The Waffen SS didn't play a very important role on the Eastern Front until the Battle of Berlin, so I say no
Yup the Terror is something similar to that.
Just like when you pick PE the commander says "Burn them out!!!- We now have Incindiary grenades, to help eradicate the disease that is our enemy" or something like that. Its implied that they are a Kampfgruppe formed of a SS Panzergrenadier Division and some other elements. So they have all kinds of soldiers. Just can't directly call'em SS but thats the only real problem. So now we just need to make a good unit to represent the SS and give it a good name.
Out of the historical view the Waffen-SS was a high
trained ( okay. That doesent count on all SS-Units!!! )
and high motivated group. They fought without regard
and were noted by a number of brutal war crimes.
Out of the historical view the Waffen-SS was a high
trained ( okay. That doesent count on all SS-Units!!! )
and high motivated group. They fought without regard
and were noted by a number of brutal war crimes.
And the Red Army raped the half of the Eastern Europe. They fought for Vodka. The German regime and the soviet were the same, I'm not seeing any of the comments about the crimes the soviets did.
It's just a historycally game and simulates battles. Don't take it serious....
Well. I'm against the Waffen-SS.
That have some reasons i will explaine u:
All in all i have "nothing" against SS.-troops in a game
but i ask me what will be the benefit for the game?
CoH take place in the 2. ww and "simulate" battles
between the axis, alliies and red troops.
Out of the historical view the Waffen-SS was a high
trained ( okay. That doesent count on all SS-Units!!! )
and high motivated group. They fought without regard
and were noted by a number of brutal war crimes.
Out of the perspective of CoH i have to ask me what
such a troop would bring to the game?
Out of my view it would be just the name and nothing more. CoH-battles are to small and to "simple structured"
to show the realy side of the Waffen-SS.
Okay. Some of u will say that SS-Units will be heavy armed, heavy to suppress and extreme feared units one the battlefield. My question is; why does such a troop with "elite status" had to be called SS?
When u just want to have "elite units" whats about "Großdeutschland" or a more "abstract name"?
So when someone can explain me the benefits for the CoH i would be the last one who would boycott this idea...
The Waffen SS didn't play a very important role on the Eastern Front until the Battle of Berlin, so I say no
ouch ,Not everyone lives in Germany. I, for example, am American. Why should I follow a totalitarian, stupid law that doesn't even exist in my own country and probalbly never will because of the consitution and right of free speech of the USA?
But umm, isn't it a very thin line naming a unit SS due to German Law?
SS will be incorporated in the same way as Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite. They won't specifically be called 'SS', but certain units' uniforms and loadout will indicate this.
Relic didn't call Riflemen 'US Army Riflemen', and they didn't call Stormtroopers 'SS Stormtroopers'. There is no reason to call our elite troops the SS, just to prove that we can write 'SS' in our game.
So I guess I'll be seeing fantasy units to fill in for the SS because Merkel says "No no" then?SS will be incorporated in the same way as Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite. They won't specifically be called 'SS', but certain units' uniforms and loadout will indicate this.
Relic didn't call Riflemen 'US Army Riflemen', and they didn't call Stormtroopers 'SS Stormtroopers'. There is no reason to call our elite troops the SS, just to prove that we can write 'SS' in our game.
ouch ,
But umm, isn't it a very thin line naming a unit SS due to German Law?
Quite frankly, I don't care what Merkel thinks. Taboo or not, using the unit's branch in its name 'just because' seems out of place when it comes to unit names in Company of Heroes.I was thinking just "Waffen-SS Infantry" or something.
We will not be using fictional units. In fact, the names we have prepared for SS units are probably more historically accurate than 'SS Badass' or whatever you were hoping for.
The Waffen SS should even have their own doctrine in my opinion. Their contributions on the Eastern Front were undeniable, they demand representation of some sort.+1
I think that's a pretty good compromise. After all, the case that the Waffen-SS was a branch (like Marines, Airborne, etc) and not a denominator is pretty solid.
HyperSniper999:
Get over it.
That aside, the ban on Nazi-Symbolism goes all the way back to the terms of the Allied occupation. So, as an American it all still comes back to you.
Wartyx:
Can you tell me what pattern the Waffen-SS inspired unit(s) will wear? I'm really into camo-patterns, and I'm just curious whether it'll be plane-tree (platanenmuster), oak-leaf (Eichenmuster), pea-dot (Erbsenmuster) or whatever?
Quite frankly, I don't care what Merkel thinks. Taboo or not, using the unit's branch in its name 'just because' seems out of place when it comes to unit names in Company of Heroes.
We will not be using fictional units. In fact, the names we have prepared for SS units are probably more historically accurate than 'SS Badass' or whatever you were hoping for.
Now I confused with the Gestapo too! :D I was thinking that the nazi party sends tere some agency to ensure, every order is accompilshed. I know there is a chain of command in the military, but I don't have any idea to integrate the doctrinal ability to the doctrine. That's how Gestapo came in. Any Idea, Lord Rommel?
I'm just brainstorming if there would be a doctrine represents the ss, what would be like. That's why Skorzeny's Panther there. ;) I replaced the Ferdinand to the panther.
Anyway, I'm in a research of the history of the ss and special operation squads, so I updating the doctrine to fit the Ostheer maybe.
Thanks the feedback guys! ;D
I'd love to see the SS in the OstHeer.
QuoteI'd love to see the SS in the OstHeer.
It is my unit concept.
Großdeutschland sqad
"Born in blood, live in Hell and inspired by the Valkyre"
http://kepfeltoltes.hu/100527/gdvolstad_1__www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg (http://kepfeltoltes.hu/100527/gdvolstad_1__www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg)
Cost: 450 MP
Abilities:
Ability 1: Add one or two light MG34s to squad weapons complement (75 munitions)
Ability 2: Add one or two PPSh41s to squad weapons complement (75 munitions)
Ability 3: Add one or two MP40s to squad weapons complement (50 munitions)
Ability 4: Use med-pack (35 munitions)
Ability 5: Throw bundled grenade (40 munitions)
SS Heavy Panzer Battalion support
cost-2000mp,8CP
2 tigers
1 king tiger
truck with repair squad(would work like WH repair bunker and needed to be set up to start repairs)
abilities
-tank horror, even sound of tigers will make russian infantry retreat(active-15 seconds, cooldown 70 seconds)
-rapid fire,sacrifce mobilty to tear apart t-34's and other soviet tanks fast and from safe distance
-top speed ,take them by suprise and make chaos behind russian lines(50 munitions,cooldown-50 second)
well..yeah this would be a bit too over powered ;DQuoteSS Heavy Panzer Battalion support
cost-2000mp,8CP
2 tigers
1 king tiger
truck with repair squad(would work like WH repair bunker and needed to be set up to start repairs)
abilities
-tank horror, even sound of tigers will make russian infantry retreat(active-15 seconds, cooldown 70 seconds)
-rapid fire,sacrifce mobilty to tear apart t-34's and other soviet tanks fast and from safe distance
-top speed ,take them by suprise and make chaos behind russian lines(50 munitions,cooldown-50 second)
Wtf???? Ballance?
Like i had already written;
I personally wont have problems with a unit called "SS-Unit"
but i got a lot of PNs, mails and feedback of a number of sources and all in all i know that there is a number of people which are totally against the Waffen-SS.
I personally prefer a neutral calling because out of my view it is a good and acceptable compromise.
the Red Army raped the half of the Eastern Europe. They fought for Vodka. The German regime and the soviet were the same(http://www.playcast.ru/uploads/2008/05/08/567574.jpg)They raped the half of the Eastern Europe for Vodka.
I believe that we should not add the SS, the Panzer Elite is the disguised Waffen-SS.
Quote from: UeArtemisI believe that we should not add the SS, the Panzer Elite is the disguised Waffen-SS.
Sorry, but I have to correct you here: The Panzer Elite is supposed to be the Panzer Lehr Division - Wehrmacht, not Waffen-SS.
I think it was simply an expropriation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expropriation) of the Wartime.Dear UeArtemis!
I am hungarian citizen, and noble. My famili has a mill and many factory in the war and never make millitary equipment. But when the russians and his loyalists came to hungary stolen in the name of communism. My famili was made flour and give bread for hungarian peaples in the war. Vorosilov Marshall stolen my grandmothers (grand Barones) residence, and take my famili to the street. Also stole 4 car 2 truck, and all furniture in the house. This house was a Russian HQ in budapest.
My grandfather was killed in the war by russian, but he never fight just work in the flour factory. This is my family storry and this was true. The Russians was agressive and brutal peaple in the war by civilians.
I think that we do not need another German faction. I want to see the Hungarian tanks in the game.
I like 40M Turan II.
when screaming on the Russians how they raped German women etc...First they were Soviets, then, it is true there were rather few individuals who lacked discipline. Rapists were shot on sight. German women could ask for abortion if they said they were raped. Also, most of the soldiers were older, cause the young generation was killed by nazis. Also, even if there was some raping, it is too little to tell the truth. If Stalin was as merciful as Hitler was, I wonder if instead of raping, some 15 million or more German civilians would be killed or more for more Lebensraum. When western barbarians kill, its hushed up, but western propaganda seems to equalize some raping with one of the biggest mass murders. Also the anti-Russian russophobic propaganda implies, no matter Jugashvili was the leader, it is always bad Russians. Cold war "over"...not. They scream about Jews being the innocent victims. But how many non-Jews died? Their lives arent more precious than any other. But theyre given attention by media...and who owns them...
not far away from where I live, SS rounded up civilians, some were shot, some were cut by saws used for cutting wood...
this is just a part of almost endless stories of how the Vaterland was coool and the SS were real pros at everything...exceptionally at losing brains. Not to mention going to a hospital and killing everyone there.
if we want to include unwarranted murder and pillaging... hell, we can then extend this to the blockade of Berlin if you want, and add the people starving until the Western Allies got the Berlin Airlift going on at the cost of human lives because of the Soviet Government´s son-of-bitchiness. And how about Russian troops raping women just liberated from concentration camps?
I´m sure the German people have tons of happy stories to tell about the Russian occupiers too.
TheReaper, I think you are refering to "North-Korea"
That being said: Can we PLEASE get back on topic? Thank you in advance.
We already have the ss, Storm troopers and some pe things, so I think we should put it in the obsteer just like they did with other fractions.I agree , something like
I don't see why the SS troops shouldn't be called as such, theBut you're not playing as them, sometimes they may be allied, but you aren't actually playing or using them.
SS are already mentioned several times in the single-player campaigns and random soldier chatter.
listen to Rommel...SS will not be included (at least not by the name of SS)
also Griptonix, you have a strange signature that could lead people to odd coclusions (like you were a SS fanboy >:()
I don't see why the SS troops shouldn't be called as such, theBut you're not playing as them, sometimes they may be allied, but you aren't actually playing or using them.
SS are already mentioned several times in the single-player campaigns and random soldier chatter.
listen to Rommel...SS will not be included (at least not by the name of SS)Yes I sure am an SS fan boy! I think they were an awesome group of fighters, very effective in combat, and a major fighting arm of the German military. They should be included in the game for those reasons. All sides commited crimes and did terrible things during the war, and the actions of a handful of the SS divisions shouldn't restrict them from being included in the game.
also Griptonix, you have a strange signature that could lead people to odd coclusions (like you were a SS fanboy >:()
One thing is have the units of Waffen SS in game and another is its naming. As for unit itself I think it has to be a part of the Ostheer without any doubt, simply because it was a part of EF and had foufght many important battles.
Problem is naming the unit "SS" which:
- maybe be offensive for some people
- is against a law in some countries
My both grandfathers fought in WW2, one as member of Hlinka's Guards - which was practically fashist volunteer troop in Slovakia (similar to SS), he fought f.e. also in Italy. This grandpa finds offensive the NKVD naming, red stars and all communist symbols. However these are not against a law in any country.
Second grandfather was first part of Slovak Army which helped in initial phase of Barbarossa and somewhere near Krym campaign he deserted and joined Slovak resistance army which fought with Soviets vs Axis. Then in engineer troop fought in Slovakia later as partisan and part of resistance, blowing up railways, bunkers and bridges. He was also a member of communist party and he on the other hand hated all nazi symbols and its representatives. In this case such thing IS actually incorporated in a law of our country (and in other countries in EU too) where is forbidden to show or present nazi symbols. It's against a law and that is the problem.
I personally wouldn't mind naming the unit even "Waffen SS" or similar but unfortunatelly it is against a law. That is why I think it should be incorporated but it should have some neutral name like Werwolf suggested or "Stosstruppen", "Assault squad", "Stormtroopers", "Shock troops"' "Storm squad" etc.
As for the problem that some people might find it offensive, this could be said also about red stars and NKVD too. And those things actually are part of game so I don't think it should stop devs from putting them into game. As said - it was a part of the history.
A trailer of the fictional "re-re-release" of Saving Private Ryan is then shown where similar edits have been made; the soldiers' guns have been digitally changed to walkie talkies, and the word "Nazi" has been changed to "persons with political differences". The four complain about how directors edit their movies to make them more family-friendly or politically correct. Finally, the movie they came to see appears, but not before a banner is displayed on the screen (and also read by an announcer) to note the word "Wookiee" has been changed to "hair challenged animal" and that the entire cast has been digitally replaced by Ewoks.
I think most of you forget, that the majority of the Waffen-SS was in no way "better", more professionel or anything like that than the Wehrmacht.
After all, the impression of their "eliteness" was based on a very, very few hand-selected units, which indeed were equipped better than other units and fight till their death, when Wehrmacht-units would have instead retreated, reinforced and built up a new line rather than dying for an unimportant piece of land a complete retard think it has to be held till the last bullet is shot.
I think most of you forget, that the majority of the Waffen-SS was in no way "better", more professionel or anything like that than the Wehrmacht.
After all, the impression of their "eliteness" was based on a very, very few hand-selected units, which indeed were equipped better than other units and fight till their death, when Wehrmacht-units would have instead retreated, reinforced and built up a new line rather than dying for an unimportant piece of land a complete retard think it has to be held till the last bullet is shot.
SS where brutal and violent soldiers, more than any others element of allied forces, including soviet army. Their purpose was, like ostheer, to exterminate soviet union, but their fanatism allowed them to slaughter civilians by thousands when a basic german soldier cant, because of his humanity. SS are, in my eyes, not only bad troops comparing to others Heer Divisions, but also massive murderers without pity....So you're saying that my great-grandfather was a mass-murderer?? Be careful with your words, Kamerad. Please don't make hasty generalizations based on the actions of a minority. The Waffen-SS was different from the Einsatzgruppen and the Allgemeine-SS (concentration camp guards), both of which I think you are referring to.
Not sure where this debate is going guys. We've made it quite clear that we won't name any unit as 'SS' no matter what the historical arguments may be about the waring nations.+1
In all armies ,without real exception, there were units,soldiers,commanders who in one way or another were involved in war crimes as the war dragged on. There was also a lot of ideology involved in that war, making it all the more bitter.
As the winners are always the ones who write the history in the following years, you'll always have a lot more focus/examination directed on the war crimes of the losers while anything nasty from the winning side gets blurred/brushed aside as much as possible. This makes the winner feel all the better about the outcome of the war creating a much larger moral victory over the opponent.
The Nazis bombed London and other cities with the sole aim to kill civilians and promoting terror-War crime
British/US firebombed Dresden and other cities with the sole aim of killing civilians and promoting terror-War Crime
US nuked 2 islands full of civilians promoting terror-War Crime
There is only one war crime/atrocity people know/remember despite the fact that all the others actually caused a lot more civilian victims.
War is an ugly business where the 'civil rules' quickly blur/evaporate regardless of age. Its as dirty now, as it was in ww2. What constituted a war crime back then, constitutes a war crime now.
As it it was back then, so it is now, the winner writes the history and decides what is labeled a war crime or collateral damage and who gets prosecuted (You'll never see a the winner get prosecuted regardless of the blatant truth)
The 'Charlemagne' division was as brutal as any other SS division on the eastern front, perhaps more! They are regarded has traitors by the entire France. I approve totally the execution of them, because thats the treatment for the "traitres à la Patrie". They were scum, and France is very ashamed by these men.
EDIT: Zerstörer, you've forgot soviet, who bombs Finnish and Germans cities when they can, with Bombers or even with artillery. Some cities where properly destroyed: my mother borned in Beelitz, near Berlin, and she tell me that the citie was entirely devastated. For the same 'reason' that British or american.
I don't see why
I think people just want SS in because it is the SS
Like people want a super heavy tank just because its a
super heavy tank
Or hey it might just be me thinking of the british commandos throwing their uniform at the ground as the first name of them had the shortening of SS
There is something wrong with the youth today, why are they seeking the bad and terrible to be shown all the while it just feels like its to be in solely for the reason ''well because''
QuoteThere is something wrong with the youth today, why are they seeking the bad and terrible to be shown all the while it just feels like its to be in solely for the reason ''well because''
We are playing a game that deals with one of the MOST DEVASTATING WARS IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
If I were a moralist prude like you, I would start with that.