USSR OP vs Wehr

[Chancellor]

I think that this has been the impression for a while, but it was a slight advantage in the last patch so I didn't bring it up.  This patch however, I'm really starting to feel it.

I just 1v1ed (Wehr vs USSR) with a level 12 1v1 automatch ranked guy (he claimed he maxed out at level 14 1v1 at one point), and then we traded factions.  Both times the USSR user won hands down.

Its not just 1v1; Im feeling the heat in 2v2s too.  Its especially with the sniper teams and the katyshas; they are way too strong for their price.  Also I'm not sure if I read this correctly, but it seems the Commisar gives a whooping 10% bonus for every vet level. Stack that with the already strong individual vet bonuses the individual squads get, and you get a blob from hell.

Its also the same way with PE being OP against USSR, just to a much lesser extent.  USSR can still counter with the T70, but Wehr is just helpless atm.

I honestly thought 95% of USSR was fine in the last patch; all that was needed was to be changed from the last patch (1.232) was:

*Adding the recrew ability
*Nerfing the T90 suppression (the new changes from 1.30 are fine)
*Lower the crit chance of the sniper team spotter
*Changing some airborne armor back to infantry armor

*Finally, I would have suggested to just make the USSR sniper like the normal snipers.  (1 man, can camo)  Its just not fair that you work so hard to countersnipe (you have to shoot the right guy too, or else you will get instantly counter-sniped) and he just retreats and comes back.  Also the survivability of 2 men is insane.  However, people will bitch and moan about it not being special or authentic, so w/e...

If anyone is interested in seeing the 1v1 replays for balance reference, here they are.

And please, if you compstomp all the time, refrain from making any comments in this thread; its not valid.  I'm tired of arguing with noobs who play low level games all the time, and post the most in the balance forums.  It doesn't take skill to talk about balance.  Any retard with a keyboard can do that.  Peace out.

[IJoe]

Yeah, I'll be the first to bitch that sniper suggestion. Just deal with it as it is, man!
The Devs even moved cloak to vet 1, and smoke to vet 3!
What more do you want? Make them shoot real shitty (they must be dumb, after all, right?)?
Besides, looking through the changelog, 1.3 has made some major nerfs on soviets, trading it all for recrewing. So just stop whining, take a little rest before playing some more games, and see that all your problems are due to tiring out.
BTW, I noticed some severe problems with AI (any faction), so your losses in 2x2 could bear some mark of that (if you pared with AI, - sorry didn't watch your replays yet, so I'm just guessing here).

[Dot.Shadow]

I don't think anything will make the devs touch the 2 man sniper squad. And I'm glad they won't because they add something interesting to the game. A bland copy paste of the American/Wehrmacht sniper would just be stupid.

Also, nerfing the T90s suppression would make it suppress absolutely nothing, as well as never actually hitting anything.

In my opinion the PE was way more OP against Soviets than Soviets ever were against the Wehr, and I know a lot of my friends agree. The fact that Soviets could be OP against Wehr now I will not deny, I still need to play the game more to comment on that.

[Venoxxis]

I gotta agree with some points of chancellor in here. 10% bunus from the commando may be a bit too much indeed.

I was always thinking about the sniper teams and about a way to balance them. But yet, i didnt come up to a well suited solution. Atm they are allrounders from hell.
The fact with them being 2 man is a interesting mechanic, but the fact that this will may never get balanced should be considered as well. Also, these guys got way to powerfull abilities. I mean i love to play with them, especially with these abilities, since that is not compareable to the snipers of the other factions. They are simply completely on another powerlevel and being only 40mp more expensive. Also the Art. barrage doesnt make sense comparing the snipers with eachother. Why should a sniper have the ability to destroy emplacements? Actually you can do it with only one shot if im not mistaken here. The cooldown is a joke.


Cancellors post is entitled. Dont come up again with "stop whining" again here. First of all think neutral about what he said. And nothing else.


best regards

[Paciat]

The Devs even moved cloak to vet 1, and smoke to vet 3!
Besides, looking through the changelog, 1.3 has made some major nerfs on soviets, trading it all for recrewing. So just stop whining, take a little rest before playing some more games, and see that all your problems are due to tiring out.

I never understood why Sharpshooters dont have snipers armor. Their survivability can be lowered by lowering HP but snipers should be countered by SMGs and light vechicles - sniper armor is weak vs those.

The Major 10% vet bonus is IMO too strong.

DP-28 and PPSh are also too strong and expensive. Getting a global upgrade and then pay for all youre equipment costs way too much ammo. RB Strelky are now somekind of late game elite striking force.
I understand that PPSh spamming was a problem so how about making PPSh more expensive (60-75ammo) while DP-28 cheaper but not as powerfull (not more powerfull!) as BARs (20-30ammo).

BTW, I noticed some severe problems with AI (any faction)

Same here.

[IJoe]

I gotta agree with some points of chancellor in here. 10% bunus from the commando may be a bit too much indeed.

I was always thinking about the sniper teams and about a way to balance them. But yet, i didnt come up to a well suited solution. Atm they are allrounders from hell.
The fact with them being 2 man is a interesting mechanic, but the fact that this will may never get balanced should be considered as well. Also, these guys got way to powerfull abilities. I mean i love to play with them, especially with these abilities, since that is not compareable to the snipers of the other factions. They are simply completely on another powerlevel and being only 40mp more expensive. Also the Art. barrage doesnt make sense comparing the snipers with eachother. Why should a sniper have the ability to destroy emplacements? Actually you can do it with only one shot if im not mistaken here. The cooldown is a joke.


Cancellors post is entitled. Dont come up again with "stop whining" again here. First of all think neutral about what he said. And nothing else.


best regards

OK, I'll think neutral:
CC bonus used to be 15% per vet;
sharpshooters used to have cloak right away (not at vet 1, like now);
artillery barrage costs munitions 125 (it's equal to wehr's defensive arty) per personal unit upgrade;
things changed to worse for the sovs in most, but recrewing, yet now you people are saying, they are OP, and beforehand, they were somehow alright.
I'm getting confused here...

BTW, I'm not some purely soviet fanboy (I actually never liked communists), I often play as wehr as well. Yet, I don't see that hell of a change, you're talking 'bout.

[Red_Stinger]

If I'm not mistaking, the command squad vet bonus gave 5% per level.

At the moment 10% per level is too high IMO. 30% bonus in attack or defense is way too much. Soviet infantry get very powerful with these bonus, moreover they get veterancy faster and thus quickly became overwhelming even for upped grens. 

[IJoe]

OMG!
I just checked all the previous changelogs, it actually was 5% per vet (though for quite some time now I was fairly sure it was 15%  ). No matter - I humbly ask your forgiveness for that unintentional mistake of mine. As for myself, I don't think, that doubling attack\defence buffs is all that deadly (no, I'm not saying it's definitely good). At least, we should give it some trial period. After all, before I got to realize my silly mistake  I didn't find myself complaining about this change, though I did play about 10 mp and 15-20 compstomp games since the time, I installed the patch. 

[Wilson]

@Chancellor - Some interesting points. I will watch those replays at some point, I haven't played enough games with the new patch myself to get a feel for it yet.

Perhaps the reinforcement cost of the sniper squad should be put up to 200% or so, meaning that when you reinforce one man you'll be paying the same as you would for getting a new sniper squad. The advantage is in keeping the vet you've gained. Perhaps that would keep the Russian sniper unit unique, but make it less easy/cheap to keep alive. So if you countersnipe them or catch them out you will still have the same impact in MPP as from killing a US or Wehr sniper, but to get rid of the veterancy you'd have to get both men.

[Venoxxis]

You are really honest IJoe, i like that.
I didnt know as well that it was nerved to 5%, but thats sound pretty much more balanced now. Imo the sniper is the outstanding troublemaker of balanced gameplay now.

[...]
artillery barrage costs munitions 125 (it's equal to wehr's defensive arty) [...]

Do you really think that is balanced if its really equal?
- you gotta pay just once for it
- you can do it with a invisible unit
- it is non-doctrinal
- it just has a short cooldown, afterwards you can use it again and again

I really dont think there is any sign of balance left if its really equal to a doctrinal ability


Anyways, best regards, keep discussing!

[IJoe]

You are really honest IJoe, i like that.
I didnt know as well that it was nerved to 5%, but thats sound pretty much more balanced now. Imo the sniper is the outstanding troublemaker of balanced gameplay now.

[...]
artillery barrage costs munitions 125 (it's equal to wehr's defensive arty) [...]

Do you really think that is balanced if its really equal?
- you gotta pay just once for it
- you can do it with a invisible unit
- it is non-doctrinal
- it just has a short cooldown, afterwards you can use it again and again

I really dont think there is any sign of balance left if its really equal to a doctrinal ability


Anyways, best regards, keep discussing!

You can always move your troops away from the strike area, since there is a smoke warning, and, I think, the delay of the strike is greater than that of the Command squad.
The area of the strike is really small (about a bunker size), and the strike itself doesn't destroy any structure  in one barrage. Besides, correct me if I'm wrong here, sniper team does become visible for some time, when it aims the strike.
Yes, it's a one time upgrade, but sniper team are an infantry unit, easily killed by pumas (practically on the fly), chased down by motorbykes, etc.
So making such sufficient spending also binds you to keeping them alive, which is not as easy at all times.
Anyhow, the question that keeps emerging in my mind over again is: where were all these complaints before the patch 1.3? How come, that it is now, when the sniper team is actually somewhat weakened, they became OP all of a sudden?

[Joshua9]

I'm not an expert, and my thoughts on the balance are only based upon some sloppy play between my friend and myself yesterday...

While the Russian sniper is still strong, I didn't have many problems with him.  First, because russia has no mg's, except doctrinally with the emplacement, their snipers are more vulnerable to overrun...if he himself is building a mass of troops, then wehr t3, puma is ideal against a sniper tech, because the first at russia will have is inaccurate AT guns, not tank hunters. 

As to the russian vet, I'm not sure how problematic it is...but I did manage to keep my enemy's vet down for a few of those games, with an early sniper to keep the commisar off the field.  He's not very spectacular out the gate any more, and late game when there are more things that can nuke him, he may lose all that vet he has accumulated.

My biggest problem with russia right now are the SU-85's, which are horribly dominant over not just vehicles but vetted grens.  I appreciate their effectiveness against stugs, and believe they should have that significant edge, so I don't have a gripe there, but given how many tools russia has, I don't see why these things regularly obliterate gren squads.  It doesn't seem like this should be their role.  between t2 and t3, the only counter to them is paks. Their anti infantry effectiveness seems too high.  I suppose grens would have a good edge upon flanking, but I think they should be effective enough against the su-85's to affect a retrograde.

[Red_Stinger]

OMG!
I just checked all the previous changelogs, it actually was 5% per vet (though for quite some time now I was fairly sure it was 15%  ). No matter - I humbly ask your forgiveness for that unintentional mistake of mine. As for myself, I don't think, that doubling attack\defence buffs is all that deadly (no, I'm not saying it's definitely good). At least, we should give it some trial period. After all, before I got to realize my silly mistake  I didn't find myself complaining about this change, though I did play about 10 mp and 15-20 compstomp games since the time, I installed the patch. 

Waow. You just made one mistake about numbers. You dont need to apologize for that, as we are also human being (at least me  )

About the sniper team: well, I have to agree that the artillery strike is too powerful atm. remember that even if there is smoke, the very first shell come very quickly, and the first one is the deadlier one, as it pinn down those who survived to the explosion. Sure, these guys are vulnerable to "sniper-hunters", but as they cant cloak while moving , they are often operating with other troops, making them very hard to target.

[Chancellor]

This is from 1.30 Danov Man the Flak88 changelog.
Command Squad
 - Global bonus is now 10% per level
 - Veterancy 2 also gives the squad -15% received accuracy

Thats 30% at vet 3 in addition to individual vet bonuses...  I think we can do the math...

Katyshas currently hard counter infantry at a time when Wehr still highly relies on them.  It also ties into the Sniperteams too.  You're too scared to make a sniper (risking 340) to countersnipe one of theirs (risking 120ish manpower to reinforce) out of fear of:
1) shooting the spotter and instantly getting countersniped by the sniper
2) random katysha fire
If you're facing a decent player, a bike is not going to cut it.  You MUST countersnipe, and right now the balance is totally off.
The USA Callipope hard counters infantry late game (more CPs), when Wehr has other elements besides infantry to contend, and is also more expensive.  Katysha comes way too early and is relatively cheap.

Currently, it seems USSR AT capabilities are balanced, but Anti-Infantry capabilities are over the roof with its 2 man snipers, insane vet, and early katyshas.  This is why PE can still contend with USSR using its early light vehicles, but Wehr is helpless due to T1 T2 units getting hammered, and T3 is too expensive because you've basically lost the map by the time the snipers come.

This is from 1.20, the last time the Command Squad vet was touched:
Command Squad
Global infantry Veterancy Bonus provided in every Veterancy level with a choice of 'Offensive Tactics'(+5% bonus damage) or 'Defensive Tactics'(-5% received damage)
Veterancy 1: Gains barrage ability
Veterancy 2: Gains binoculars and Airborne Armour
Veterancy 3: Gains improved barrage ability
Veterancy Experience Values are 7/14/32
This was fine...I have no idea why they wanted to fxck with it.

[Analpirat]

Yeah I gotta say Katyushas are insane. They come really early and are dirt cheap, you get 3 of them for what, 1050mp and 12 pop cap? And the call-in timer also runs pretty fast so you don't have to wait long for them. With their high range the spread becomes a benefit rather than a problem because 3 of them just devastate the target area. At least they're not high on armor and hp like the calliope is, but still. I guess they could do with a slight price increase (100mp more?) and come 1 cp later?