Soviet machine gun

[Venoxxis]

Just to name a few pionts, i will compare the soviets with the PE to show you the problem.

Take a look at thier units:

- the soviets got a commando squard which pwn pritty much everything at start
- the soviets have a mortel which costs only manpower and powns the PE one easily.
- the Soviets have tankhunters, ok - the PE got schrecks, but the soviets also got a PAK! (this is one hell of a piont) that means the pe do need to build a marder which costs a lot of fuel (remember, you need a upgrade to get it) the pak only costs manpower, and it costs less than the schreck troops you can build right away.
- the soviets got a heavy buildable art. , PE doesnt even think about having that.
- at least the soviets got super heavy tanks, even buildable.
that powns hell out of the PE.
- and also man, the pe doesnt got a MG which costs only manpower.

But man please, you should know that by youself. Every faction should have something the others dont have. That makes them unique, and gives them tactics to beat the other faction on their very own way. If you give one faction everything, its just boring and unbalanced as well, and just as i said - the soviets are by far the most complex faction already.
This is how it is and how it should be. if you dont like that you dont like funplay!

[Red_Stinger]

Soviet need MGs because the only building which can suppress infantry is the MGBunker, and its a doctrinal building which cost 300 MP, 15 fuel and... 3 population.

MGBunker should stay a doctrinal building, but it shouldnt cost 3 population.

I think soviet mobile MG should be a universal unit, which can be upgrade for 200 munition and available in support center.
I propose: MG squad- 3 or 4 men

1 guy with a maxima PM1910, which cannot go in building
2 or 3 guy with mosin nagant

the squad cost 250 or 300 MP, and it can be upgrade for 200 munition: the maxima PM1910 is replace by a Dshk (or something that is more efficient/modern), and a other guy join the squad.

with this support, soviet can suppress ennemy infantry, but if I am for a soviet MG, I dont know if its very, very unbalance for the game. What do you think?

PS: PE is an aggressive faction, and even if the halftrack is costly for early game, its also a powerful unit, which can rape any soviet infantry except tank hunters, so ... 

[Venoxxis]

Soviet need MGs because the only building which can suppress infantry is the MGBunker

Not every faction needs something which can supress, the soviets got enough to do it another way.

[PSIHOPAT]

Ok.

Agree...if you think if giving MG to USSR,will make them to be OP or appear "boring" or not different from others.You say that because don't like to play with Russia...just against...but no matter...

I come now with a suggestion,for strengthening the russians in  the point where they was historical superior.This point is SNIPING.

Lets give to partisans one sniper in the team.Sniper team to be the most effective in accuracy and rate of fire,and to have two snipers...with cost increased for balance and without ability to walk camouflaged how they are.

Russian snipers was the worst nightmare for germans,if you don't know that.In Russia allot of civilians was very good snipers.Childrens and females armed with sniped rifles was a pain even for elite german soldiers.   

Watch this
Stalin's sharpshooters! ww2 Russian snipers

russian female sniper, ww2, gudovantseva

Soviet Partisans Tribute

Also this documentary.Is formed by 5 parts.Watch them all.you will understand something after that.
Battlefields Stalingrad 1/ 5

[Red_Stinger]

The only way to suppress for soviet is to build a T-90, which come later than other MGs, and half track.

T-90 is useless: mini 145 fuel to build it, it can suppress infantry with some difficulties and 2 hit of schreks mean dead for him.
 So soviet need another weapon to suppress early infantry.

A soviet player has no chance vs a german player who know what he do: soviet infantry cant retreat, mean that they need officer or "For the motherland!" abilitie to go out from MG. german player can destroy every soviet unit in the early game, and whereas soviet player is building a new army, the other can capture some position and make tanks, arti, etc with some veterancy upgrade.

[Venoxxis]

Ok.

Agree...if you think if giving MG to USSR,will make them to be OP or appear "boring" or not different from others.You say that because don't like to play with Russia...just against...but no matter...

Acutally, i love to play as russia!
I just want them to stay a serious faction!
Thats all man! russians are great for sure!

I just always try to stay neutral to get the best solutions!


Regards

[mystic-eye]

The soviets do not need MG's for suppression. They have the command squad and sniper squads with portable nukes. You drop your artillery slightly behind advancing wehr troops and block their advance with your own infantry. If they move forward their men stop firing accurately and die, if they go back they go boom, if they retreat...well then you've done your job stalling them until you can make tanks.

The one thing, and ONE thing only, that keeps wehr as a viable faction vs the soviets in early game is the LACK of suppression units available to russian troops. Wehr's ability to suppress and Russia's ability to outnumber and overwhelm create balance between the factions. Adding an MG to the soviets creates imbalance in favour of the REDS. Wrong wrong wrong.

I think that some folks just don't understand what 'game balance' really means. Having two factions play against each other using the same units and abilities makes the game boring and predictable. Two mg's beat one mg...gg....he who makes the most mg's wins. Bullshit. Balance is about giving reasonable strengths and weaknesses to each faction. Each faction has abilities and units that others do not, and each faction has abilities and units that counter those other unique abilities. Balance is achieved when all factions have equal opportunity to beat any other faction they are up against; skill and knowledge of the game and its mechanics are the only imbalance...I suppose luck is also in the mix.

" yeh. but the computer just walks right into my russian troops and kils them!"  Talk to the hand buddy....this is a multiplayer game. It isn't meant to be balanced verses the computer..it's a C-O-M-P-U-T-E-R...it already knows your a noob. It knew the moment you hit the start button with computer opponents, and it's designed to make you feel that way.

[Red_Stinger]

I disagree with you: the command squad can call arty (like sharpshooters), but german player can retreat immediately and come back, and the arti abilitie take a long time to reload.

And when german infantry come back with MGs, what do you want to do? You cant retreat you infantry, so if your guys are suppressed, werh pios with flames or panzergrenadier with G43 (or MP44) can ripe off your infantry.

Also, why giving MGs for soviet can make the game boring? your example is pretty silly (no insult to you!), COH isnt a MGs fight... German player can counter every soviet unit in early game with better infantry and decent support, in middle game with shrecks, paks and units build before, and in late game with panzer's vet3 spamming (dont talk about IS-2 which can be easily destroyed by vet3 german unit).

Soviet player need a unit to make the early game balance (and interesting - conscript spam is boring).

[Artillerist]

Also:

from 1.01. to 1.03, Arty of Major had a delay 3 seconds, wich meaned even german player see splashes and red smoke and react on it, ordering MG to remove , he anyway lost all MG because unpack time was longer than arti time.

Now, arty time delay is over 5 seconds, and if german player see red smokes arond MG - it just unpack and runaway, and Major spent arty without use

[Strayker]

I disagree with you: the command squad can call arty (like sharpshooters), but german player can retreat immediately and come back, and the arti abilitie take a long time to reload.

And when german infantry come back with MGs, what do you want to do? You cant retreat you infantry, so if your guys are suppressed, werh pios with flames or panzergrenadier with G43 (or MP44) can ripe off your infantry.

Also, why giving MGs for soviet can make the game boring? your example is pretty silly (no insult to you!), COH isnt a MGs fight... German player can counter every soviet unit in early game with better infantry and decent support, in middle game with shrecks, paks and units build before, and in late game with panzer's vet3 spamming (dont talk about IS-2 which can be easily destroyed by vet3 german unit).

Soviet player need a unit to make the early game balance (and interesting - conscript spam is boring).

I absolutely agree with you...Soviets really need some extra firepower in early game phase. I mean not exactly extra firepower as suppresive fire. Apart from upgrading Guards, which happens in mid-game and/or building a T-90 there is no such option for soviets. Axis infantry are far better then yours even when you have 5 squads, that are firing on one (in green cover ofcourse). In early game stage the Volksgrenadiers or Panzergrenadiers will rip your conscripts apart. The MG will give you at least some option to keep them at bay. I dont think the MG will make Soviets OP...actually every faction in vanilla COH has a suppresive ability in early game...that makes them OP? In addition if the devs will make MG possible, you as a player have always an option not to build it, if you dont want so...so where is the problem then?

[Venoxxis]

I think that some folks just don't understand what 'game balance' really means. Having two factions play against each t giving reasonable strengths and weaknesses to each faction. Each faction has abilities and units that others do not, and each faction has abilities and units that counter those other unique abilities. Balance is achieved when all factions have equal opportunity to beat any other faction they are up against; skill and knowledge of the game and its mechanics are the only imbalance...I suppose luck is also in the mix.

Right what i said, and this guy is right.
This one should be closed.

[Red_Stinger]

"Each faction has abilities and units that others do not"

You are wrong:

-soviet infantry is counter by almost every german infantry
-soviet mortars and sharpshooter are counter by same werh unit or by MHT and armored car of PE
-soviet tank hunters are useless compared to panzerschreks...
-soviet AT gun is like werh AT gun or PE marder
-soviet medic truck (which cost population) can only heal, and cant recrew new soldier. Werh can build a bunker (that isnt a doctrinal building!) who can recrew fresh soldier for no cost.
-T-70 and T-90 are useless over Stug which come about the same time
-T-34 even with upgrade, cant stand over a panzer 4, or with a lot of luck. Su-85 or SU-100 are costly compared to their effectiveness.
-IS-2 is powerful, and fortunaly costly, but shrecks infantry or panther/tiger vet3 can destroy him.
-soviet arti is inefficient because of his precision. Werh has nebel and PE has Hummel (doctrinal unit I know) and there are far more precise!
-Werh and PE can suppress and DESTROY every soviet unit in early game
Of course, these comparrison between unit are stupid, but in fact soviet player had to counter MG or lose the game immediately . And a MG supported by german infantry is unbeatable by soviet.

[Venoxxis]

come on this is totally crap man.
you are comparing one faction with 2 factions.
What the hell are you doing?

Your name shows us that you do like soviets. I do like them as well. We just mentioned facts which are acutally true, and you tried to retort which something senseless.

Every point you mentioned is just rediculous.
Just for example:

"-IS-2 is powerful, and fortunaly costly, but shrecks infantry or panther/tiger vet3 can destroy him."
what the hell should that be? a argument?
surely they can otherwise their would be no balance.

I could own everyone of you arguments just like that. But please man, thats not needed, you know that by youself. I would suggest we try to stay cool and forgot about that mg if we dont find a good way to get it in.

[mystic-eye]

-soviet tank hunters are useless compared to panzerschreks...

Apparently you've never set them to ambush, waited for a vehicle to come to you, decloaked them as he passes and tossed an AT grenade, then finished it off with regular shooting. If you are smart you play them like stormtroopers. decloak and move when you are not in range of enemy units, then go into cover and set to ambush. Upgraded AT squads are very useful, and cheaper. They may not pack the same punch as a shrek squad one on one, but you can spam them a little....and they lay mines...mines for free.

Back to topic. Suppression via an MG. I don't think they need it. There's talk of upgraded wehr infantry owning conscripts...well duh! That's why there are better soviet infantry choices, and upgrades to make those even better. Shrelky with upgrades are GREAT for killing moving wehr infantry, as are the guards. Let's not even discuss wehr infantry with vet because we all know they are hard to suppress with an MG anyway.

I just don't get the arguement about NEEDING an MG. The US players have the option to get one but more players choose a barracks start to spam rifles. Some upgrade to BARS and do get suppression, but some skip BARS entirely to get the M8's fast. The fast M8 circumvents the wehr MG totally...as will the russian armour.

NEED and WANT are two different animals. The Devs think you don't NEED an MG as Russians (as do a couple of other people around here) and I have faith that they will tweak the soviet units in future patches so that you wont WANT them anymore either, or maybe you'll find a strat/build order that will fulfill your NEEDS better.

By all means, if you are that sold on having an MG then keep fighting for it. If enough voices speak, perhaps someone will listen, but don't EXPECT to win the fight using garbage arguments like " And a MG supported by german infantry is unbeatable by soviet" . Statements like that PROVE nothing, and are as believable as a sock in the pants.

[efx]

BLA BLA BLA
Not enough to compare the units.
Soviets can't retreat, can't recrew, can't build OP.
This is the problem... but not a problem for me:I decided switch to german (only vs soviet) for easy win