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Balance Discussion / Ostheer Balance and Design
« on: March 09, 2017, 08:06:47 PM »
Hey Guys,
Just been playing the Mod after a very long break from balancing and I’m here to post my thoughts. For those of you who don’t know me I used to be a keen balancer back before Ost was released and around the time it was released. I also played in the various Tournaments of the time and came third in EF’s competitive 1v1 tourney that was held.
While I’ve always loved the EF mod and I think its fantastic, overall a lot of the changes that have been made over the last few years I don’t like, and if I may be frank for a second, a lot of the armies feel all over the place. I don’t mean to be cruel, I really don’t, I know a lot of work was put into this mod, but criticism is a balancers job and I shall do my job with gusto! I shall start with the Ostheer as I feel they are the easiest target.
Ostheer
First off, the innovative pool system that was originally a central feature of the Ostheer is now completely pointless. I played a skirmish for the first time today and I didn’t select a pool once, yet I still had access to all the units. I don’t know if this is intended or not but I think its obvious to say that this should not be the case.
The second feature that was at the heart of the old OH was modernization. While it’s still here, its very much a shadow of its former self, as the only unit that it modernizes as far as I can tell is the Pak. The infantry modernization is more or less a unit upgrade with a ‘modernization’ veneer and the Panzer modernizations just unlock certain units, not only needlessly complicating teching but also not influencing units to any great extent either. Armoured skirts is totally superfluous as there is nothing stopping you either adding it into Panzer modernization or making it into a munitions upgrade for vehicles.
Third, the tier system is totally out of whack. Why is there a medium tank in T2? And don’t give me that ‘The P3 is like the M8’ nonsense because the P3 absolutely rocks and is definitely worthy of medium tank status, not to mention the fact that its description clearly says ‘medium tank.’ Why is the Pak in T1 but the MG and Sniper in T2? That makes no sense, you’re definitely going to need infantry support weapons before AT guns. Why don’t sturm pios have a flamer? The grenade launcher is not an anti-building tool. Why are landsers 6 men? Seems to go against the commonly understood Coh theory of Germans having small but durable squads while the Allies have larger and more expendable squads. Why did the healing halftrack get removed? Now OH have this overcomplicated heal drop that’s incredibly inefficient and micro intensive. Every time you retreat your squads it’s like coming home from work to find your kitchen a mess, a tedious chore basically.
Before I continue laying in, I like what has been done with the observation post. Nice job. As well as S mines and regal mines. Great stuff.
Why is the P2 light tank in OH top tier? Why don't OH have indirect fire units, that only costs manpower, before T3? Why do MG bunkers cost fuel? Why do Med bunkers cost fuel? None of this makes sense. Why do Sturmpios have panzerfausts? And why do sturm pios get a fourth man after you tech infantry modernization? I can’t wait to hear the balance justifications for those. I’ve always felt that putting the P4, Panther and Tiger into the same role was a shockingly bad balance move and doesn’t make any historical sense (Which is something I’ve never cared about but its not often that a balancer can use history to his advantage). Why do elite troops have a panzer faust ability and an AT grenade ability? Overkill much? Why is MP40s a global upgrade for Landsers? What if you want some of your infantry to be better at long range?
Fourth, a lot of the interesting units that OH had at launch have been unceremoniously scraped. Admittedly I missed all that and there is a potential reason as to why they are no longer here but I really can’t think of why you would take out great units like Panzerjagers, LMG squads, Bombadiers, Panzerfusilers (non-doctrinally) the Kugelblitz and the Panzerwerfer. It only made the army dull and less strategically diverse.
Fifth, if you’re going to add an auxiliary tier, it can’t replace normal tier structures. Soviets, US and Wehr all have Auxiliary tiers and all of them have 4 levels of tech, why doesn’t OH? What makes it worse is the Luftwaffe tier is boring. The resource bonuses are, not only superfluous, but also a US rip off and the air powers require 2 expensive upgrades for an otherwise lack lustre unit that you might not even build or could have died in the first few minutes of the game. It’s bad design.
That’s more or less all the criticism I have, aside from minor nick pics like why does it take the same amount of kills to vet up a kubel and a P3 to vet 1? Believe it or not I do have some praise. The doctrines are much better than they were before. Originally, Support and Elite used to be a complete mess. Seems like they have been tidied up nicely. Fortress is still the most interesting and best designed doctrine though. It literally has everything you want and is thematic. My only criticism for Elite would be that the elite infantry come out too early, and that I question the balance wisdom of allowing infantry to vet up faster than everyone else. I’m also not 100% sure about support but I’ll look at it again later.
Okay, so what do I suggest. I know that most likely none of the changes will come about but that’s up to you. It’s just my 2 cents.
General changes
- Bring Landsers back to 5 men, four kars and one G41. There’s just no need for a 6th man, increase their health and accuracy if needs be.
- Give Sturm pios back their flamer upgrade and remove the Grenade launcher upgrade.
- Remove the panzerfaust abilty for sturmpios
- Remove schreks from Landsers.
- Remove the fuel cost from the med bunker and leave the MP cost as it is.
- Remove the fuel cost from the MG bunker and reduce the MP to 150.
- Remove the healing drop.
- Remove the ability for sturmpios to get a 4th man
- Increase the Vet requirements for the P3.
- Remove armoured skirts upgrade.
Structural changes
- Add the medic HT back to the HQ, literally the exact same as before.
- Remove the famo from the HQ.
- Have separate infantry, support and panzer modernizations.
- Keep the pools exactly the same.
Now. There’s two possible set ups for the first 2 tiers. But first I want to explain how I would change up some of the units:
Landsers
Landsers have always been in this awkward position where they don’t excel at any range. The MP44 upgrade is the primary offender here, but they have always been difficult to use or strategize around because they have so many different upgrades and abilities. So I suggest making them a purely mid-range squad, beaten by Rifles at close range and not as good as PGs at long. At the start the only ability they have is to build observation posts and barbed wire. The first infantry modernization costs say 150MP 25 fuel and it unlocks grenades, S-Mines and AT grenades. The second modernization gives them the ability to upgrade the entire squads with G41s for 50 munitions. That’s it. The MP44 upgrade is scrapped but perhaps added to some other unit. Other than that they should stay exactly the same.
Panzerfusliers
Originally Panzerfusilers were your go to close range squad and I think they should return to this. 4-man squad, all starting with MP40s and cost 300 MP. This makes them a dedicated close range infantry squad, meaning their role will never get confused with Landsers again. After the first modernization, they would get grenades. The second modernization upgrades all Panzerfusilers with extended mag MP40s. You could of course use MP41s or MP44s instead of extended mag MP40s but the point is that the second modernization improves their weapons.
LMG team
I would bring this back, this idea didn’t get the proper treatment it deserved first time around. This is not to be confused with a HMG support weapon, this is the squad with LMGs. I would make them into a 4-man squad, starting with two MP34 LMGs and two luger pistols. Most of the DPS would be provided by the LMGs, the extra models are purely to make them less susceptible to snipers. After the first modernization, they would get the slow ability they had before. After the second modernization, the LMGs would get swapped out with LMG42s. Alternatively you could make it that they start with that new MG you’s added, the MG26 or something, and then after modernization they move up to the MG34. Its whatever works. Obviously, this squad is purely long range.
Panzerjagers
The exact same, except they start with two AT rifles and after the second support modernization they move up to two Panzerschreks. AT grenades are unlocked after modernization 1.
Okay. Now the structure of the first two tiers. The first option is:
T0 – Sturmpios, Medic HT.
T1 Neutral Pool = Landsers.
T1 Assault Pool = Kubel, Sniper.
T1 Support Pool = MG34, Mortar.
T2 Neutral Pool = Halftrack.
T2 Assault Pool = Panzerfusliers, Panzerjagers.
T2 Support Pool = LMG Team, Pak98.
That would probably be the most sensible way of doing it, where you add the officer into a doctrine (probably support) and place the P3 later in tech tree. All units would be available straight off the bat and after support modernization II the mortar is replaced by the Leig, the Pak 98 (or Pak 36, which would be a lot more interesting) is replaced by the Pak 40 and the MG34 is replaced by the MG42 (or potentially a flak 38?). This means that the first level of infantry modernization unlocks abilities for Landsers, Panzerfusilers and LMG teams, the second level; upgrades the weaponry. The first level of support modernization would unlock abilities for the MG34, Mortar and Pak and then the second support modernization upgrades the unit with a completely different gun.
The natural tier progression would be the standard t1 into t2. The advantage of setting up the tier system like this is because the pool system would actually mean something again. Kubel and sniper is a far more aggressive playstyle than MG and mortar. Likewise, Panzerfusilers and Panzerjagers are mobile, short range anti infantry and anti-tank where as LMGs and Paks are static, long range anti infantry and anti-tank. Two totally different playstyles.
This is one option; the other option would be as follows:
T0 – Sturmpios, Medic HT and Landsers (Unlocked after T1/T2 complete)
T1 Neutral Pool = Officer
T1 Assault Pool = Kubel, Sniper
T1 Support Pool = MG34, Mortar
T2 Neutral Pool = Bombadiers
T2 Assault Pool = Panzerfusilers, Panzer Jagers
T2 Support Pool = LMG team, Pak 98.
Where the HT is bumped up to T3. This is also an interesting option as by moving up the HT to T3 and landsers down to T0 you open up the possibility of having two totally different tier starts, meaning players could open with either T1 or T2. The first tier would have the advantage of having a stronger line up of support weapons to back up your Landsers, the second tier would have the advantage of backing up your Landsers with either short or long range heavy infantry plus early anti-tank. Tier 1s weakness would be light vehicle play, T2s weakness would be heavy support weapon play. Of course you can cover this weakness by simply building the other tier, giving you access to everything, but you still have the pools to contend with. With this design you would have 4 different starts, all with their unique benefits and drawbacks.
However, I still think the first option is the more sensible design so I’ll continue with that. After building T2 you can then either build T3 or T4. The following units would be in T3:
T3 Neutral Pool = Brandenburgers, Famo
T3 Assault Pool = Luchs
T3 Support Pool = PanzerWerfer
And then T4 would be:
T4 Neutral Pool = P3, Stug
T4 Assault Pool = Tiger
T4 Support Pool = Kugelblitz
In this instance, T3 is the equivalent of the motor pool and the sturm armory, giving you an assortment of light vehicles, and roughly costing the same. T4 on the other hand would be along the lines of T4 for Wehr. The P3 definitely fills the boots of a medium tank and should start with the gun already upgraded, removing unnecessary teching. The P4 will not be missed, it was always superfluous anyway. Having the Panther and Tiger sharing roles was messy so just having the Tiger across the board would not only be more interesting, but also easier to balance.
Panzer Modernization would function like this; the first level unlocks abilities and upgrades for T3 light vehicles. This includes the HT upgrades, the Luchs (f)lame round (Which I think should be removed but anyway) and the Famo’s recover vehicle ability. The second level allows the P3 and the Stug to upgrade with skirts. Finally, the third modernization unlocks the Tiger. So the only upgrades in the entire faction would be those 7 levels of modernization; 2 for infantry, 2 for support weapons and 3 for vehicles. Simple.
I would remove the Luftwaffe tier completely. It’s just not needed. As well as the munitions upgrades being border line overpowered. The officer I would move to the position where Panzerfusilers occupied in the Support doctrine. I would give it an extra man, as it has a hard time vetting up, and then lock the Recon overflight ability behind Vet 1 and the stuka dive bomb ability behind vet 2. If you really wanted you could give him the med drop ability as standard.
Other than that, there’s nothing else I would change. I do think these changes are necessary though, you won’t reach a level of competitive balance in its current state, it’s just too messy. It still feels like it has just been released, especially since half the descriptions are no longer relevant and some of the units are clearly not finished yet (like the Hungarian infantry). There's also this weird glitch on the steam version where cover is invisible, don't know if everyone else has that problem. All of these old units are still in the game so it shouldn’t be a big ask to bring them back.
So that concludes my thoughts on OH. All things considered, its still a good Mod. I might write about Soviets later.
Just been playing the Mod after a very long break from balancing and I’m here to post my thoughts. For those of you who don’t know me I used to be a keen balancer back before Ost was released and around the time it was released. I also played in the various Tournaments of the time and came third in EF’s competitive 1v1 tourney that was held.
While I’ve always loved the EF mod and I think its fantastic, overall a lot of the changes that have been made over the last few years I don’t like, and if I may be frank for a second, a lot of the armies feel all over the place. I don’t mean to be cruel, I really don’t, I know a lot of work was put into this mod, but criticism is a balancers job and I shall do my job with gusto! I shall start with the Ostheer as I feel they are the easiest target.
Ostheer
First off, the innovative pool system that was originally a central feature of the Ostheer is now completely pointless. I played a skirmish for the first time today and I didn’t select a pool once, yet I still had access to all the units. I don’t know if this is intended or not but I think its obvious to say that this should not be the case.
The second feature that was at the heart of the old OH was modernization. While it’s still here, its very much a shadow of its former self, as the only unit that it modernizes as far as I can tell is the Pak. The infantry modernization is more or less a unit upgrade with a ‘modernization’ veneer and the Panzer modernizations just unlock certain units, not only needlessly complicating teching but also not influencing units to any great extent either. Armoured skirts is totally superfluous as there is nothing stopping you either adding it into Panzer modernization or making it into a munitions upgrade for vehicles.
Third, the tier system is totally out of whack. Why is there a medium tank in T2? And don’t give me that ‘The P3 is like the M8’ nonsense because the P3 absolutely rocks and is definitely worthy of medium tank status, not to mention the fact that its description clearly says ‘medium tank.’ Why is the Pak in T1 but the MG and Sniper in T2? That makes no sense, you’re definitely going to need infantry support weapons before AT guns. Why don’t sturm pios have a flamer? The grenade launcher is not an anti-building tool. Why are landsers 6 men? Seems to go against the commonly understood Coh theory of Germans having small but durable squads while the Allies have larger and more expendable squads. Why did the healing halftrack get removed? Now OH have this overcomplicated heal drop that’s incredibly inefficient and micro intensive. Every time you retreat your squads it’s like coming home from work to find your kitchen a mess, a tedious chore basically.
Before I continue laying in, I like what has been done with the observation post. Nice job. As well as S mines and regal mines. Great stuff.
Why is the P2 light tank in OH top tier? Why don't OH have indirect fire units, that only costs manpower, before T3? Why do MG bunkers cost fuel? Why do Med bunkers cost fuel? None of this makes sense. Why do Sturmpios have panzerfausts? And why do sturm pios get a fourth man after you tech infantry modernization? I can’t wait to hear the balance justifications for those. I’ve always felt that putting the P4, Panther and Tiger into the same role was a shockingly bad balance move and doesn’t make any historical sense (Which is something I’ve never cared about but its not often that a balancer can use history to his advantage). Why do elite troops have a panzer faust ability and an AT grenade ability? Overkill much? Why is MP40s a global upgrade for Landsers? What if you want some of your infantry to be better at long range?
Fourth, a lot of the interesting units that OH had at launch have been unceremoniously scraped. Admittedly I missed all that and there is a potential reason as to why they are no longer here but I really can’t think of why you would take out great units like Panzerjagers, LMG squads, Bombadiers, Panzerfusilers (non-doctrinally) the Kugelblitz and the Panzerwerfer. It only made the army dull and less strategically diverse.
Fifth, if you’re going to add an auxiliary tier, it can’t replace normal tier structures. Soviets, US and Wehr all have Auxiliary tiers and all of them have 4 levels of tech, why doesn’t OH? What makes it worse is the Luftwaffe tier is boring. The resource bonuses are, not only superfluous, but also a US rip off and the air powers require 2 expensive upgrades for an otherwise lack lustre unit that you might not even build or could have died in the first few minutes of the game. It’s bad design.
That’s more or less all the criticism I have, aside from minor nick pics like why does it take the same amount of kills to vet up a kubel and a P3 to vet 1? Believe it or not I do have some praise. The doctrines are much better than they were before. Originally, Support and Elite used to be a complete mess. Seems like they have been tidied up nicely. Fortress is still the most interesting and best designed doctrine though. It literally has everything you want and is thematic. My only criticism for Elite would be that the elite infantry come out too early, and that I question the balance wisdom of allowing infantry to vet up faster than everyone else. I’m also not 100% sure about support but I’ll look at it again later.
Okay, so what do I suggest. I know that most likely none of the changes will come about but that’s up to you. It’s just my 2 cents.
General changes
- Bring Landsers back to 5 men, four kars and one G41. There’s just no need for a 6th man, increase their health and accuracy if needs be.
- Give Sturm pios back their flamer upgrade and remove the Grenade launcher upgrade.
- Remove the panzerfaust abilty for sturmpios
- Remove schreks from Landsers.
- Remove the fuel cost from the med bunker and leave the MP cost as it is.
- Remove the fuel cost from the MG bunker and reduce the MP to 150.
- Remove the healing drop.
- Remove the ability for sturmpios to get a 4th man
- Increase the Vet requirements for the P3.
- Remove armoured skirts upgrade.
Structural changes
- Add the medic HT back to the HQ, literally the exact same as before.
- Remove the famo from the HQ.
- Have separate infantry, support and panzer modernizations.
- Keep the pools exactly the same.
Now. There’s two possible set ups for the first 2 tiers. But first I want to explain how I would change up some of the units:
Landsers
Landsers have always been in this awkward position where they don’t excel at any range. The MP44 upgrade is the primary offender here, but they have always been difficult to use or strategize around because they have so many different upgrades and abilities. So I suggest making them a purely mid-range squad, beaten by Rifles at close range and not as good as PGs at long. At the start the only ability they have is to build observation posts and barbed wire. The first infantry modernization costs say 150MP 25 fuel and it unlocks grenades, S-Mines and AT grenades. The second modernization gives them the ability to upgrade the entire squads with G41s for 50 munitions. That’s it. The MP44 upgrade is scrapped but perhaps added to some other unit. Other than that they should stay exactly the same.
Panzerfusliers
Originally Panzerfusilers were your go to close range squad and I think they should return to this. 4-man squad, all starting with MP40s and cost 300 MP. This makes them a dedicated close range infantry squad, meaning their role will never get confused with Landsers again. After the first modernization, they would get grenades. The second modernization upgrades all Panzerfusilers with extended mag MP40s. You could of course use MP41s or MP44s instead of extended mag MP40s but the point is that the second modernization improves their weapons.
LMG team
I would bring this back, this idea didn’t get the proper treatment it deserved first time around. This is not to be confused with a HMG support weapon, this is the squad with LMGs. I would make them into a 4-man squad, starting with two MP34 LMGs and two luger pistols. Most of the DPS would be provided by the LMGs, the extra models are purely to make them less susceptible to snipers. After the first modernization, they would get the slow ability they had before. After the second modernization, the LMGs would get swapped out with LMG42s. Alternatively you could make it that they start with that new MG you’s added, the MG26 or something, and then after modernization they move up to the MG34. Its whatever works. Obviously, this squad is purely long range.
Panzerjagers
The exact same, except they start with two AT rifles and after the second support modernization they move up to two Panzerschreks. AT grenades are unlocked after modernization 1.
Okay. Now the structure of the first two tiers. The first option is:
T0 – Sturmpios, Medic HT.
T1 Neutral Pool = Landsers.
T1 Assault Pool = Kubel, Sniper.
T1 Support Pool = MG34, Mortar.
T2 Neutral Pool = Halftrack.
T2 Assault Pool = Panzerfusliers, Panzerjagers.
T2 Support Pool = LMG Team, Pak98.
That would probably be the most sensible way of doing it, where you add the officer into a doctrine (probably support) and place the P3 later in tech tree. All units would be available straight off the bat and after support modernization II the mortar is replaced by the Leig, the Pak 98 (or Pak 36, which would be a lot more interesting) is replaced by the Pak 40 and the MG34 is replaced by the MG42 (or potentially a flak 38?). This means that the first level of infantry modernization unlocks abilities for Landsers, Panzerfusilers and LMG teams, the second level; upgrades the weaponry. The first level of support modernization would unlock abilities for the MG34, Mortar and Pak and then the second support modernization upgrades the unit with a completely different gun.
The natural tier progression would be the standard t1 into t2. The advantage of setting up the tier system like this is because the pool system would actually mean something again. Kubel and sniper is a far more aggressive playstyle than MG and mortar. Likewise, Panzerfusilers and Panzerjagers are mobile, short range anti infantry and anti-tank where as LMGs and Paks are static, long range anti infantry and anti-tank. Two totally different playstyles.
This is one option; the other option would be as follows:
T0 – Sturmpios, Medic HT and Landsers (Unlocked after T1/T2 complete)
T1 Neutral Pool = Officer
T1 Assault Pool = Kubel, Sniper
T1 Support Pool = MG34, Mortar
T2 Neutral Pool = Bombadiers
T2 Assault Pool = Panzerfusilers, Panzer Jagers
T2 Support Pool = LMG team, Pak 98.
Where the HT is bumped up to T3. This is also an interesting option as by moving up the HT to T3 and landsers down to T0 you open up the possibility of having two totally different tier starts, meaning players could open with either T1 or T2. The first tier would have the advantage of having a stronger line up of support weapons to back up your Landsers, the second tier would have the advantage of backing up your Landsers with either short or long range heavy infantry plus early anti-tank. Tier 1s weakness would be light vehicle play, T2s weakness would be heavy support weapon play. Of course you can cover this weakness by simply building the other tier, giving you access to everything, but you still have the pools to contend with. With this design you would have 4 different starts, all with their unique benefits and drawbacks.
However, I still think the first option is the more sensible design so I’ll continue with that. After building T2 you can then either build T3 or T4. The following units would be in T3:
T3 Neutral Pool = Brandenburgers, Famo
T3 Assault Pool = Luchs
T3 Support Pool = PanzerWerfer
And then T4 would be:
T4 Neutral Pool = P3, Stug
T4 Assault Pool = Tiger
T4 Support Pool = Kugelblitz
In this instance, T3 is the equivalent of the motor pool and the sturm armory, giving you an assortment of light vehicles, and roughly costing the same. T4 on the other hand would be along the lines of T4 for Wehr. The P3 definitely fills the boots of a medium tank and should start with the gun already upgraded, removing unnecessary teching. The P4 will not be missed, it was always superfluous anyway. Having the Panther and Tiger sharing roles was messy so just having the Tiger across the board would not only be more interesting, but also easier to balance.
Panzer Modernization would function like this; the first level unlocks abilities and upgrades for T3 light vehicles. This includes the HT upgrades, the Luchs (f)lame round (Which I think should be removed but anyway) and the Famo’s recover vehicle ability. The second level allows the P3 and the Stug to upgrade with skirts. Finally, the third modernization unlocks the Tiger. So the only upgrades in the entire faction would be those 7 levels of modernization; 2 for infantry, 2 for support weapons and 3 for vehicles. Simple.
I would remove the Luftwaffe tier completely. It’s just not needed. As well as the munitions upgrades being border line overpowered. The officer I would move to the position where Panzerfusilers occupied in the Support doctrine. I would give it an extra man, as it has a hard time vetting up, and then lock the Recon overflight ability behind Vet 1 and the stuka dive bomb ability behind vet 2. If you really wanted you could give him the med drop ability as standard.
Other than that, there’s nothing else I would change. I do think these changes are necessary though, you won’t reach a level of competitive balance in its current state, it’s just too messy. It still feels like it has just been released, especially since half the descriptions are no longer relevant and some of the units are clearly not finished yet (like the Hungarian infantry). There's also this weird glitch on the steam version where cover is invisible, don't know if everyone else has that problem. All of these old units are still in the game so it shouldn’t be a big ask to bring them back.
So that concludes my thoughts on OH. All things considered, its still a good Mod. I might write about Soviets later.