ostheer medium tanks

[TheReaper]

@TheReaper :
 
 Ah, but you heard LordRommel...
 Germans must win every fight. It's not about making a side
 interesting or even different. That's why no finnish, rumanian
 or anything. That's why Pacific Expansion will be about Tiger
 Armies racing atop the oceans sinking flying B17 formations :p
 Remember, pearl harbor was about Germans attacking.
 

LordRommel is a historian, he's have some good points even he's sometimes annoying. German Military SS forces had the military cooperation and brothership. That was the key for the succes of the "quality" and cooperation.
Historical background:
1943 July 13 a German Battlegroup ordered to push forward to soviet lines commanded by Dragunsky field marshall, who digged in their troops. In the German side there was
-11 Tiger
-72 Panzer 4
-16 Panzer 2 and Panzer 3
-30 Assault guns and Wespe SPA

After battle results in losses:
Soviets: 536 tanks
Germans: 89 tanks and assault guns

For the "zeal" I prefer this:
I was thinking about the veterancy system, that should be. I think the Hero Soliders started to appear in the EF, it could be done in the Ostheer. But that was told, there only 3 level of vet in coh, no chance adding a 4th one. My idea is that each level of vet gets an aura, that gives bonuses to accuracy to nearby units, like the british captian (not that much), or in Vet3 it can be upgrade to "Hero" that gives aura bonus to nearby units. It changes the look of the tank, that most of the heroes made custumozation to their vehicles, and the enemy can spot the hero unit. So the vet system works as the britis captain for everyone, or as an upgrade. It contain:
- faster reload time
- faster turning speed
- faster turret rotation
- heroic charge
- sprint
- camo
It reflects that the soliders work as a team. Yes ideas like the turret rotation speed is a bit strange, but it reflects, that the tank reacting faster, than an unexperienced crew. And for the ralism I must say a word: Pershing.  

[GodlikeDennis]

I mentioned this a dozen pages back or something, but the zeal can also represent the fact that German tanks had excellent radio communication between each other.

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

To end the "I am the better historian" conflict between Lord Rommel and Loupblanc, we shouldn't let CoH be affected by too much realism. The best way is to balance gameplay. Remember, in a skirmish the Germans are able to beat the Allies, in reality 'on the wholle frontline' they werent.
The whole last 6 or 7 pages are full off (sorry, but its true) Loups complaints about the others suggestions. But I think we have together the core of the idea, the last pages contain (with some exceptions) the same stuff. Again and again. To conclude it:

Early PzIII. Comes with 50mm KwK38 L42, appears after Stuart and M8 or T70, but before Sherman/Cromwell/T34 arrive.
Upgrade to either 50mm KwK39 L60  (Better AT) or 75mm KwK 37 (Better AI) for Ammunition.
Then let Sherman, Cromwell and T34 come. With the appearing of T34 (like it was in reality) Germans realise that they need heavier guns to keep up with soviets. StugIII comes. Not with the short barreled AI gun, but with the 75mm StuK 40 (a slightly modified PAK as far as I remember. Let it be able to camouflage, and lock down for the defensive aims.
IS 2, maybe Pershing and Firefly are coming. Now we have to discuss (we should take one of the already mentioned) what comes to counter those heavy tanks. I'd say capped tiger, only one, callin from HQ (needs some conditions to be buildable to avoid it coming to early, maybe just like PEs Panthers which need all buildings and nearly all upgrades). Make it a little weaker than the Tiger of WM, but strong enough to be better than IS2.

I don't want to attack anyone, I'd just like a little more substancial progress.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

I dont start and dont want a "conflict".
My problem is that creating a new faction needs so much details and point which had to be clarified.

I dont want to push u into a special direction.
It is my job to show where are weak points of an idea or concept and that is the reason for my "counter position".
Good ideas can just created out of discussion and time.

Some ideas out of this board are great but not all of them could be part of the Ostheer.
It is a hard process to find the best parts for the Ostheer.

About foreign nations:
Well. I think we had finished this point already.
The problem with foreign troops is that we cant add all of them!
Think of the board history. When we wont add nation x some of the board trolls start to cry. When we wont add nation y the other group will start crying and complaining.
Nations are a problem. "Germans" are the best solution because they "initialised" the war at the eastern front. So they are a key element.
When Ostheer get foreign troops they had to be presented in a special kind to no affront or anger someone.

Hope u understand my point.
No "board war"
Just a lot of discussions and topics 

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

Allright then

[TheReaper]

It is my job to show where are weak points of an idea or concept and that is the reason for my "counter position".
Good ideas can just created out of discussion and time.

+1

[Loupblanc]

 Doesn't that translate into german auto-win, though?

 If Protoss can make more zealots, faster, than Zerg can
 make Zerglings... where is the balance, here?

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

@Loupblanc:
Sometimes i have the strange feeling that u can react like a child sometimes
Anyone want a "auto win faction". Thought that this is one of the key elements of a new mod: creating a new, balanced, not auto winning faction.

So i think we dont need any Starcraft comparison here ( small personal note: i cant like starcraft so i have no ideas about the intent of your comparison  ).

All in all like i had already written: good ideas need time and discussions!

[Versedhorison]

Wow you guys have really taken to this thread great job.

heres some of my ideas though forgive me if you have already posted this but I last checked this thread back at page 16 so there no way im reading ALL of that text.

*Panzer III can and probably should outnumber t34 and shermans early game because they are inferior designs to both tanks. Also the fact that in 1941 and 1942 to a lesser extent there were swarms of german tanks (mainly panzer III) swarming across Russia and there were very few T-34 and KV tanks to begin with. However as the war progressed the german tanks began to be replaced and upgrade while more and more T-34's were pumped. So how does this relate to the game? Make the panzer III cheap and numerous yet inferior to the t34 and sherman to begin with but give it upgrades or replacements or whatever later on to show the shift in more allied tanks and fewer but better german tanks.

*Stug III is cool but imo its a slightly smaller StugIV and I'd rather see other tank destroyers.

*The Panzer II Luch WILL be in the ostheer as proven by spoilers so it will be early game and it will probably be something comparable to the armoured cars of the Panzer elite or something simmilar to the Stuarts used by the brits.

Will contribute later but I've got uni work to do 

[Jono]

The panzer 3 with 50mm gun should be just weeker than the T-34 but it should have good accreacy and number of abilaties to let it compete after the kill ratio of tanks was 8:1 to the germans in 1942 but when bigger tanks come out have panzer 4's and tiger's to face them

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

*Stug III is cool but imo its a slightly smaller StugIV and I'd rather see other tank destroyers.

What tankdestroyer would you like to see then? Nashorn was rare. Marder III we already have, like also JagdpanzerIV, V, and VI. Hetzer is included, StuGIV too. Sure, there are some alternatives to StugIII, but you can't ignore it to be the most produced german armoured fighting vehicle in world war II. It also owns the same gun that StugIV has, has the same armour (up to 80mm) and the same top speed of 40km/h or 25 mph. The StuGIII is actually 70mm longer than StuGIV (with barrel), 50mm wider and 50mm lower. StuGIV has only been built, because Alketts Factory was heavily damaged by a bombing run in September 1943. So Daimler Benz and Krupp were ordered to build another Sturmgeschütz on Panzer IV's hull.
I wish that it will be in Ostheer

[Ghost]

[...]What tankdestroyer would you like to see then? Nashorn was rare. Marder III we already have, like also JagdpanzerIV, V, and VI. Hetzer is included, StuGIV too. [...]

well, compared to the number of ostwind (~50) and wirbelwind (~100) tanks the nashorn wasn't rare. the existing vehicles (~473) were mostly used on the eastern front and were quite successful.
another option as a tankhunter would be the marder II.

[Versedhorison]

Personally I would love to see nashorns and maybe marder I or II would be nice too. Elefant/Ferdinand is pretty much gauranteed as well.

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

@Ghost
AA Tanks and tank destroyers are a whole different thing Also these were made by Relic, and they also included Bergetiger and a StuH42 on PanzerIV hull...
Marder 2 sounds also nice to me, because there were many wishes for PanzerII to be included, but until now we just saw the Version of Ausf. L with the different chassis. Elefant Ferdinand is like Versedhorison said nearly guaranteed in the Ostheer, but as to-one-capped doctrinal callin.
I only said that when I think of tank destroyers on eastern front, StuGIII is standart because it was produced around 10.000 times.
But I can imagine Nashorn also as doctrinal unit or latgame tankdestroyer.. like it is in BK-Mod (no worries, Eastern Front stays the 'one and only' mod )

[Ghost]

the wehr geschützwagen is a marder I build on hotchkiss chasis.

@MaxiKing6
i just wanted to point out that we already have plenty of vehicles in coh and EF that were produced in low numbers (e.g. pershing with 8 and "bergetiger" with 1-3, t-90 few prototypes).

i think ostheer tanks could be:
- panzer II as recon/early light tank
- panzerjäger I as early tankhunter vs. light tanks and vehicles
- panzer III as medium tank
- stug III as medium tankhunter and inf support
- marder II as tankhunter
- sturmpanzer IV as anti-inf tank
- nashorn as late game tankhunter
- elefant should be part of a doctrine