Balance

[Ryousan]

. I didnt seem overpowerd to me... and Im a Wehr player and Im anxious to test my skills against the russian warmachine. Besides I think the devs have already fix the "OP IS-2" thing...

[Loupblanc]

 I been saying the IS2 was OP For ages
 Been writing a few notes while at work :

 hehe In theory, theory and practice are the same.
 In practice... they're not. Eh.

 ** Make it so global Units affect older units (T34
 and conscripts, etc, especially, suffer).
 
 Note : IS2/SU85 start at full strenght. Making them
 more desirable to build early on.
 
 Recommend 1 xtra unlock for IS2. Perhaps a global
 unlock needed before it can be built in the first place?
 Limit to 2.

 IS2 upgrade : Gain top MG and fixes the gun reload
 speed (Initial IS2 gun reloading speeds were flawed)
 (Thus a nerf to fix via Global Upgrade - IS2 needs one)
 
 SU85 : Same thing. Lower initial reloading speed and
 'fix' that via global upgrade. Make it somewhat less
 expensive, though? SU85 perhaps could also need
 initial unlock. Or rather, put it T3, instead of IS2,
 but need xtra unlock for IS2. Global Upgrade of SU85
 fixes reload speed of SU85. Might make it SAME
 upgrade for both? Idea is the same. Initial nerf,
 making it come 'of age' a little later. - Might make
 it a + range and + reload speed for SU85

 T34 : Lower fuel cost to 65-70 like Cromwell?
 Heck, might be tempted to say 55-60, even. No
 Veterancy. - It should get Cage upgrade (It
 squirmishes, where the SU85 doesn't). Other idea :
 Make the T34/85 be a DIFFERENT tank? Like Pz4/Pz5.
 The T34/76 costs 55 Fuel, the T34/85 costs 70?
 Yes, it still has to be unlocked This assures it's
 more spammable than IS2.

 ... Why should T34 be only unit with initial nerf when
 SU85 and IS2 *AND* T70 start at full strenght???
 
 T70 needs upgrade How about + Recon vision range?

[Ryousan]

Recommend 1 xtra unlock for IS2. Perhaps a global
 unlock needed before it can be built in the first place?
 Limit to 2.

Totally agree with that every single faction has to do a research (or suchs) before being able to field their meanest units.

[Loupblanc]

 Yup. Soviet style is similar to PEs except the core buildings
 are a lot more expensive, yet lack the unlocks?

[Bigpop]

Um, didn't anyone else notice that in the shoutcast the German player wasn't trying to hard anyways? I'm assuming they wanted to show cast the mod- He didn't even vet his troops until like halfway through. While I do enjoy seeing you come up with constructive criticism, you haven't:

1) Played the mod

Claiming ANYTHING is OPed is plain wrong, especially from viewing a SINGLE match between 2 players, whose CoH skills are unknown to you. Not trying to bag you man, but wait until it is released, then start calling things OPed.

Well, I wasn't a beta tester so I haven't had a chance to play it. That being said, having concerns about OP units or armies etc etc is never a BAD thing imo. Now, i'm not saying this mod is trash or broken etc etc. I was just trying to list a lengthy, thought out set of concerns that COULD happen and concern me. Could it all end up being PERFECT? Ya it could. Will it? Probably not. I don't think anyone expects it to be flawless with no need to update it and tweaks things etc etc.

But you guys have to understand, only a small portion of the CoH community has actually PLAYED this mod so far and so having a large number of community members who are interested but scared as well, is pretty common. All I could do was go by what I have read and seen. That shoutcast was the first time I have seen the mod in action (and the same with many people who didn't beta it) so it is natural to say "Alright that looked good no worries" and "Uhhh that was bad and may need a tweak". I certainly don't think the excuse of "Go play the mod before you criticize it" is valid. That means the only ones who could possibly have constructive, GOOD ideas, would be the beta tester community. I would think having constructive ideas, solutions and fixes brought to light by the overall community would be more beneficial and it seems the dev team agrees, or else they wouldn't have the "Suggestions" section of these forums!

[Tim270]

We welcome suggestions and criticism, but it is much more helpful if you have played the mod and got a good feeling of how everything works as on paper it may seem there are some imbalances, but I would urge you to try the mod and see how it plays in-game rather than how it looks on paper.

Please understand that there is no intention of releasing a mod where one side is overpowered, it would defeat the whole point of starting this mod in the first place. Please have some confidence in the teams ability to balance the mod.

[Bigpop]

We welcome suggestions and criticism, but it is much more helpful if you have played the mod and got a good feeling of how everything works as on paper it may seem there are some imbalances, but I would urge you to try the mod and see how it plays in-game rather than how it looks on paper.

Please understand that there is no intention of releasing a mod where one side is overpowered, it would defeat the whole point of starting this mod in the first place. Please have some confidence in the teams ability to balance the mod.

Agreed.

But you have to admit, many game COMPANIES that have huge payrolls and budgets goof these things up often. Take into account that these guys have so graciously put in their time, but (at least as far as I know!) are on a much more limited budget, and it isn't unreasonable to think there maybe some issues, not because of lack of dedication or ability but time, demand and limited resources, etc etc.

The issue I had with the suggestions to play is that I can't play until it is released. Thus, all I can do is read and watch video and re-act to that, which is what I felt I did in the initial post. AS you stated these issues very well could have been addressed earlier by beta testers and the dev team, but I don't know that because I was fortunate enough to be part of this team when it started.

Anyhow, as I said I would love to see this go well and I think other posters here have talked about some issues that they potentially see. I don't know if any are beta testers but I think everyone here wants this mod to be bangin and this is just the easiest way to help make that happen since many of us didn't know about this project quick enough to be able to help or add in our opinions.

[ford_prefect]

"Um, didn't anyone else notice that in the shoutcast the German player wasn't trying to hard anyways?"
I already said that.
also bigbop delete your other posts on me

[Loupblanc]

 I like this bigpop character
 If I didn't know better, I would think he's me on another acc#
 
 Just kidding.
 
 Excellent points you raise. BTW, check out moddb, it
 seems like extra upgrades are in the wind!

[Blue]

Don't worry Bigpop, I completely understand you. I actually have a few fears myself that the Russians will be able to simply spam a ton of units and over-run the other player (like spamming a billion conscripts). And yes, I am aware that they cannot retreat- making a bunch of weak units cannon fodder for stronger units a strategy for every single game will kill the fun, fairly quickly. Again, I haven't played this mod... Even if I had beta tested it, it wouldn't matter- I've tested a few mods out before release and they can end up either much much better or slightly worse. In the end, that is what patches are for.

[Loupblanc]

 Yea, is what I was thinking.
 Different in interesting. Will play it out, see how it works.
 Test a few things. I REALLY like the strategy guide, totally
 try a few things
 
 * I'd like if SU100 upgrade can't be obtained UNTIL T34/85
 upgrade, though. As the SU100 is a T34/85 variant

 Aye, that is what patches are for
 God love those patches

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

I'm pretty sure that Wehr Support Vet 1 will really shine against the UDSSR, just because of +25% acc -25% reload time for MG42, which will rape those conscripts within seconds.

Later on, vehicle vet for Pak38's (vet 3 + 20% dmg) and 88's will be very useful I guess, way more useful than against US.

[seq13]

Can you name those top players you've mentioned that was involved in balance testing? The wehr player from shoutcast play like lvl4, he should took out the is2 that was already damaged in the fist place not to shot at the new one with full health... anyway it's interesting that the developers can't say if the is2 > panther or not... I mean haven't you tested it?

[Voop_Bakon]

it can best a Panther in a 1v1

From the guide

[WartyX]

Can you name those top players you've mentioned that was involved in balance testing? The wehr player from shoutcast play like lvl4, he should took out the is2 that was already damaged in the fist place not to shot at the new one with full health... anyway it's interesting that the developers can't say if the is2 > panther or not... I mean haven't you tested it?

I think you completely missed the point of that shoutcast. Congratulations.

In a straight Panther vs IS-2, the IS-2 would win. However, there are very rarely 1v1 situations in CoH, and since Axis support tends to be better, then in a real match the Panther might win.