ostheer medium tanks

[Ryousan]

Well I was not against giving a main spot to the StugIII what I meant is that I was against  in removing the main spot out of the PzIII.

I just dont like the "recovery" idea. Everybody complined when anyone proposed to include a recovery/advanced repair unit into the Ostheer because it would be "removing the uniqueness of the Panzer Elite" And because seems a little too specific: A repair tank that will be aimlessly wandering the battlefield, waiting for a PanzerIII to be cracked open for then to enter and into turn it into a much cooler vehicle?

Not buying it for two reasons:

It is an almost complete waste of resources for the almost the same price you can have another PzIII, another vehicle or even a StugIII (I dont know if you gave them any cost cost, but for balance reasons I belive it must somewhere near there).

Secondly, if recovering PzIII is the only thing that it does,   sound a bit useless a in the practice and to make it a repair vehicle spells like Panzer Elite, And I think that is somewhere you are not desiring to go

Bergetiger is cool because is not unit specific, and can recover anything you or your allies can deploy. If BergePanzerIII is that specific, perhaps as doctrine unit but doesnt convince me for being buildable. I think I made my point...

Also I have my doubts about the "Upgrading into StugIII" system. But it seems solid enough for giving it a shot.

It's like saying he doesn't want USA to have Sherman,
 but instead wants to buff Greyhounds to fight Panthers.

From the very beginning, I agreed that there was no way a PzIII could take down a T-34 or whatever. And still as far a I know Panthers still beat the crap out of Shermans dont they  ?

I also agreed that to fill that gap in the Ostheer strategy, a good tank destroyer/assault gun should be included. StugIII is a great candidate for the job, it was an awesome vehicle, the pinnacle of "PzIII evolution".

I just dont agreee in some the ways you are including it, that is all    

[Cozmin95]

The Panzer IV was made for a reason, they needed to replace the obsolete Panzer III!
I agree that the Panzer III should be in the Ostheer but not as a main tank, more like a faster medium a bit below the main tanks of other factions(Sherman/T-34/Cromwell/Panzer IV)
Also a nice addition would be the Panzer II as an anti infantry tank, like the PE Armored Car/Puma!
If you need a TD the Stug III with the long barrel is a good choice by me!
Also the Panzer II Luchs could be a heavy scout!
The Panzer III/IV could be your mainstream tank equal to T-34/Sherman etc and if you need more tanks you could always go with the VKs(3001H,3601H,3001P,3002DB)either for a buildable or doctrines in which case would be nice to see some bigger VKs(4502 Ausf P1,4502 Ausf P2)or some tanks of the E-series and these ones would go great with a doctrine of prototype units, some sort of Experimental Doctrine!

PS: Panzer III should have the 5cm KwK 38 L/42 gun!

I never said i wanted the Ostheer to have the Panzer IV, i just said it's better than the Panzer III and it shouldn't be used as the main tank!And the VK's were just in case! 

[Aouch]

I agree with you, Ryousan. Bergepanzer III won't be present in every game you play.
But it could be usefull in different ways. First, for its "main purpose", turning destroyed Pz III into StuG III.
 For example, if you mess up with an assault and most of your Panzers are lost, I think you will be happy if you can secure the sector with some remaining units (of course with high risks, since they would lack in other places in your frontline), drive your Bergepanzer into the cleared area, "produce" some StuGs and leave the sector with at least some help against enemy tanks.
 Or you could send the Bergepz with your advancing tanks, to help them staying alive. The Bergepz has the same speed, so it can move around with them, where normal Pios couldn't (+ 2x repair-rate). Also, it has way more armor around it, unlike soldiers.

I think it could be a usefull vehicle, but you aren't forced to build it.

In fact, I think the whole Pz3->Stug3-story with its different ways how to actually do it on the battlefield is an interesting thing and could help keeping the OH new and fresh without stealing from existing ideas (OK, Bergetiger-Bergepanzer...  ).

Post Merge: September 12, 2010, 10:53:40 AM@ Cozmin: Come on, PzIV is already part of the other two axis-factions.
Don't you think it would be boring to see them again?
If you introduce PzIV into OH, it could easily go into the direction WH 1.5. And that's what we don't want. PzIII/StugIII is a completely different way how to implement tank-warfare into CoH. It has some flavor of British Cromwell/Firefly but it's outstanding. Unlike adding PzIV.

PzII will be part of the Ostheer. Ausf. L "Luchs" is the keyword.

Loup and I were talking about PzIII first having the L/42 and later moving on to L/60 to have something against Sherman75.
Also, PzIII wasn't faster as PzIV. I think actually it was a bit slower, since Ausf. J and later variants weights more than the original concept of the PzIII took into account.

Oh, and please go away with your VK-models. 

[TheReaper]

For example, if you mess up with an assault and most of your Panzers are lost, I think you will be happy if you can secure the sector with some remaining units (of course with high risks, since they would lack in other places in your frontline), drive your Bergepanzer into the cleared area, "produce" some StuGs and leave the sector with at least some help against enemy tanks.

Now that's nice. If you messed up an assault you don't need bergepanzer, but restart the match. And well experienced player will destroy the wrecks (talking about experience). PE BergeTiger is useful if the wrecks is close to you're base, or they in the base. Otherwise while the recovery whicle can't move it's sitting duck out there for any kind of AT. In that way you recall the bergetank or hoping to recover quick enoug to drive away with it. The Bergetiger worked once when I played with my mate, after that he knows the trick and destroyed all wrecks in sight.
After a messed up assault you're need some fighting units, not a recovery wehicle.

That's my point.

[Loupblanc]

 - I live at -5 Greenwich (New York time)
 - My idea of the Pz3 is a 8 pop Stuart. Pretty much.
 Except that it can cripple-specialize down the road
 (Losing it's all purpose role). But it's STILL a stuart.
 And will be chewed on by T34/Shermans.
 
  When Aouch says Pz3L60+T = T34/85 he fails to
 adress a point: It comes at a price : The loss of
 AI capability (Should be AT gun versus infantry
 level). Plus, needing to upgrade THEN to use tungsten
 is innefficient. *BUT* This helps this 'Stuart' stay in
 the game. A more efficient way is to go StuG3.
 But this further hurts the anti infantry role. My
 concept of the StuG3 is an 8 pop tank. More similar
 to Hetzer (also 8 pop) and Marder3 (Also 8 pop)

  I believe in following history as much as possible.
 Otherwise, might as well put Klingon Battlecruisers and
 BF2142 Walker Tanks on the battlefield.

  StuG3 was *THE* most numerous German tank of WW2.
 Would you remove the Sherman from USA faction?
 
  Since we propose to give Pz3 to the Ostheer, I PROPOSE
 to find ways to START with Pz3, then to end up/switch
 to StuG3 in a huge way. Now, this is not necessary
 (I don't make Shermans with all upgrades, all the time)

  Not all, but most Pz3 were changed to StuG3 from 1943+
 
 *ERROR* The Panzer4 was *NOT* built to replace the
 Panzer3. The Panzer4 was made about same time as Pz3,
 but had a different role. It replaced the Pz3 in the AT
 /All purpose role because Panzer 3 couldn't do the job
 anymore. Which is why I propose to make Panzer3
 keeping up... inneficient. Did they throw away all Pz3's
 once they made Pz4 long barrel? No. They converted to
 StuG3.

  - I'm just proposing a thousand ways to make Pz3
 switch to StuG3 (You don't HAVE to, but the tools are
 there)(Like you don't need to make USA riflemen to win)

 ** Pz3 short 50 is Early tank *Stuart*
 That can hurt later tanks with upgrades - but not efficient.
 ** StuG3 is efficient.
 - Is cheaper than P3L60+Tungsten.
 - Can be converted, can be built. Salvaged Pz3
 become StuG3. Non-doctrine. Is default, like Sherman 76
 is not doctrine-specific.

 It was most numerous tank of Germany in WW2.
 Do you propose to make T34 doctrine-specific?

 : : :
 
 Yes, Panzer4 were used on East Front. Panthers, Tigers.
 the best approach would be to take Wehrmacht, PE
 and Ostheer and make *ONE* faction that can do it
 all... then USA/Brits etc would want the same done to them
 and, then we'd have to make use that KT can only
 be used against Americans, and British/USA can't fight
 on map when Soviet is present, and... ... no. Won't happen.

  So we're building OstHeer with the idea of telling
 the story of the Panzer3 and the StuG3 ... instead
 of the Panzer4. Not making the Panzer3 as good as the
 Panzer4, but telling a limited part of the story, while
 keeping true to history.

 **
 
 On topic of salvage :
 USA, Brits, Wehr have Medic/Salvage of Infantry.
 So should Soviets, on a different level (Don't need
 medics? But it's done automatically?)

 Soviets had salvage, but it was removed.
 PE Salvage *REPLACES* their infantry-salvage
 capability. It's one or the other.
 
 Will OstHeer have medic-salvage of infantry
 (It'll be the 4th faction to have this)
 Or shall we give them a vehicle salvage of tanks
 (It'll be 2nd faction to have this). So your argument
 of it being PE-specific doesn't work if you propose
 to give it medics Right?

 The BergerPanzer could be 6 pop instead of 10.
 And minus heavy crush.
 Cheaper.
 And all part of giving tools to 'have lots of StuG3's
 (While still making Panzer3s). It's just an option.
 Nothing more.

 ** If you think my StuG3 idea is OP :
 : StuG3 is same thing as StuG4 ...
 - All Pz3 can be made into StuG3.
 - Maybe less health (It's a Stuart after all)
 - 8 pop. Not 6. Not 4.
 - 0+1 MG (Like StuG4)
 - Mid-price between StuG4 and Pz4 (As Pz3)
 + Cheaper to make than to convert.
 + Marder ability comes at a price : Lockdown
 Can camouflage and First Strike.
 And not as strong as Marder. (Also a Pz3 hull
 BTW. That's why it's a Marder... 3!). I'd balance the
 AT punch of the Marder3 against the fact that
 the StuG3 still has armor and has SOME AI capability.

 **

 Topic of the Pz2 Luch...
 You people keep wanting to make it into a RIF
 (Recon in Force) unit. It wasn't a front line unit much
 after the Battle of France. They mostly got converted to...

 Up first we have the first self-propelled artillery gun to make an appearance in FH2! The SdKfz 124 Wespe is a German mobile artillery piece that saw action from 1943 to 1945.



When the need for a self-propelled artillery gun arose, the Panzer II was chosen and removed from service after its inherent drawbacks became known during the Battle of France. The Wespe was little more than a Panzer II chassis with the turret removed and a 105mm howitzer and gun-shield added. It first saw action in 1943 on the Eastern Front and proved so successful, that the German high command ordered that all Panzer II production be reserved for the Wespe, which effectively canceled other projects such as the Marder II. By mid-1944 682 Wespes had been produced along with another 158 weaponless ammunition carriers. The SdKfz 124 Wespe was modeled and skinned by Toddel.

 http://forgottenhope.warumdarum.de/screenshotsfh2/news/100819/wespe.jpg

 hehe

 This would be perfect in our Panzer3 to StuG3 discussions.
 Could make Panzer2 to Wespe and Marder2 conversions too.
 
 * Wespe will be in OstHeer. So think about it.
 
 Only ouch is that Wespe is the OstHeer's priest tank
 (A sherman conversion for 8 to 12 POP)
 Since this is a Panzer 2 conversion, I'd propose to
 make it 4 to 6 pop and have it fire 3 shots instead of
 6 (It's same caliber after all) ?

 Just throwing that idea out there. What think?

 * TheReaper.
 No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
 wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
 won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
 shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all?

 No point in making tanks because good players
 make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
 said

 **
 
 OH! Just caught onto something Aouch just said :
 Using BergerPanzers to keep Panzer3s alive as they
 advance... actually, that's brilliant. And can help
 JUSTIFY further nerfing of the Pz3 as the Stuart-
 trying-to-fight Panzer4's idea.

  I really like the idea of (Similar to) a 8 point stuart
 trying to take on Panzer4s and Panthers inefficiently.
 If you weaken the Pz3 just enough, you can bring it
 to 6 pop (with StuG3). Or how about 8 pts to
 start, but drops to 6 pop once you buy Panzer3Berger
 tank (Thus giving you some wriggle room to add a
 Panzer3Berger to your army).

  I really like the idea. Thanks Aouch

[Ryousan]

My idea of the Pz3 is a 8 pop Stuart. Pretty much.
 Except that it can cripple-specialize down the road
 (Losing it's all purpose role). But it's STILL a stuart.
 And will be chewed on by T34/Shermans.


 ** If you think my StuG3 idea is OP :
 : StuG3 is same thing as StuG4 ...
 - All Pz3 can be made into StuG3.
 - Maybe less health (It's a Stuart after all)
 - 8 pop. Not 6. Not 4.
 - 0+1 MG (Like StuG4)
 - Mid-price between StuG4 and Pz4 (As Pz3)
 + Cheaper to make than to convert.
 + Marder ability comes at a price : Lockdown
 Can camouflage and First Strike.
 And not as strong as Marder. (Also a Pz3 hull
 BTW. That's why it's a Marder... 3!). I'd balance the
 AT punch of the Marder3 against the fact that
 the StuG3 still has armor and has SOME AI capability.

Now Im completly lost I dont belive that putting the PzIII in the same level that the Stuart is a proper analogy. Hopefully I will be the one that is mistaken and will be quickly corrected.

If not...     

Remember, What you are basically proposing is to transform a Stuart into PanzerIV-like vehicle. Upgraded Shermans/T-34s can still blow them to hell if they have "stuarts health" and that leaves the Ostheer without an answer to heavy tanks.

Another problem with Loup"s concept of a fragile Pz/StugIII is  for example: Tank hunters can eat them alive,indeed USA and Soviets are disturbingly effective when taking out light vehicles, perhaps even vulnerable to american MG-Piercing Rounds??? 

Basically meaning that OH tanks are easily predated by something enemy can deploy rapidly in high numbers .The concept is good but has too many flaws, what the point of giving them cool abilities and upgrades is they are destroyed by something the other player can obtain without much effort?

The switch betwwen PzIII and Stug can be corrected with further work ( thoughI would rather see them as separate vehicles that share upgrades as PE grens). For the
PzIII I like the idea of specialized upgrade,

But when making them like zippo packs that will blow up almost instantly when shot by bigger guns. It seems a bit pointless to me...

In that sense I think historical accuracy must be put aside...

     

[Loupblanc]

 @ Ryousan :
 - The Stuart is an example, as it is bigger than the Puma,
 yet smaller than the Panzer4. It can still be tweaked along.
 
 * I understand the vulnerability to AT weapons, and thank
 god, too! Or else we'd have OstHeer fielding sherman-like
 tanks when USA are still using Jeeps The concept is to
 take an idea and to make it fit. Balance as needed, while
 striving as hard as possible for historical accuracy.
 
 * Fine. If you don't like my idea, we can go with :
 Get rid of Panzer3/StuG3 and put Panzer4/Panzer5
 And make OstHeer into Wermacht 1.5
 (Not many Pz3 running around in 1944+ anyways)
 (Lots of StuG3 - THE MOST NUMEROUS GERMAN
 tank of the war!) - But, meh, put Tigers instead.

 * Or, make give Panzer3 the Panzer4 stats.
 In which case, you can Panzer3 will be equal to
 Sherman/T34. And get rid of StuG3. You might
 as well get rid of Sherman/T34 and give Greyhound
 /T70 their stats, that is what you are proposing.

  To every idea, there is flaw.
 Every pro comes at the cost of a con.
 Take StarCraft. Lots of weaker units, or few excellent
 units? / I think Wehr has the few but excellent units
 (But defensive) covered. We're talking about making
 OH an early rush group using the Panzer3 as it's MBT.
 
 To make things perfectly balanced, every doctrine
 would have to be identical, every unit, everything
 (aka: Chess).

 Now... do you propose to make Panzer3 = Sherman76
 (And completely ignore that there were more StuG3
 built, and that the surviving Pz3 became StuG3?)
 
 ----
 Small note on Fragile Pz3/StuG3 :
 It ought to be. To reflect that T34/Sherman ate them
 alive (That's why Panther4/Panthers took over)

 How about this? :
 No point giving OstHeer tanks (or anyone) as long
 as opposing team has Anti Tanks.

 What I would propose is to find solutions to the Pz3/Stug3
 vulnerability to AT weapons (ie: Skirts, anyone?)
 As well as tactics. We were talking about OstHeer tanks
 giving cover to OstHeer troops, for example.

 Hmm, there is something called a cover.
 (Different analogy). 2 Forks, 2 knives, special spoon,
 2-3 plates, 2 glasses, etc. I'm trying to propose something
 DIFFERENT from the norm. OF COURSE a few things will
 need to be adjusted. It's a question of crafting a 'whole'.
 
 The Pz3 to StuG3 conversion fits very nicely
 with the fact that Pz2 and the Wespe will be in.
 Those also convert into the other.

 If Pz3 is inferior to Pz4 (as it is) then it's excellent reason
 to make them into StuG3 later on (As is historical)(Didn't
 say you HAD to, didn't say you had to convert all of them)
 - It's also logical that they ought to be more vulnerable
 to AT fire.

 If AT fire is such an issue, what would YOU suggest?
 Giving Pz3 identical stats to the Panzer4 ?
 
 You've just invented Wehr 1.5. Congratulations.
 - And Deleted the British Stuart (And Puma and T70
 and Greyhound and...) Unless they're given Sherman76+
 all upgrades equivalencies.

 @ Ryousan :
 In that sense I think historical accuracy must be put aside...
 
 Fine, we'll put in Klingon battlecruisers and BF2142
 Walker TankMechs as per YOUR recommendation
 Plus a few Protoss Colossus

Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 12:11:32 AM
 This thread started this way :
 okay so in regards to medium tanks for the ostheer I think we can narrow it down for the ostheer to at least two I see that would fit in CoH and that would have to be the panzer IV or some varient of it or the panther. Now I know some people want the panzer III in the ostheer too so do I however I don't see it as a comparable tank to that of the T-34 or the sherman or cromwell in a game like CoH. If the panzer III gets in the ostheer it will probably be an earier tank than the main late game tanks. So what would people preffer to see in terms of the factory based tanks?
 
 ----------------
 Everyone agrees that Panzer3 isn't comparable to T34/
 Sherman/Panzer4.
 
 But we want to add it.
 
 - Your solution is to give it T34/Sherman stats?
 (It's also like giving up on the Sherman76/HVSS/Easy8
 and saying Sherman 75 can kill Tigers).

 But let's not be historical here...
 And forget the StuG3.
 And the T34
 And the Sherman
 
 Let's just buff Pumas, T70 and Greyhounds. Yes?

[TheReaper]

* TheReaper.
 No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
 wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
 won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
 shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all?

 No point in making tanks because good players
 make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
 said

Haha, that's true gone to a bit sarcastic. Funny making this Ostheer, becouse we have to do with the existing material. I just making these examples as regular CoH fan, like a car driver, who drives the car, but not really knows how it's engine work.

[Aouch]

WHAT DA FUCK?
Now I'm completely lost.

@ Loup: Can you still stop talking about making PzIII into a Stuart? That's not the case and it shouldn't be the case.
PzIII L/42 should easily be able to take out Stuarts. Point. End of discussion. I thought we agreed on this fact?
And also please stop talking about StugIII being the most numerous whatever... 
I think we all get what you meant. No need to make every of your posts into a one-site-long statement which repeats your former statements 1:1.

I think most of us agree, that a PzIII with 5cm L/42 should lose in a 1on1 vs. Sherman75. However, it should be much stronger than a tiny Stuart-wannabe-tank. PzIII with long 5cm L/60 should be at least on par with Sherm75.
Otherwise it would not make any sence at all to produce PzIII!

When Sherman76 and T-34 arrive, a PzIII should be able to take on them, either with the help of Tungsten (expensive, we all know) or with a superior number.
If IS-2 and T-34/85 arrive, an OH-player should be forced to go StuG III.

BUT HE SHOULDN'T PISS HIS F*CKING PANTIES WHEN A SHERMAN ARRIVE BECAUSE HE ONLY HAS PANZER III !

The PzKpfW. III wasn't a paper-tank with its crew throwing rocks out of the turret-hatch. Damnit.

End of the rant. 

Post Merge: September 12, 2010, 04:23:16 PMI've something more to say:
In the desert, the PzIII proved to be superior to the Cromwell. Sorry, was thinking of Crusader, but in that time, the Afrika-Korps used L/42 PzIII, not much L/60, which could take on them.

And it's also a proven fact, that late version of PzIII could take on Shermans. Ask LordRommel or anyone other how has some experience in this branch.
Loup is saying, we want to turn PzIII into Shermans? Short answer: yes. Because that how it was. PzIII with the long L/60 could take on Shermans. They could also take on the early versions of the T-34 because in this stage of war, a T-34 in most cases arrived in a group of lighter tanks. Germans separated the T-34 from the rest and it was easy-going for the tank-crews. Of course, when a bunch of those soviet beasts arrived, good-night to PzIII.

[Loupblanc]

 @Ryousan :
 Not buying it for two reasons:

It is an almost complete waste of resources for the almost the same price you can have another PzIII, another vehicle or even a StugIII (I dont know if you gave them any cost cost, but for balance reasons I belive it must somewhere near there).
 
 You're not offering anything new except for giving
 the Panzer3 'Panzer4 stats'.
 
 At least WE are trying for something original, here.
 
 - - -
 Panzer 3 - StuG3/4 - Panzer 4 - Panzer 5 - Panzer 6
 Should be the progression. Of COURSE the Panzer 3
 should be weaker.

 Solutions :
 Get rid of Panzer3, put Panzer 4 : Wehr 1.5
 Give Panzer3 'Panzer4 stats' : Wehr 1.5
 
 Or go historical Weaker earlier Pz3 with crippling
 upgrades (Called such, because those upgrades make
 them lose something important) culminating in the StuG3.

 Pz3L60 loses generalist role, AI role.
 Pz3L24 loses generalist role, AT role.
 Tungsten is inefficient (But does help)
 (Note Pz3L24 can use Tungsten)
 StuG3, well, is a StuG. I don't want it to be a super tank.
 
 The only upgrades that aren't crippling are the Skirts
 and the top machine gun (2+1) or (0+1).

 I also think Pz3 to StuG3 conversion should come later.
 Can build StuG3 separately, but conversion option comes
 after. Perhaps as part as buying Pz2 to Wespe conversion?
 (Tank to SPG factory conversions it could be called).

 That way, you'll probably go upgrades first.
 But Pz3 Short 50 to StuG3 conversion should be okay.
 (Short 50, or L60, or L24) Obviously, you can't convert
 all because you'd then be stuck with a bunch of StuG,
 and no way to deal with infantry/AT guns.

 -------------
 You know, I'd love it if I could write short, precise.
 Not rant for 20 pages. I feel I have excellent ideas, balance,
 etc. I just can't phrase them right.

 How about we have this debate in French?
 THEN I could express myself right.

 Anyone want to be my agent?
 Aouch seems to understand what I am trying to say,
 and to be able to write it into short-easy-to-read form

 
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 12:27:07 AM

* TheReaper.
 No need for Recovery vehicle because other kills
 wrecks. Sigh. Well, I could argue that a good player
 won't let other get fuel to make tanks, so OstHeer
 shouldn't be allowed to obtain Fuel at all?

 No point in making tanks because good players
 make AT guns, etc. Think about what you just
 said

Haha, that's true gone to a bit sarcastic. Funny making this Ostheer, becouse we have to do with the existing material. I just making these examples as regular CoH fan, like a car driver, who drives the car, but not really knows how it's engine work.

 - Yea, I know. It's hard making it all fit.
 The easiest thing would be to just give Pz4 stats to the
 Pz3, give WehrMacht faction a different skin, only. And
 be done. No one could argue that it's not balanced.
 Easy, expeditive... sane... and BORING

Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 12:44:30 AMAouch : Quote:
@ Loup: Can you still stop talking about making PzIII into a Stuart? That's not the case and it shouldn't be the case.
PzIII L/42 should easily be able to take out Stuarts. Point. End of discussion. I thought we agreed on this fact?
 - We never discussed Stuart/PzIII. I am using Stuart
 as an example of 'something between Greyhound and
 Sherman'. I am not saying they are equal, but I DO
 think it's an excellent exemple of why PzIIIL42 would
 WANT to upgrade. T34 vs Stuart is a VERY good
 example of 'T34 shock'. Yup excellent reason to
 upgrade.
 (I don't know who would win between a Stuart and
 a PzIIIL42 but since the Stuart has a short 37mm
 (same gun as the Greyhound), well... Maybe a
 Stuart with the Puma's 50mm upgrade would be
 about right. Put on Skirts, top sided MG and tungsten
 ammo and you have it about right. A decent tank
 that comes earlier yet is inferior to Sherman/T34.)

And also please stop talking about StugIII being the most numerous whatever... 
I think we all get what you meant. No need to make every of your posts into a one-site-long statement which repeats your former statements 1:1.
 - Then stop trying to make Pz3 into decent MBT on it's
 own. You're trying to make Wehr 1.5 again (Read your
 own admission written today)(Of OStHeer light)

I think most of us agree, that a PzIII with 5cm L/42 should lose in a 1on1 vs. Sherman75. However, it should be much stronger than a tiny Stuart-wannabe-tank. PzIII with long 5cm L/60 should be at least on par with Sherm75.
Otherwise it would not make any sence at all to produce PzIII!
 - Er. No. *I* agree that PzIIIL42 should lose 1on1 vs
 Sherman75. Ryousan wants PzIIIL42 to WIN against
 Sherman75
 - I agree PzIIIL42(50mm medium) vs Stuart(37mm Short)
 is a PzIII win. I want Pz3 to be a Stuart with a 50mm Puma
 gun. Still not enough for a Sherman.
 - PzIIIL60 on par with a Sherman75. Yea with Tungsten
 ammo. We're talking of making a Stuart kill a Panzer 4
 here (Poor example, I know. I'm just trying to explain an
 idea. I'm not suggesting actually using Stuart stats)
 (Mind it comes at cost of losing AI capability)

When Sherman76 and T-34 arrive, a PzIII should be able to take on them, either with the help of Tungsten (expensive, we all know) or with a superior number.
If IS-2 and T-34/85 arrive, an OH-player should be forced to go StuG III.

 - Sherman AND T34 were made in superior numbers.
 I don't think OstHeer should have ability to have more
 tanks than the Russians or American.
 - Oh yea. Panzer3 should be completely outclassed when
 IS2/T34-85 comes out. StuG3 would be the way to go.
 
BUT HE SHOULDN'T PISS HIS F*CKING PANTIES WHEN A SHERMAN ARRIVE BECAUSE HE ONLY HAS PANZER III !
 - Sure. He should piss his panties if he has a PzIIIL42
 No Tungsten and AT insufficient. Like a Stuart meeting
 a Panzer4. Upgrade.

The PzKpfW. III wasn't a paper-tank with its crew throwing rocks out of the turret-hatch. Damnit.
 - I'm using an example I'm not saying I want it to have
 Stuart stats PzIIIL42 has better gun anyways. So even
 in a 1 on 1 duel Stuart would lose to PzIIIL42. We agree.

End of the rant. 
 - We should chat damn it

Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 12:23:16 AMI've something more to say:
In the desert, the PzIII proved to be superior to the Cromwell.

And it's also a proven fact, that late version of PzIII could take on Shermans. Ask LordRommel or anyone other how has some experience in this branch.
Loup is saying, we want to turn PzIII into Shermans? Short answer: yes. Because that how it was. PzIII with the long L/60 could take on Shermans. They could also take on the early versions of the T-34 because in this stage of war, a T-34 in most cases arrived in a group of lighter tanks. Germans separated the T-34 from the rest and it was easy-going for the tank-crews. Of course, when a bunch of those soviet beasts arrived, good-night to PzIII.
[/quote]
 
 - I agree that PzIIIL60+tungsten can take on Sherman
 75(Without +/76 refits)(sandbags yknow) or T34/76.
 I'm saying PzIIIL42 shouldn't.
 - And you keep missing 1 point.
 PzIIIL60 OVERspecialises in the AT role. It loses
 it's generalist capability as part of the price.

  We should chat.

[Blackbishop]

@Aouch, could you settle down a bit?

He clearly stated that was meaning to the type of unit: Stuart<Panzer 3<Panzer4

Double Panzer 3 > Sherman 76
Panzer 3 using AP rounds has chance to win against Sherman 76.

That if the opponent hasn't anti-tank gun(s) or other similar-ability unit to support it...

But is recommended to use a Stug 3 on that. Even if Panzer 3 can engage with T-34/76 or Sherman 76 the fact is that they aren't meant to do it. Because of that the roles between the PzIV and PzIII were reversed and the Pzs III converted, most of them on Stugs III. They weren't suited to do it and their couldn't be improved further, unlike PzIV.

[Loupblanc]

 @BlackBishop !!!!!!!
 THANK YOU! LOL SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS ME!
 
 What you said... is ... EXACTLY...
 what I've been trying to say

 How come you could say it so simply?! Tell me your secret!
 - Can you comment on the Pz2 to Wespe conversion idea?
 It fits this into the Pz3 to StuG3 conversion idea.

[Aouch]

Sorry, blackbishop, I just went crazy a little bit, because I was sure that Loup and I were the same opinion and now I'm totally on Ryousan's side.
However, I'll now PM with Loup instead of making this thread into an endless discussion... 

[Loupblanc]

 
Nubrannosaurus
Ingenery

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Posts: 20



 
Re: Salutations !
« Sent to: Loupblanc on: September 09, 2010, 06:27:18 PM »
Quote  Reply  Remove 
Hi Loupblanc,

Thanks for the comment, I appreciate it.  I looked into the medium tank discussion and to be honest I need to do some major graphing and mapping out of the existing units for the vCoF and OF to give an opinion of my own.  I've been out of the CoH loop for quite some time and I can't visualize it well enough to really understand what you guys are debating.

One's thing for sure though is that I've read your posts and you're going at it the right way.  I'm glad to see people like Auoch be contributing members to this board but it appears his ideas for the Ostheer are based more on sheer difference from the other factions rather than usefulness or rationality.  You, on the other hand, provide a nice historical basis but much more importantly you refer to game mechanics.  You've often referred to how the Ostheer's medium tank would react to the Allies' medium tank, which is crucial to balance.  You've also spoken of when the medium tank becomes available in comparison with the other Allied medium tanks -- again, another crucial consideration.

Keep it up, you're looking at the theoretical Ostheer far better than most people.  I'm trying to get involved with these threads but I don't have a lot of time to map everything out.  Maybe I will sometime soon.

Good luck!

P.S. Didn't have time to look at the soviet hero system you designed, sorry!
 
 I received this in my private messages!

Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 01:01:17 AM

Sorry, blackbishop, I just went crazy a little bit, because I was sure that Loup and I were the same opinion and now I'm totally on Ryousan's side.
However, I'll now PM with Loup instead of making this thread into an endless discussion... 

 - Ryousan wants no StuG3, and PanzerIII with Panther
 stats, no BergerPanzer, no conversions. Nothing new,
 and original. Except making the Panzer3 into a tank that
 fought till 1945 and was a match for opposition
 = Wehr 1.5 So OstHeer could be original in being a
 Faction with no salvage (Like 4 other factions, instead
 of 1). Might as well get rid of Shermans/T34s and give
 T70/Greyhounds Panther stats.

 Let's not worry about history, he said.
 Guess that means we can add the Japanese to the
 OstHeer.

[Blackbishop]

About these concepts, Panzer 3->Stug 3 and Panzer 2->Wespe, have features that I like, unit preservation, but rewarded with inherited veterancy. If you manage to upgrade your Panzer 3 with vet2 to Stug 3 with vet 2 would be cool. I mean, no other faction have the choice to upgrade their current units in that way(I mean it's not anymore a PzIII, is a different unit - of course based on pzIII...).