Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Hurson on May 23, 2010, 08:46:02 PM
-
Use this build order for instant victory.
- Ingenery - Command Squad
- Have the Ingenerys build a barracks and the support barracks.
- Strelky - Strelky - Strelky - Strelky .....
Use the Ingenery for capping purpouses only, and have the rest fight the Germans. You don't need them to cap any fuel or munitions since the game will likely be over before you find any use for them.
Strelkys are cheaper than Panzer Grenadiers and volks and beat them in most cases. The fire-up from the CS + the mortarfire makes life hard for MG-42s and motorcycles are useless versus CS and Strelkys.
It's just stupid to use snipers versus them since they are so many.
As PE you might try to go straight for a IHT but I didn't have any luck with it either.
I consider myself a decent player and I had absolutely NO chance against that as Wehr or PE. I was pushed back to the base within three minutes.
This might sound like a strategy, but since it is super OP I decided to put it here...
I know what some of you think. This is a result of a nerdrage from a loss. But i really feel that this and the super lend lease Sherman requires some attention from the devs. I really can't think of any way to stop those strelkys.
-
I can confirm what Hurson said - in 1vs1 it is very effective "strategy"... unfortunatelly. I tried it as Wehr, PE and as Soviet vs decent players, not AI. Especially PE PGs are owned really quickly by Strelky and the time PE player is able to get MP44 Soviet has like whole map under control and is pulling out armors. It's not the Strelky only, it's the combination with Commander which is really hard to crack. In some way it resembles the matches vs US - hard spam of rifles so PE player is pulled back in early game unable to get at least 50% of map control - but vs Soviet it's like double that hard now.
The solution could be some of those:
- make Strelky cost more
- make Strelky available slightly later (f.e. after some "Enlist upgrade" 150MP 25Fuel)
- nerf a Commander squad (less armor/HP)
-
Finally someone whos not a noob on the balance forums with brains! I salute you Hurson!
From my earlier post:
AB armor for Strelky right off the bat and a 100 munis 25 fuel universal upgrade...why not just stop pretending they actually have to earn it and just give it to them right off the production line? This is ridiculous. American rifles get universal BARs that cost more but no universal elite armor. Germans get vet but no universal weapons. Wtf do the Strelky get? Universal weapons stronger than BARs, and universal AB armor. Give either universal elite armor upgrade and make them buy the damn weapons individually like Wehr or give them universal weapons upgrade and make them earn the vet / armor individually like USA.
-
Agree I have posted a two replays against a good player just to show how easy it is to win with it.
Strelky should not be avaleble so soon this need to be changed somehow. I suggeste to make the tent and the support barrack each cost 20 fuel and than have people start with 20 fuel so you can't have both at the start of the macth and you slow down the Soviet teching a little.
Their are many other think in the Soviet army that is OP, but this take the price. Like Hurson said instant victory.
-
Finally someone whos not a noob on the balance forums with brains! I salute you Hurson!
From my earlier post:
AB armor for Strelky right off the bat and a 100 munis 25 fuel universal upgrade...why not just stop pretending they actually have to earn it and just give it to them right off the production line? This is ridiculous. American rifles get universal BARs that cost more but no universal elite armor. Germans get vet but no universal weapons. Wtf do the Strelky get? Universal weapons stronger than BARs, and universal AB armor. Give either universal elite armor upgrade and make them buy the damn weapons individually like Wehr or give them universal weapons upgrade and make them earn the vet / armor individually like USA.
They get an armor upgrade? Didnt know that. Theres nothing about that in the changelog (exept that Strelky are 'Airborne' like most of Soviet men).
But from experience I know that Paratroopers fight PG better than Rifleman. :(
Soviet WSC needs to cost Fuel (30) so that Strelky wont apear as faster than 4 men PG squads. Their armor should be changed to infantry too.
-
Airborne armor is stronger armor than regular the regular infantry armor volks, rifles, and vet0-1 grens get, and also stronger than the soldier armor pgrens get I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong about the soldier armor, but I'm nearly 100% sure about the infantry armor type being weaker. Now, I honestly don't mind if the USSR weapons crews and snipers get the airborne armor, because they can't reman.
The Strelky also get a weapons upgrade that costs less than USA BARs, and are more effective than them too. Add that to the fact that they get Airborne armor type and it becomes very OP. Even grenadiers have to buy their vet2 to get elite armor. Rifles get BARs weapons upgrade, but they never have access to superior armor.
I don't mind how early they come as much as their super effectiveness. Strelkys get both weapons uprade and they get superior armor right off the bat and that is the problem. Give them one or the other for a reasonable price and make them work hard individually for the one you didn't give them.
PS: If even vet3 grens get knocked down by these guys, I really don't want to know what happens to Pgren squads...
-
We are currently talking about remaking the requirements, current requirements requiring Support or Tank will (if it goes where I think it will) changed to required instead of Support one of the two support upgrade, and same with the tank, one of the two tank upgrades.
-
There's two things I've really noticed about the Strelky since patch 1.10:
Other infantry have a very hard time killing them
They tend to kill other infantry very, very quickly.
What about reducing the squad size to 4 or 6, reducing the cost slightly, and then reducing their accuracy and armor.
Smaller squad sizes would keep them from outnumbering other infantry so badly, and an accuracy/armor nerf would give other inf a chance against them.
Also earlier on a trench of strelky, a trench with command squad (barracks+inf tent), and a MG building managed to kill an armored car.
Just wondering how the heck that managed to happen and which of these had effective vs light vehicle weapons?
-
There's two things I've really noticed about the Strelky since patch 1.10:
Other infantry have a very hard time killing them
They tend to kill other infantry very, very quickly.
What about reducing the squad size to 4 or 6, reducing the cost slightly, and then reducing their accuracy and armor.
Smaller squad sizes would keep them from outnumbering other infantry so badly, and an accuracy/armor nerf would give other inf a chance against them.
If they change the armor type that wouldn't be necessary.
Also earlier on a trench of strelky, a trench with command squad (barracks+inf tent), and a MG building managed to kill an armored car.
Just wondering how the heck that managed to happen and which of these had effective vs light vehicle weapons?
Of which "Armored Car" are you talking about? Wehr Sdkfz 234 or PE SdKfz 222?
-
We are currently talking about remaking the requirements, current requirements requiring Support or Tank will (if it goes where I think it will) changed to required instead of Support one of the two support upgrade, and same with the tank, one of the two tank upgrades.
It's not the requirements that's the problem... Making them come later in the game is still not going to solve anything; they're still going to rape everyone. I don't get why this is so hard to understand. I've already mentioned the actual problems.
-
We are currently talking about remaking the requirements, current requirements requiring Support or Tank will (if it goes where I think it will) changed to required instead of Support one of the two support upgrade, and same with the tank, one of the two tank upgrades.
It's not the requirements that's the problem... Making them come later in the game is still not going to solve anything; they're still going to rape everyone. I don't get why this is so hard to understand. I've already mentioned the actual problems.
I think the requirements are part of the problem, they appear too early.
-
We are currently talking about remaking the requirements, current requirements requiring Support or Tank will (if it goes where I think it will) changed to required instead of Support one of the two support upgrade, and same with the tank, one of the two tank upgrades.
It's not the requirements that's the problem... Making them come later in the game is still not going to solve anything; they're still going to rape everyone. I don't get why this is so hard to understand. I've already mentioned the actual problems.
I think the requirements are part of the problem, they appear too early.
It might be part of the problem, but it sure isn't the main one.
-
Map: Zhytomyr
Opponent: 2x AI - Soviet (Normal)
Allied: 2x PLAYER - WH + AI - WH (Expert)
Dang. I sent up a small WH taskforce 11 mins into the game to retake a key strategic point in Zhytomyr. They were composed of:
- 1x SdKfz. 201 halftrack carrying 1 V2 squad of Volks with MP40s (flanking unit)
- 1x Schwimmwagen (flanking unit)
- 2x V2 snipers
- 1x V2 Pioneer squad with Flammenwerfer 42
- 1x V2 Grenadier squad with dual LMG42s
- 1x V2 Volks with MP40s
they encountered at least 2 squads of upgraded Strelky, a fresh squad of conscripts, a Major, and 2 surviving V1 PTRD gunners (plus a garrisoned squad with an LMG inside a nearby structure).
...needless to say, most of my small taskforce was shot to pieces, and the halftrack was blown up. Only 2 Volks, 1 Grenadier, and a damaged Schwimmwagen made it back to my lines. On the other hand, the AI was left with 1 PTRD gunner, a barely-wounded Major, and at least 3/5 of its Strelky squads intact. >:( And that was only a small part of the entire battle. AT squads supported by Strelky and Ingenery were also able to destroy a lot of my Pz. IVs along with my infantry support. The game was all over 30 more minutes later after my base was bombed to hell by arty and waves of Strelky, Shermans, IS-2s and T-34s overwhelmed my defenses (I outlasted my ally by about 5 mins). :'(
I consider myself as a decent player, but these Super-Strelky squads make winning games as PE or WH extremely difficult. :( On the other hand, it's all too easy to own the map as the Soviets (I won 2 successive skirmishes with them against Hard AI WH+PE)
-
Please refrain from using a one-time anecdote in your balance suggestions (especially against enemy AI), they use up a lot of space while missing important details. I do agree though that you can get strelky too fast now but I don't think they are too strong (still currently deciding, airborne armour is very good), only at that stage. The idea of making barracks & support barracks cost 20 fuel but give fuel at the start is a good one. Also, I still think Soviets should have a jeep-like unit from the barracks to give some variety to the early build order.
-
There's two things I've really noticed about the Strelky since patch 1.10:
Other infantry have a very hard time killing them
They tend to kill other infantry very, very quickly.
What about reducing the squad size to 4 or 6, reducing the cost slightly, and then reducing their accuracy and armor.
Smaller squad sizes would keep them from outnumbering other infantry so badly, and an accuracy/armor nerf would give other inf a chance against them.
If they change the armor type that wouldn't be necessary.
Also earlier on a trench of strelky, a trench with command squad (barracks+inf tent), and a MG building managed to kill an armored car.
Just wondering how the heck that managed to happen and which of these had effective vs light vehicle weapons?
Of which "Armored Car" are you talking about? Wehr Sdkfz 234 or PE SdKfz 222?
I think it was a Panzer armored car, but don't hold me to it. I was facing both wehrmacht and panzer AIs and I didn't look much at the armored car.
-
Actually WH get elite armour AND regeneration. US rifles get nades,stickies(which reduces vet requirement),Bars(with suppression!) and the most powerful vet benefits in the game. Lets not forget they can pick up shit loads of weapons AND can retreat and be preserved.
Before you cry about the airborne armour, check its benefits compared to elite and soldier and stupendous vet benefits of US riflemen.
I'm not sayiong its all perfect now but reading airborne armour and crying OP is a bit....crap
-
Actually WH get elite armour AND regeneration. US rifles get nades,stickies(which reduces vet requirement),Bars(with suppression!) and the most powerful vet benefits in the game. Lets not forget they can pick up shit loads of weapons AND can retreat and be preserved.
Before you cry about the airborne armour, check its benefits compared to elite and soldier and stupendous vet benefits of US riflemen.
I'm not sayiong its all perfect now but reading airborne armour and crying OP is a bit....crap
Ignorance is a bliss.
I'd want to know the difference between the infantry soldier airborne and elite armor type values then. It'd be great if you would share, because I'm still fairly confident AB armor is stronger than infantry armor type value at the very least. Regeneration is 0.022 for the grens...big deal. Rifles earn their vet individually. Don't expect every single riflesquad to have vet unless you're a total noob who keeps losing units over and over again to them. They have to work for it individually like grens have to work for their 75 munis a piece weapons.
AB armor or not what do Strelky actually have to work for? The cheap-ass upgrade that gives universal guns cheaper and stronger than BARs? Who needs BAR-like suppression when you can just kill with more deadly weapons instead? Stickies? Who needs them when you can wipe your opponent off the map before he can even dream of fielding any serious vehicle threats? What kind of noob needs to retreat with the Strelky in this patch? OK so your Strelkys die...big deal...make more; its not like they even cost a lot. Pick stuff up? This is the USSR we're talking about...what kind of noob can't find a squad without enough members to pick up a few weapons?
Yes, I guess the Strelky need more members...since all 6 of them get the ppsh and dingleberry can't find another squad to pick up weapons, I guess we need to give them 2 more members so they can pick up the panzershreck too!
O wait...maybe you were talking about how they can't reman their precious mortar...yes...your weapons teams are actually in danger, because the Strelky aren't strong enough to protect them from enemy infantry, right?
This is a great mod, the balance is just sometimes unstable. Overall I still love it; I just hope we get consistent balance so more people will be willing to play.
-
Despite chancellor's aggressive style debating, which is NOT a virtue, I actually agree with him now. After extensive testing with my friends I find strelky far too good, even if they only appear after the krieg barracks.
Airborne armour gives -25% received damage, and a further -25% while they are moving. Compare this to:
Infantry: no benefit
Soldier: -25% damage
Heroic: -25% dmg -15% accuracy, good against snipers
Elite: -25% dmg -25% acc
This makes it roughly equal to heroic out of the box without the sniper bonus.
In my tests it was found that a base strelky squad was approximately equal to a vet 2 gren squad. I think even if they cost 280 they would be too good (still cheaper than grens + vet cost). Instead I would ask that the devs make them infantry armour once more.
Also a reminder to everyone not to use RB strelky this patch due to the crashes.
-
No offense guys, but do you have any beta testers? I'm sure you could eaisly get some good players (ie. lvl 15+ in 1v1 automatch) who would want to balance test your patches before they are released, because so far, all of your major patches brought new imbalances that are pretty obvious. I'm not trying to be offensive here, just a suggestion.