The Jagdtiger issue

[cephalos]

So to sum up: you want to replace ordinary Blitz Tiger I ( who gets vet) with Tiger Ace ( who's faster, more powerful and has awesome looking but doesn't get vet)?

[GodlikeDennis]

@cephalos: yes

@Venoxxis:

CoH:O is a completely different game with different abilites. It doesn't enter the discussion. As for Blitz being popular, this might be true for low level games but higher level automatches see far fewer Blitz players, the vast majority favouring terror. Most Blitz games are played against the brits to make use of double shreked stormie squads to bust defenses.

Blitzkrieg is a terrible ability, the fire rate being offset by the lost accuracy. For 150 munitions I would rather buy 2 shreks in the lategame.

Manpower Blitz also sucks. 150 munitions for some instant manpower but a manpower drain is not a good deal in the long run.

Assault grenades are expensive and easily retreated from, wasting 50 munitions. The stun effect is a massive gimmick and it's disgraceful how Relic changed this ability.

StuHs are usually crap and only perfect hits do any real damage. Unless you have the time to micro every shot they suck.

Tell me, have you ever seen someone go Blitz in a tourney final?

Anyway, that's just my thoughts. This thread is on the Jagdtiger not Blitz.

[Venoxxis]

So to sum up: you want to replace ordinary Blitz Tiger I ( who gets vet) with Tiger Ace ( who's faster, more powerful and has awesome looking but doesn't get vet)?

No, please read the thread, replacing the Tiger by the tiger ace would indeed be a unfair reward. The Tiger Ace belongs to the terror doctrine. And it would make a fantastic reward for the kingtiger. Have a look at the Terror doctrine, it still displays the Tiger Ace Maybe you didnt know that, but in earlier days there was no kingtiger, there was only a tiger ace at the terror doctrine!

@Venoxxis:
[...]
Tell me, have you ever seen someone go Blitz in a tourney final?
[...]

Lets have a look at the mass. The mass has other priorities than pro gamers. Also newbies gotta be respected in polls like that, just like eastern front respects the new players, even those which got trouble fighting the easy AI. And that is the only right way.


Regards!

[Blackbishop]

@GodlikeDennis
I'm almost sure that will be done as Venoxis said... unless a miracle occurs.

King Tiger -> Tiger Ace
Jagdpanther -> Jagdtiger (not confirmed yet but an obvious choice).

That is, because unlike reward units, that you can choose to use or not, the Tiger Ace is intended to replace the normal Tiger. While I agree about BK doctrine and that no one would care if the normal tiger is replaced for the Tiger Ace with cost increased(i mean, they won't care for the normal tiger, not talking about the decision to not put it on Terror). Imo, in the future there won't be much incentive to go Blitz. Why would you go to Blitz if Terror has a better Tiger?

It's not about to just listen the masses, also is needed to check if it could fit and what repercussions will have, because as you said, many of them are noobs and if we listen completely to the masses... however, it's not like my opinion will make a difference, EF policy still applies and looks like the Ace will be the reward unit for the KT.

[Chancellor]

I vote for

Tiger Ace -> KT
Jagdtiger -> Jagdpanther

As long as the Tiger Ace is a one time call-in like the KT, blitz still has some appeal due to unlimited call-ins.

[Blackbishop]

Yup, will be one time call-in, like in the past .

[Analpirat]

Yup, will be one time call-in, like in the past .

But it wasn't.
At least I seem to recall that Pre-OF the Tiger Ace had a unit cap of 1 and a cost of 1000mp. But you were able to call it multiple times (If memory serves me right). One time call ins only appeared with OF and that was also when the Tiger Ace was replaced.
And that is why I'd suggest you abstain from the one time call in with little up front cost and "interest" over time, IIRC no one ever complained about the Tiger Ace's cost and "recallability" so I'd suggest you keep it that way.

Edit: I can't find anything to back that claim up so I guess I mistook that.

[Blackbishop]

Well, a friend of mine has a vCoH dvd, i could borrow it and install it if you want yo be sure, because honestly i don't remember either .

I guess is just one call-in unit because is stronger than normal tiger. I'll upload the screenshot later.

[Analpirat]

I have one too but I don't think I care that much to try it out
I know it's performance was roughly on par with a vet 3 Tiger, but given that you could (back then) have two Blitz Tigers the choice was often in favor of the latter.
So I don't know if the Tiger Ace is that powerful (any longer) that it needs to be single call-in but I guess it's better to begin with a underpowered unit rather than a overpowered one.

[Blackbishop]

Yeah, sounds like the Tiger Ace was able to be at the field one unit at any time, since the hard caps to heavier call-in tanks were put on OF.

[GodlikeDennis]

Yes, the Tiger ace was 1000mp and one on the field at a time but recallable. It also didn't have the black skin from the campaign I don't think, it actually had a dark grey/greenish skin. At the time Blitz Tigers were available at 2 at once which made it far more popular. As it stands, the only reason to go Blitz now will be the stormtroopers. Terror now has everything anyone could ever want.

As for the Jagdtiger, it also fits as a replacement for the jagdpanther, being slower but more powerful. This is fine but serious thought needs to be put into making Blitz an interesting choice when it is already underused compared to the other two doctrines. Terror is all round amazing and defensive has the best 1cp ability in the game in FTFL and also has advanced warning and registered arty, all excellent early powers. Blitz has stormtroopers, that's it.

[Venoxxis]

Yeah, sounds like the Tiger Ace was able to be at the field one unit at any time, since the hard caps to heavier call-in tanks were put on OF.

I still think the ace should be capped to one in the game. In general, calling it in should be just expensive as a kingtiger.
It should be just like a kingtiger, this way the blitz leaves less appeal as GodlikeDennis mentioned. The Ace should differ as much as possible from the blitz tiger.


Regards

[Chancellor]

For the Tiger Ace just make it strong, and make it a one time deal like the KT; that's it.

Don't forget to implement the black skin along with Schultz as the commander.

[Analpirat]

I vote for the vanilla Tiger Ace because I don't like the singe time call-in all that much. Given it's high cost I also don't think that there's such a problem with its recallability. Also, I think it is far more terrifying that such a powerful tank might make a return instead of just destroying it and be done for it. (It's still "only" a vet 3 Tiger, so it's not like its invincible)

OTOH I have to agree with GodlikeDennis that Blitz will have a real problem selling itself. Back then it was 2 Blitz Tigers vs 1 Terror Tiger, which didn't go so well. So I think returning the 2nd Blitz Tiger isn't an option. I also think that returning the Sturmtruppen squads that came with each called in tank isn't a solution either. Perhaps a reward unit for the StuH to see how that works out? Brummbär? (Is that even a legitimate proposition?)

[Blackbishop]

Imo will be unfair if the ace could be called more than once.