Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: Could a Panzer III/Panzer IV defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha in combat?  (Read 3348 times)

Offline irik

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I am wondering about this because of the Sino-German cooperation that lasted until 1941. Had Germany kept supporting China in the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, they may have started exporting the Panzer III/Panzer IVs. The PzIII had a 37mm gun like the Pak 36, while the Panzer IV had a short-barreled 75mm gun, for infantry support. These tanks were not good against Allied tanks, but neither were Japanese ones. Do you think a Panzer III with its 37mm gun or a Panzer IV with its infantry 75mm gun could defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha?
Guards of the Red Army. Today, the German Reich is done away with!

Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: Could a Panzer III/Panzer IV defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha in combat?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2014, 02:22:38 PM »
There is no need to think about. First of all; Germany would never send "heavy" tanks to China. War, transport logistic and all this stuff would make a transport to China impossible. But you are talking about the possibility of a combat between german and japanese tanks and who may win this battle. When you check the data by your own u will find the result in seconds.
25mm armour cant stop a 3,7cm or even 7,5cm shell.
So whats the point of this discussion? On paper there are no problems.
May the force be with you.

Offline irik

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Re: Could a Panzer III/Panzer IV defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha in combat?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2014, 02:33:08 PM »
Thanks Rommel. The 75mm infantry barrel can defeat a Type 97? Dang. Could they defeat BT-5s and T-26s at the Eastern Front?
Guards of the Red Army. Today, the German Reich is done away with!

Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: Could a Panzer III/Panzer IV defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha in combat?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 06:38:31 PM »
Thanks Rommel. The 75mm infantry barrel can defeat a Type 97? Dang. Could they defeat BT-5s and T-26s at the Eastern Front?
Sorry for the later answer. Busy times.
Well. The 75mm KwK 37 L/24 is not an "infantry barrel canon". It is a tank canon with a low speed projectile. The Armour piercing round could penetrate 41mm on 100m and 30mm on 2km. Non of the soviet light tanks had more than 20mm [BT-7, T-26 and BT-5 have 15mm] frontal armour. With a hollow charge round you have 100mm of armour piercing. So there is a chance that the 7,5cm AP round couldnt penetrate a BT-7 with slopped armour on max distance but for the most parts the kinetic energy is still enough to cause serious problems to a small BT tank.
Germans dont have big problems with this small and light tanks. The heavy armoured KV tanks and the T-34 with the bigger slopped frontal armour were the problem.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 06:41:43 PM by Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G. »
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Offline irik

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Re: Could a Panzer III/Panzer IV defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha in combat?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2015, 03:58:32 PM »
Thank you Lord Rommel. I believe the discussion has now ran its course. I am glad to know that even  the Panzer IV can take down Type 97 Chi-Has and possibly other ones.
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Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: Could a Panzer III/Panzer IV defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha in combat?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2015, 04:03:23 PM »
Thank you Lord Rommel. I believe the discussion has now ran its course. I am glad to know that even  the Panzer IV can take down Type 97 Chi-Has and possibly other ones.
Well. Look at the penetration tables. Sometimes wiki had penetration tables with solid informations.
Most of this questions will be answered by this data sheets ;)
May the force be with you.

Offline irik

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Re: Could a Panzer III/Panzer IV defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha in combat?
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2015, 08:03:12 PM »
Speed for the T97 and PIII and PIV seem to be the same. Speed for the Panzers III and IV are 25 and 26 mph, respectively. Type 95 speed is 24 mph. Type 95 and Type 89 have a speed of 28mph and 16mph, respectively. It seems like speed is not advantageous enough for the German tanks. Panzer IV has 80mm frontal armor and 30mm side armor and 20mm rear armor. Panzer III had armor of 70mm. Type 97 57mm gun could penetrate 25mm at 1,000 meters. Would a Type 97 round simply bounce off the Panzer IIIs and IVs or would it penetrate but not do anything?
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Offline Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.

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Re: Could a Panzer III/Panzer IV defeat a Type 97 Chi-Ha in combat?
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2015, 08:24:08 PM »
Well. When the armour is too strong it will bounce or pin at the armour.
German steel was specialised: The external steel layer was hardened. Poor and small projectiles would bounce off or broke into small pieces. When a shell was able to penetrate the hardened layer they had to penetrate a soft steel. This soft steel absorbed a lot of the kinetic energy of a shell/round. The inner steel layer is again a hardened steel to protect the crew inside. A couple of Panzer 38t crews were lost because the impact of shells on the external layer smashed off small fragments of the armour inside the tank. This effect caused shrapnels by the own armour. It was so dangerous that Skoda had to change the steel quality for the Panzer 38t.
But jeah. I think a japanese 57mm round from a Type 95 tank will bounce at this distance.
But keep in mind. Most of the ww2 tank duels take place in a range from 50m to 250m. Combat over 1000m or more weren't so often. German tanks tried to keep tank battles at this distance because of the superior optics (in comparison with a T-34 tank without/limited optics). But this is a german armoured combat tactic.
I'm not sure about the japanese tank tactics and training but i think japanese tanks werent optimised for tank-to-tank combat. Key role of the japanese tanks is the infantry support.
May the force be with you.