Buff Beutepanzer

[krupp steel]

I know they are previously wrecked tanks but come on, its like they are significantly weaker than their normal counter parts. Seriously, why would you revive a t34 when you could get much more out of a panther, tiger, and even a panzer 4 compared to having 2-3 beute panzers. I know manpower wise they are beneficial but seriously several dozens of fuel and munitions along with TIME (its not free folks and isn't instant, almost as if it were built from a factory at base) just to revive the friggin tank. And if you accidentally move your famo OR it is interrupted and has to retreat due to enemy, you just lost a bunch of munitions and fuel for nothing (EVEN WORSE when it gets crushed). That is why I think it needs some redoing to the ability. Maybe make it have an upgrade every 3 minutes to allow the ability to be possible, free of cost of resources (this way a person doesn't get punished if they accidentally order the famo to move or something) Also make the beute panzers WORTH getting, atm they are pretty bad.

[chaosval3]

Interesting. I have not seen this ability in ages since the FAMO is so fragile and one vanguard tank can basically blast it to kingdom come. I surmise Darc could take a look it. In my opinion, FAMO is not even needed( only perhaps if you heavy tanks, but a few sturmpios do the same thing to me). I have never really seen it being that useful anyway. I don't know about Beutepanzers, they should be exactly like their original status unit. If not, once again, we shall verify.

Finally, could you please take some more time to structure your post and take formalities into consideration?
It would give me less the impression that you are 'raging' or yelling at us. While we try to look at as much suggestions as possible, it would be nice indeed if it wasn't in such an obtrusive manner.

I would like to thank you in advance and keep the posts coming!

[krupp steel]

You didn't even talk about what my point was or even close to the topic. Did you read, It's not the famo itself and repair abilities, its the ability dude.

[chaosval3]

Actually, I did. In the second sentence already. I also said that Darc might take a look at it.

[Blackbishop]

It is quite interesting though, if I recall correctly, they are supposed to use the same stats as the OH's panzer iv. Perhaps they were forgotten. But if the ability is expensive regardless beutepanzer tanks have these stats, perhaps we could look at some different approach... perhaps lowering the cost of the ability.

What if we make it free just like it was in the beta? And as countermeasure perhaps we could limit the max. amount of units revived at a given time... e.g. if you revive three of your own you won't be able to "revive/zombify/salvage" something else unless one or more of these recently adquired beute panzers die.

[chaosval3]

Well, I am sure we could, but it basically defeats the point of going for your 'MBT' Stug III since you can get a turreted one for a much cheaper cost if you get the FAMO. Also, I think it would discourage people from getting T-34's in general since they can then be recovered and it is again safer to go for the IS-2. Limiting is always an option. I have been thinking that it could actually be part of Fortress doctrine again(LHS 1st ability?) or perhaps of Army Support Doctrine (RHS 1st ability?) somewhere and it could then be a call-in instead. That way, it would have a pretty neat window of opportunity. Since OH soldiers can get repair vet and the sturmpio repair has been buffed, the FAMO has lost a lot of worth imo. The ability being buggy doesn't help either. Maybe it could be in T3 (I find it to come really late for it being so vulnerable) and allow salvaging of the P3 and Stug III as well, but only 2-3 scavenged units at max. It's a strange little unit indeed .

[ATL]

Well, the Famo looks viable when you lose your sturmpios as it has a better repair to pop ratio, but the unit itself may need some extra utility to make it more supportive outside these duties.

About the topic itself, yeah, the ability itself is quite punishing for its fixed price  each time you activate the ability. I can think of making the ability to have instead a munitions and fuel upkeep, so when you repair a low health wreck it actually cost you more and you can interrupt it when needed without been a complete waste. While it seems better in my head, it'd share the problems related to the old soviet mechanic regarding abilities, maybe having a manpower upkeep higher than repair would be better. What do you think?

The Beutepanzers share all the stats from their counterparts, the only differences IIRC are the veterancy (OH vet with engine) and the armour type, Panzer IV armour for Shermans, and Panzer III for Cromwells and T-34s, so that's why some Beutepanzers seem more squishy.

[chaosval3]

Ah, it seems we have found our culprit for the beutepanzer squishiness. I thought it had already been taken care of. About The FAMO itself, hmmm. I don't know. I never really get it( 1v1, in teamgames they are pretty useful) I find it quite pointless to get it really unless your opponent has T-34/85 and you have PIVs. I suppose what Bish said ( you too ATL ) could be a good step to make it more useful. And yes, anything to make it less buggy.

[Blackbishop]

[...]

About the topic itself, yeah, the ability itself is quite punishing for its fixed price  each time you activate the ability. I can think of making the ability to have instead a munitions and fuel upkeep, so when you repair a low health wreck it actually cost you more and you can interrupt it when needed without been a complete waste. While it seems better in my head, it'd share the problems related to the old soviet mechanic regarding abilities, maybe having a manpower upkeep higher than repair would be better. What do you think?
[...]

It is a good idea, do you know all the repair abilities have a manpower upkeep while being active? So, the more units using the ability at the same time means less manpower available for producing tanks or infantry squads.

It would be completely different than the old muni/fuel upkeep from the old Soviets so, don't worry about it.

[krupp steel]

There is no way that the beute panzers have the same stats as a panzer 4. If they did, they wouldn't have trouble against their selves in a combat scenario (OH t34 loses against SU t34, and so on). In fact, I DO remeber in the patch notes that the health WAS reduced and I think that is a terrible idea. The tanks gain veterancy rather quickly compared to the other vehicles (Soviet vet i think)

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

There is no way that the beute panzers have the same stats as a panzer 4. If they did, they wouldn't have trouble against their selves in a combat scenario (OH t34 loses against SU t34, and so on). In fact, I DO remeber in the patch notes that the health WAS reduced and I think that is a terrible idea. The tanks gain veterancy rather quickly compared to the other vehicles (Soviet vet i think)

They have a received damage modifier which makes them take higher damage from enemy tanks. The Advantage is that they share the "real" allied weapon, which means for Shermans/cromwells that they have the insane splash damage against infantry Units.

The whole Feature has been reworked several times in the past, because parts of the competitive community complained that the Feature to recover enemy tanks for free is broken, because it allows you to destroy enemy tanks while keeping your own tank alive, recover the enemy tank and suddenly you have 2 tanks and he has None. The fact that allied tanks are pretty mobile didn't help the course much, either.

That's why the ability got reworked to the Version we have right now. Revive enemy main battle tanks for a set amount of resources, or recover a selection of your own vehicles, although I don't know which vehicles are affected. Afair correctly, it was limited to PIII, PIV, Panther and Tiger tanks (the doctrinal AT and the main battle tank from Ostheer). Maybe it also works on PE/Wehr PIV tanks, also. But I can't say that for sure.

I also agree that the usage is pretty limited because of the time restrictions and the cost, and I've already thought about solutions for this ability. I'm not sure what's best yet. However, we'll see what we can do on the issue.

[Dreamerbg]

What bothers me in this ability is the fact that I can revive my tiger again and again but enemy must collect all the resources for his new IS-2.

I saw some nice suggestions here already. And I also want the cost to go away.
And to avoid the point I started with I have a few suggestions.
I was gonna give some of them and a lot of explanation yesterday but I wanted to test the famo again and this crashed my computer so my comment was lost

SO...
1st idea - Make it doctrinal. But not like the internal ideas from before... a bit different. Make it doctrinal to revive own tanks (tigers and panters) if you dont go this doctrine you can revive only enemy tanks, PzIV and PzIII if it is in the list. Atm  this doctrine is Army Fortress - giving it even more team play edge with the ability to revive your partners panther or tiger.

2nd idea was to make it revive smaller tanks. I was thinking of BergeTiger and how huge it is and how smoller Famo is and was like..."this vehicle is too weak to revive the big cats and T4 tanks at all". So give it the ability to revive "T3" tanks  and maybe, just maybe made some upgrade or even unique doctrinal ability where Famo can revive T4 tanks. This can go even further. Lets say there is a "Anti Americans" doctrine in the feature - if you choose it or Famo will be able to revive shermans.
(this was generally a really bad one)

3th idea was to move the Famo in different tier building ... like T3 and keep it for only "early war/game" tanks. No big cats, no PzIVs. 

Overall the OH changed soo much that the Famo's ability fall off too hard. With the design from around 2 years ago it was like a must be in the game ability but now... it doesnt.

[chaosval3]

I do concur with Dreamer here. I know it's not very typical to revert some things after extensive testing, but I mean, from a realistic point of view, one FAMO was designed to tow up to 28 long tons, which is sufficient for a vehicle up to the Panzer IV. However, for everything heavier multiple were needed. The only unit to compare with is the Bergetiger, but why does PE have it? They have the fewest tanks of all and instead it is mostly used to make one-time call in units become available again. I think that the FAMO should revive only medium tanks and lighter vehicles. Still, I never really see the need to get this unit. If you keep your vehicles alive, you wouldn't need a FAMO at all. I only like to get it in a teamgame as it usually leads to a death zone for vehicles.

Proposals:
1. No ability cost, only revive PIII, Stug III and PIV and perhaps as an early, doctrinal call-in again in Fortress

2. Only revive HT, PIII, Stug III and in T3 with ability cost

3. Get rid of it lol

This unit could be useful as a mid game call in to add extended lifetime to your more vulnerable mark III vehicles, since they die fast. Perhaps it could also work as the constructing unit and salvager of doctrinal bunkers and howies in Fortress? Remember that suggestion about making the defensive positions from Fortress salvageable? We can't really including towing into EF, but atleast we could reflect by being them being salvageable. Maybe this unit could do that?

[krupp steel]

Again, lets keep this thing on topic. We are discussing the BEUTEPANZER and how their stats make them not worth getting. We are NOT talking about the famo itself, getting rid of the famo is NOT the solution to buffing the beutepanzer. Reread the title guys.

[chaosval3]

Uhh... You clearly stated that the FAMO ability was also heavy on the resources and if you move, you waste those resources AND the ability needs redoing in your very first post. If fixing the Beutepanzers is now the only issue, to me, the answer seems quite clear. Simply mirror them to their originals. Why would they have received damage modifiers? It's illogical imo.

That said, the actual occassion for someone to have room and time to revive a tank with the fragile FAMO is extremely rare. It's got no combat value at all either. Atleast the Bergetiger has damage sponge potential with its large health pool and a coaxial mg that can do something, not much, but atleast something. I don't even know if the FAMO can crush lol.