ostheer medium tanks

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

i think ostheer tanks could be:
- panzer II as recon/early light tank
- panzerjäger I as early tankhunter vs. light tanks and vehicles
- panzer III as medium tank
- stug III as medium tankhunter and inf support
- marder II as tankhunter
- sturmpanzer IV as anti-inf tank
- nashorn as late game tankhunter
- elefant should be part of a doctrine

Panzer II, Panzer III, StuGIII, Marder II I agree.

Panzerjäger I just saw action in France 1940 and in the east until 1942, when all vehicles where pulled off from th front because their firepower wasn't sufficient against T34 and KV1. I don't think we need such an early-game tankdestroyer, Panzer III can do it.

Sturmpanzer IV Brummbär. Here's the number of production the problem. There were only 306.

Nashorn. I don't know what to think about it yet

See. we don't have to include tons of tanks. You just listed seven tanks. Wehrmacht has 4 buildable, PE just 3, USA the same and Brits have also 4. We don't need 2 tanks for every purpose. Germans had also lots of interesting halftracks and armoured cars, which can deal with infantry and light vehicles. And don't forget the infantry 

Bu this thread is not about halftracks or armoured cars, its about tanks. I think Ostheer should have 4 buildable tanks, thats all.
Panzer II, Panzer III, Stug III and a yet unknown we are about to suggest 

[Paciat]

Panzer II, Panzer III, StuGIII, Marder II I agree.

SdKfz7/1 is better than PzII becouse it will serve in a AA role too.

3rd Marder? Come on. This idea is worst than a 3rd PzIV and 3rd Panther or a 3rd Shreck. Ostheer dosnt need mid game Marders if it will have Stugs. It needs A late game TD - Nashorn.

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

3rd Marder? Come on. This idea is worst than a 3rd PzIV and 3rd Panther or a 3rd Shreck.

First, it wasn't my idea, its been said several times on the last few pages. Marder II could serve as a reward unit for StugIII just like in WM.

But SdKFZ 7/1 is okay. But it doesn't need to replace PzII, both can be included.

[Ghost]

i never said i want all tanks included. i just listed the tanks and possible roles. nothing more nothing less.
there was a screen of a panzer II model so it's quite likely to be part of OH or a reward unit.
as mentioned before: number of tanks built is not important. if you go for numbers only then you would have to use panzer II, III, IV, panther and tiger.
let's not forget that just ~90 elefants were built and it's likely to be included as well.
sturmpanzer IV saw a lot of action in kursk battle.

about marder: why not? it was used on eastern front and it would not be the same as marder I or III. it's like saying "why panzer II or III we already have panzer IV" 

[Loupblanc]

 It makes me nuts when you people say : Who cares how many
 were built?
 
 - Said no Finnish T34/StuIII because lots of not-yet-put-in-game
 German units...
 
 Solution : More Tigers, More Panthers, More PanzerIV...
 
 - Said number built not important. Fine, let's change American
 faction so no shermans, no garand rifle, nothing they actually
 used. Same for Soviets. Remove T34, Moshin Nagand, etc. And
 only put experimental units and models or units from WW1
 (but buff them so they can take on King Tiger)(Renaud 1 anyone?)
 
 * No StuIIIF ? Fine. Delete T34/Sherman, then. That's basically
 what you just said, ghost. And anyone who doesn't think StuIII
 should have #1 medium tank spot in OstHeer (along with PzIII)
 
 * Details. I've been playing BF1942:FH0.7 lately, and doing
 a little more research. Stuart is TINY!! And PzIII and PzIV seemed
 to be about the same size (Almost). So, yea, could work as a
 T34/Sherman wannabe. But I *INSIST* it have various side-grades
 instead of UP-grades (Skirts excepted). That's why went PzIV,
 remember? And you DID say OstHeer would explore DIFFERENT
 units. Or give us captured T34's (I'd love those for North group)
 as a call-in. The zeal/slow unit *NERF* works pretty good, too.
 : I wouldn't want to limit it to just PzIII, though.

 ** I'm fine with Elefant, Weakened Tiger (Zeal rule too)(limit 1),
 Marder2, Wespe, etc. Nashorn (would take Elefant doctrine slot)
 (Would be that doctrine's 'King Tiger' slot)(KV2, whatever).
 
 ** I want PzIII/StuIII as their 'Sherman/T34'. No PzIV.
 As for saying StuIII is just a StuIV... error.
 StuIV is a DOWNGRADE for the PzIV.
 StuIII is a UPGRADE for the PzIII. Also #1 killer of Russian tanks
 in WW2. Cmon.
 
 Otherwise, you might as well give buffed Stuarts to OstHeer and
 say it's not about history. Who cares about history. And Give
 OstHeer Klingon Battlecruisers.
 
 * Lord Rommel :
 I know I'm not perfect. But at least I am totally devoted to
 flavorful balance. Not 'My faction has to auto-win'. The Conversion
 idea is actually very good. Please consider it.
 PzII - Wespe - Marder 2.
 PzIII - StuIII - BergerPanzerIII? (Just putting it in there)
        - PzIIIJ
        - PzIIIN

 Detail : PzIII to PzIIIJ/N conversions were done at FACTORY.
 Not 'in the field'. So PzIII to StuIII isn't any different.

Post Merge: September 22, 2010, 07:42:28 AM
 @Lord Rommel :
 As for the Starcraft2 reference.
 Zerg is a very low quality, very high quantity faction.
 The Zergling is the conscript.
 Protoss is a very high quality, very low quantity faction.
 The Zealot is the KCH - King's cross holder.
 
 Your comments, essentially, were that OstHeer would have
 King Tigers with no caps at the cost of Pioneers. 'Because
 Germany should always win'. That Germany should have
 Speed, Quality AND Quantity advantages over every other
 faction. ... and that's wrong.

[Cozmin95]

Dudes what are you arguing for; maybe the devs already took a decision and are letting us talk till the Ostheer is done!
But if anyone listening this is what tanks i want the Ostheer to have:
-Panzer III L/42(L/60 and L/24 upgrade like skirts and mg on Stubby)
-StuG III as a global upgrade like Light Tankovy Support and once that upgrades is done you can either build them or replace from Panzer III near Factory like a squad near buildings
-Panzer II so we don't have to make the Wespe doctrinal
-Wespe same thing as StuG III and it upgrades from Panzer II
-Panzer II Luchs
And those are all the units i want to see buildable!

[Ghost]

@Loupblanc

are you serious 

Said number built not important. Fine, let's change American
 faction so no shermans, no garand rifle, nothing they actually
 used.

so you didn't get the point. all i said was that you can't design the ostheer faction looking for the most used vehicles. cause if you do we will have panzer IV, panther and tiger again. but we are looking to include other vehicles as well to offer something new.
not like relic ("bergetiger") but vehicles that have actually been used. but sometimes you cannot be 100% historically accurate for balance reasons. keep in mind it's a game not a historical simulation.

and stop complaining about "german auto win"  maybe you haven't noticed but we are looking for balanced suggestions 

[Aouch]

As far as I can see, EVERYONE in this thread who posted within the last 3 pages agreed with the PzIII/StugIII thing. 
But for some reason, a very special person keeps on talking about numbers of tanks used, about stupid Starcraft-comparisons and removing Sherman and T-34 from existing factions. 

I really don't get it. Everyone agreed. Everyone mentioned that CoH isn't about 100%-realism.
Could please at least someone explain to me, why this person keeps on posting if the discussion died 4 pages ago, because nearly everybody agreed?
Seriously.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

A small résumé:

Panzer II:
We present u Ausf. L - know as Luchs Spähpanzer.

Panzer III:
Tank is already confirmed. We have present u pics of the
Pz III Ausf. J with 5cm KwK L/60 and Pz III Ausf. N with 7,5cm KwK L/24.
So u can be sure that Pz III will be a part of the Ostheer.

Panzer IV:
Community is divided.
Number of user want to see Pz IV - number of user wont see Pz IV

Panzer V "Panther":
Same like Pz IV.

Panzer VI "Tiger":
Same like Pz IV.

All in all we have found a lot of reason FOR AND AGAINST each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.

Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.

Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here

[Versedhorison]

All in all we have found a lot of reason FOR AND AGAINST each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.

Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.

Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here

Well theres the problem, we aside from the dev's don't know what the actual concept and direction of the ostheer is gonna be so we can't really make a discussion about how certain tanks would be consistent with a concept we don't know about. So far this thread has been a mix of wishlisting and arguements over people opinions. On the other hand there have been useful posts over people making ideas and plans for how certain tanks would work if they were in the mod at all. This kind of discussion about how certain tanks can work in the mod is what this thread should be about despite my original post. Anything else is just reiterations of what people have been over before and is now pointless. so for starters...

In terms of German tanks in general:
*Panzer I isn't confirmed. I personally see it working just like the T-90 but maybe a bit weaker vs vehicles. OR make it the command tank version like what the brits have except giving different effects.
*Panzer II Luchs IS in the ostheer. I personally see it working on a similar level to that of the T-70 or of the Armoured Cars.
*Panzer 35t and 38t Isn't confirmed. I personally see them as somewhere in between the panzer II and panzer III in terms of everything.
*Panzer III IS in the ostheer. I personally see it coming into play T3 as something initially weaker, cheaper and more numerous than the t-34, sherman, Panzer IV, cromwell and Stug IV to an extent. However I see it gaining upgrades to continue its usefulness later on in the game as a specialized tank being less numerous and more expensive. So of course give it better armour and a better or specialized gun eg maybe to give it something like treadbreaker to help support T4 ostheer tanks or make it like the Panzer elite panzer IV since it did get a short barreled 75mm gun IRL.
*Panzer IV Isn't confirmed. The way I see it you've got the Wehrmacht version with the big gun or the Panzer Elite version with the little gun unless there is another version I am unaware of.
*Panzer V Panther Isn't Confirmed. There really is only one way to do this thing and imo it probably should be in the ostheer because every faction needs some heavy(ish) tank that comes in late game and isn't doctrine specific.
*Panzer VI Tiger Isn't Confirmed. probably doesn't need to be in the ostheer gameplay wise although that just depends on the final ostheer concept and how they play. The debate over whether it should be a doctrine call in or buildable continues however imo having it buildable would be nicer to free up more doctrine slots for cool new stuff that already isn't in the game.
*Panzer VI Tiger II Isn't confirmed. If it does get in the ostheer make it with the henchel turret.

I might go into assault guns and TD later but I'll leave it at that for now.

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

FOR AND AGAINST[/b] each of this tanks ( PzIII, IV, V and VI ).
The final question is - out of my view - which tank fits best into Ostheer concept.
So the final decision will be consistent with the final Ostheer idea and concept.
THAT is the next stap of this discussion.

Like Aouch said: This thread died some pages ago. Everything is said.
You can reactivated this discussion when dev team had present u the final Ostheer concept.

Till this moment i think we hadnt something new for this thread, or?
So i wont close this thread BUT when the next posts are spam posts or recapitulations of known stuff i have to close here

Thank you very much.

As far as I can see, EVERYONE in this thread who posted within the last 3 pages agreed with the PzIII/StugIII thing. 
But for some reason, a very special person keeps on talking about numbers of tanks used, about stupid Starcraft-comparisons and removing Sherman and T-34 from existing factions. 

I really don't get it. Everyone agreed. Everyone mentioned that CoH isn't about 100%-realism.
Could please at least someone explain to me, why this person keeps on posting if the discussion died 4 pages ago, because nearly everybody agreed?
Seriously.

Correct 

[Seeme]

You all know why I don't take parts on these types of topics?

[Loupblanc]

 - Why, seeme?
 
 - Non historical mod : Why make Germans be ostHeer, then?
 It might as well be Japanese against the Soviets. I mean, history
 or reality isn't a factor here, right?
 - #1 Tank in Germany army not represented in ANY of the three
 factions... ... Yes. That's like removing the Sherman and T34 from
 the Americans and Soviets. It really is.
 - My point with the PzIII. I don't have a problem with the PzIII
 being there, as long as it's relationship to the StuIII is there, too.
 My ISSUE. Is that if you compare it's role against the PzIV...
 The OstHeer PzIII will be 1) As powerful, as solid. 2) Cheaper.
 3) More numerous. 4) Earlier. That's 4 advantages against the
 PzIV. How is there balance in that?

  Seriously, you won't need OstHeer to have a tank destroyer
 if there's 3x PzIII (each superior to the T34) at point blank as
 the first T34 rolls out. Then it'll be 4 against 1, 5 against 1...

  I still think my idea is 1) Historical, 2) Balanced.

  How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??

 A thousand apologies for my rant like form of expression,
 I think those are serious considerations to think about.

Post Merge: September 23, 2010, 01:50:24 AM
 I'm even in agreement over PzII, MarderII, Wespe.
 I hope wespe wouldn't be 100% stats of Priest, though.
 
 I'm even in agreement over BUILDABLE Tiger Mk1. But with in-
 built weaknesses. Like IS-2. It had it's place on the Eastern Front.
 
 Ah, I'm sorry. It's true. non-historical.
 Well, put Leopard II and King Tiger MkVI, then. Although KT was
 clearly Western Front, not East Front
 (Or was it JagTiger? Now I'm confused)

[Versedhorison]

  How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??

+1

[Ghost]

  How can PzIII being superior to the PzIV make sense??

no one ever mentioned that. and pls stop making big senseless posts like that. it takes time to read it and offers NOTHING that makes sense, sorry but it had be said