For the future patch that balances other factions.

[GodlikeDennis]

Paciat made some good points. I'll also point out some things. 5 AT halfs would easily beat a stuart but that's not important because you would NEVER get 5 of them. 1-2 is optimum and are very effective at killing enemy vehicles. The survivability of vehicles at higher levels of play comes from the player kiting, and with treadbreak you can negate this and destroy it VERY easily.

Paciat mentioned it as a quick counter to churchill which was only an example of countering a fast vehicle/tank. Because it is so cheap it is easily produced in an emergency. It also fits into any build order involving T4 nicely for this reason. The reason why it isn't so good against the stuart is that the stuart has MASSIVE modifiers against halftrack armour (it 2 hits mortar halftracks). This factor is probably the only thing that saves it from being a completely useless unit. Stuarts are hard countered by shreks which can 2 hit it back (with lucky crits) and have excellent accuracy against it's armour type.

AT halfs are also very accurate against infantry. Even without focus fire they can kill weapon crew quite quickly. With it on, they are death to all low man squads.

There are loads of factors that make this an excellent unit. It just needs to be used in conjuntion with other units and not slug it out with an enemy. If you need to though, you can treadbreak and kill him by outranging him, though this is rather slow.

[Strayker]

PE should tech up more than only building 2 tiers and 1 upgrade to win the game. Shrecks, x2 Marders/1 Marder and AT nades and PzIVs/Hotchkisses are counters to Stuarts. How many more do you need?

I was not saying that i would build only those two tiers and then build a single Marder and its an instant win...or did i?? I was saying that i would rather build a single Marder III than 5xAT HTs (5 is just a comparison of price to a single Marder, it doesnt mean i would build that many) to counter early armored threat...that means a Marder and some TB squads. Later in game youll need to build those other two tiers as well...thats true, but i dont need them at start.

And i dont need more than 2 Marders and/or some TB squads to deal with enemy armor...no AT HTs needed.

This factor is probably the only thing that saves it from being a completely useless unit.

This is what i was talking about GodlikeDennis...someone finds one unit good, the other guy thinks its a rubbish. Thats how it goes and differs gameplay of different people. Thats why COH is so much fun, because all of us have unique play style. That said i find Stuart very useful in early game, to tackle enemy HTs as Paciat said and with its canister shot to counter groups of infantry.

Once more thanks for your posts...

[GodlikeDennis]

Sure we can put it down to personal opinion on the unit but it's ridiculous to say it needs a buff. It is a very useful unit (personally I much prefer one of these to a single marder) and to say otherwise simply means you aren't using it that well.

In your stuart example you are using it for exactly it's intended purpose (which only works against PE) therefore it's ok at the job but only has a very limited niche to work in. Despite it's massive damage to halftracks it's still worse against PE than an M8 due to it's awful armour type that leaves it incredibly vulnerable to shreks. Using an AT half in conjunction with a shrek squad/marder you have an almost guaranteed kill on the enemy vehicle, even against good players. As I stated before, his mobility is the thing keeping him alive and without it you can turn him into scrap.

EDIT: The AT halftrack is also extremely effective against kangs in their current state. Their mobility is what makes them deadly, which is why I actually agree with Chancellor in that the list of nerfs were not enough. They also need a speed nerf or a reduction in crush capability.

[Strayker]

Sure we can put it down to personal opinion on the unit but it's ridiculous to say it needs a buff. It is a very useful unit (personally I much prefer one of these to a single marder) and to say otherwise simply means you aren't using it that well.

Its always based on personal opinion, from my point of view it needs a buff, from yours not and you even say its ridicilous...for that reason there are these "balance experts" on these forums which devs actually listen. Neighter i nor you are one of them, that means this whole discussion is pointless in some point, but im glad to hear some advices/suggestions from you guys.

In your stuart example you are using it for exactly it's intended purpose (which only works against PE) therefore it's ok at the job but only has a very limited niche to work in. Despite it's massive damage to halftracks it's still worse against PE than an M8 due to it's awful armour type that leaves it incredibly vulnerable to shreks. Using an AT half in conjunction with a shrek squad/marder you have an almost guaranteed kill on the enemy vehicle, even against good players. As I stated before, his mobility is the thing keeping him alive and without it you can turn him into scrap.

This is another example of personal opinion (now yours precisely)...i think the Stuart is ok as it is and proves to be valuable addition to Brits at early stages (not just against PE, but against WH as well). As you said his mobility is keeping him alive...but thats all you need, fast tank with ability to hunt down HTs and infantry.

The AT halftrack is also extremely effective against kangs in their current state. Their mobility is what makes them deadly, which is why I actually agree with Chancellor in that the list of nerfs were not enough. They also need a speed nerf or a reduction in crush capability.

In this one ill agree with you and Chancellor...kangaroo is way OP at the moment...it seriously needs some changes.

[Chancellor]

Honestly IMO if the nerfs listed were all there is to the formula, I agree with Dennis that they are not enough.  Yes, their price has increased, but only making them effectively 180 manpower more expensive (the ideal number of kangaroos is 3 at a time, so 60 added manpower times 3 is 180), and 100 hp less each.

The rest of the nerfs are useless, because again, fuel is not a problem for Brits, 45x3 is only 135 fuel per wave; if the Brit bus humped the high fuels with his multiple leech trucks it wouldn't take a long time at all to regain the lost fuel.

Also the slightly increased build time is absolutely useless and an excuse of a nerf.  Any player that doesn't know how to continue making kangaroos while his 3 active ones are already in combat and then gets caught with his pants down after his 3 active kangaroos die deserves to lose.  Most of the time after you kill 1 wave of kangaroos, another set of 3 are already waiting for his infantry near his base.

Of course, as the devs stated, its not up to us, its up to the GR folks.  If the high level players (ranked +15 automatch) such as kot, DevM, CharlesDarwin, Tomitoma, etc really did indeed come up with this as the nerf list, I will surely give the benefit of the doubt, but as of right now I am doubting.

PS: BTW I've played Dennis before, he's definitely not a noob; this guy knows his game.

[Seeme]

Good thing I dont have ToV, so I wont be whineing about my troops changing.

[Zerstörer]

To be honest I originally thought the nerfs to the Roo aren't enough....but like you said...the experts know best.

On the other hand, the Roo is replacing the Cromwell which is an extremely useful unit so it must be able to compete with that as a choice.
Most importantly, for 300mp/45FU you're still only getting a transport which needs to have troops in it to do something....all in all the changes only really reduce the spamability of the unit to perhaps more acceptable levels...

[GodlikeDennis]

I'm just worried about the crush as well as the abilities from inside remaining. But of course we'll see soon enough. It's not like you can't change it again if it doesn't do enough.

I've played TOMITOMA before and he strafe spams like a mother****.

[Paciat]

I'm just worried about the crush as well as the abilities from inside remaining. But of course we'll see soon enough. It's not like you can't change it again if it doesn't do enough.

+1
Well said.

But I would speed instead of crush. UK has the worst offroad mobility ingame. At least let them crush those that are dumb enough to stay on roads when this 30ton thing.

[AdmV0rl0n]

OK so I've heard somewhere that future EF patches will attempt to balance the other factions until Relic does so themselves.

Currently the biggest IMBA unit in CoH is the Kangaroo; it is almost an instant-win unit.  If EF is really going to attempt to balance the other factions, here is my 2 cents.

1) Forget about a fuel cost increase.  Often times what limits the British player is manpower; not fuel or munitions, since they can leech off the resource points like effective parasites.  In my opinion, increasing the fuel and calling it part of the nerf is not effective.  Manpower is the way to go.

2) Remove infantry crush and/or lower speed.  Given the speeds of these things, two well microed empty kangaroos can still crush whole squads or at the very least force them to retreat.

3) Causing more casualties to passengers when the kangaroo dies is not a good nerf either, because the British player can simply exit the kangaroo before it dies.

4) In regards to the possible nerf of vulnerability to flamethrowers or sniper fire: What about Panzer Elite, who have no such tools?  Normal rifle fire should be also able to deal damage to passengers to be fair to PE.

5) In regards to the button ability unavailable inside Kangaroo nerf, a good British player can simply drive next to the victim tank, drop off the Bren-Tommy squad, and continue to kill it with the PIAT sappers that are still inside the kangaroo.  Not an effective nerf in my opinion.  Again, perhaps a kangaroo speed decrease would help.

ALTERNATIVE) Replace it altogether with another British tank like the Comet or something.  The British should support their tanks with vulnerable infantry just like everyone else.  I simply don't believe the kangaroo carrier even fits in CoH.

Well, on checking 1.20 and 1.21 - It os on note that not only were Kangeroos nerfed, but a host of brit things were too.

I agree the kangeroo was potent. However, people always bad calc on kangeroo. The low cost of it was fine, because to load up a kangeroo with LT (250/15) sappers (320/75) and bren squad (450/whatever) costs a bloody fortune. And thus they only come in as a desperate stop early midgame, or in bulk late game. They could have been limited to one officer and one squad - or similar.

The kangeroo is being unfairly amended. If the brits are to stay as they are, then you need to accept the late game mobility and hitting power they provide OR provide some alternatives.

In a global sense, the brits are unbalanced. They cost too much in too many places, and are only occasionally viable in game.

All that being said. The change log only basically shows a long lists of nerfs to the brits, and no real changes to amend the lack of imbalance with them.

People used Kangeroos mainly because they have so very few actual options, especially late game.

(For the record, I play and raid with Kangeroos, and I can accept the change as its clear there was an element of OP, but seriously, the brits needed some changes elsewhere in terms of buffs to rebalance them.)

[GodlikeDennis]

This thread should be locked, seeing as the patch is out and it's no longer relevant.

Brits were buffed in more subtle ways, like the nerf to piospam. Brits are already OP T1 when piospam is not involved therefore they don't need a buff. And it's not like kangs were slightly OP. They were the single most OP thing in the game by a long shot.

[AbhMkh]

I agree with paciat completely ..

The kangaroo did not require tht nerfing

besides wht abt the bren section , tht bloody thing is totally unfair , how the hell do you expect the brits to handle early game  PE HTs , PE gets HT and i have a recon and a bren section , and probably a bren carrier too , with whom are they going to fight with the PE infantry or PE Ht's , with the bren nerf its totally unfair.

[GodlikeDennis]

Paciat agrees that the Kang deserved the nerf. He also suggested we nerf it's speed as well.

There's very little actual difference in the brit early game. Just learn to use the units how they were originally intended without abusing bugs/imbalances.

END THIS THREAD!

[AbhMkh]

I think he meant  "amended incorrectly "not unfairly amended , I'm sorry , if take English literally 

[BasileusHotshot]

I knew you guys were gonna attempt balancing the main game as well, in your next patch, but I hardly expected so many changes 

Sooo, here we go (Will only comment on things that I disagree with): 

1- Not sure about adding both a delay and smoke to the SR. Maybe either of them would be good (I prefer the delay, not the smoke BTW) but both? I guess I'll have to strafe the Hell outta someone's ass to check it. So be it 
2- Decreased cost of M26 and Tiger?!? I've playing the game since day 1 and noone ever complained about it. Why mess with things that aren't broken in the first place...? Same goes for the TD cost decrease, Engi suppression and Croc (Which, if memory serves me correctly, receives benefits from its upgrade)
3- 2.301 Pak was OK. Why not revert to it instead? 3 Camoed shots BUT only the first gets the bonuses. Noone was complaining about the Pak back then, so why not go for something proven?
4- Pioneer changes break the basic formula of the game and the consistency of the Wehr faction. I can understand why you did it, but I'd rather see it addressed through more "indirect" ways and defo not like that
5- Why mess with things that aren't broken in the first place, vol 2: LMG42 was obviously made like that on purpose and hardly anyone ever complained about that. Again what did you guys do there? Def bunkers: I’d agree with the change back in 2.301, but now it’s more of a not very-well-thought change: The new rifle vet has changed the meta-game immensely: Haven’t you guys watched any replays lately?
6- Marder: no, No, NO!!! The Marder is essentially PE’s AT gun! It’s not a tank God damn it and it cannot be used like one. It was always meant to work like that (An AT gun on wheels). I’d really like to have a word or two with the guys that gave you feedback about balancing >:<
7-Muni HT. Don’t disagree, but don’t agree either. Will have to test it first.
8- Luft: Although I never understood why they needed so much time to reinforce, it was obviously done on purpose and not particularly game-breaking. Again, was it THAT bad that you had to address it?
9- Goliaths: I guess the change also includes the Wehrmacht Goliath right? Also, since they’re detectable now, I think that Yurdle’s reduced price of 100 munis is better after the change
10- AC won’t detect snipers now. OK, I don’t agree, but I know that many people were complaining about it. BUT the SC will still be able to detect them I hope cos snipers are a pain for PE. If not, then I disagree.
11- ATHT focus-fire: Again, was it THAT bad that you had to address it?
12- Sniper moving accuracy: No. This makes the difference between players that are microing and players that aren’t. If someone bothers moving his sniper he should be rewarded in some way vs a guy that just sits back and takes shots don’t you think?
13- Medic health: What’s the exact number of the new health? Grenades: You mean they’re targeting ground instead of entity now?

Below are some of the things that I changed in my under-development balance patch and I consider important. Just in case you like any of these ideas, feel free to use them: J

1-   Stuart: reduced dmg modifier vs PE IHTs, ACs and Marders to 1.2. It currently has a modifier of 2 I think, acting as a WTF-pwn everything vehicle vs PE
2-   Little john penetrates a bit too often the “very-heavy class” vehicles don’t you think?
3-   I tried making dropping PE shrecks not turn into wehr shrecks. I failed, so I changed the PE shrecks’ stats to match the wehr ones, as I didn’t think that it was ok for brits and amis to be more effective than the creators of the weapon (In the case of PE ofc)
4-   I added a 0.9 instead of 1 dmg modifier of strafe vs soldier armor. I don’t mean to brag, but I believe it’s near-perfect. It causes casualties to PE early game, but upgrading to zeal and 4-man squads, actually makes a difference (Just like vet 2 for wehr) but unvetted PGs, still have worst stats than Grens, as it was intended in the first place!