- Ostheer Concept by StormsDivision -

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Well. 5cm KwK L/42 could penetrate front armor under a range of 200m-500m - and when u now want to say that is very close then i have to say; right but the range at CoH isnt much higher, or

And more point for the Pz III: it was easier for german tanks to outmaneuver T-34 because the view out of T-34 was catastrophic.

[StormsDivision]

Sorry, but you are wrong, the Panzer III with the 50mm KwK L/42 could not destroy the T34 Frontally at any range unless using APCR ammo, which was in very short supply for all Panzer III's.

Details:

Penetration Data for the 50mm KwK 38 L/42

100m / 53mm --
500m / 43mm --
1000m / 32mm --

Panzer III Armor

Hull front / 50mm at 90°
Hull sides / 30mm at 90°
Hull read / 50mm at 80°

== == == == == == == == == ==

T34 Armor

Hull front / 45mm at 30°
Hull sides / 45mm at 50°
Hull rear / 45mm at 45°

Post Merge: April 05, 2010, 09:15:30 PMI've done the math too, 45mm at 30° is roughly around 80-100mm, the maximum penetration of the Panzer III is around 50-65mm at 100m or less

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

100mm oO I want to see the mathatical formula !

[Paciat]

100mm oO I want to see the mathatical formula !

sin30 = 1/2
Armor = 45mm
45mm/sin30 = 45/(1/2) = 90mm.
Simple as that.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Hm. Okay. So my sources/books are write lies
There are reports form Pz III Crewmen who destroyed T-34 by frontal hits ( perhaps the tank driver door is not so much armored? ).

All in all the Pz III debate is just ONE of the points i dont like ^^

[wordsmith]

Hm. Okay. So my sources/books are write lies
There are reports form Pz III Crewmen who destroyed T-34 by frontal hits ( perhaps the tank driver door is not so much armored? ).

I read about those cases too mate  , so I don't think they just made it up. You propably meant PzIIIJ late version which used better Kwk39 L60 50mm gun with improved penetration able to penetrate 100mm at 0m even without PzGr40 APCR ammo.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Thats the problem of this story; the texts were from 1941-1942 and there is no information that this tanks
had used the L/60 - perhaps they had used Wolfram-
Grenades or hollow charged grenades.

[Ghost]

by the way, coh isn't historically accurate - for balancing reasons 

That's what i found:

Durchschlag 100 m auf 30°     
Pzgr: 67 mm
Pzgr40: 130 mm

Durchschlag 500 m auf 30°    
Pzgr: 57 mm
Pzgr40: 72 mm

the pz III could be something between the stuart/hotchkiss and the panzer IV. it could be used as a light/medium tank vs. infantry and light armor. if it gets an APCR ability it could also be used vs. t-34. but it should not be the main tank of the ostheer.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Think these are the tarrif.net datas?
Well. I think Pz III would be a good main battle tank
Perhaps with different upgrades the gamer can make
this tank much better.

But like i have said - the PzIII is just ONE point.
One tank is not the hole faction and so we need
much more xD

[Paciat]

Hm. Okay. So my sources/books are write lies
There are reports form Pz III Crewmen who destroyed T-34 by frontal hits ( perhaps the tank driver door is not so much armored? ).

All in all the Pz III debate is just ONE of the points i dont like ^^

Hatches and vision slicks are weak points of armor.
But a quick research (not only wikipedia) showed me that L/42 gun couldnt penetrate T-34 frontal armor unless unsig APCR. L/60 gun could. Both guns were mounted on a PzIIIj tank.

All devs have to do is to give a PzIII L/60 gun and ACPR ability and it will be an usefull medium tank.

A bulletproof axis tank cant apear before US 57mm (It should be available at the same time as StugIV/PE PzIV) so there is no point in giving to Ostheer PzIII a weaker gun than a L/60.

[guynumber7]

I just happen to be an expert in armoured warfare of WWII, and I know straight away that the Panzer III's 50mm KwK 38 and the upgraded KwK 39 could not penetrate the T34's 50mm Sloped frontal armour, which is why they introduced the more powerful 75mm KwK 40 onto the Panzer IV, a tank originally designed to handle soft targets such as infantry, light vehicles, machine gun nests etc, a role which the Panzer III was not suited for.

It could if it used APCR up close (500m or less)


but thats not the point. COH is not realistic. 57mm AT gun killing king tiger from front...i mean its balance. not realism.

if you want realism men of war is for you.

[StormsDivision]

But allowing the Panzer III to use APCR rounds would make the Panzer IV not worth building, and to be honest, CoH still needs some degree of realism with units, and having an army of Panzer III's in the battlefield instead of Panzer IV's seems a little silly to me.

But the message is settled, the Panzer III can NOT penetrate the frontal armour of a T34 (unless using APCR, but that would never happen IRL)

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

It looks likt that L/42 cant penetrate T-34s frontarmor.
L/60 is able to do this with normal Panzergranate 40.
But when i talk about tribute for realisem u will need the
Panzer III because till 1943 it was the mainbattletank of
german Panzerdivisions at the east.

[StormsDivision]

I'm not saying don't have it in the Ostheer, I'm just saying that an Ostheer player can't expect it to be his main battle tank in mid-late game when t34's and IS2's start coming onto the field.

[cephalos]

Wait a moment - COH takes place in 1944, and PzIII was MBT until 1943... so when EF takes place? I can see Moscow, Kursk maps- I'm lost   
However I would like to see PzIII (just curious), the problem lies in having both of them, so do with them like you did with T-34 - just give upgrade to PzIV.