ostheer medium tanks

[Loupblanc]

Maybe I should really get on of those IM.
 ** Yes please do.

Now:
1) I don't want to make PzIII into PzIV.
 ** Thank you.
 PzIII is first very vulnerable to medium tanks. But multi-role. Like its superior opponents. Then it's upgraded to L/60 but loses its multi-role-ability. But now it should be on-par with Sherman75, so in a 1on1: Both are destroyed. 
 ** I agree. I agree. I agree.
 ** Yes. it LOSES multi role ability.
 ** I agree.

However, this situation will probably never happen in CoH, because of the Brit-style-slow-movement an attacking PzIII will usually have 2 other PzIII around him.
 ** Actually, eh. I was thinking just 1 is fine.
 I just want this to slow it down a little. Remove
 This later on. The goal is just to slow it down
 at first, not cripple it forever. Just 1+1 is good
 at first, then the 'curse' is lost.

Furthermore, I'm not giving up Stug3. I just want to the Pz3 to last some minutes on the battlefield. And not disappearing seconds after a Sherman75 arrives and kill them all. Stug3 appears AFTER Sherman76 and T-34 arrives. Otherwise, the Allies will have no chance in midgame, if Stug3 arrives too early. Remember, Stug3 also is able to kill IS2. Therefore it could potentially kill Sherms and Ts with ease. Which shouldn't happen too soon in a match.
 ** I agree. I think I lean slightly more towards
 StuG3, and you lean more towards PzIII. This is
 because of the historical 3-to-1 ratio of StuG3
 to PzIII later on. I want this to be portrayed.
 You wants lots of PzIII, few StuGIII. I don't
 want StuGIII as IS2 killer. Hmm, maybe like
 SU85?
 
Therefore, the Pz3 has to fill the gap -> Pz3L60 with tungsten kill Sherm76, Pz3L60 without tungsten kill Sherm75. With "kill" I mean it's able to potentially kill them, but also with the same chances it's destroyed by Sherm.
 ** We agree.
 ** PzIIIL42 doesn't have tungsten.
 ** PzIIIL24 DOES

2) 40/50 for 20sec. 40 is a lot, and 10 is too short. Just my opinion.
 ** I want same thing as American AT gun.
 Same cost, same duration. ... But not as good

3) Panzer 3 shouldn't be cheap. Sherman cost 420mp and 90fuel. Stug4 340mp 50fuel. Pz4 410mp 70fuel.
Therefore Pz3 should be around 350mp and 50fuel.
Take into account you have to upgrade to be on par with Sherm75 plus make more of them to start an effective assault (3+), this means the resources are lacking somewhere else.
 ** This is an area where I don't know what to say.
 (Cost specifics). I was thinking Stuart is about
 right. Better gun, but the british slow curse.
 What's Stuart cost again?
 Pz3L60+tungsten should be MORE exp than S76
 350/50 cost? Hmm Try 380/60 (Just under T34)
 We can haggle costs later, to fit.
 ** I don't want big PzIII packs. So movement
 curse I would limit at 2 not 3+
 Shouldn't have more PzIII than T34/Shermans
 Must have more StuGIII  than PzIII too.

4) Ryousan want Stugs. Believe me. He just doesn't want to have Stugs as soon as the first Sherman enters the field. Therefore, Pz3 has to be able to fight Sherm. And Stug3 has to be able to fight T-34/85 and IS2.

** I'm fine with early StuGIII, they don't have
 to be tank killers right off the start, though. They
 have short barrel versions too, yes?
 ** Pz3 has to be able to fight shermans
 INNEFICIENTLY And, yes, StuG3 to fight
 Larger stuff.
 (Note : Long Barrel 75 StuG)

Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 01:49:10 AM

What BlackBishop said is EXACTLY what I was
 trying to say.

I also agree with blackbishop, since he said that Pz3L60 is basically able to take on Sherman76, but Stug3 is  more appropriate to do this, because with tungsten you're basically shooting your ammunition-resources away. However, it should be able to kill Sherman75 without the need of tungsten.

And that's the point we seem to not agree.

 - Double Panzer 3 > Sherman 76
Panzer 3 using AP rounds has chance to win against Sherman 76.

That if the opponent hasn't anti-tank gun(s) or other similar-ability unit to support it...

But is recommended to use a Stug 3 on that. Even if Panzer 3 can engage with T-34/76 or Sherman 76 the fact is that they aren't meant to do it. Because of that the roles between the PzIV and PzIII were reversed and the Pzs III converted, most of them on Stugs III. They weren't suited to do it and their couldn't be improved further, unlike PzIV.
 
 Is what he said
 
 I think Pz3L42 should get bad shock against
 Sherman75/T34-76. PzL60 would be about
 equal (but fatally overspecialized), and would need
 tungsten against T34/85-S76 but this has to be
 inefficient. I want good reason to switch to
 StuG3 and my idea of StuG3 isn't much more
 powerful than StuG4. So if you propose a PzIII
 that is stronger than Sherman76 (and cheaper)
 why make StuGIII ?

Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 01:56:00 AM

About these concepts, Panzer 3->Stug 3 and Panzer 2->Wespe, have features that I like, unit preservation, but rewarded with inherited veterancy. If you manage to upgrade your Panzer 3 with vet2 to Stug 3 with vet 2 would be cool. I mean, no other faction have the choice to upgrade their current units in that way(I mean it's not anymore a PzIII, is a different unit - of course based on pzIII...).

** Hmm, actually, I didn't say that at all. But not because
 I am againt it, but because I didn't think about it. But I
 like it a LOT!
 ** Not true. Sherman 75 to Sherman 76 keeps it's vet
 ** T34-76 to T34-85 is a different tank
 ** Pz4 to StuG4 is a downgrade, so no point to it.
 ** Pz3 to StuG3 *IS* an upgrade, thus was done aplenty.

  Of COURSE a Pz3 upgrading to StuG3 should keep it's vet
 
 ** What do you think of Pz2 to Wespe?
 It would be a direction different from the RIF (Recon in
 Force) of the Puma. And it fits because Wespe is to be
 included in OstHeer. I was thinking it ought to have a CAP
 though. Maybe 2, maybe 3? 4 Max. Does it want to be
 a Stuka-HT (No limit), or a Priest? (Limit 2-3)(But is
 more powerful, but is doctrine max ability). I was thinking
 give it 3 shots per salvoe with cap 2-3 (Like Priest) but
 with possibility of giving it +1 shot per salvoe as a
 potential added upgrade?

Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 02:08:46 AM

I just said 3+ because I said it earlier in that thread.
I'm fine with Pz3 getting rid of it's British-style nerf with 2 tanks. However, I think this nerf should stay also later in a match. If someone wants to use Pz3, he has to have some more. Otherwise would be dumb, too, since Pz3 is weaker than most medium tanks, therefore you need more to do the same job. 
 ** PzIII shouldn't be about spam like T34/Sherman.
 I want StuGIII spam, but not PzIII spam. Slow down
 is only necessary early on. Get rid of it with first
 upgrade? And 2 Group is fine
 ** PzIII is same speed as PzIV Are WE ARGUING
 because you want to nerf PzIII and I want to Buff
 it??! LOL

Historical Ratio: In the early war, the number of Stugs were very, very, very low. Pz3 had the greatest number. This is portrayed ingame with it coming earlier and its need for 2 or more (Brit-penalty). Later, when other tanks outclassed Pz3, more Stugs came in. Just like we're trying to do in EF.
 ** In 1939/1941. Not 1944+
 ** I want in order (of arrival) Pz3, StuG, Pz4)
 So, yes PzIII comes first. We agree.
 ** Yup
 ** Fine, we agree so far.

Many Pz3 -> better enemy tanks -> need for Stug -> most Pz3 converted into Stug. 
 ** We agree except on I don't believe should
 have more PzIII than Sherman/T34. I want about
 same ratio.
 ** Yes, most converted into StuG
 
So basically, I really want lots of Pz3 and few Stugs in mid-game, BUT in late-game few Pz3 (mostly N-variants, just like IRL) and lots of Stugs for infantry-support (our lock-behind-ability) and AT.
 ** Point we disagree on is you want Germans
 to produce more PzIII than Russians/Americans
 produce T34/Shermans
 ** But I agree on more PzIII than StuGIII early.
 ** Yes, exactly (Use the british officer follow
 / PE Ammo half track follow mechanics)

To 2) I can't say anything more: Balancing testing. 
 ** Yup, needs balanced testing

To 3): Stuart 280mp 45fuel. Rest is balancing testing. But take into account that you need at least a few Pz3 to be effective, unlike Sherms, which can also work on its own (with some infantry support, whereas Pz3 acts as Panzer-battlegroup, Stug again is more like a single unit with inf-support, like Sherm).
 ** 280/45/6 is too cheap. I was thinking 380/60/6
 or 380/60/8 Needs tweaking of course.
 ** Again, you are trying to push more PzIII than
 Shermans/T34 That is wrong.

To Short-barraled StuGs: Believe me, you don't want that. Stubby-Stugs are like Pz3"N". It would interfere too much. Just go instant StuG3"G", most produced one + other versions where used mostly before Operation Barbarossa.
 ** Plenty of Short StuGs were used early on.
 That way, Ryousan won't have to fear early
 Stu3Gs eating Shermans (They can't)
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 03:01:50 AM

About the spam:
Why shouldn't there be as much Pz3 on the field as Shermans or T-34? Come on, it's a game, not real WW2.
 ** Still, try to be as faithful as possible.
 More PzIII than Sherman equals no room for
 StuGIII. If PzIII can win 1-on-1 against Sherman
 AND are more numerous. You're asking to start
 game with Tiger and auto-win right away.

 Realistic CoH: N44. Not EF. Pz3 should be as spammable/not spammable as Sherm and T-34.
StuG3 shouldn't be "spammed" in my opinion. They are tankdestroyers, not MTBs. Hide them when in defense, lock infantry behind when assaulting.
 ** No. Spamming PzIII should be suicidal
 unless you can win early. StuGIII should be
 as spammable as Sherman/T34. 3-to-1 ratio.
 Deal with it. (WAY more StuG built in war than Pz3)

About the costs: I would settle with 350/380mp 50fuel 7pop. Because it's worse then Sherm75 and needs upgrading, which costs again ammo. Also, it can't be spammed all around early, because Brit-penalty.
 - The problem is you are asking for PzIII to
 be 1/2 the price AND still win 1-on-1 against
 a tank that costs twice the cost. Think about it.
 - Oh, of course. Costs of upgrades need to
 be factored in. I *DO* want PzIII+Upgrade+
 Tungsten to be MORE expensive than Making
 Sherman/T34 spam (Inneficient)

Again, it depends on the player how many Pz3 will be on the battlefield. If he wants to build a spam, let it be. SU makes SU-85 and US M10 eh M36... A tankdestroyer will in most cases win against a tank. 
 ** Oh, of course. If he wants to make spam,
 let it be. But it shouldn't be an auto-win strategy.
 ** Ryousan doesn't want PzIII to be vulnerable
 to AT, though.

About short-barraled-Stug: Again, I have to repeat myself: Short-barrel makes no sense, since when you get them, at the same time you could make Pz3"N". Please, let the Pz3 have at least something usefull at all. 
You could make them have StuK40 L/43. Like L/42 and L/60. However, that would be a little bit too similar to Pz3. I would rather not again spend endless muni in tanks to make them equal to allied ones. 
 ** As you can see, I am looking for every way
 in which to put more StugIII than PzIII
 Ryousan doesn't want StuGIII to auto-rape
 Shermans as soon as they come out and I THINK
 HE IS RIGHT! - Solution : Require StuGIII to
 need an upgrade to be deadly (aka : Short gun
 StuGIII). Of course, we can also make them
 come later (aka : Panthers-era) But I want them
 weaker and more numerous (Like StuG4 with
 special abilities)

 I think the magic keyword here is veterancy.
With the cloak-ability they are also much more efficient in a defending position than attacking, therefore I don't see any problems with StuG3 being overpowered.
 ** Exacly
 ** I was thinking weak Marder with good armor.

If T-34 is a "shock" to Pz3, let us the little fun to "counter-shock" them. 
 ** You can't Because you already have had
 your 'Shock' in bringing out the PzIII early.
 Actually, I am not phrasing this right. What I am
 saying is, T34/76 coming out should hurt/scare
 early PzIII (L42).
 
  What you are saying is further PzIII upgrades
 correct that problem. (At an inneficient cost)
 And I agree. As long as StuGIII wins out in the end.
 
 I think you love PzIII too much and I love
 StuGIII too much

 We should CHAT, man. IM.
 We might understand each other more.
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 03:07:32 AM

However, small detail. If PzIIIL60
 is MBT, it can't win against them 1-on-1 AND
 be more numerous AND be cheaper

Pz3L60 isn't a "generalist". Therefore you can't really compare prices. Second, it costs about 50-75 muni to upgrade to L60. Then you even need tungsten, which isn't cheap. 
However, it's a matter of balancing. We shouldn't think about that. 

 ** Ahh thank you. Yea, the Pz3L60 isn't an
 UPgrade of the Pz3L42 as much as a SIDE-GRADE.
 Just like the Pz3L24 isn't an UP-GRADE.
 Skirts and +frontal armor is an UP-GRADE.
 ** yea. Need L60/L24 upgrade BEFORE can use
 Tungsten. Do you think should have an unlock
 before they can use Tungsten?

 Am thinking PzIII should have similar cost to
 Sherman/T34 if they can win againt them 1-on-1.
 - We should chat/IM
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 03:23:38 AM
 Email to... forgot his name :
 Nubrannosaurus

 The debate is raging. You should keep up
 - Also, I had this idea of the Pz2 (in-game) and
 Wespe (in-game) could be a conversion(as well
 as buildable from scratch).
 Priest is a Sherman (8pop) to Priest (12pop).
 They were not modified on the go, though.
 Pz2 is (4) pop then Wespe could be 6 pop,
 and be a 3 shot priest (instead of 6 shots).
 
 There would be a cap on them. Perhaps 2 or 3?
 Perhaps a doctrine ability could make this +1
 shot and +1 wespe?

 What do you think?
 It fits well in the PzIII to StuGIII model idea.

 Aouch and Ryouchan seem to want to make
 PzIII cheaper, earlier, not vulnerable to AT,
 more numerous, yet able to fight against T34/
 Sherman 1-on-1 and while StuGIII being
 present, this being in a secondary role,
 when they had a 3-to-1 ratio in the war endgame.

 I don't see why PzIII should be easier to spam
 than Sherman/T34. Thoughts?

[Ryousan]

- Ryousan wants no StuG3, and PanzerIII with Panther stats, no BergerPanzer, no conversions. Nothing new,
 and original. Except making the Panzer3 into a tank that
 fought till 1945 and was a match for opposition
 = Wehr 1.5 So OstHeer could be original in being a
 Faction with no salvage (Like 4 other factions, instead
 of 1). Might as well get rid of Shermans/T34s and give
 T70/Greyhounds Panther stats.

 Let's not worry about history, he said.
 Guess that means we can add the Japanese to the
 OstHeer

Allllright... Does anybody actually read something I write? I just said that the PzII/StugIII switch need some tweaks, not the whole thing sucks . By Christ sake, I was one of the people who said that a good Tank Destroyer was needed, some said Nashorn, some said StugIII I AGREED IN THOSE!!!!

About the Bergepz, I complained about it, because when anoyone proposed that the Ostheer could salvage vehicles, everybody complained about it. If you think it can work be guest. Just dont like the idea of making it Unit specific, if thats the case make it a doctrine unit and everybody is happy!
 
About Historical Accuracy, I read and Im not unreasonable, and hell I dont want to see Land Raiders and Baneblade tanks in CoH but also I dont want see the Ostheer trying to defeat Shermans and T-34s with flintlock muskets  and charging MG-Nests with Hussars!!!! 

Perhaps I fail to see what Loup was proposing, but when he said a PzIII with stuart stats...its kinda like wanting to defeat actual MBTs with AT Halftracks. What happens when a Pershing, IS-2 or a Comet appears by then?

- Er. No. *I* agree that PzIIIL42 should lose 1on1 vs
 Sherman75. Ryousan wants PzIIIL42 to WIN against
 Sherman75

 I Agree that PzIII isnt a good choice on 1-1 but is really necessary to make it suck so badly? Why not using StugIV stats for the Pz/StugIII? Stugs are still beaten by T-34/Shermans still can take enough punishment to be
considered efficient by themselves. I mean superior to the Stuart and the Puma, yet inferior to the Panzer IV: thats why I think Stug IV is better analogy.

Dont know about stats, but I read that PzIII could take on Shermans and Crusader Tanks (Historical Fact)

Loup says I propose to eliminate all the uniqueness out of the Ostheer. Nope, I just pointed out what aspects of his proposal need some tweaking.

[Loupblanc]

 @Ryousan :
 I do read what you write
 
 I wish someone *Blackbishop?* Wrote for me. Lol.
 I could just rant to him and he'd write what I mean in
 2-3 sentences, easy!

 @Ryousan :
 Could take on 1942 era Shermans perhaps but
 those in Normandie were different. COH one is M4A3
 (Firefly is M2). The PanzerIIIL60 is more of a specialist
 unit. It's no longer a generalist MBT.
 
 I'm trying to make things historical, yet balanced.
 What happens when IS2/Pershing/Comet comes out?
 ... You make StuGIII.

 I don't want PanzerIII to be equal to PanzerIV.
 I don't want solution to be 'make tons of PanzerIII'
 (More than T34/Sherman)
 I want more StuGIII than PanzerIII
 I want PanzerIII to come earlier than StuGIII.
 I don't want StuGIII to be AWESOME. Between a
 StuGIV and a Weak MarderIII (PanzerIII convertion too!)
 (The Marder is)

 * Isn't the Nashorn a Marder4?
Surviving Panzer IV variants - A PDF file presenting the Panzer IV variants (Jagdpanzer IV, Hummel, Nashorn, Brummbär, StuG IV, Flakpanzer tanks and prototypes based on Pz IV) still existing in the world
 
 Yup. Nashorn is Marder4
 No problem with that. I'd want it to be doctrine-Tiger
 Level, though (Like Flak88 is Tiger of Wehr/Def)

 
Post Merge: September 13, 2010, 06:59:29 AM
Dont know about stats, but I read that PzIII could take on Shermans and Crusader Tanks (Historical Fact)
(In 1942, in the African Desert)
(Cromwell is better than Cruiser)
(There are many different types of Cruiser tanks)
(Original cruiser had a 2pounder gun - AHAHAHAHA)
(PanzerIIIL60 is a TD not a MBT)
(Like a shitty Panther)

Loup says I propose to eliminate all the uniqueness out of the Ostheer. Nope, I just pointed out what aspects of his proposal need some tweaking.
 - Of COURSE it needs tweaking. I'm just throwing ideas.
 I'm finding an idea I like more and more. Want to mix
 history, realism into good play balance dynamics while
 doing something different than Wehr 1.5

 You guys mostly propose to make the Panzer III into a
 Panzer IV and keep forgetting the StuG III. Thus your
 ideas keep looking like : Let's make the Panzer III viable
 against all opponents on equal footing against ally medium
 MBT.

 The StuG? It's 340/50 fuel. I was thinking 380/60.
 Maybe 6 pop maybe 8 pop. Aouch says 7 pop.
 I don't want it to be a good spammable choice.
 Especially not more than T34/Sherman. And meeting
 the T34 should be a nasty encounter to an un-upgraded
 PanzerIII.

[Ryousan]

I don't want PanzerIII to be equal to PanzerIV.
 I don't want solution to be 'make tons of PanzerIII'
 (More than T34/Sherman)
 I want more StuGIII than PanzerIII
 I want PanzerIII to come earlier than StuGIII.
 I don't want StuGIII to be AWESOME. Between a
 StuGIV and a Weak MarderIII (PanzerIII convertion too!)
 (The Marder is)

Loup I agree in all of these.

*Abou putting the PzIII in the same level than the PzIV: I never wanted an Uber-PzIII Just dont want want an Unter-PzIII that cannot take care of anything by its own.

*About the "PzIII Spam": never really crossed my mind, though I liked the Idea of a Panzer Group Zeal.

*About more StugsIII than PzIIIs: can be applied with the proper mechanics. Upgrading needs twaking, but can work . Indeed I came out with some ideas if the BergepanzerIII was doctrine specific:

-Can upgrade your Panzer IIIs to Stug III(even when they are "still alive") for free.

-Can Salvage destroyed PzIII and upgrade them to Stug.

-Can Salvage StugIII wreaks and make them operational again.

*About the PzIII coming out earlier than the Stug: nothing against it. I envisioned the PzIII coming out around the same time the Stug IV comes out, and the Stug coming out around the same time the PzIV is coming out, for example. Depends on the Tech Tree that the Ostheer is getting.

*About the StugIII being COOL but NOT AWESOME: Mmmmm...Still beliving that the OH needs something awesome to finish off the game or to defend it self against Uber-Tanks. Something that is not doctrine specific. I wanted something like a:

-Panzer IV Battle Group.

-A Tiger call In.

-A Stug III Battlegroup.

Just my thoughts.       

[Blackbishop]

How many Pz. III will you need to gift the game to your opponent?

Panzer III should be the "spear" tank until shermans/T-34, it would erase T70, T90, SU-85(unsupported or ambushed, because if he see you first...), Stags, M8, T17 or Halftracks, light and nasty not-so-early units, until Sherman/T34 comes, it could take the job specially if has vet, but if you see these tanks and you hestiate to make the decision of the Stug upgrade, they are warning you, of course the messages are different from user to user but could be from:

"Hey i have better tanks you could try to stop me if you like we already have a party here, meanwhile I'll keep your fuel, ammo and victory points if you dont mind "

to

"We'll have a hell of a party at your base "

or

"Ready for a base rape "

PIII L60 could work at some level but it will serve you as transition to Stug3 or whatever 2nd. armor choice that will be added, considering that are 1-1 with shermans, and you need two to defeat a sherman76 or t34/76. You can delay him, but don't expect to win the war with just PzIII(unless vs Amis with SWC start-i'm just made up that we cannot measure that yet ).

PIII L42 will work as an infantry support tank. Nothing more to add .

The only thing that bothers me is how the british will kill it? There's such tactic as "fast cromwell"?

I forgot to say but for now we can forgot about the bergepanther/bergepanzer .

That's my humble opinion.

[Cozmin95]

So let me get this right, the Panzer III will act as a main tank until the Sherman/T-34 come, and once they come you can upgrade it to the Stug III to face them?But how exactly do you upgrade them?Globally or each unit?So if it's globally it means you can't built the Panzer III after you make the upgrade, or if it's per unit that means you have to build a Panzer III each time you want a Stug III?Or the Stug III will also be buildable but it's cheaper/faster/better if you upgrade it from the Panzer III?Also what about the Luchs?Is it gonna stay untouched or another conversion unit?Wespe buildable/call-in(doctrine)/upgrade from another unit?

My idea if it's not already like this: Keep the Panzer III as a buildable unit, and make the Stug III upgrade globally, cost with fuel, but in this way; once you research the Stug III you can convert it on field from your Panzer III or you can build it alone from the factory!

[Aouch]

My idea if it's not already like thise: Keep the Panzer III as a buildable unit, and make the Stug III upgrade globally, cost with fuel, but in this way; once you research the Stug III you can convert it on field from your Panzer III or you can build it alone from the factory!

That's exactly the same idea Loup and I had. 

@ blackbishop: Shame we won't see Bergepanzer. I'm curious why the DEVs decided to not have it?
It's a whole different unit than the Bergetiger. Bergetiger is for salvaging wrecks and repairing vehicles behind the frontline, because it's too slow to keep up with advancing forces, whereas a Bergepanzer III's main purpose is to repair tanks on the frontline. It's as fast as Pz III and StuG III. Plus it doesn't have Tiger's armor. However, it has also a second function: Converting Pz3 into Stug3. Destroyed Pz3 and functional Pz3, IMO. Additionally it could also do something similiar to Pz2.

Therefore it serves a new concept, something which doesn't exist in CoH till now.
However, I don't decide that, as always.

[Blackbishop]

@Aouch

You wait and see . Perhaps they surprise you.

[Loupblanc]

 Panzer II Ausf. L (PzKpfw IIL) "Luchs"


Panzer II Ausf.L in the Musée des Blindés, Saumur.
A light reconnaissance tank, the Ausf. L was the only Panzer II design with the overlapping road wheels to enter series production, with 100 being built from September 1943 to January 1944 in addition to conversion of the four Ausf. M tanks. Originally given the experimental designation VK1303, it was adopted under the alternate name Panzerspähwagen II and given the popular name Luchs (Lynx). The Lynx was larger than the Ausf. G in most dimensions (length 4.63 m; height 2.21 m; width 2.48 m). It was equipped with a six speed transmission (plus reverse), and could reach a speed of 60 km/h with a range of 290 km. The FuG12 and FuG Spr a radios were installed, while 330 rounds of 20 mm and 2,250 rounds of 7.92 mm ammunition were carried. Total vehicle weight was 13 tons.

 - Ok, I had no idea what a 'Luchs' Pz2 was. It's a Lynx.
 Basically a 'deluxe' Pz2, from what I can gather.
 
 ** Yup, pretty much everything that's been said.
 
 * BlackBishop : Aouch wants a single PzIIIL60 to win
 against a Sherman76/T34-85 if it uses Tungsten ammo.

 * You mistook PzIIIL42 for PzIIIL24 (Anti infantry)
 
 * I want PzIIIL24 and PzIIIL60 to be more of a sidegrade.
 for PzIIIL42. Not an 'UP-Grade'. PzIII shouldn't have a
 top-mounted machine-gun to keep to the 'Inferior to a
 PanzerIV idea'.
 * PzIIIL24 can use tungsten ammo (Twice the price,
 however?).

 * It's Wreck, not Wreak
 
 * I want StuG and Wespe to be available from
 - Buildable from scratch - at HQ/Factory.
 - Convertable from existing PzIII/PzII
 - Performed automatically from salvage (Needs an
 unlock). Perhaps StuG/Wespe can be same upgrade?
 
 *** I was thinking of something. We were discussing
 'Global' upgrades. Why not do it soviet style? Pay a big
 price at home (Like Sherman76 upgrade) and then the
 upgrade/convertions can be done for free? (Just an
 idea). Not that I think it should be done per se, but
 just wanted to remind the mechanics)(Same coding)

 *** If PanzerIII still buildable, should be as a PzIIIL42
 (That way, you still need to pay for upgrades)(Like PE
 PzIV AI). I'm fine with PzIII being buildable, though.
 
 *** Oh, I'm fine with StuGIII being able to kill uber
 tanks, just that it must adopt defensive posture for
 it. (Like a Wehr Pak40/Marder3). I don't want it to
 be a firefly, for example.

Post Merge: September 14, 2010, 12:23:11 AM

@Aouch

You wait and see . Perhaps they surprise you.

 - Tell us what they got planned?

 ** Eh, I've been playing BF2/FH2 and there's a 1940 map
 where it's invasion of France (CounterAttack it's called).
 And the Germans have a StuGIIIB (Short barrel).

 I want to see a short barrel StuGIII in-game!
 

[Cozmin95]

I personally don't think the Stug III is any good with the short barrel to destroy enemy tanks, if i am right i believe the short barrel is mostly used anti infantry/light vehicles since it has a higher velocity and such but i a long barrel version would be a lot better to tackle heavier armor!

Any of these models would be great:
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.F.htm [nofollow]
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.F8.htm [nofollow]
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.G.htm [nofollow]
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.Gs.htm [nofollow]
http://ww2drawings.jexiste.fr/Files/1-Vehicles/Axis/1-Germany/05-Sturmpanzers/StuG3/StuG3-Ausf.G%28US%29.htm [nofollow]

[Akalonor]

I think the Ostheer should use a captured Char B-1 , it was captured in large numbers in france and many were sent to the Eastern front , many were also converted to flamethrower tanks with enough fluid for 200 fires

*In game it would be less efficient than normal Tanks like the Panzer 4

*but still provide an infantry support role.

*Possibly be doctrine specific

yes theres no model but many other suggestions dont have a proper model.

[Paciat]

I think the Ostheer should use a captured Char B-1 , it was captured in large numbers in france and many were sent to the Eastern front

Too hard to make a multigun Tank model. Same with M-3 Lee, T-28 and T-35.

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

I think upgrades should look like this:
Basic PzIII (L42) buildable. For unlocking upgrades, you have to do a research in a basebuilding. Then you can upgrade to L60 and L24, the upgrade to StugIII may be done near the tank factory, because such a big upgrade anywhere on the field seems unrealistic to me. So drive your PanzerIII, which you wish to upgrade, back to your base and let it be upgunned (acts ingame like reinforce function, where infantry has to be near building) or like already said something like doctrinal bergepzIII could do this on the field.

I think Wespe should be buildable seperately from pzII, because we already got the upgrade thing with pzIII. Maybe it could be doctrinal, but i am also fine with a buildable wespe.

Back to StugIII: I'd prefer it to have a misc of cromwell and stuart armour, and slightly better gun than StugIV, but not as good as Marders. I like the idea with camo and first shot bonus.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Any upgrade of a Pz III on the field into a StuG III is unrealistic
It is a bite more complicated to transfer a "Panzer III Chassis" into a Sturmgeschütz III.

About the StuG III in general:
When StuG was created the main battle operation of this tank was the infantry support with heavy fire BUT from the start von Manstein demand that StuG III could deal with enemy armour so the casemate was construct a bit bigger to carry a bigger gun when needed. Russians heavy tanks and the number of their tanks were the reason that the  inconsiderable and small StuG get more and more a tank hunter, a role von Manstein and the StuG-commanders doesent liked.

So: Out of my view gun upgrades for a tank III are good and fine BUT transferring a PzIII into a StuG III on the battlefield isnt a good idea.

[Max 'DonXavi' von B.]

Any upgrade of a Pz III on the field into a StuG III is unrealistic
It is a bite more complicated to transfer a "Panzer III Chassis" into a Sturmgeschütz III.

I know, I was only thinking about the best way to realise this idea  . Like "So, dear comerades, let's just transfer this to a Stug, i am tired of turning the turret"...

So only the two varaints of pzIII remain, one for at role and the other, similar to PEs panzer IV stubby (same gun), for ai duties. Should both be of same cost? Maybe 50 ammo?