later on in the war had lots of problems because of sabotage
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on April 15, 2010, 12:41:56 AM
The reason I think that the Tiger should be a doctrine unit is because the Germans didnt make that many of them, so it wouldnt have been easlily accessable.

However, I do think that whichever doctrine gets to call it in should be able to call in more than one, like maybe two or three.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on April 15, 2010, 03:05:24 PM
The reason I think that the Tiger should be a doctrine unit is because the Germans didnt make that many of them, so it wouldnt have been easlily accessable.

However, I do think that whichever doctrine gets to call it in should be able to call in more than one, like maybe two or three.
1350 Tigers. Thats as much as MarderIII or StugIV. Twice as more as all stubby PzIV. Much more than Ostwinds and Bergetigers.

Nobody said that it will be a spammable unit. Some say that there should be a limit of Tigers on the field, others say that it should be just more expensive (750-900MP/180-200Fuel).

There will also be a longer (more expensive) teching up to get a Tiger than to get a Soviet IS-2.

Finnaly youll build youre Tigers with 0 vet. No vet 3 call-ins will be possible.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: vietlord on April 15, 2010, 11:45:08 PM
pz4 = 6000 made...

except that I agree with you Paciat
2 tigers limit seems good
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Cranialwizard on April 15, 2010, 11:49:34 PM
I'm saying that would be a good idea, but like Paciat, make it a limit. I'm thinking maybe 3 max?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on April 17, 2010, 05:37:05 AM
Yea, the Germans made 1,354 Tigers, and like 6,000 Panthers. I dont know exactly how many Panzer IV's were made, but I know that it was more than Tigers. The Panzer IV came out earlier, and it was cheaper. 1,354 may sound like a big number, but it really isnt, because that was over the entire war. Many were destroyed or abandoned.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: wordsmith on April 17, 2010, 09:05:51 AM
To put a max.limit to Tiger would have sense only if the Tiger would be doctrinal unit. In whole CoH only doctrinal units have max.limit. Units produced from factories don't, except British Lieutenant, Captain and Command Cromwell.

The better would be don't put a max.limit but to make it less available. For example - as I suggest in my concept:

Quote
- Tiger has "Progressive popcap" attribute, it means that first Tiger build has 14 popcap, next would have 16 and next 18 and so on representing the fact that Tiger was state of the art technology and it required high prestige to obtain more of them. If some Tiger is destroyed this Popcap will decrease too so the popcap limit could be then like this:
1 Tiger  14
2 Tigers 30
3 Tigers 48
4 Tigers 68
5 Tigers 90
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 18, 2010, 12:04:43 AM
I like wordsmith's idea, but maybe lower it a bit.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on April 20, 2010, 03:15:34 AM
I get this feeling that if we didnt put a cap on Tigers, that AI's would make a lot of them. think about it, a bunch of Tigers would be unstopable!

It would be cool if you were the guy with all the Tigers, but when your the guy facing it, then your all of a sudden not be liking it as much.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 20, 2010, 05:33:57 AM
Tigers can be killed by flanking, almost easily.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Cranialwizard on April 20, 2010, 12:06:34 PM
Tigers can be killed by flanking, almost easily.

And if you destroy/damage their engines, which is very easy to do with Tiger/King Tiger, you've got them screwed. Artillery can take care of it from there.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on April 20, 2010, 04:08:07 PM
Tigers can be killed by flanking, almost easily.
King tigers can be killed like that, but not a smart Tiger-ass since this tank is simply to fast.

And if you destroy/damage their engines, which is very easy to do with Tiger/King Tiger, you've got them screwed. Artillery can take care of it from there.

True their engines brake down very easily, esecially the one of the KT.

But did you ever used artillery against these tanks? They are pretty much useless against a tiger and against a KT its just useless since art. pieces bonce off. Only off-map art. works fine against both.

Nevertheless there should be a limit on the tigers since its simply a hell machine. I made a big post about that some weeks ago, i could quote it here and you would understand that than, for sure.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Cranialwizard on April 20, 2010, 10:37:08 PM
Quote from: Venoxxis


True their engines brake down very easily, esecially the one of the KT.

But did you ever used artillery against these tanks? They are pretty much useless against a tiger and against a KT its just useless since art. pieces bonce off. Only off-map art. works fine against both.

Nevertheless there should be a limit on the tigers since its simply a hell machine. I made a big post about that some weeks ago, i could quote it here and you would understand that than, for sure.

If your lucky, Mortars tend to damage and can destroy engines quite easily, provided you make a hit.

105s are good for Anti-Tigers.

The artillery firebase of the soviets is too inaccurate. But God of War could come in handy (:<
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 21, 2010, 01:49:29 AM
Soviet firebase can hit very well if you aim it right ;)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on April 21, 2010, 03:55:38 AM
In my experience it has been rather inacurate. Its a little more accurate a close range, but by then you might as well just use the heavy-mortar.

Its not a question of aiming it right. Its a question of range and accuracy.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 21, 2010, 04:03:58 AM
I beg to differ, I get great results out of the firebase when I need to.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: wordsmith on April 21, 2010, 08:22:39 AM
Akalonor means that he's using Arty spotter ;) - Sniper team or Commander spot ability isn't it? Because the Soviet arty is more accurate if shooting somewhere where you can actually see...

But back to topic - Tiger could be build from factory and if it have appropriate cost I don't see why it shouldn't. You can't compare it to Wehr Tiger because Ostheer wouldn't be Wehr. It would have different veterancy and different cost. Because if Wehr player loses Tiger he just buy new one with same veterancy for 900MP so then it is pain in the ass because it is really cheap and quite hard to beat with vet3.

However I agree that it could be problem with PC skirmish when AI Ostheer have more resources... but it sure will not be problem when playing Basic match or Automatch i.e. vs humans.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Killar on April 21, 2010, 11:03:25 PM
Don´t know why you people are so enthusiastic about building tigers.

1. Main battle tank on eastern front was the Panzer IV not the tiger.

2. First coh used 2 Tigers as a call in but this option was reduced to one Tiger, because two Tigers were already too heavy

3. If you can build more than 2 Tigers out of factory you have to make them weaker than Wehr tiger because of balancing.

But that is crap!

Imagine you play as Ost your teammate as wehr and he has a better tank than you though you both use the same vehicle!

IN addition it isn´t historical. Can´t remember tiger´s used on the Eastern Front were weaker than on western front.


I think it would be better to have a Tiger battle group consisting of 2 Tigers as a call in, not as doctrinal.

As balancing i would make a high pop or/and you cannot use other tanks in your Ostheer if you choose to use a battlegroup
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: hgghg4 on April 22, 2010, 07:29:42 AM
OR you can do this

890MP 150 Fuel 14 Pop Doctrinal Buildable Unit with a 2 Unit cap and doesn't vet but still as strong as Blitz Tiger vet 0


Guess what you solved the problems!

that wasn't so hard.... now was it?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on April 22, 2010, 04:14:25 PM
OR you can do this

890MP 150 Fuel 14 Pop Doctrinal Buildable Unit with a 2 Unit cap and doesn't vet but still as strong as Blitz Tiger vet 0


Guess what you solved the problems!

that wasn't so hard.... now was it?

Perfect yes. I guess this problem has already been solved in these forums. And i still think that the doctrinal buildable limited Tiger is the best idea at all.


But 700MP should actually be enough with that amout of fuel. But just if they are limited to 2.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 23, 2010, 02:38:17 AM
Akalonor means that he's using Arty spotter ;) - Sniper team or Commander spot ability isn't it? Because the Soviet arty is more accurate if shooting somewhere where you can actually see...

No actually, I'm talking about the Firebase.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on April 23, 2010, 03:42:29 AM
yea, I could see it being a doctrinal-buildable unit. thats how the king tiger was done im BotB mod.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 23, 2010, 07:18:45 AM
And BK mod, except all tanks(except simple ones like Pz E ( , WW  , etc ) are like that, quite a pain to get panthers, but they are super in game, and their skins are shiny   ;D
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: wordsmith on April 23, 2010, 08:13:53 AM
No actually, I'm talking about the Firebase.

That's why I meant too - but to use some unit which can spot at longer distance. I have feeling that firebase shoots more precise if you order to fire somewhere where you can actually see on the map, in your unit's visual range. And commander has Spot ability, and Sniper team could increase the sight range with other Spot ability (then they don't move).
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ThGermanElite on April 26, 2010, 09:39:58 PM
I dont care which way, Tigers are Tigers, Id prefer them be called in, but I can adapt.

 HOWEVER, on a lighter note, you know what a great mod would be? Secret Weapons of WW2.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on April 27, 2010, 02:25:58 AM
Battlefield 1942 had a cool "secret weapons" expansion. I can see that working for company of heroes. also, not all of the weapons would necessarily be "secret", some could just be "experimental" units, like the American M6 tank.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: ThGermanElite on April 27, 2010, 10:55:00 AM
Battlefield 1942 had a cool "secret weapons" expansion. I can see that working for company of heroes. also, not all of the weapons would necessarily be "secret", some could just be "experimental" units, like the American M6 tank.
Yep, I remember playing that expansion, thats what gave me the idea.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Steve 'Burro' M. on April 27, 2010, 12:28:18 PM
Germans with Jetpacks would be some cool shiznit.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Raider217 on April 27, 2010, 01:12:39 PM
Germans with Jetpacks would be some cool shiznit.
Lol Are Jetpacks even possible in CoH
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 27, 2010, 05:00:06 PM
Jetpacks? I thought thst even the modern ones were failures.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on April 28, 2010, 01:16:43 AM
I would like the American T-28 tank superheavytank.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 28, 2010, 02:03:15 AM
T-28 could be a US Jagdtiger, or a super heavy tank destroyer but only 2 were made.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: FriendlyFire on April 28, 2010, 02:08:59 AM
I could have sworn that this topic was about Tigers...

Back on Topic, I don't see the harm in making Tigers a call-in unit, sorta like the Panther Battle Group,

1) Do something... build every building or whatever
2) Pay 500MP, 100Muni, 80Fuel, or whatever
3) 900MP, call-in, up to two tigers on the field,

see....simple

PS, If your opponent has 2 tigers on the field, that means they invested 1800Mp, and what have you been doing all this time?

   
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Cranialwizard on April 28, 2010, 02:26:13 AM
Considerably, it depends on the player.

Considerably, it depends on how aggressive the opponent was/is.

Considerably, it's your territory that counts.

(Not to mention if there is an Instant MP ability like Blitzkrieg)

Considering all factors, the player could be trying to defend his own ass from tanks the opponent built ages ago.

You know often I use a similar strategy. I send in a couple of StuGs that I've had for about 4 minutes just waiting for true deployment, in the mean time I'm making Panzers/Panthers or Doctrinal Tigers.

It catches the opponent by surprise.

"HA! I GOT YOUR STUGS! TIME TO INVADE (:<"
"So you think."
"DUDE...HOW THE HELL DID YOU GET THE TIGER?"
"Skills.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on April 29, 2010, 03:58:58 AM
beware of the Stug spam!!! BEWARE!!!!!!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on April 30, 2010, 04:34:52 AM
Are the Devs even going to listen to this topic, even though 'Yes' is at 48, its their final call.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: comrade2012 on May 01, 2010, 07:39:57 PM
judging by the polls you would think that Tigers would be buildable.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Kaze_Ostheer on June 08, 2010, 10:46:46 PM
AGREE with Paciat! Soviet Union can build IS-2 , i like to see buildable Tigers for Ostheer even one Tiger cost 800 manpower , 150 fuel or 180 and 14 or 16 population per Tiger.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Toorstain on June 08, 2010, 11:09:41 PM
NO, NO, NO! The Tiger is MAGIIIIC!!! :o
 :D
But, seriously, it would ruin my day to see a Tiger coming out of a factory.
But i'm fine with it being buildable independent of doctrine, as long as it in the end comes from off-map. I also think they should do the same with IS-2, but then again... devs choice.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. on June 08, 2010, 11:51:13 PM
Are the Devs even going to listen to this topic, even though 'Yes' is at 48, its their final call.

We read a lot of all this stuff here.
BUT we wont and couldnt answer to all your stuff here.
When devs would answer everything or would comment
the stuff they would have so much to do that they wont
have time to work on their project ;)

So. U guys could discuss here, devs will read here and at the end devs and community will see what will happen out of all this input!!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Budwise on June 09, 2010, 07:28:24 PM
it would be great to bring back the Tiger Ace in the Ostheer as a doctrine unit ofc.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on June 24, 2010, 07:10:37 PM
NO, NO, NO! The Tiger is MAGIIIIC!!! :o
 :D
But, seriously, it would ruin my day to see a Tiger coming out of a factory.
Dont understand the wheres the difference.
Is Tiger I MAGIIIIC becouse you dont need to use fuel and wait untill it gets build?

I would love to wait 2 minutes for a single vet 0 Tiger (Panther is build in 70 seconds).
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Toorstain on June 24, 2010, 10:29:47 PM
I was just joking about the MAGIIIIIC-stuff. ;D

What I meant was that heavy tanks, in my opinion, shouldn't be built out of factories because... they are unique.

I don't care what you have pay or what you have to do to get them, but I think heavy tanks should be off-map units.

The heavy tanks is like the tank you just can't buy, it is so huge and epic that it must be called inn (except with russians).

Or am I just crazy ???
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on June 24, 2010, 11:01:55 PM
I was just joking about the MAGIIIIIC-stuff. ;D
...
The heavy tanks is like the tank you just can't buy, it is so huge and epic that it must be called inn (except with russians).

Or am I just crazy ???
Just build a huge factory with a Manufacture of Epic nearby.  ;D
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: 2LTAndeh on June 25, 2010, 02:43:05 AM
Tiger tanks? I want to see Liger tanks!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Seeme on June 25, 2010, 03:51:38 AM
Then it will be king tigers. Then, sigh, maus.

Then the game will be ruined when the ratte appears.

I souldnt of said that ::)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Versedhorison on June 25, 2010, 06:24:41 AM
NO, NO, NO! The Tiger is MAGIIIIC!!! :o
 :D
But, seriously, it would ruin my day to see a Tiger coming out of a factory.
Dont understand the wheres the difference.
Is Tiger I MAGIIIIC becouse you dont need to use fuel and wait untill it gets build?

I would love to wait 2 minutes for a single vet 0 Tiger (Panther is build in 70 seconds).

lol it wouldn't be THAT long if they were built in factories cause noone would wait 2 mins for a tank cause 2 mins in a rts is a LONG time.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: sid on June 25, 2010, 10:17:24 AM
just add some other tank to g oagainst is-2 and leave a tiger for call in. :)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: TheReaper on June 25, 2010, 11:32:19 AM
Then it will be king tigers. Then, sigh, maus.

Then the game will be ruined when the ratte appears.

I souldnt of said that ::)

You mean this:
(http://kepfeltoltes.hu/thumb/100625/Ratte_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg) (http://kepfeltoltes.hu/view/100625/Ratte_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg)
A képet a Képfeltöltés.hu tárolja. http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu (http://www.kepfeltoltes.hu)

 ;D
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on June 26, 2010, 01:22:33 PM
just add some other tank to go against is-2 and leave a tiger for call in. :)

This is right what we thought as well when this idea came up for the first time.
But there are serveral reasons which point out that the tiger would be a very nice fit for the ostheer's tankhall.
-> but just in a very special way.

Instead of making another call-in tiger ability, there could be a doctrinal ability which gives you the ability to build Tigers!

These tigers wouldnt have vet and only 2 would be buildable.

This concept would make the tiger being really a exellent part of the Ostheer - for the reason of originality.


(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8899/tigereasy.jpg)

is there.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: delmar77 on June 26, 2010, 04:41:43 PM
Agree again Venoxxis, thats good idea.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on June 26, 2010, 10:49:47 PM
Instead of making another call-in tiger ability, there could be a doctrinal ability which gives you the ability to build Tigers!

These tigers wouldnt have vet and only 2 would be buildable.

This concept would make the tiger being really a exellent part of the Ostheer - for the reason of originality.
What non doctrinal heavy tank will the Ostheer have then?
As Ive said in another topic:
I dont want tanks that are in the game allready.
1 on the field vet0 Tiger I and JagdpanzerIVs or Nashorns + a doctrinal Elephant and maybe a Tiger Ace. Thats what I want.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: 2LTAndeh on June 27, 2010, 12:36:41 AM
I dont want tanks that are in the game allready.
1 on the field vet0 Tiger I and JagdpanzerIVs or Nashorns + a doctrinal Elephant and maybe a Tiger Ace. Thats what I want.
[/quote]

In large part you'll be relying on light Panzer IIs and medium Panzer IIIs as T34 and AT fodder, with expensive tank destroyers as the only unit capable of doing any real damage to Russian T34s, KV-1s and the like. Using infantry towed AT guns and things like the Panzerfaust aren't being taken into account here simply because the likelyhood of being victorious against the Russian tank horde, while possible, being only armed with think-skinned tank destroyers, Panzer IIs and IIIs, seems so unlikely that it would be a waste to base the Ostheer around such a strategy.

I understand the desire for wanting new units and not just repainted ones. I believe its how the "old units" are implemented that is going to make the difference and thus make the Ostheer unique. As Venoxxis suggested earlier to leave certain heavy tanks or heavy tank destroyers up to a particular doctrine, to be able to build it but have a reasonable limit as to not make that doctrine, or the Ostheer in general, overpowered.

Anyway my point is that if you were to base the Ostheer's tank strategy/structure or however you want to call it, on simply whether or not the unit was in the game previously is far too narrow an approach to a faction. A balance between keeping the old and putting in the new is the most likely way to make the Ostheer an effective army that is not overpowered or underpowered.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: TacticalNuke on June 27, 2010, 04:20:10 PM
I don't want tanks that are in the game allready.
I understand the desire for wanting new units and not just repainted ones. I believe its how the "old units" are implemented that is going to make the difference and thus make the Ostheer unique.
Great... that rings bells. Can anyone say Rise Of Nations? Star Trek? Its just the same thing... over, and over, and over, and...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on June 28, 2010, 06:51:41 PM
[...] to make the difference and thus make the Ostheer unique. As Venoxxis suggested earlier to leave certain heavy tanks or heavy tank destroyers up to a particular doctrine, to be able to build it but have a reasonable limit as to not make that doctrine, or the Ostheer in general, overpowered.

Anyway my point is that if you were to base the Ostheer's tank strategy/structure or however you want to call it, on simply whether or not the unit was in the game previously is far too narrow an approach to a faction. A balance between keeping the old and putting in the new is the most likely way to make the Ostheer an effective army that is not overpowered or underpowered.

Very well said. This is what i think as well. "Super Tanks" like the tiger should stay doctrinal only - with a orignial ability. Which could make them buildable. For a usual unit, the tiger has simply too much power in my eyes.

Its right that there is some stuff which should be kept, but only such things like the panther for example. Units which fit still very well - and what is even more important - units which arent replaceable in a german army. Saying: .. they gotta fight the soviets!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on June 28, 2010, 10:48:43 PM
For a usual unit, the tiger has simply too much power in my eyes.
Usual unit?
800MP 180Fuel 90secs is not a usual price.
SU-85, SU-100 ISU-152 and IS-2 can get dmg bonus vs Tiger armor. Im not saing they need it becouse Ostheer Tiger will be vet 0.
Hope both SU will also get +50HP.

Everyone should remember that PE Panthers cost only 500MP per 1 tank becouse they are vet0. They also have better frontal armor than Tigers! (unless tigers are vet3)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GamblerSK on June 28, 2010, 11:48:19 PM
i think buildable tiger tank should be, but when doctrinal then with limit of 2 or 3 tanks on the battlefield...to have one tiger tank is some kind boring... :)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: TacticalNuke on June 29, 2010, 04:09:38 AM
More is not always better. Its great when you're the one who has them, but not so fun when you're the one staring down the barrel! Having multiple juggernauts of death and destruction would ruin the game.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Enrique 'Blackbishop' E. on June 29, 2010, 05:18:27 AM
I think that Tiger call-in could work, as PE calls panther battlegroup ostheer would have it's tiger gruppen. It's up to devs if there will be one or two tigers.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on June 29, 2010, 08:32:10 PM
For a usual unit, the tiger has simply too much power in my eyes.
Usual unit?
800MP 180Fuel 90secs is not a usual price.


well its still usually buildable.
To make the tiger rarity at actually was (also taking balance into account)  should be picked in a doctrine.

Making it super expensive is just lame.


A good price for a tiger could than be 700MP 155Fuel and 80 seconds building time.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on June 29, 2010, 08:51:42 PM
For a usual unit, the tiger has simply too much power in my eyes.
Usual unit?
800MP 180Fuel 90secs is not a usual price.
well its still usually buildable.
To make the tiger rarity at actually was (also taking balance into account)  should be picked in a doctrine.

Making it super expensive is just lame.

A good price for a tiger could than be 700MP 155Fuel and 80 seconds building time.
To me doctrinal Tigers are lame.
It would be a 3rd doctrinal Tiger.

There will probaly be an Elephant call-in in a tank doctrine. This would make this doctrine OP compared to other Ostheer doctrines... unless someone wants a 3rd doctrinal 88.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GamblerSK on June 29, 2010, 09:02:40 PM
To me doctrinal Tigers are lame.
It would be a 3rd doctrinal Tiger.


but tiger and K tiger is different, so it will be 2nd doctrinal classic tiger...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on June 29, 2010, 09:24:15 PM
To me doctrinal Tigers are lame.
It would be a 3rd doctrinal Tiger.


but tiger and K tiger is different, so it will be 2nd doctrinal classic tiger...

right.

and it would also not be a classic doctrinal tiger, since it would just make the tiger buildable - it wouldnt be a classificial call-in.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on June 29, 2010, 10:25:24 PM
To me doctrinal Tigers are lame.
It would be a 3rd doctrinal Tiger.


but tiger and K tiger is different, so it will be 2nd doctrinal classic tiger...

right.

and it would also not be a classic doctrinal tiger, since it would just make the tiger buildable - it would be a classificial call-in.
Who cares about some made up classification.
The real question is:
Will Tiger I be doctrinal like a wehrmacht or will it be an original becouse its non docrinal.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on June 30, 2010, 02:25:30 PM
Who cares about some made up classification.
The real question is:
Will Tiger I be doctrinal like a wehrmacht or will it be an original becouse its non docrinal.

Almost everybody does Paciat :P
And there is nothing which makes the tiger original if you pick it right into the usual faction. The only original feature about this idea is the bad balance.

Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on June 30, 2010, 02:29:48 PM
I'd like to point out that if you made the Tiger non-doctrinal for the Ostheer, the only reason left to pick Blitz is stormies. Everything else is either shit or is in another, better doctrine.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Akalonor on June 30, 2010, 05:16:18 PM
More is not always better. Its great when you're the one who has them, but not so fun when you're the one staring down the barrel! Having multiple juggernauts of death and destruction would ruin the game.
keep in mind that a few *Unlimited* IS-2's can take on a tiger .
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on June 30, 2010, 06:56:06 PM
Almost everybody does Paciat :P
And there is nothing which makes the tiger original if you pick it right into the usual faction. The only original feature about this idea is the bad balance.
Theres nothing original about a doctrinal Tiger.
Having doctrinal Tigers but not having any other heavy tanks (unless you want a 3rd Panther witch isnt original) is what I call bad doctrine balance.

Without vet and without ninja PAKs, Ostwinds and Panthers supporting one on the field Tiger will not unballance the game.
2 T-34/85 (160Fuel) or 2 SU-100 (170Fuel) or 2 M-10s (maybe even 1) or a Cromwell and a Firefly (170Fuel) are enough to destroy it.

There could be an economic MP income nerf (like when calling KT or Jagdpanther but not as strong) everytime a Tiger is build.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on June 30, 2010, 07:16:56 PM
I think it's alright to have a non-doctrinal tiger for the Ostheer but then the Blitz tiger absolutely MUST be changed into the ace in that case. Otherwise there is simply no good reason to go Blitz. I think the Ostheer T4 tank roster should be made up of panzer 3, panther and tiger. Panzer 3 being quite good against infantry and marginal against tanks, panther being the AT specialist and tiger being the heavy generalist tank.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Toorstain on June 30, 2010, 08:00:36 PM
What if we don't use the panther. That would justify building several Tigers.

A Panzer III early makes them Ostheer good in early game, but when T34s comes out, the Ostheer lose its momentum and must get late game Tigers. (Maybe an upgrade that replaces the option to build Panzer III with Panzer IV (Like the T34/85 upgrade).

But if you can have both Panthers and Tigers non-doctrinal it would be unbalanced. But if you keep the gap that the Panther leaves behind, I think that would justify Tigers.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GamblerSK on June 30, 2010, 09:39:07 PM
I think it's alright to have a non-doctrinal tiger for the Ostheer but then the Blitz tiger absolutely MUST be changed into the ace in that case. Otherwise there is simply no good reason to go Blitz. I think the Ostheer T4 tank roster should be made up of panzer 3, panther and tiger. Panzer 3 being quite good against infantry and marginal against tanks, panther being the AT specialist and tiger being the heavy generalist tank.



no reason for blitz? theres not only tiger but stormtroopers stuh also, or those grenades...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Seeme on June 30, 2010, 11:47:11 PM
How can they build a big tiger like that in a little bunker like that?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 01, 2010, 08:48:20 AM
no reason for blitz? theres not only tiger but stormtroopers stuh also, or those grenades...

Stuh is crap, nades are gimmicky and stormtroopers I have already stated is all that's left. Truly the only reason to go blitz is to get them and nothing else. That's why the old ace should be brought back and put in blitz if the Ostheer's getting tigers.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GamblerSK on July 01, 2010, 11:57:46 AM
theres still a reason to pick up a blitz tactic because its a wehr doctrine not ostheer, so different units tanks abilities i mean when you have wehr then you cant build tiger from factory so your only way is to go ostheer (if will have implemented the buildable tiger) but then you will not have wehr units under comand so theres no reason to not pick a blitz when you play wehr cause its wehr not ostheer... ::) hope you know what i mean
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 01, 2010, 12:21:01 PM
I understand what you mean but if you want to use a tiger you may as well go Ostheer and get the full benefit of one of those doctrines. Blitz is already a pretty terrible doctrine with the only attraction coming from stoms and the tiger. Take away the tiger and only storms remain. You may as well go defensive or terror so as to not limit yourself in a competitive game. You would only gain 1 useful ability as blitz but would gain 6 as the other doctrines.

As I said, I'm not against making the Tiger non-doctrinal for the Ostheer but the Blitz tiger must be replaced with the old ace from the pre-OF terror doctrine. Most players would probably prefer this anyway, especially the GR crowd who loved the ace.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GamblerSK on July 01, 2010, 12:28:35 PM
but its just your view i prefer wehr doctrines like this:
1. Blitz
2. Terror
3. Defense
and also when you have veted tanks on lvl 3 then its not the same tiger as you should build in factory as vet lvl 0 (dont know what veterancy system will ostheer use)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: SublimeSnugz on July 01, 2010, 12:46:26 PM
i can't really see why the Tiger shouldent be included in the ostheer. The Tiger is the most famous tank from ww2 imo. would be a shame to leave it, and not include it into the Ostheers weaponry

im gonna wait and see how it turns out, when the ostheer is revealed. Theres a pretty good mix of ideas for the devs to work with in here so far, keep up.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 01, 2010, 05:16:28 PM
but its just your view i prefer wehr doctrines like this:
1. Blitz
2. Terror
3. Defense
and also when you have veted tanks on lvl 3 then its not the same tiger as you should build in factory as vet lvl 0 (dont know what veterancy system will ostheer use)
Actually it's general consensus that Blitz is the worst of the 3 wehrmacht doctrines, only worth going because stormies are your only stopgap AT before sturm armoury if you go T1-T3 or to abuse assault grenades early on.

Say the Soviets were able to build the exact ranger unit out of their barracks, sure makes infantry doctrine less appealing now doesn't it? And that's with a large amount of other useful powers. I don't see why you would be reluctant to change the tiger with the tiger ace anyway, the ace is much better and Blitz certainly needs the buff. It also needs a way to spend munitions but this is probably beyond the goals of the EF devs.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Werwolf on July 01, 2010, 06:02:41 PM
you'll need mechanized repair units at least...Schwere-Panzer Abteilungen (Heavy Panzer Battalions) never operated without them, since Tigers kept breaking down  ;D
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. on July 01, 2010, 06:20:05 PM
you'll need mechanized repair units at least...Schwere-Panzer Abteilungen (Heavy Panzer Battalions) never operated without them, since Tigers kept breaking down  ;D

About the schweren Heeres-Panzerabteilung:
There is one more point you forget; Tiger operated always in groups!
My wish for the Ostheer would be solution with min. of 2 Tigers on the battlefield. Okay...this Tiger had to be weaker then the Wehrmacht Tiger, but Ostheer needs this SYMBOL! ( Tiger - designed as T-34 counter ) on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on July 01, 2010, 06:41:40 PM
I don't see why you would be reluctant to change the tiger with the tiger ace anyway, the ace is much better and Blitz certainly needs the buff. It also needs a way to spend munitions but this is probably beyond the goals of the EF devs.
Just throw blitz nades with MP40 volks. Works well vs British.
The tank doctrines of OF fractions have no abilities to spend their ammo on. Wehrmacht is the most ammo consuming fraction of them all. Just make MP44/shreck storms.

Does anyone use Werhmacht officers? (mortar strike, non doctrinal propaganda)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Red_Stinger on July 01, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
you'll need mechanized repair units at least...Schwere-Panzer Abteilungen (Heavy Panzer Battalions) never operated without them, since Tigers kept breaking down  ;D

About the schweren Heeres-Panzerabteilung:
There is one more point you forget; Tiger operated always in groups!
My wish for the Ostheer would be solution with min. of 2 Tigers on the battlefield. Okay...this Tiger had to be weaker then the Wehrmacht Tiger, but Ostheer needs this SYMBOL! ( Tiger - designed as T-34 counter ) on the battlefield.

+1 I would love to see a Tiger group, with 2 or even 3 tigers. It would be costly, but terribly cool!!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on July 01, 2010, 08:13:20 PM
+1 I would love to see a Tiger group, with 2 or even 3 tigers. It would be costly, but terribly cool!!
Or a T-34 battlehorde. 6 or even 8 T-34.
It would be costly, but terribly cool!!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Pauly3 on July 01, 2010, 10:39:34 PM
yes, i use the officer
he is great
works well when people try to flank you...(force retreat...)
i also like blitz doc cause of stuh(blobkiller) and blitkrieg assault(rapes enemy tanks)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Seeme on July 01, 2010, 11:29:12 PM
Paciat, you always ruin peoples fun >:(
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Toorstain on July 02, 2010, 12:48:31 AM
no reason for blitz? theres not only tiger but stormtroopers stuh also, or those grenades...

Stuh is crap, nades are gimmicky and stormtroopers I have already stated is all that's left. Truly the only reason to go blitz is to get them and nothing else. That's why the old ace should be brought back and put in blitz if the Ostheer's getting tigers.

Stuh is actually pretty good if you micro it right.
I remember a 1v1 match along time ago (before EF) where i kicked ass with it.
Instead of ordering it to attack units, I just made it attack ground. Seriously improves accuracy!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Werwolf on July 02, 2010, 03:26:15 AM
you'll need mechanized repair units at least...Schwere-Panzer Abteilungen (Heavy Panzer Battalions) never operated without them, since Tigers kept breaking down  ;D

About the schweren Heeres-Panzerabteilung:
There is one more point you forget; Tiger operated always in groups!
My wish for the Ostheer would be solution with min. of 2 Tigers on the battlefield. Okay...this Tiger had to be weaker then the Wehrmacht Tiger, but Ostheer needs this SYMBOL! ( Tiger - designed as T-34 counter ) on the battlefield.
..then they probably should be Tiger(P)s, the slightly crappier early versions  :P
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Enrique 'Blackbishop' E. on July 02, 2010, 03:30:24 AM
you'll need mechanized repair units at least...Schwere-Panzer Abteilungen (Heavy Panzer Battalions) never operated without them, since Tigers kept breaking down  ;D

About the schweren Heeres-Panzerabteilung:
There is one more point you forget; Tiger operated always in groups!
My wish for the Ostheer would be solution with min. of 2 Tigers on the battlefield. Okay...this Tiger had to be weaker then the Wehrmacht Tiger, but Ostheer needs this SYMBOL! ( Tiger - designed as T-34 counter ) on the battlefield.
..then they probably should be Tiger(P)s, the slightly crappier early versions  :P
lol... good idea :P, but a lot of people will be disappointed because they wanted a "real" tiger.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 02, 2010, 06:51:05 AM
Stuh is actually pretty good if you micro it right.
I remember a 1v1 match along time ago (before EF) where i kicked ass with it.
Instead of ordering it to attack units, I just made it attack ground. Seriously improves accuracy!
This helps but the constant babysitting is a detriment. The cost is also far too much. 600 is just way more than I'm willing to pay for a high concentration requiring unit that is still only marginal. It can be effective against British emplacements and Soviet blobs though. It's just completely and utterly useless against US. AT guns can 2 hit them. Nobody has actually stated what's wrong with giving Blitz the ace if we give Ostheer non-doctrinal tigers either.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GamblerSK on July 02, 2010, 01:07:10 PM
actualy i just trying to refuse that the blitz tactic with normal tiger is not useless
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Toorstain on July 02, 2010, 01:45:36 PM
Same here...

I would love to see the ace back in. ;D

(Or make the wher tiger limit to 2 tanks, but I know that's not gonna happen and would be to similar to what we are talking about for Ostheer...)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Seeme on July 02, 2010, 02:01:08 PM
Ostheer is going to be a mess at first :)
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on July 02, 2010, 02:44:32 PM
lol... good idea :P, but a lot of people will be disappointed because they wanted a "real" tiger.

yea, a weakened tiger would be annoying. So lets have a real one, without vet. !
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: cephalos on July 02, 2010, 03:46:57 PM
That would be awesome to see Tiger Ace in action again! With his voice and texts from COH - " Let them show the true meaning of terror"  :D
But the Tiger Ace for Blitzkrieg doctrine will modify the existing factions, and as far I remember devs wanted to avoid this.
Tiger Ace for blitzkrieg doctrine, and two tigers for Ostheer - I'm on it :D
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 02, 2010, 05:41:44 PM
Devs are already changing existing factions by using a list provided by GR experts to go off. AT grenades will home to the target and kangs will cost 40 fuel is what I've heard so far.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Enrique 'Blackbishop' E. on July 02, 2010, 05:52:56 PM
Yeah, I would like to see Tiger Ace on blitz and normal tiger on Ostheer. Let's hope that dev's think this as an option ::).
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: HansBlix on July 02, 2010, 06:45:19 PM
What is the diference between a Tiger Ace and a normal Tiger?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 02, 2010, 07:35:27 PM
The tiger ace was what terror doctrine had instead of KT before OF. It was basically a really really fast tiger, that was all round awesome but couldn't get vet (because it practically came with better than vet 3 anyway). It also had a cooler skin and sayings. While we all kind of like the KT now, back when it replaced the ace people were horrified at this monstrosity :P. Some people still wish for the return of the ace.

In those days Blitz could call 2 tigers at once...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: HansBlix on July 02, 2010, 07:53:21 PM
Thx. Couldn't know, I started with OF.

Quote
Yeah, I would like to see Tiger Ace on blitz and normal tiger on Ostheer. Let's hope that dev's think this as an option

I agree. Sounds nice.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: cephalos on July 02, 2010, 08:06:53 PM
And you could call him many times. Well, it sound balanced when we say that bliztkrieg had then two tigers...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Genzero on July 02, 2010, 10:47:41 PM
WOW thx for all the posts guys ;D. Anyways. Iv been looking at the posts. That if the Ostheer were to build Tigers, that the Blitz doc. would be usless. That's not true theirs still all the other stuff you can use like the STUH, (Artillery Tank) StormStrooprs. (Elite Infantry) Yes the tiger was really the only reason going the doc. but you can still use all the other abilities they give you and that you can just keep getting it for 900MP with 3 vet. Though i do like the idea of bring back the Tiger ace it was best tank in the game.

Now if the Ostheer can build tigers they would be No vet they would have to earn it in fights or not get any at all. Now cost would be around 650-900 MP 150-250 foal 14 Pop that's what it is for a blitz tiger so make it what it is for these tigers, No munitions. It's tank really you don't pay munitions for a tank in this game. The limit would vary.

if you are to build it would be 3-6 Because your paying all the amount of resources.

Call in 2 at once limit 3-4 just calling it in from an upgrade that be around 1500-1800MP.

doc. 1 at a time limit of 3-4 900MP each time.

Now lets say you facing ostheer player and he has built 6 tigers he invested pretty much hes hole Military salary for those. Now what were you doing in that time? cuz as soon as hes tanks are gone he is pretty much screwed unless hes got alot of resources.

Thx Guys :D
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on July 02, 2010, 10:57:02 PM
Quote
Yeah, I would like to see Tiger Ace on blitz and normal tiger on Ostheer. Let's hope that dev's think this as an option

I agree. Sounds nice.


Sounds really good so far. I agree as well.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on July 02, 2010, 11:50:26 PM
Quote
Yeah, I would like to see Tiger Ace on blitz and normal tiger on Ostheer. Let's hope that dev's think this as an option
I agree. Sounds nice.
Sounds really good so far. I agree as well.
Blitz wechrmacht has the best MGs, PAKs, Assault infantry, non doctrinal mobile artillery, armored cars.
Its only fair to give them the best COH tank that ever was.  ::)
Why should Germans spend any fuel on their Vet 3 Tigers. They need to be even more OP in late game...

Give TigerAce to the British.  :D
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: TheReaper on July 03, 2010, 01:19:55 AM
Devs are already changing existing factions by using a list provided by GR experts to go off. AT grenades will home to the target and kangs will cost 40 fuel is what I've heard so far.

Is there a word, that replacing the Light AT Halftrank with the Hotchkiss tank? Its really more usefull that that. I dont need the stuka upgrade, but it would be great to have some early panzer support for the greanadiers, I like the fast mobile force. Even it would be remain a reward unit, but not replace the P4 but the AT HT. That would be awesome.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on July 03, 2010, 02:00:03 AM
Devs are already changing existing factions by using a list provided by GR experts to go off. AT grenades will home to the target and kangs will cost 40 fuel is what I've heard so far.
Is there a word, that replacing the Light AT Halftrank with the Hotchkiss tank? Its really more usefull that that. I dont need the stuka upgrade, but it would be great to have some early panzer support for the greanadiers, I like the fast mobile force. Even it would be remain a reward unit, but not replace the P4 but the AT HT. That would be awesome.
Hotchkiss has Stuarts armor so it cant be earlier than a Stuart. You cant get panzers in early game.

But anyway will EF change from an add-on to a mod? Hope not.
AT nades cost less ammo than stickies for a reason. US also has no buildable shrecks so stickies should be better than nades.
Kangaroos can be more Fuel expensive but MP cost should stay the same. Kangaroos are the elite armor of Tommies. Shreck vet 3 grens that are winning a firefight with Riflenade Tommies is just wrong.
Hope that LTs will be MP cheaper but UKs trucks will be more expensive.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Enrique 'Blackbishop' E. on July 03, 2010, 03:57:26 AM
Devs are already changing existing factions by using a list provided by GR experts to go off. AT grenades will home to the target and kangs will cost 40 fuel is what I've heard so far.
Is there a word, that replacing the Light AT Halftrank with the Hotchkiss tank? Its really more usefull that that. I dont need the stuka upgrade, but it would be great to have some early panzer support for the greanadiers, I like the fast mobile force. Even it would be remain a reward unit, but not replace the P4 but the AT HT. That would be awesome.
Hotchkiss has Stuarts armor so it cant be earlier than a Stuart. You cant get panzers in early game.

But anyway will EF change from an add-on to a mod? Hope not.

Rebalancing the vCoH faction was considered, I suppose, days after the "CoHO surprise"; because the balance stuff ideas are from GR experts, those who relic used to talk about opinions to improve the game's balance and they were never listened. So, it's the same add-on with "bugless/balanced" vCoH factions. In this case looks like 1+1=2 than 1-1=0 ;D...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 03, 2010, 06:37:14 AM

Hotchkiss has Stuarts armor so it cant be earlier than a Stuart. You cant get panzers in early game.
Would come at 95 fuel, not that early, and has shit main gun.
But anyway will EF change from an add-on to a mod? Hope not. More like a community bugfix patch, but I agree with you if it goes too far.
AT nades cost less ammo than stickies for a reason. US also has no buildable shrecks so stickies should be better than nades. AT nades cost less munis but have a massive cooldown. They also miss stationary targets sometimes. They need the buff. Also, a PE player won't have shreks if he went T1.
Kangaroos can be more Fuel expensive but MP cost should stay the same. Kind of agree, its the contents that should make the kang expensive in MP, not the vehicle itself.Kangaroos are the elite armor of Tommies. Shreck vet 3 grens that are winning a firefight with Riflenade Tommies is just wrong. For some stupid reason nades are mitigated by elite armour. Riflenade sections are pretty crap versus grens anyway, they're much better against volks and mgs.
Hope that LTs will be MP cheaper but UKs trucks will be more expensive. Don't really care either way, vet stacking needs to go more than anything.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on July 03, 2010, 01:35:03 PM
Hotchkiss has Stuarts armor so it cant be earlier than a Stuart. You cant get panzers in early game.
Would come at 95 fuel, not that early, and has shit main gun.
I meant the upgunned Hothkiss.
Its not as good at sniping infantry as the 50mm Puma but has the same armor penetration stats and does +20% dmg more.
So its a Puma with better armor (BRENproof).
Even US needs 135 Fuel to get an M-8 that needs upgrades as soon as build. Hothkiss - the best light armor in game (when upgunned) could replace AT halftrack but it also needs a Tier 4 upgrade.
Tier 4 upgrade would unlock 2 units then.
Hotchkiss would come at 155 fuel, not that early.

PzIII should be a slower better armored more accurate vs infantry version of a upgunned Hotchkiss.
Quote
AT nades cost less ammo than stickies for a reason. US also has no buildable shrecks so stickies should be better than nades. AT nades cost less munis but have a massive cooldown. They also miss stationary targets sometimes. They need the buff. Also, a PE player won't have shreks if he went T1.
T1 T3 is my favorite start. MP44 have no modifiers (nefs) vs soldier armor while commando stens have 0.5 dmg 0.75acc and lower dmg & acc. This means 3 MP44 squads can rape everything UK has in mid game, including an early Stuart (nades). Than a 1st and 2nd Marder is build to finish off the trucks.
Nades cooldown is lowered if you have healing base (defensive operations) upgrade.
Quote
Hope that LTs will be MP cheaper but UKs trucks will be more expensive. Don't really care either way, vet stacking needs to go more than anything.
I agree on this one. 3 Lts shouldnt be much better than 1 Lt. How fast can the Lee-Endfield be fired?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 03, 2010, 06:56:25 PM
Reminds me of ridiculous stories of US civil war vets who could fire every 20 seconds with their muskets. Such crap...

No player controlled unit should EVER be hit by an AT nade so long as it's engine is still functional.

M8 should be hitting at 125 fuel, not 135.

For once, you actually said something I didn't know. MP44 damage isn't mitigated by soldier or elite armour at all. Amazing... Although I did know that MP44s were awesome against Brits of course. I like T3 for both armoured cars and MP44s but I'm not a fan of the marder, I prefer shreks in halftracks more.

I never get AT nades for use against vehicles but rather for emplacement busting. They 2 hit the crew of a 17 pounder and a 3rd kills it outright.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on July 04, 2010, 02:39:42 AM
Reminds me of ridiculous stories of US civil war vets who could fire every 20 seconds with their muskets. Such crap...

No player controlled unit should EVER be hit by an AT nade so long as it's engine is still functional.
Its hard to keep all youre vechicles allways on the move at top speed. Theres rough terain all over the map and COH tank pathing is preety bad.
Quote
M8 should be hitting at 125 fuel, not 135.
Thats still much more than 95 and that was the point.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: GodlikeDennis on July 04, 2010, 03:44:39 AM
If anyone gets their vehicle hit by an AT nade I would call that one a mistake on the behalf of the allied player and good luck (not good work) by the PE, unless he used in combo with AT half.

I see your point on the M8 tech cost. But the Americans do have greater map control. They can also tech reactively with stickies for their general units to counter the hotchkiss, as it's main gun IS shit especially when there aren't any/many vehicles around at this stage. PE can't cheaply tech to any reliable AT if an M8 comes a knockin' and the game will probably be won right there. It can't be pushed back to the same teching cost as puma because wehrmacht has units that can fill the void beforehand. PE only has pretty much unupgraded PGs. I think that 95 fuel is honestly fine. Remember that US has rangers and airborne readily available, stickies are only 25 fuel and a required upgrade anyway, and an AT gun is only 95 fuel away as well.

Fun fact: The hotchkiss is identical to the stuart without any upgrades.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: vonhaggon on July 13, 2010, 08:58:32 PM
 I dont think making any changes to the existing COH factions is a good idea. The devs know what they doing and so do the BTs. Matching up the balance to suit the existing factions is the way to go. It is easyer and will get things done faster without changing too much of the original game play. Relic did a lot of screwing up when they started nerfing and changing old to match new. Does anyone remember all the damned patches? Creating new to mach the old is the way to go. Do any devs or BTs agree?
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Enrique 'Blackbishop' E. on July 14, 2010, 03:05:39 AM
US vet, sherman crocodile, Brits, PE, ninja pak, and many more issues that should be fixed by relic in the past patches, but that wasn't made and won't happen. If your car has a flat tyre, you shall change it, not match up the car with it. 'nuff said...
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Genzero on July 16, 2010, 09:01:16 PM
i find the sherman is way over powered it can beat a Panzer4 in a 1v1 it omost beats a panther and the panther is even better then a Tiger. Panthers can fire half the range of a 88 and does more damige same with IS2 the IS2 is the same as a T34 (85) when it was better then the tiger idk but thats what iv never understood ya its balance but some things are just a little out of hand
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on July 16, 2010, 09:25:25 PM
i find the sherman is way over powered it can beat a Panzer4 in a 1v1

Thats truely a shame, but that is balance.

Panthers can fire half the range of a 88 and does more damige
True, the pather 75mm couldnt shoot over as long distances as the tiger could. But not half the rage, but i guess balance is good like that. The T. has other ablilities which make it being the most usefull tank in the game.

but thats what iv never understood ya its balance but some things are just a little out of hand

ture. :)

But we gonna get some fixes from the EF team, i just hope they will make 'em good, and wont change too much. But i guess they gonna make that.




Regards,

-V-

Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: vonhaggon on July 16, 2010, 10:17:33 PM
 Hope. Hope is what drives us all to this forum.That, and the love of COH. Let us hope then, that tigers will be as big of a part in Eastern Front as they were in WWII. I hope we can build tigers from factories, and I can think of no better present that the devs can give us. Well, that and  some good arty would be nice.  :)   HOPE!!
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Paciat on July 17, 2010, 12:21:07 AM
I see your point on the M8 tech cost. But the Americans do have greater map control. They can also tech reactively with stickies for their general units to counter the hotchkiss, as it's main gun IS shit especially when there aren't any/many vehicles around at this stage. PE can't cheaply tech to any reliable AT if an M8 comes a knockin' and the game will probably be won right there.
15Fuel - AT halftrack
35Fuel - shrecks
Thats cheap to me.
Also stickies arent realiable! Chasing an armored car with infantry is suecide (and costs 35ammo :D).
You cant expect to to have the best assault rifles+4 men (55fuel) and tanks that are better than anything that US T3 has (75fuel) when US needs to choose between BARs (60 fuel) or ACs (125-135fuel)
Quote
It can't be pushed back to the same teching cost as puma because wehrmacht has units that can fill the void beforehand. PE only has pretty much unupgraded PGs. I think that 95 fuel is honestly fine. Remember that US has rangers and airborne readily available, stickies are only 25 fuel and a required upgrade anyway, and an AT gun is only 95 fuel away as well.
If stickies are required than AT guns (that wont work well vs ACs/light tanks without sticky infantry support) are 120 fuel away.
AT guns should be earlier than tanks (wehrmacht 50mm - 60 fuel, Marders 80 fuel, 17lbs 70fuel, Soviets 30fuel) becouse they are slower than tanks and should set up before tanks come rolling in.
Also remember that PE has Wirblewinds and Hetzers.
Both callins are as usefull as the expensive to maintain and reinforce US elite infantry.
Quote
Fun fact: The hotchkiss is identical to the stuart without any upgrades.
This means it cant be damaged by samllarms but it will defeat a Stuart if upgunned. What quick AT unit will the british have if Cromwell is 215 fuel away and (thats the fun part) 2 50mm Hothkiss can destroy it anyway?
Sappers run slower than light tanks and Churchills are slow too. Remember that counters to Hotchkiss should be earlier and cheaper than this light tank.
If PIAT sappers could move while in ambush (like stormtroopers) and rangers were available at 2CPs than PE could have their very early tanks.

I know that PE is now a little UP but making one of the units 60fuel earlier (think about what you could do with 60 or even only 30 more fuel at the start of the game) wont help to ballance the game.
Making Hotchkiss 5fuel cheaper or giving it better armor (M-10s armor) would be a good solution to the UP French tank.
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Venoxxis on July 17, 2010, 12:35:17 PM
I know that PE is now a little UP but making one of the units 60fuel earlier (think about what you could do with 60 or even only 30 more fuel at the start of the game) wont help to ballance the game.
Making Hotchkiss 5fuel cheaper or giving it better armor (M-10s armor) would be a good solution to the UP French tank.

yea, good point.
But we are going to much offtopic at the moment ;)


What about opening a new thread in the "general suggestions"?



Regards,

-V-
Title: Re: Tiger tanks being built out of Factorys
Post by: Zerstörer on July 17, 2010, 12:54:10 PM
The changes we're making to the vanila balance have nothing to do with the soviets.
In other words we're not adjusting vanila balance to accommodate the soviets.

The changes listed by the Expert community are actually very small in number but with COH even small changes are very important...especially at higher level gaming.

This thread has now run its course and had devolved to totally irrelevant subject which I'm sure we have another thread for. Therefore its locked

Cheers