Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: Buff Beutepanzer  (Read 6641 times)

Offline krupp steel

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2014, 04:05:16 AM »
Well part of the problem is that the cost to benefit ratio for the BEUTEPANZERS is outrageous, which is why I am disappointed in the unit itself. Now, if the unit was much less expensive, I wouldn't have a problem with the tank. Really what needs to be done is to simply BUFF it to ATLEAST be the exact same stats as their regular counter parts (T34 from OH should = SU T34, and so on). Keep in mind, I am getting T4 building to build a light vehicle that will risk its life to REVIVE a tank (taking time), using additional resources to revive, and overall if I am not getting the benefit after investing in so much, it means that there must be a buff to the beutepanzers. Usually you only revive the tanks that are nearby on friendly, secured territory (atleast that is HOW U USE IT SMART). I mean, you can throw the berger tiger on the front lines, but it goes down extremely quickly when repairing things so it is not much different. Again, you don't compare the two because they are much different than eachother (speed vs armor/health, ability to revive own vehicles free or reviving enemy tanks).
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Offline chaosval3

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2014, 04:58:30 AM »
Actually, you should compare the two because they share the same task. Balancing them in comparison is a different story as always. Aye, I do agree that Beutepanzer should be the same as the originals.

Bergetiger has the health of a Tiger I, which you can cunningly use to your advantage. The FAMO gets blasted by AT rifles and anything bigger. Bergetiger isn't actually half bad of a unit. It's underrated as hell and can be used for multiple strategies such as spearheading, crushing, distracting your opponent and damage sponging. The FAMO has none of these advantages( perhaps a distraction yes, but it can't defend itself). It's cheap, that's all. But you shouldn't have need for the ability in the first place if you keep your stuff alive :P.

If we remove the cost of the ability, we should probably increase the initial price of the FAMO slightly and perhaps buff its health slightly to make it more resilient. Treat balance like a balance(scale), give and take.

It's up to me mates Darcie and Bish. I can't access EF currently.

Offline Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2014, 02:11:05 PM »
Again, lets keep this thing on topic. We are discussing the BEUTEPANZER and how their stats make them not worth getting. We are NOT talking about the famo itself, getting rid of the famo is NOT the solution to buffing the beutepanzer. Reread the title guys.
Beutepanzers share the same guns that the original tank has, the original speed and health. The difference is that every tank has an additional rec. damage modifier (15% more to be precise).
I won't buff beutepanzer stats to any significant amount. Allied tank weapons deal ridiculous amounts of splash damage and it doesnt make sense to make them as sturdy as the allied counterpart for 2 reasons:

1) Beutepanzers have huge "aim at me" Wehrmacht crosses on their chassis
2) they're double efficient against the enemy, you get 1 tank more while the other enemy gets one less

I rather go with removing the ability cost and changing beutepanzers to affect pIV, pIII, halftracks, panzerwerfer, Kugelblitz, Stug III/IV and Kübels (:D). Also we can make it a bit more resililient to weapons.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 04:28:59 PM by Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S. »

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Offline krupp steel

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2014, 05:41:47 PM »
1) Beutepanzers have huge "aim at me" Wehrmacht crosses on their chassis

Why does a change in the paint-job have anything to do of how strong the armor or health of a tank is?

2) they're double efficient against the enemy, you get 1 tank more while the other enemy gets one less
Keep in mind that this doesn't always apply when you get a new beutepanzer. I mean, you could decide to build another Panzer IV in production every time you kill a T-34 tank. This is an alternative compared to going through the HASSLE of getting a Famo unit on the battlefield and risking its life 50/50 (depending where the wreck is) in order to revive the enemy tank.

Also note that enemy wrecks are extremely fragile, and many times they would simply be crushed or destroyed late game due to things such as artillery and stuff, so this is NOT ALWAYS the case. Think economically, is it worst investing a lot of time and resources and luck in X when I could simply produce Y? As of right now, it is not worth getting building Famo on the field, spending a minute or two trying to revive it under risky conditions (it could be bombarded by artillery, crushed by a vehicle, etc), and there isn't always wrecks on the field that you can safely recover. And think, if you manage to revive one, you now need to repair it AGAIN (taking even more time), and the end result is a sub-par tank that goes down very quickly. Why go through ALL this TROUBLE when you could just simply build a Panzer IV, Tiger, or a Panther out of your base risk-free that is much less of a HASSLE and much more efficient and reliable?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 05:44:07 PM by 132 »
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Offline Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2014, 06:21:16 PM »
Easier to spot compared to regular camo.

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Offline krupp steel

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2014, 07:05:56 PM »
No/counter arguments to response to #2 (Good sign)

But your reasoning for #1 has horrendous logic. Mostly all vehicles have their army symbol/logo on some part of their vehicles. So according to your logic, removing the Wehrmacht cross out of all wehr vehicles, the Russian text out of the KV-2, and the american stars out of the Sherman, it will make the unit more take less damage? Lol, an arrangement of different painting colors (symbols) on a tank makes it weaker. So even a bazooka will be able to destroy the tank somehow because the someone wanted to put their army's logo on the tank to prevent friendly fire.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 07:10:04 PM by 132 »
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Offline chaosval3

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2014, 07:23:13 PM »
Well, it may not sound logical, but I do think the reason for it is a decent one.

1. It's more spammable (lower cost) compared to getting any new tank out.
&
2. Allies have weaker infantry in general, which means splash damage is very effective against them.

I would like to present an alternative. Perhaps the Beutepanzers could fire the German Pzgr.39? That way, we can remove their 15% received damage and reduce their splash damage, but increase their AP slightly?

So, they become like their originals in durability, but have less damage output against infantry, and slightly better AT output compared to their originals.

 

Offline Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2014, 08:04:58 PM »
No/counter arguments to response to #2 (Good sign)

But your reasoning for #1 has horrendous logic. Mostly all vehicles have their army symbol/logo on some part of their vehicles. So according to your logic, removing the Wehrmacht cross out of all wehr vehicles, the Russian text out of the KV-2, and the american stars out of the Sherman, it will make the unit more take less damage? Lol, an arrangement of different painting colors (symbols) on a tank makes it weaker. So even a bazooka will be able to destroy the tank somehow because the someone wanted to put their army's logo on the tank to prevent friendly fire.
I'm simply too lazy to discuss/argue about stuff that's irrelevant when I know that most of the part of the argumentation is based on something void (recovery resource costs in this case which will get removed).But yes, my personal opinion is that a captured beutepanzer should be weaker than the original tank. Simply because you steal something from the enemy and get a benefit from it for free (in the next patch). Edit: ofcourse you're right in your argumentation based on this patch. but that's not really that helpful at all.

Right now the ability is useless (in 2.300). And I think it's pointless to discuss about the current ability, instead discuss on the stuff based on what I've written in another post:

Quote
I rather go with removing the ability cost and changing beutepanzers to affect pIV, pIII, halftracks, panzerwerfer, Kugelblitz, Stug III/IV and Kübels (:D). Also we can make it a bit more resililient to weapons.
Well, it may not sound logical, but I do think the reason for it is a decent one.

1. It's more spammable (lower cost) compared to getting any new tank out.
&
2. Allies have weaker infantry in general, which means splash damage is very effective against them.

I would like to present an alternative. Perhaps the Beutepanzers could fire the German Pzgr.39? That way, we can remove their 15% received damage and reduce their splash damage, but increase their AP slightly?

So, they become like their originals in durability, but have less damage output against infantry, and slightly better AT output compared to their originals.

 
Dunno, I think we should leave them as they are, so they're predictable to use and to play against.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 08:49:03 PM by Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S. »

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Offline Dreamerbg

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2014, 09:42:12 PM »
Darc, why not make it that those tanks have same stats to their originals but  they are worse in accuracy and reload time or some shit.
I mean OK , there is no logic behind explanation based on painted stuff on the vehicle but  a logical explanation is to say OH crew is worse so it cant use the full potential of the tank since they are not trained to use such tanks  ;D

Offline krupp steel

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2014, 04:09:13 AM »
Actually the OH crews should be more skilled and trained than an allied conscript tank crew since there are obviously more of them for allies.
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Offline Grand Duke

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2014, 09:45:49 AM »
Actually the OH crews should be more skilled and trained than an allied conscript tank crew since there are obviously more of them for allies.
Errrm, I'm sorry to pop in unannounced into some other people's discussion, but in my opinion even if the German crews are more experienced, the Beutepanzers should get some combat penalties (- acc., or -speed, or smth) just like DreamerBg said.
Just imagine, you are part of a german tank crew, trained to drive a PzIV, and the orders come through that you should man a repaired T-34. And here's where the trouble starts. If it's a T-34-76 you would have to leave one of your man behind and the commander would have to do gunner's job too, and that cannot contribute to your tank's battle efficiency. Secondly, all your tank's controls are in Cyrillics, the ammunition is marked differenly and is stored differently, the optics are different and have to be accustomed with and overall the tank is much more cramped and uncomfortable (especially after being knocked out and repaired). All this would cause some difficulties in combat for your crew, trained to drive another tank.
Of course, after getting veterancy and learning how to deal with all this over the course of the battle, the penalties should go away or become smaller.

Offline maddogb

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2014, 02:37:21 PM »
got to agree with a lot of points here, the beautepanzer and hence famo is pretty useless and yet could be a wonderful addition, the way i see the problems

1. Cost, you use the factory to produce this at cost sacrificing one tank build,  famo also accumulates cost in repair and recovery procedure so enemy will have built another tank by then.

2. time, it takes ages to recover then repair, you could have built a tank or two back at base and the enemy most certainly will have.

3. practicality, as 132 said most wrecks are flattened before the famo can get there,IME its rare to get more than one (or two against a noob who single tank rushes) recoveries before death of unit, and considering cost of build, recovery and repair the unpredictable nature of the process(ie are any wrecks going to be able to be recovered?) its a bit of a waste of build space so far.

The only practical solution is make sure total cost of build of famo,recovery of beautepanzer and repair is less than production of new tank to compensate for reduced speed/damagepoints/hitpoints etc the reasons above make it necessary to implement those reductions( maybe 10%?)

Offline Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2014, 03:01:47 PM »
got to agree with a lot of points here, the beautepanzer and hence famo is pretty useless and yet could be a wonderful addition, the way i see the problems

1. Cost, you use the factory to produce this at cost sacrificing one tank build,  famo also accumulates cost in repair and recovery procedure so enemy will have built another tank by then.

2. time, it takes ages to recover then repair, you could have built a tank or two back at base and the enemy most certainly will have.

3. practicality, as 132 said most wrecks are flattened before the famo can get there,IME its rare to get more than one (or two against a noob who single tank rushes) recoveries before death of unit, and considering cost of build, recovery and repair the unpredictable nature of the process(ie are any wrecks going to be able to be recovered?) its a bit of a waste of build space so far.

The only practical solution is make sure total cost of build of famo,recovery of beautepanzer and repair is less than production of new tank to compensate for reduced speed/damagepoints/hitpoints etc the reasons above make it necessary to implement those reductions( maybe 10%?)

So, we pretty much all agree that theere should be no cost for the Beutepanzer, amirite?

Darc, why not make it that those tanks have same stats to their originals but  they are worse in accuracy and reload time or some shit.
I mean OK , there is no logic behind explanation based on painted stuff on the vehicle but  a logical explanation is to say OH crew is worse so it cant use the full potential of the tank since they are not trained to use such tanks  ;D

Gold ideal actually... the penalty could bei removed by receiving vet 1 with the Tank then.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2014, 03:14:06 PM by Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S. »

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Offline ATL

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2014, 06:31:24 PM »
Still trying to explain why the recovered tanks have a worse performance? The way I see it is that you can't repair a wrecked tank to functional state and hope it's just like brand new, new crew to the tank wouldn't help either.

Back to topic, well, talking about a competitive aspect, the problem I think of is actually trying to recover the enemy tanks, the enemy will know where their tanks were destroyed, and they can destroy the wreck beforehand unless lets say a mass retreat after a defeat in a confrontation, and even then, IIRC the enemy can see in the fog of war not only the wrecks, but also if the enemy is actually repairing it. So I think the ability should be performed faster to leave less reaction time, but with the tank itself having less impact and being more expendable.

So my idea is to have the Famo recover wrecks like 50% faster than its repair ability (if that can actually be done) with a heavier manpower upkeep (so you're actually paying for the recovery of the tank, but in an indirect way), but when recovered one of the following:

 1. The recovered tank spawns with both heavy crits, main gun destroyed and engine damaged to make up for the faster recovery and you can still punish reckless recovering with a fast response attack, wasting all the manpower the OH player invested.

 2. The recovered tanks are weaker versions of their former beings, so it punish the actual loss of the unit, this one however can be quite confusing if applied to axis recovered tanks, but looks fitting for Beutepanzers.

Going along with the concept of weaker Beutepanzers I think it should be paired with less pop usage than its allied counterparts, this way also helps to prevent going over popcap limit.
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Offline Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.

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Re: Buff Beutepanzer
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2014, 06:52:37 PM »
This is sort of what I was considering for the rework. Also, I think the tank already spawns with multiple crits enabled in the current version.

But yea. Faster recovery, no cost apart from some manpower drain and then it's fine. But it's not really possibel to make the drain really "cost" the player. A huge mp upkeep would require you to halve your mp income or make it even less, and even then its only ~130 mp if your recovery takes a whole minute (which it won't).

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