Messages

1

Balance Discussion / Re: Soviet Infantry

« on: January 31, 2010, 12:03:53 PM »

Conscripts (veted or not) are certainly good for one thing - guarding the resources. If you play against the AI - you`ll definitely use this. they cost no pop and if you put them in some building they can survive for quite long.

I agree they are good in the early game. They do their job and then are soon obsolete. If you keep making them once grenadiers are fielded you will get caught pouring MP into this without any good effect. What to do in the early-mid/mid game to move onto better infantry that will allow you to keep pace with axis? That is what my post is about. I think possibly the answer is that strelky are simply not good enough to carry the soviets through the middle game.

But to be honest, except T-34/85 and PPSH Strelky upgrade, there is not a single useful 200/300MUN upgrade, and even so after these two it almost the end game and I rarely sow anyone make any other upgrade but these two.

The strelky upgrade is ok, it makes reasonable infantry, but unfortunately they are soon outclassed by any axis infantry with vet. This is a danger since if you blew 200mun upgrading strelky you could be waiting some time for your next 200mun to upgrade the guards. The guards upgrade is outstanding - they are crack infantry and if you can get them out early they can dominate, and even in late game can handle elite axis infantry. Actually the other upgrade you are forgetting is the very handy engineers upgrade.

i think the guards are a little too strong i think
cause they have good grenade abilities can't be supressed
good armor good rifles an they are most of all too cheap i think

Hmmm yes and no. If they are rushed as I often yes they are quite devastating, perhaps too much so. The immunity to suppression is too much I agree (a nasty flashback to how panzer grenadiers used to just run past the US 30cal MG). However for late game axis infantry they definitely need to be as tough as they are, and their grenade abilities are important for them to be able to compete.
Post Merge: January 31, 2010, 06:01:57 PMI noticed the v1.02 patch has made some changes to the strelky. Not quite sure how these will measure up in terms of carrying the soviet through the middle game but will report back. On my initial test I couldn't see any of the squad weapon upgrade options that were now meant to available.

2

Balance Discussion / Soviet Infantry

« on: January 28, 2010, 09:47:27 AM »

CoH:EF v1.01

Congratulations to the makers of this mod for a superb job indeed. I am quite impressed in general with the balance currently considering this mod is just released. By far and away much better than the day one balance of CoH:Opposing Fronts.

Despite the complaints of many a noob the early game balance is the high point for me. A very interesting fight, with the biggest negative being the unarmed members of the conscript squads always running out of cover (causing squad suppression and manpower loss). I also quite like the armor depot too for balance.

It's in the mid game that I starting to think the Soviet has some design flaws with their infantry. For starters, the conscript squads because complete rubbish at this stage and one needs better infantry. This is where the options are a little puzzling.

Probably at this point you will build a support centre or hold out a little longer to get a tank depot, either which unlocks the strelky. But vanilla strelky are not much better than conscripts it seems. So to get something that will hold up to axis infantry you really need to do some research for one of your infantry types.

Quite bizarrely all three types of infantry cost 200 munitions to upgrade (and will not affect existing units so what you have on the field at this stage is almost zero value junk). This seems strange. Since by now you should be able to build strelky the conscripts upgrade seems completely redundant. Upgraded strelky are not too flash compared to vetted wehr troops but a damn sight better than conscripts.

If you have a fuel advantage you may want to place both tank depot and supply centre, research the guards upgrade and produce them. These are excellent infantry and remain competitive even in the very late game.

As I write this thread it's becoming clearer what had been bothering me: the research upgrade costs of infantry. There needs to be an incentive to produce and research finer increments of better infantry rather than just jump form the very bottom to the very top. Only if I am at a bad fuel disadvantage will I make strelky and vetted strelky to get me through the middle game. Tbh, those games usually go bad because strelky don't seem too great, and once you blow the munitions on their upgrade you further delay any chance of vetted guards appearing. Vetted conscripts seems to have no place in the world.

Post Merge: January 28, 2010, 10:15:48 AMA friend just suggested perhaps the conscripts upgrade be made to affect existing units. I think this could be an interesting option for a situation where you had invested a lot in early canon fodder and want to turn that horde into something half decent for a second wave ready to go.

3

Balance Discussion / Re: Potential Solution for Early-Game imbalance

« on: January 28, 2010, 07:51:14 AM »

Xeno,

Yes, that IS my idea of balance!  You got that right on the button.  The mechanic that allows units to crawl away from suppressing units after a short time still works with our lowly conscripts. 

Stan I appreciate the effort you put into your research but I cannot agree with your findings at all. Soviets do not have retreat. That is a HUGE disadvantage versus all other factions infantry which can just bail when things too hot to handle and avoid big losses (an MG getting swamped for example). Literally the soviets must rely on the charge command to break suppression or it's just pure carnage. Crawling out takes a long time, and if there is any axis infantry on standby at the time it will just be a pure massacre if the soviets cannot break suppression. The soviet must wisely use the charge ability. It's an interesting part of the game and actually the best in terms of soviet balance.

4

Balance Discussion / Re: Early Game Balance - By Force

« on: January 27, 2010, 09:00:49 AM »

The problem is that they slaughter Volks...

So what is Wehrmacht supposed to do about the command squad? Machine Gun crew is useless and so are Volks?

It's basically an invincible early game unit..

I do not agree. When you say the volks get "slaughtered" by the command squad are you talking about a volks squad in cover and firing at range (at which their rifles perform best)? I am not seeing this at all. I am having no dramas wehr vs soviet early game.

The command squad costs 350mp, and is limited to one squad. Considering what absolute rubbish conscripts are it needs to be good. And it really is not that flash. There is always a chance of a lucky early kill of the major in the squad too which removes all its powers.

Keep in mind the soviets have no retreat unlike the wehr. There is always a way out as wehr if you get into a situation where you can take serious losses. The soviets must rely on the commanders charge to bail them out if they get caught and suppressed. The barrage takes three minutes to be ready, and is easily dodged if seen, although setup MGs would be best advised to to retreat if targeted as unpacking and walking out is extremely risky.

Sorry but I cannot agree with your findings. Early game is actually the best balance of this faction, and an interesting battle.

5

Balance Discussion / Re: 1.02patch list from REBORN

« on: January 27, 2010, 07:36:38 AM »

command squad needs to lower the probability of commander dying first, because when the actual commander dies it becomes useless

Disagree. In my experience it seems he has the same or less probability of dying versus any other members in the squad. I think it's cool that when he is down the command squad loses its abilities, and must reinforce him to regain them. I though it was a bug at first when they had no abilities so I think this will catch a few people out but I like the mechanics of it.

command squad arty needs to do MUCH less damage to buildings, it takes out the strongest buildings in 1 arty barrage, this has been seen happening over and over

Have not see this but if so absolutely. I have seen it used against wehr bunkers and the damage seems spot on with only a little being done.

6

Balance Discussion / Re: quanitity vs quality. T34 op

« on: January 26, 2010, 10:11:12 PM »

You're looking at this tank battle in a vacuum. If three T34's are allowed to circle the tiger at will then yes they would probably own it as you said. But in any reasonable game contest there will also be support units nearby. The true power of the tiger is it's ability to strike in and deliver short devastating blows at little risk to itself before being backed off for repairs etc. If you rush your tiger in on a suicide mission and it gets encircled then you will simply suffer the consequences.

Also worth mentioning it's main gun's devastating effect on infantry which sets it well apart from normal tanks.

7

Balance Discussion / Re: 1.02patch list from REBORN

« on: January 26, 2010, 09:18:45 AM »

This is Relic's fault. There's a hardcoded bug which causes the game to crash if a new faction recrews weapons.

Ahhh cheers for clearing that mystery up. What a great shame I hope Relic does the right thing and fixes that. In the meantime then I would love to see them implement a system of allow soviet engineers to salvage all weapons for MP/Mun. At least that allows them to get something back from their own losses here and clear the field of weapons after a push so they don't just fall straight back to enemy hands.

8

Balance Discussion / Re: Soviet Union is totally OP!

« on: January 26, 2010, 07:54:15 AM »

Soviet totally OP? You have no clue whatsoever and should refrain from any further balance commentary.

9

Balance Discussion / Re: 1.02patch list from REBORN

« on: January 26, 2010, 07:48:13 AM »

Sounds good in general I like these ideas. The British or American medic bunker mopping up reds is a big problem. I just played a 2v2 where the Brits exploited this to get a massive raging blob by early mid game. Horrible stuff. Hopefully they can quickly make it so that reds are dead and not collected by medics when taken down ASAP or mixed faction allied games are gonna suck ass.

I think the Katuysha to 400mp is over-cooking the turkey here. Perhaps 350mp at most but I really don't see it as a problem currently so just leave as is. Remember, axis infantry has a retreat function!!

One balance issue I would like to suggest is to do with the support centre's ability to produce anti tank units. It seems it has two options and they are both quite woeful:

1) The anti tank gun is effective but is far too costly since it cannot be re-manned and even reinforcing the crew is 96MP per man!

Solution: make it able to be re-manned and/or cheaper to reinforce.

2) Tank hunters. Absolute rubbish without the upgrade to get a second gun. Even then they barely pass muster. Fair enough they are very cheap. Perhaps a second upgrade for them could give them the magnetic bomb.

The support centre is rubbish for AT. Anyone that doubts that play against Wehr Expert comp, where you will probably not have enough fuel to get tanks before the computer gets pumas which it loves to do. Your support centre AT will get munched.

Just one last point going back to being able to re-crew or capture weapons. I am not impressed by this part of the faction design. It's a double whammy because it means leaving weapons for the enemy. I am not sure of the logic why they made it this way? Doesn't seem true to history or resulting in better gameplay. I think if this system is maintained, at least allow soviet sappers to salvage them for MP or MUN as a bonus for over-running them, and also not allowing them to fall back into enemy hands.