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Messages - JB23
1
« on: March 13, 2017, 07:23:26 PM »
A much appreciated reply, thank you Darc! My comments are in Red Purple. Overall your response cleared up a lot of things for me.
To be frank, the pool system was not "innovative". It was a mess. I tried several versions and none worked in a successful manner. The original concept of the Ostheer never featured pools, instead players could decide their veterancy on the training time of infantry. The longer the training time, the better was its performance. I honestly do not know who came up with the pools, but it was initially meant to provide a key feature to the Ostheer that was "flexibility". Pools should symbolize that - players should be able to field units fitting to a certain strategy and react to enemy units. But, if you actually put some thought in that - this is a default thing players do. They build tier buildings and choose their units according to the battle situation. There is no need to split up the army in two parts with a pool. The choices are already determined by the type of tier building you construct.
The pools were simply an artificial limit for the player. And since the pools had to be equal, they were made like a build-in reward unit concept. Each role (AT gun, MG team, tank, artillery) had 2 units that did pretty much the same. This only bloated the faction. The default Ostheer had 24 units! that's more than Wehrmacht has, including all doctrinal call in units on top. It was too much. Especially considering that every pool unit was redundant.
I'm still not entirely convinced that it is a truly awful idea. An artificial limit in exchange for more options, if weighed up correctly, would be interesting. But like you said, if the extra options are redundant then yeah, the pools would be pointless. I feel that this is what it was like before, I remember at launch you had on the one side the Marder and then on the other the Stug, just to highlight one example of the original redundancy. Its been so long since I played the original I can't remember any more. However, I feel my lay out has no duplicates, all with unique roles. 20 units is a fair amount, 1 more than Wehr. I suppose we all favour our own ideas though, and I trust that you've meddled with pools enough to make an wise decision as to their fate.
The second feature that was at the heart of the old OH was modernization....
Actually, this is what gives ostheer actual flexibility. You can construct tier building and you unlock interconnecting units with a single tech. in the old Ostheer teching was very specific, time and fuel intensive and only offered a limited amount of additional content. Just like PE, but without the shock value. It was the opposite of its intention and was reworked because of that. Armour skirts are a different matter and is not settled 100% yet. However, I prefer a fuel tech instead of ammunition, simply because Ostheer has lots of ammo sinks already.
Yeah I get what you mean now. I've made comments on the tier system below, but as for the modernization feature itself, it seems like it is only modernization in name rather than spirit. As far as I recall the old modernization was solely used to upgrade units, and each up level of modernization upgraded a swath of different units, playing up to the advances the Germans made in WW2. It was kinda like the soviet Auxiliary tier except where the upgrades were bunched together and influenced several units at once (As far as I remember, memory is a little vague). Now its used to add flexibility to teching, which is fine, its just not the modernization I was used to.
Third, the tier system is totally out of whack.
Actually, you're wrong. The old teching system was out of whack.
No argument, the old tier system was definitely out of whack 
Why is there a medium tank in T2?
Okay, let me explain:
Ostheer is about flexibility. Flexibility means that you can quickly adjust your plans and unit compositions to match an enemy. That's why the teching was reworked. It's essentially a reverse Werhmacht teching. With Wehrmacht, you tech a phase and unlock a building. With Ostheer you build a building first and then use modernization to unlock units simultaneously based on their teching level.
Example - Schutzen War Camp (t2)
You start with support units, which is a support tier for a low fuel cost. Now you tech the first modernization for 40 fuel and you receive a Halftrack (which is "t2" in Wehr teching at ~60 fuel) aswell as unlocking the Pak 97/38 in T1. Now if you tech modernization II and you receive a tier 3 unit, which is the Panzer III, for a similar teching time and cost like the Panzer IV from PE. To get real combat value you need the Long barrel, which is a seperate tech and requires additional fuel.
First off, the tier system makes a lot more sense now after you have explained it. Its not visually intuitive but it still makes sense and is growing on me. Thank you for that. Panzer Modernization is akin to the battle phases of Wehr. The first Panzer M unlocks what is in essence T2, even if it is spread out over the tier buildings. The second Panzer M is Tier 3 and so on. My only reservations with this would be as follows:
The obvious one would be that the Panzer Modernization to unlock the Panther is incredibly steep. 150 fuel to unlock one unit seems like a lot to me. Wehr get their Battle Phase and tier 4 for 100 fuel and that gives them 4 units. And yeah, sometimes its a Tiger and not a Panther, which might be the reason to justify to cost, but that just highlights why I think its a bad idea putting the Tiger and Panther in the same role. The extra tech costs automatically screws over the Support or Fortress player. I'm sure you have a reason for pricing it so high so I'll reserve judgement.
Why is the Pak in T1 but the MG and Sniper in T2?
Because t1 is a structure that is always built. This way both t1-t2 and t1-t3 strategies have easy access to a anti tank cannon.
That makes no sense, you’re definitely going to need infantry support weapons before AT guns.
Not necessarily. Ostheer mainline infantry has ways to deal with armour *cough* Panzerschreck/Gretchen*cough*
This is my second reservation. My question wasn't so much getting at 'how do Ostheer deal with armour?' I was more so getting at 'Surely in the early game you need an MG and sniper more so than a Pak'. Now I understand that T1 in the 'traditional' sense is spread out over the first two tiers and the Pak is actually still in the traditional T2. However, in order to have a full T1 you have to build T1 and T2. Let's do a comparison.
Wehr T1 = Bike, Volks, Sniper, MG.
Ost T1 = Kubel, Landsers, Officer, Sniper, MG (Where the MG and sniper are in the T2 building)
Soviets T1 = Spotters, Conscripts, Command Squad, Sniper, MG.
This implies that for Ost to be on the same footing as the other factions they need to start with T1 and T2. I'm going to check out the costs, but I'm fairly sure that Ost have to pay an extra 20 fuel and around 200 MP to get what everyone else already has. I don't think there is a whole lot wrong with this on the condition that some of the costs of the T2 building are transferred to the first Panzer Modernization upgrade.
Something else you could consider would be to put the Pak into the HQ and the MG into the first Tier as it opens up T1 to T3 play. Currently the different build orders offer you:
T1 to T2 - Pios, Kubel, Landsers, Officer, Pak, Sniper, MG, HT.
T1 to T3 - Pios, Kubel, Landsers, Officer, Pak, Leig, Luchs
Presuming the first Panzer M is teched. I can't say for sure but I'm going to assume the Leig doesn't compensate for 2 units, especially since T3 costs 35 fuel more than T2. If you were to move the MG to T1 and the Pak to T0 the build orders would offer you this:
T1 to T2 - Pios, Kubel, Landsers, Officer, Pak, Sniper, HT, MG.
T1 to T3 - Pios, Kubel, Landsers, Officer, Pak, Leig, MG, Luchs.
See what I mean. Just a thought. (I realized after editing this that you might get access to the Stug after the first Panzer M, right? That probably makes my suggestion void)
Why are landsers 6 men?
Because Ostheer with 4 men squads plays like PE. Ostheer is not PE and features its own gameplay. 6 men also increases their overall survival potential as they have more chances to avoid area of effect targets. Since Ostheer cannot buy vet it's important to keep Landsers alive. Also, 5 men Landsers look like volks reskins, which I/we want to avoid.
Why is MP40s a global upgrade for Landsers? What if you want some of your infantry to be better at long range?
Then don't tech it. Landsers performe fine without infantry modernization II as they have access to grenades and there are various support weapons that can replace the second upgrade. The only reason to tech Inf modernization II is to increase their close combat performance. There is no harm in not doing it. It's a tactical decision, just like teching bars.
Yes, but in making them less like Volks you made them more like Volks . What other squad do we know has a high man count, is fairly flimsy and relies on close range MP40 charges in the late game? When they were 5 men they genuinely didn't feel like Volks and more so like Grens, but they were obviously very different from Grens. In fact, I felt it was the fifth man that separated Landsers from the other German main infantry. PGs were 3 (most of the time), Grens were 4 and then Landsers were 5. And as for the global upgrade, would it not be wiser to decrease the cost of the upgrade but add a munitions cost to individual squads. So you can get MP40 Landsers if you really want to but not all of your squads have to be MP40 Landsers. Its not like Bars which increase Rifles effectiveness at all ranges. Or even make the MP44 a global upgrade and MP40s a squad upgrade, as the MP44 make them better at all ranges so it would make more sense.
Having said this though. I still feel a pure G41 mid range squad is the way to go.
Why did the healing halftrack get removed?
Because it's a useless concept.
If by useless you mean boring, then yes. But boring and convenient is better than new and tedious.
Now OH have this overcomplicated heal drop that’s incredibly inefficient and micro intensive....
I know that the healing drop requires some attention, but it does not only have drawbacks. Maybe you should consider taht you can also use it in battle aswell? You can drop it for an ally or for yourself to provide staying power. Combine that with a halftrack and you get lots of staying power where you need it, especially if you're using Army Fortress' counterassault ability. It has very strong synergies with other axis armies. And just as a sidenote, if you want an easy heal, pick the Support pool. As long as your units are in friendly territory they heal themselves over time, just like Wehrmacht vet 1 
First off, that's nice to know about the support pool. Never switching to assault ever again .
Second, I'm not so much against the healing ability, its cool. What I'm against is that its the main form of healing. Soviets, PE and US all have such a simple one time investment healing systems that makes life so much easier. Even Brits to some extent, except you have to pay munitions for it. With Ost, not only is it expensive in terms of munitions (over time) but is also takes ages to deploy the ability, wait for the smoke to wear off, drop down, click on the boxes and finally heal. That's valuable time lost.
If there was better base healing (like the HT) and this healing was an officer ability, I would be more than happy. But as it stands, its just annoying and expensive. My opinion on the matter.
Why do MG bunkers cost fuel? Why do Med bunkers cost fuel?
Gameplay reasons. Panzernests for manpower only are broken because they can lockdown large portions of the map as they're constructed rapidly and supress/kill fast.
Yeah this makes sense. But they still cost a lot for what is essentially a Wehrmacht MG bunker. 200 MP and 25 fuel? For Wehr its 150MP and 50 Munitions and its hardly better because you can't garrison it. 150 MP and 10-15 fuel would be far more reasonable.
Why do Sturmpios have panzerfausts? etc
Fourth, a lot of the interesting units that OH had at launch have been unceremoniously scraped...can’t think of why you would take out great units like Panzerjagers...
All the infantry units you mentioned had conceptual weakness, were very blob friendly and redundant for the most part. They only were a result of the pool system to keep the unit numbers per pool equal. Panzerwerfer as non doctrinal unit made the game dull, especially teamgames. Teamgames were all about building t3, then building multiple Panzerwerfers and raze the soviet base or support teams. There was no skill needed, just A-click and win.....While the Kugelblitz looked cool, it was unoriginal and redundant...
Why do Sturmpios have panzerfausts? etc
4th man is experimental and considered to be removed again...The Panzerfaust (Gretchen) is a one time AT weapon because Landsers have Panzerschrecks...
I think we should take a moment of solace for the Kugelblitz...  ....Okay, now, I understand why you removed the Kugelblitz and Panzerwerfer, both good reasons, even if I thought they were so damn cool. As for the infantry units, I'm not so sure. Some of them were not offspring of the Pool system. Take Panzerjagers for example. That was an epic unit. It was so nice having an AT squad that you could just build and it functioned perfectly without you having to invest any more in it. I can understand why you took it out, you wanted to slim down the army by giving Landsers a schrek upgrade and removing Panzerjagers, but sometimes less is not more. Think about it this way; Chess would not be better if you took out the Knight in chess by giving the Queen it's move. Likewise, Ost is not better by taking out Panzerjagers and giving Landsers schreks. It simplifies the army down too much and makes them too reliant on munitions, which is something you said they had a problem with. On top of that, one of the things that made Landsers unique was that they didn't have a Panzerschrek upgrade.
You could consider moving the Panzerschrek upgrade over to the Sturmpios and giving the Panzerfausts to Landsers. 40 MP and 75 munitions per schreks upgrade with a max of 2 (the MP to stop them from being spammed). This would mean that you could have a dedicated AT squad without having to sacrifice any of your mainline infantry.
Fifth, if you’re going to add an auxiliary tier, it can’t replace normal tier structures. Soviets, US and Wehr all have Auxiliary tiers and all of them have 4 levels of tech, why doesn’t OH? What makes it worse is the Luftwaffe tier is boring. The resource bonuses are, not only superfluous, but also a US rip off and the air powers require 2 expensive upgrades for an otherwise lack luster unit that you might not even build or could have died in the first few minutes of the game. It’s bad design.
Why do you think it's boring? One thing I agree with - the current resource increase tech is unoriginal. But it's just a placeholder until I find a solution for a way more unique implementation of the resource bonus. It just has to work right now, and the way it's implemented atm it does work. That's all that matters to me.
but apart from that - why is the Luftwaffe HQ boring? No axis army actually features a real, air based support. Of course, PE has Luftwaffe Tactics, but those are mostly limited to Ground Forces. The usage of aerial support is a completely new feature for axis and has not been covered at all yet.
The "2 expensive air powers" on the other hand are actually extremely useful. You can drop brandenburgers anywhere, they are not automatically targeted from enemy units and can instantly take over territories, lay down explosive charges and create chaos behind enemy lines. Combined with abilities like "Kesselschlacht" you can cutoff the enemy and watch his units getting razed by artillery strikes within the cutoff territory. This is just one possible way to use thm. The second ability, the Stuka dive bomb, works as a precision tool to weaken enemy defenses just before an attack. What does happen if your enemy looses his AT guns or MGs to a stuka bombs and you rush in your tanks? Utter destruction, and he has only little time to shoot down the plane if at all. It's very useful. Of course, costs can be tweaked and reduced if necessary, but that does not change the potential effect and synergies for the faction itself.
I don't so much have anything against the air powers so much as I have against the fact that they are tied to a single unit. You have to tech to unlock recon runs and stuka dive bomb, they're fairly expensive and tied to the officer. But what if the officer dies? What if its not in your build? Then those two upgrades are totally pointless. As for the Brandenburgers, I don't have anything against these, and when I was referring to 'expensive air powers' I was actually talking about how expensive it was to unlock recon and stuka. The Brandenburgers I actually like, and I like the air abilities as well for that matter, it just annoys me that you invest so much into an ability just to have it tied to 1 unit. At least with the Wehr officer you didn't have to buy the mortar barrage or force retreat, they were part of teching.
As for why I think its boring, its mostly because the resource abilities are a US rip off and because, when you think about it, if this tier didn't exist, you could have a whole extra tier of units, which would make gameplay so much more varied and interesting than 1 unit and 3 air powers ever could. No one would ever trade Wehr T3 for these. See what I mean.
One way you could make the resource upgrades unique would be to have one for manpower, munitions and fuel, but the manpower one costs MP, the munitions one costs munitions and the fuel one costs fuel only. So lets say the first level of the Manpower costs 300 MP and it pays itself off in 5 minutes and the second level costs 600 mp and pays itself off in 10 minutes. As a player you have to ask yourself 'can I afford a 300 MP hit now to improve my MP situation in 5 minutes time?'. Its kinda like having to evaluate opportunity cost, 'will my 50 fuel be better placed increasing my fuel in the long run rather than getting out that early P2. Would I prefer a tiger at the 25 minute mark or a P2 at the 10 minute mark?' It incorporates an element of long term planning. Its different from US resource bonuses because you usually buy them to decrease the upkeep of your army.
while I appreciate your effort in providing a possible layout for the Ostheer - I won't do another rework.
You can of course create a sub mod yourself and present it here to prove that your concept works better and is more fun, but I certainly will not do another rework. I spent weeks and months to revise the Ostheer, figure out ways to make them stand out from the other axis factions and provide an own flavor to them. I won't reintroduce another pool mess, I've considered various different layouts for the pools, and some of them were very similar to your layout. But overall none did work from one direction or another. If you have questions on how to edit stuff via corsix I'll surely give you a hand and give hints, but I won't introduce a new layout for Ostheer.
Tempting. I might do that. I'm in the middle of a move at the moment so I won't be able for a bit. But it sounds like something I would enjoy.
As usual, my answers are green. Hope I could clear some things up for you.
2
« on: March 12, 2017, 02:40:13 AM »
but for everything else we just dont have the time
Yeah I don't blame you's, the team has been working on it for, what, nearly a decade? I'm sure you're all sick of it by now The problems are there though, if you ever feel like having a look at them. Not even just the pools, a lot of the other things I pointed out are probably even more important. But I understand if you just want to get it finished at this stage.
3
« on: March 10, 2017, 08:58:05 PM »
Didnt manage to read more than third of your post but can tell you this: Well that doesn't bode well, when balancers are not bothered to read balance concerns. Pool system as it is is probably the best it could be made. If we go back into having units A and B for one pool and other units for the other then we also go back to the same old problems which are
- faction becomes harder to play
- not having access to important counter units all the time
and few more reasons that probably Darc will explain in time.
One more important aspect of the pool system as U suggest it is how do the player switch between pools ?
Is it completely free anytime ? - if so its pointless to have pools and makes thegameplay harder making the player to do pointless clicks before ordering the unit he needs
Is it time or resource cost? - Then the player gets f*ck for no reason. He cant purchase the unit he needs at the time where his opponent can.
Just locking 1/3 of the faction's units all the time is pointless concept when other factions dont have such "feature" in them.
Was it not the point of pools to encourage preparation and foresight? That's what made it interesting, if an M8 showed up and the player didn't have the right pool that was the players fault for not gauging his opponents strategy correctly. Saying that players should always have 'access to important counter units all the time' is like saying the Wehrmacht is broken because the player wasn't able to build a Pak when he didn't build T2. Adding strategic depth to a faction in a strategy game isn't bad. It should only cost Time, I thought that was always the case. Wasn't it that 'Yes pools limited what you could build at any one time, but overall OH had more options available to compensate'? But yeah, like you said, I don't think anyone is bothered at this stage.
4
« on: March 09, 2017, 08:06:47 PM »
Hey Guys,
Just been playing the Mod after a very long break from balancing and I’m here to post my thoughts. For those of you who don’t know me I used to be a keen balancer back before Ost was released and around the time it was released. I also played in the various Tournaments of the time and came third in EF’s competitive 1v1 tourney that was held.
While I’ve always loved the EF mod and I think its fantastic, overall a lot of the changes that have been made over the last few years I don’t like, and if I may be frank for a second, a lot of the armies feel all over the place. I don’t mean to be cruel, I really don’t, I know a lot of work was put into this mod, but criticism is a balancers job and I shall do my job with gusto! I shall start with the Ostheer as I feel they are the easiest target.
Ostheer
First off, the innovative pool system that was originally a central feature of the Ostheer is now completely pointless. I played a skirmish for the first time today and I didn’t select a pool once, yet I still had access to all the units. I don’t know if this is intended or not but I think its obvious to say that this should not be the case.
The second feature that was at the heart of the old OH was modernization. While it’s still here, its very much a shadow of its former self, as the only unit that it modernizes as far as I can tell is the Pak. The infantry modernization is more or less a unit upgrade with a ‘modernization’ veneer and the Panzer modernizations just unlock certain units, not only needlessly complicating teching but also not influencing units to any great extent either. Armoured skirts is totally superfluous as there is nothing stopping you either adding it into Panzer modernization or making it into a munitions upgrade for vehicles.
Third, the tier system is totally out of whack. Why is there a medium tank in T2? And don’t give me that ‘The P3 is like the M8’ nonsense because the P3 absolutely rocks and is definitely worthy of medium tank status, not to mention the fact that its description clearly says ‘medium tank.’ Why is the Pak in T1 but the MG and Sniper in T2? That makes no sense, you’re definitely going to need infantry support weapons before AT guns. Why don’t sturm pios have a flamer? The grenade launcher is not an anti-building tool. Why are landsers 6 men? Seems to go against the commonly understood Coh theory of Germans having small but durable squads while the Allies have larger and more expendable squads. Why did the healing halftrack get removed? Now OH have this overcomplicated heal drop that’s incredibly inefficient and micro intensive. Every time you retreat your squads it’s like coming home from work to find your kitchen a mess, a tedious chore basically.
Before I continue laying in, I like what has been done with the observation post. Nice job. As well as S mines and regal mines. Great stuff.
Why is the P2 light tank in OH top tier? Why don't OH have indirect fire units, that only costs manpower, before T3? Why do MG bunkers cost fuel? Why do Med bunkers cost fuel? None of this makes sense. Why do Sturmpios have panzerfausts? And why do sturm pios get a fourth man after you tech infantry modernization? I can’t wait to hear the balance justifications for those. I’ve always felt that putting the P4, Panther and Tiger into the same role was a shockingly bad balance move and doesn’t make any historical sense (Which is something I’ve never cared about but its not often that a balancer can use history to his advantage). Why do elite troops have a panzer faust ability and an AT grenade ability? Overkill much? Why is MP40s a global upgrade for Landsers? What if you want some of your infantry to be better at long range?
Fourth, a lot of the interesting units that OH had at launch have been unceremoniously scraped. Admittedly I missed all that and there is a potential reason as to why they are no longer here but I really can’t think of why you would take out great units like Panzerjagers, LMG squads, Bombadiers, Panzerfusilers (non-doctrinally) the Kugelblitz and the Panzerwerfer. It only made the army dull and less strategically diverse.
Fifth, if you’re going to add an auxiliary tier, it can’t replace normal tier structures. Soviets, US and Wehr all have Auxiliary tiers and all of them have 4 levels of tech, why doesn’t OH? What makes it worse is the Luftwaffe tier is boring. The resource bonuses are, not only superfluous, but also a US rip off and the air powers require 2 expensive upgrades for an otherwise lack lustre unit that you might not even build or could have died in the first few minutes of the game. It’s bad design.
That’s more or less all the criticism I have, aside from minor nick pics like why does it take the same amount of kills to vet up a kubel and a P3 to vet 1? Believe it or not I do have some praise. The doctrines are much better than they were before. Originally, Support and Elite used to be a complete mess. Seems like they have been tidied up nicely. Fortress is still the most interesting and best designed doctrine though. It literally has everything you want and is thematic. My only criticism for Elite would be that the elite infantry come out too early, and that I question the balance wisdom of allowing infantry to vet up faster than everyone else. I’m also not 100% sure about support but I’ll look at it again later.
Okay, so what do I suggest. I know that most likely none of the changes will come about but that’s up to you. It’s just my 2 cents.
General changes
- Bring Landsers back to 5 men, four kars and one G41. There’s just no need for a 6th man, increase their health and accuracy if needs be.
- Give Sturm pios back their flamer upgrade and remove the Grenade launcher upgrade.
- Remove the panzerfaust abilty for sturmpios
- Remove schreks from Landsers.
- Remove the fuel cost from the med bunker and leave the MP cost as it is.
- Remove the fuel cost from the MG bunker and reduce the MP to 150.
- Remove the healing drop.
- Remove the ability for sturmpios to get a 4th man
- Increase the Vet requirements for the P3.
- Remove armoured skirts upgrade.
Structural changes
- Add the medic HT back to the HQ, literally the exact same as before.
- Remove the famo from the HQ.
- Have separate infantry, support and panzer modernizations.
- Keep the pools exactly the same.
Now. There’s two possible set ups for the first 2 tiers. But first I want to explain how I would change up some of the units:
Landsers
Landsers have always been in this awkward position where they don’t excel at any range. The MP44 upgrade is the primary offender here, but they have always been difficult to use or strategize around because they have so many different upgrades and abilities. So I suggest making them a purely mid-range squad, beaten by Rifles at close range and not as good as PGs at long. At the start the only ability they have is to build observation posts and barbed wire. The first infantry modernization costs say 150MP 25 fuel and it unlocks grenades, S-Mines and AT grenades. The second modernization gives them the ability to upgrade the entire squads with G41s for 50 munitions. That’s it. The MP44 upgrade is scrapped but perhaps added to some other unit. Other than that they should stay exactly the same.
Panzerfusliers
Originally Panzerfusilers were your go to close range squad and I think they should return to this. 4-man squad, all starting with MP40s and cost 300 MP. This makes them a dedicated close range infantry squad, meaning their role will never get confused with Landsers again. After the first modernization, they would get grenades. The second modernization upgrades all Panzerfusilers with extended mag MP40s. You could of course use MP41s or MP44s instead of extended mag MP40s but the point is that the second modernization improves their weapons.
LMG team
I would bring this back, this idea didn’t get the proper treatment it deserved first time around. This is not to be confused with a HMG support weapon, this is the squad with LMGs. I would make them into a 4-man squad, starting with two MP34 LMGs and two luger pistols. Most of the DPS would be provided by the LMGs, the extra models are purely to make them less susceptible to snipers. After the first modernization, they would get the slow ability they had before. After the second modernization, the LMGs would get swapped out with LMG42s. Alternatively you could make it that they start with that new MG you’s added, the MG26 or something, and then after modernization they move up to the MG34. Its whatever works. Obviously, this squad is purely long range.
Panzerjagers
The exact same, except they start with two AT rifles and after the second support modernization they move up to two Panzerschreks. AT grenades are unlocked after modernization 1.
Okay. Now the structure of the first two tiers. The first option is:
T0 – Sturmpios, Medic HT.
T1 Neutral Pool = Landsers.
T1 Assault Pool = Kubel, Sniper.
T1 Support Pool = MG34, Mortar.
T2 Neutral Pool = Halftrack.
T2 Assault Pool = Panzerfusliers, Panzerjagers.
T2 Support Pool = LMG Team, Pak98.
That would probably be the most sensible way of doing it, where you add the officer into a doctrine (probably support) and place the P3 later in tech tree. All units would be available straight off the bat and after support modernization II the mortar is replaced by the Leig, the Pak 98 (or Pak 36, which would be a lot more interesting) is replaced by the Pak 40 and the MG34 is replaced by the MG42 (or potentially a flak 38?). This means that the first level of infantry modernization unlocks abilities for Landsers, Panzerfusilers and LMG teams, the second level; upgrades the weaponry. The first level of support modernization would unlock abilities for the MG34, Mortar and Pak and then the second support modernization upgrades the unit with a completely different gun.
The natural tier progression would be the standard t1 into t2. The advantage of setting up the tier system like this is because the pool system would actually mean something again. Kubel and sniper is a far more aggressive playstyle than MG and mortar. Likewise, Panzerfusilers and Panzerjagers are mobile, short range anti infantry and anti-tank where as LMGs and Paks are static, long range anti infantry and anti-tank. Two totally different playstyles.
This is one option; the other option would be as follows:
T0 – Sturmpios, Medic HT and Landsers (Unlocked after T1/T2 complete)
T1 Neutral Pool = Officer
T1 Assault Pool = Kubel, Sniper
T1 Support Pool = MG34, Mortar
T2 Neutral Pool = Bombadiers
T2 Assault Pool = Panzerfusilers, Panzer Jagers
T2 Support Pool = LMG team, Pak 98.
Where the HT is bumped up to T3. This is also an interesting option as by moving up the HT to T3 and landsers down to T0 you open up the possibility of having two totally different tier starts, meaning players could open with either T1 or T2. The first tier would have the advantage of having a stronger line up of support weapons to back up your Landsers, the second tier would have the advantage of backing up your Landsers with either short or long range heavy infantry plus early anti-tank. Tier 1s weakness would be light vehicle play, T2s weakness would be heavy support weapon play. Of course you can cover this weakness by simply building the other tier, giving you access to everything, but you still have the pools to contend with. With this design you would have 4 different starts, all with their unique benefits and drawbacks.
However, I still think the first option is the more sensible design so I’ll continue with that. After building T2 you can then either build T3 or T4. The following units would be in T3:
T3 Neutral Pool = Brandenburgers, Famo
T3 Assault Pool = Luchs
T3 Support Pool = PanzerWerfer
And then T4 would be:
T4 Neutral Pool = P3, Stug
T4 Assault Pool = Tiger
T4 Support Pool = Kugelblitz
In this instance, T3 is the equivalent of the motor pool and the sturm armory, giving you an assortment of light vehicles, and roughly costing the same. T4 on the other hand would be along the lines of T4 for Wehr. The P3 definitely fills the boots of a medium tank and should start with the gun already upgraded, removing unnecessary teching. The P4 will not be missed, it was always superfluous anyway. Having the Panther and Tiger sharing roles was messy so just having the Tiger across the board would not only be more interesting, but also easier to balance.
Panzer Modernization would function like this; the first level unlocks abilities and upgrades for T3 light vehicles. This includes the HT upgrades, the Luchs (f)lame round (Which I think should be removed but anyway) and the Famo’s recover vehicle ability. The second level allows the P3 and the Stug to upgrade with skirts. Finally, the third modernization unlocks the Tiger. So the only upgrades in the entire faction would be those 7 levels of modernization; 2 for infantry, 2 for support weapons and 3 for vehicles. Simple.
I would remove the Luftwaffe tier completely. It’s just not needed. As well as the munitions upgrades being border line overpowered. The officer I would move to the position where Panzerfusilers occupied in the Support doctrine. I would give it an extra man, as it has a hard time vetting up, and then lock the Recon overflight ability behind Vet 1 and the stuka dive bomb ability behind vet 2. If you really wanted you could give him the med drop ability as standard.
Other than that, there’s nothing else I would change. I do think these changes are necessary though, you won’t reach a level of competitive balance in its current state, it’s just too messy. It still feels like it has just been released, especially since half the descriptions are no longer relevant and some of the units are clearly not finished yet (like the Hungarian infantry). There's also this weird glitch on the steam version where cover is invisible, don't know if everyone else has that problem. All of these old units are still in the game so it shouldn’t be a big ask to bring them back.
So that concludes my thoughts on OH. All things considered, its still a good Mod. I might write about Soviets later.
5
« on: February 25, 2013, 07:12:04 PM »
I was highly satisfied with your reply, everything I don't refer to in this post is warmly accepted. b]KV-1s:[/b]
T2 play get completely dominated by KV1s. This is evidence enough:
http://www.easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=9381.0
KV1s are extremely resilient to paks and Schrecks. They're effectively medium tanks that don't require teching. They offer no unique gameplay. If I had the choice I'd just remove them. If you want, you could put them back in as a reward for T-34s. Why they were removed from this position is beyond me. You already have the KV85, all that would be required would be to make them "Tank Riders" compatible. KV 1 had not hardcap, whcih was likely to be an oversight. In the next version they're hard capped to 2 tanks at all times, and their pop cap is increased slightly.
I still think they should be removed. They're not fun to play against or even fun to play with. I'm ok with it but something better could be in its place.
T2:
Everything that needs to be said about observers has already been said. TH are gone which I'm happy about because it gives you the perfect opportunity to remove other useless upgrades and units. I wouldn't add another unit to T2, I'd leave it the way it is. I'd separate the Mortar and AT and give each unit its individual teching cost: Snipers (80mp and 20 fuel), AT guns (100mp and 25 fuel) and Mortars (200mp and 45 fuel). Why so high for mortars? Well I think they should start upgraded because medium mortars are useless anyway. Likewise for AT guns. This would mean that the upgrades of gunnery veterans (Ie the upgrade no one buys) and ballistic veterans are removed along with the medium mortar. AT guns would be much more readily avaliable which would deal with Soviet's deficiency vs HTs and Stuhs. What about the strelky unlock you say, I'd have it that strelky unlock when the SSB is built. Stelky shouldn't require fuel as they are only just as strong as riflemen and wehr do fine against rifles already. The manpower attached to the upgrade just delayed them even further. RBS would have the same impact as BARs as a result. The IS2 tech wouldn't be too greatly affected because the cost would be roughly the same. 6 upgrades would be left in the armory.
Interesting... Do you have our internal version? Some of this stuff is pretty similar to the changes we're currently testing
Partisans
They need something else, like for example a thread breaker mine that would otherwise be removed from the game.
Sturminovie
Very expensive for what they are. Repair nerf once upgraded? 75 muni PLUS 150mp per squad. Unable to build base structures or mines? High reinforce cost? upkeep cost? negative zeal? Why would you get this instead of a flame thrower? Please reconsider.
Still they rape everything at close range, and do not die at all. A double flamer ingenery is still easy to supress and will die against focus fire quickly.
Not currently, Lets just say I'm clairvoyant . Partisans fair enough, sturms however....Its not that they're not good at what they do they just don't do enough. I never understood why they can't build base structures, I remember feintly asking the devs about it when I had access to the internal and I think they said its a glitch. All I ask for is bringing the repair back up to its original state and allow them to build all ignery defenses. None of that would be OP, except possible mines but you'd need play test that.
6
« on: February 24, 2013, 05:45:13 PM »
Building any kind of support-weapons vs Conscript-spam (3-4 conscripts) is a bad mistake. Volksspam (3-4 Volk plus early medic-bunker) is the key to success. 4 Volks bash 4 Conscripts easily, even if they have Molos. And unlike Conscripts, Volks are not getting that useless in midgame as Conscripts.
Like said correctly, MGs and Snipers are not able to deal with Conscript-spam or at least its hard to deal with. But the game is about correct reaction to the enemy building-order, so its best to start allways with 2 Volks as they dominate Conscripts and are very strong in early game. If you see 3rd Conscript by the enemy you should build more Volks. If you see 3-4 Conscript you should expect Molotovs and for that you should get Medic-bunker to piss enemy off.
Didnt played EF for a very long time, but I agree that Molotovs might be slightly too strong.
Well I have been playing it alot lately, with the Tourney and all, and I wouldn't say volks "bash" or "dominate" conscripts. I tried 3 volk opening a load of times with ashes (Who actually agrees with me) and it failed nearly every time. It nearly always winds up as 3 volks vs 4 conscripts with molotovs and the conscripts win that quite handily. You really have to try it for yourself, then you'll see what I mean.
7
« on: February 24, 2013, 03:10:01 PM »
I'm looking forward to seeing what the Balancers do for 2.00 with the Soviets but I'd like to mention a couple of things that I noticed in 1.702 that I hope do not go unmentioned. Conscripts:Afaik soviets pretty much steamrolled most axis players in the last tourney, barton raped everyone by using conscripts only... This is self explanatory, its blatantly obvious how OP conscripts are. You don't even need to build Strelky or Guards. Molotovs are the worst part about them; they do a large amount of damage, extremely cheap to buy (the upgrade and the actual use of the ability), come really early and have a fast enough recharge. Given that conscripts have such a short build time you usually end up with a showdown of 4 conscripts vs 2 volks and an MG early on and one conscript always gets through to throw the molotov forcing the MG to relocate or die. The short build time also denies any MG/bike play. Snipers aren't that effective against them (low reinforce cost/ large squad size). For some reason they seem harder to suppress than in other patches. The fact that conscripts hold up so well.generally results in some far reaching consequences, the don't cost alot to buy outright so getting an outpost isn't too much of a strain on MP so early T-34s are easy to get. You tend to have excess manpower for KVs too, the whole thing becomes a nightmare for Wehr. I assume the current balance team has already addressed this problem. I'd move Molotovs to the armory and increase the build time of the Mustering tent by about 5 seconds. KV-1s:T2 play get completely dominated by KV1s. This is evidence enough: http://www.easternfront.org/forums/index.php?topic=9381.0KV1s are extremely resilient to paks and Schrecks. They're effectively medium tanks that don't require teching. They offer no unique gameplay. If I had the choice I'd just remove them. If you want, you could put them back in as a reward for T-34s. Why they were removed from this position is beyond me. You already have the KV85, all that would be required would be to make them "Tank Riders" compatible. I'd also remove SU-85s from this position in the Breakthrough Doctrine. It doesn't deserve to be doctrinal, its just another tank destroyer and the doctrine has enough Call ins already. Make it into a reward for the SU76. It used to be there anyway, both tanks have the same role but function differently in the same way the gwagen and the stug differ. I'd also bring it down to 6 pop, and bring the SU76 down to 4 pop (In line with the stug). Prop DocSupport gun = Useless = remove. Swap the "Red tide" to the second spot on the right so all the call ins aren't on the one side and put something new on the left. SU122Not even half as good as the KV2. T2: Everything that needs to be said about observers has already been said. TH are gone which I'm happy about because it gives you the perfect opportunity to remove other useless upgrades and units. I wouldn't add another unit to T2, I'd leave it the way it is. I'd separate the Mortar and AT and give each unit its individual teching cost: Snipers (80mp and 20 fuel), AT guns (100mp and 25 fuel) and Mortars (200mp and 45 fuel). Why so high for mortars? Well I think they should start upgraded because medium mortars are useless anyway. Likewise for AT guns. This would mean that the upgrades of gunnery veterans (Ie the upgrade no one buys) and ballistic veterans are removed along with the medium mortar. AT guns would be much more readily avaliable which would deal with Soviet's deficiency vs HTs and Stuhs. What about the strelky unlock you say, I'd have it that strelky unlock when the SSB is built. Stelky shouldn't require fuel as they are only just as strong as riflemen and wehr do fine against rifles already. The manpower attached to the upgrade just delayed them even further. RBS would have the same impact as BARs as a result. The IS2 tech wouldn't be too greatly affected because the cost would be roughly the same. 6 upgrades would be left in the armory. PartisansThey need something else, like for example a thread breaker mine that would otherwise be removed from the game. Sturminovie Very expensive for what they are. Repair nerf once upgraded? 75 muni PLUS 150mp per squad. Unable to build base structures or mines? High reinforce cost? upkeep cost? negative zeal? Why would you get this instead of a flame thrower? Please reconsider. IS2Nearly impossible to repair without BT doctrine. Anyway that's all I've got, thanks for tanking your time to consider my proposals. Take them or leave them, up to you.
8
« on: October 07, 2012, 04:04:12 PM »
It was fairly obvious that Dane didn't particularly like the mod, he must of complained about conscripts and the IS-3 nearly every game. His initial reason for casting EF games was due to public demand. But at least he gave it a go I suppose and tried the Mod out, if he didn't like it then oh well.
Although I do agree he did have a nasty habit of bashing the EF regulars, Glimz especially.
The irony of the situation is that if you go onto his channel and cycle through the vids you'll notice the EF games have considerably more views, even more so than the pro games.
9
« on: September 05, 2012, 12:40:35 PM »
10
« on: September 04, 2012, 10:01:45 PM »
Also I'm going to take the privilege of starting the final doodle:
http://doodle.com/v9d87x69e5yk5cns
(I added Sunday in order to include the small hours of Saturday night)
Important note also JB, you forgot to add timezone support.
I knew I was forgetting something, should I make a new one?
12
« on: September 04, 2012, 11:06:47 AM »
Seen as quite a number of players want to play Berlin, which is understandable, I vote that different players play each of the 5 rounds so everyone in the tourny who wants a game can get one. That would mean all 20 allies would end up playing at some stage of the fight and some of the Axis' most fanatical commanders will be able to fight multiple times.
13
« on: August 31, 2012, 12:20:47 AM »
Yet no doodle
14
« on: August 30, 2012, 11:23:44 AM »
Chill tight-arse Michael, Its just a game...
lol
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